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Rule clarification on overseas players
Discussion started by Awaywin , 21 October, 2019 05:41
Rule clarification on overseas players
Awaywin 21 October, 2019 05:41
Can anyone clarify the ruling. I have seen on a few threads the inability to select a team with Proctor and both Franks. I can not find this ruling anywhere and I am aware of examples in previous seasons where teams have fielded more than two overseas players at the same time. Could anyone clarify it would be much appreciated. Also what countries people count towards this quota.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Margin_Walker 21 October, 2019 07:11
When he was at LI Ben Franks wasn't counted as overseas as he has an English mother. Having played for NZ didn't matter.

Assume the same rules still apply

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Chris Hoddle 21 October, 2019 07:16
If that is the case we hope that applies to Owen as well :-)



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Saint Ted 21 October, 2019 09:52
Basically it comes down to the Kolpak Ruling ( See here for more info)

You also need to combine this with if a player is enabled to play under heritage and I also believe residency comes into it (could be wrong on the last one)

All this said it could all change next week anyway, the only article I can find with no paywall is from RugbyPass.

Other paywalled articles say pretty much the same thing, although reading articles on county cricket, the general gist is that the current laws will remain until the end of this season (2020 season in cricket)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/10/2019 10:00 by Saint Ted.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 10:04
WAB wonít pass cos Labour will add on CU and 2nd ref, so will be pulled. Thanks Letwin. Then GE December. Boris majority, back in January to get his deal done.


@#$%& wasting everyoneís time


The WA will eventually have framework similar to current arrangement until parliament passes primary legislation to repeal it. However we will be in the transition period so nothing changes. WA is mainly about path to final destination, ties up the divorce bill and sets a date for that to be implemented.

So basically I think nothing done until well into 2021 because deadline will be moved

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
fair_weather_fan 21 October, 2019 11:12
Quote:
Chris Hoddle
If that is the case we hope that applies to Owen as well :-)

Lol Chris, best on here for some time (Sm128)

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
stoofer 21 October, 2019 11:45
Yay! Brexit (again)! (Sm156)

'Cos we're not allowed nice things!

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 11:50
decentralised power is a wonderful thing


enough politics now

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
stoofer 21 October, 2019 13:15
...I quite like freedom of movement...,,Frictionless trade.....peace and prosperity.... truth... public services....social mobility and representative democracy. Oh and the environment, that too.

But each to their own.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 13:46
Stick to rugby please

Happy to DM if you want to hear an alternative, I assume not given the Ďtruthí statement.




Surely premier rugby and the RFU will be lobbying government to introduce a Kolpak like system, is that possible? Can we waiver work visas for those countries? Iíve no idea .... I think it would be a very good thing to do especially given a load of those guys are from poor countries and communities plus add so much to our game.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
ramseysaint 21 October, 2019 13:50
Quote:
stoofer
...I quite like freedom of movement...,,Frictionless trade.....peace and prosperity.... truth... public services....social mobility and representative democracy. Oh and the environment, that too.
But each to their own.

Well said

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 14:15
Ramsey leave it out FFS, no one cares what you or any other Saints fan thinks about the EU


I could slice through a lot of that content but itís a rugby forum


Stick to rugby

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
tedge 21 October, 2019 14:27
From a purely rugby aspect if and when we leave the EU it would be up to the UK government of the day to decide whether they want a separate agreement with quite a lot of countries to replace Kolpak. I can't see that happening so overseas players would presumably be subject to the same work visa regulations as any other foreigner, although there might be special arrangements for top quality sports people. Within that law the rugby authorities would be at liberty to set their own rules about how many may play at a time.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 14:29
big caveat there, why canít you see that happening ?

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
SaintsAsh 21 October, 2019 15:08
WP I love that you opened the Brexit debate then proceeded to say stick to rugby please.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 15:20
LOL Teds fault and he edited his post whilst typing mine! Ted you should work in politics

my reply is only about procedure and timelines not view on No Deal, Deal, Canada or whatever

for the record Iím Pro Norway which is completely off the table so who cares.. :-)

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Brackleysaint 21 October, 2019 15:38
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Ramsey leave it out FFS, no one cares what you or any other Saints fan thinks about the EU

I could slice through a lot of that content but itís a rugby forum


Stick to rugby

Pots and kettles spring to mind WP.

You introduced politics in to the thread!

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 15:46
If we are discussing Kolpak and itís effect after Brexit we should probably discuss the Brexit process and likely timelines



That does not mean we should be giving Brexit views. Weíve had over 3 years of that and Iím pretty sure no one is changing minds at this juncture or that itís relevant to Kolpak.




No one cares, use Twitter or a Facebook politics site

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Brackleysaint 21 October, 2019 16:23
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
If we are discussing Kolpak and itís effect after Brexit we should probably discuss the Brexit process and likely timelines


That does not mean we should be giving Brexit views. Weíve had over 3 years of that and Iím pretty sure no one is changing minds at this juncture or that itís relevant to Kolpak.




No one cares, use Twitter or a Facebook politics site

WP, you mentioned Labour, Letwin & Boris when no need to do so, you could have explained without their reference.
As far as Kolpak goes it was a EU ruling that allowed citizens of countries that have signed 'European Union Association Agreements' the same rights of freedom of employment & movement within the EU as EU citizens.
Free movement will end December 2020 and as we will no longer be in the EU then Kolpak will be irrelevant.
The chances of a similar agreement with the countries included being negotiated before the end of 2020 will be slim to zero and these players will have to meet the entry criteria of as any other overseas player.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
TheGent 21 October, 2019 16:37
WP you're hilarious.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Saint Stokey 21 October, 2019 16:41
So how many 'foreign' players can we have on the pitch at one time? Is it 2 and do the Frank's brothers qualify as EU through a parent?

I mean right now, ignoring any Brexit deals, no deals or any other political outcome.

Could we have both Franks and Proctor in the same side?

On another note, if not through parentage, could Ben Franks be eligible through residency?

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 17:05
Apparently yes both qualify through grandparent

So only Proctor ...

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Brackleysaint 21 October, 2019 17:06
Quote:
Saint Stokey
So how many 'foreign' players can we have on the pitch at one time? Is it 2 and do the Frank's brothers qualify as EU through a parent?
I mean right now, ignoring any Brexit deals, no deals or any other political outcome.

Could we have both Franks and Proctor in the same side?

On another note, if not through parentage, could Ben Franks be eligible through residency?

I believe that if you have an English parent or grandparent then you are not classed as 'foreign '

With regards to residency i think the qualifying period is 5 years.

From the Premiership Rugby Website if it helps?

The legal definition of foreign players is different to one of non-English players.

Bosman and Kolpak

The Bosman ruling reinforced the Treaty of Rome in a sporting context, allowing the free movement of EU national workers around other EU countries. This effectively means any EU national has the same rights as any 'local' worker and therefore cannot be defined as a foreigner.

Premiership rules
The rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time, at all periods during the season.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
tedge 21 October, 2019 17:08
and this is an extract from the Premiership competition regulations as stipulated by the RFU:

ďForeign PlayerĒ is a person who does not qualify as a Non-Foreign Player. A
Non-Foreign Player is a person who, at the point that he is
included in the Match Squad:
(a) can prove to the satisfaction of the RFU that he is entitled to
the rights granted under Title IV, Article 45 of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) or under the
European Economic Area or of a state with which the European
Community has entered into an agreement that includes directly
effective provisions conferring equivalent rights of nondiscrimination against that stateís nationals within the European
Union;
Note: A passport of a member state of the European Community
will normally be accepted as evidence that a player is a NonForeign Player


(b) can prove to the satisfaction of the RFU that pursuant to
World Rugby Regulation 8.1 he is eligible to play for the senior
fifteen-a-side National Representative Team, the next senior
fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the senior
National Representative Sevens Team (as defined in World
Rugby regulations) of a Rugby Union in membership of the
European Union/European Economic Area; or
(c) has been selected for the England Senior XV, Next Senior
XV or U20 XV or Englandís National VII.

Make what you will of it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/10/2019 17:11 by tedge.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 17:27
Where does the Ďonly 2 non Europeaní rule come from? Why was it brought in? Canít see many other professions where discriminating by nationality would be allowed (after visa qualifying etc)

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Saint Ted 21 October, 2019 17:51
I thought the whole thing stemmed from football to be honest, got absolutely no proof of that btw, just a vague memory.

Also, back to your former point, don't blame me, I thought I was smart enough to edit my post before anyone had read it! It was the middle of the morning, people should have been working!

(For what it's worth my original post was slightly dumb thinking even the mention of the word Brexit would cause anything other than an argument, I say this as someone who has absolutely zero interest in it or politics, there are people in amazonian tribes that have never heard of the uk that care more than I do)

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
white lion 21 October, 2019 18:15
By 'decentralised power' I assume WP is advocating anarchy!

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 19:17
who knows destination but IMHO this is basically the underling reason why people are voting/acting as they are ... eg Scots, Catalans, Brits, Hong Kong, US (state going against federal govt over drugs), various 'populist' european movements etc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/10/2019 19:20 by Wilson Pickett.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 19:36
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Where does the Ďonly 2 non Europeaní rule come from? Why was it brought in? Canít see many other professions where discriminating by nationality would be allowed (after visa qualifying etc)



any ideas on this ?

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
stoofer 21 October, 2019 20:25
This is clearly not the forum, but,

Wilson - really! You are conflating a lot of disparate phenomenon there. HK, Brexit and Scottish Nationalism? Seriously?

Brexit is not that hard to fathom. Itís just a classic bait and switch after a decade of self-imposed austerity that was itself based on an objective lie.

It promised to solve everyoneís problems and blamed them all on a convenient Ďforeigní scapegoat. That it has now become a pretext for deregulation, rolling back environmental protections and the further transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest betrays the agenda of those now leading it.

As for where such bone-headed, authoritarian, nationalist projects end? Well fairly recent history has quite a lot to say about that if you look.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Saint Ted 21 October, 2019 21:20
I seem to have lost the ability to close threads, leave the politics out of it. It's not relevant and only leads to arguments where no one really comes out the winner

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Wilson Pickett 21 October, 2019 22:09
Remoaners gonna Remoan Ted

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
stoofer 22 October, 2019 06:16
Apologies Mods - No more politics from me.

Itís just difficult to allow such juvenile nonsense to pass unremarked.

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Happywifehappylife 22 October, 2019 13:00
Quote:
Saint Ted
I seem to have lost the ability to close threads

'Close this thread' button under the first post by 'Awaywin' fella

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
Saint Ted 22 October, 2019 13:30
I could not see that for looking! Thanks!

Re: Rule clarification on overseas players
SaintsDuncan 22 October, 2019 18:01
Quote:
Saint Ted
I could not see that for looking! Thanks!

Go hit it the Ted


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