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A polite request re Sarries
Discussion started by Saint Ted , 05 November, 2019 11:17
A polite request re Sarries
Saint Ted 05 November, 2019 11:17
Obvioulsy todays news is massive, it's confirmed what a lot of people have been thinking for a long time.

However with this news, supporters will be hurting, a 35 point deduction is huge, pretty much guarantees no top level European rugby for next season.

Can I politely remind people that this is not the fans fault, they will be hurt by this, as such can we try and avoid going over to their board and having a pop, we don't like it when we've had players on the wrong side of things and people come to us.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Harpole Saint 05 November, 2019 11:20
Would they get HC rugby If they win it this year?

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Abington Adam 05 November, 2019 11:24
A fair point Ted, and their fans have been cheated as well. I'd be distraught if Saints had been caught doing this at a time of unparalleled success.



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Walks11 05 November, 2019 11:25
I would hope none of us would be that vindictive as to do that, rugby values and all that.. not the fans fault in any way

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint For Life 05 November, 2019 11:26
Institutional cheating over at least the last 3 years - championships won through cheating , so called fantastic academy built on a cheating ethos,etc etc . Ted nice plea - but will be completely ignored ( and I don’t blame the posters who will be putting the boot in ) .

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Ted 05 November, 2019 11:26
Quote:
Harpole Saint
Would they get HC rugby If they win it this year?

Did not think of that!

They won't qualify through the league

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Ted 05 November, 2019 11:30
Quote:
Saint For Life
Institutional cheating over at least the last 3 years - championships won through cheating , so called fantastic academy built on a cheating ethos,etc etc . Ted nice plea - but will be completely ignored ( and I don’t blame the posters who will be putting the boot in ) .

People will stick the boot in, that's up to them, I try to live by one rule and that is 'Don't be a dick', in my eyes kicking someone when they are down goes against that. If the above can make a few people think twice before doing it, then thats a job done in my opinion

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Wilson Pickett 05 November, 2019 11:32
Good post Ted. Most are very nice folk who have ridden the wave.


Gruel from now on. The party is over.



Last year they got 78 points. Bottom was 31.... interesting



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 11:33 by Wilson Pickett.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
serious_saint 05 November, 2019 11:36
"Last year they got 78 points. Bottom was 31.... interesting"

Agreed.....Tigers are not safe yet!!

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Stokey 05 November, 2019 11:40
So Sarries have been fined for the past 3 seasons.

Can i make a polite request that our games during these seasons, against a side fielding an unfair advantage are declared invalid and the hundreds of points conceded be stricken from the record?*

Re: A polite request re Sarries
OldPete 05 November, 2019 11:55
Ted is right - its a sad day for rugby not just for Saracens and their supporters. So whatever resentment has built up amongst the rest of us over several years of " Institutional cheating " we should remember that it isn't the players or the fans who are guilty.

Personally I am just quietly satisfied that last the authorities have had the testicular fortitude to act.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Statesman 05 November, 2019 11:59
I can't - all of my posts on their site on this subject are immediately deleted!

Have you read the club statement from Sarries? - still in denial - very very sad!

No issues with Sarries supporters nor FWIW their players.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
tedge 05 November, 2019 11:59
Quote:
Saint Ted
Quote:
Saint For Life
Institutional cheating over at least the last 3 years - championships won through cheating , so called fantastic academy built on a cheating ethos,etc etc . Ted nice plea - but will be completely ignored ( and I don’t blame the posters who will be putting the boot in ) .

People will stick the boot in, that's up to them, I try to live by one rule and that is 'Don't be a dick', in my eyes kicking someone when they are down goes against that. If the above can make a few people think twice before doing it, then thats a job done in my opinion

Ted I hope most people will behave as reasonably as you hope and not adopt the attitude expressed above

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saintsby 05 November, 2019 12:00
Good sense and good posts above from St Ted WP and the sage words of Old Pete lets not blame the suporters lets have some class.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 12:11 by Saintsby.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
SaintRich 05 November, 2019 12:06
Quote:
OldPete
Ted is right - its a sad day for rugby not just for Saracens and their supporters. So whatever resentment has built up amongst the rest of us over several years of " Institutional cheating " we should remember that it isn't the players or the fans who are guilty.
Personally I am just quietly satisfied that last the authorities have had the testicular fortitude to act.

I'm sorry but I'm really not sure I am on board with this whole 'not the players fault' nonsense.

Did the players enter into external investment opportunities that they probably knew were at the best grey areas? Did they have other financial benefits or agreements that have remained undisclosed and they were likely aware were not being declared as salary for the purposes of the cap?
Did experienced International players with agents and knowledge of the market value of their contracts REALLY not question quite how their club was capable of not only retaining them but going out and bringing in further quality, EVEN when it is clear that other clubs were not able to do the same?

I'm not saying the players need to be hung, drawn and quartered clearly, and the responsibility for this is primarily with the ownership and senior management of the club. It is however incredibly naive in my view to absolve players of any knowledge or crumb of responsibility in something we now know spanned over 3 seasons.

I feel for the Saracens fans, but I'm afraid the players are more complicit than many are suggesting currently.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Abington Adam 05 November, 2019 12:17
It is unequivocally not the fault of ALL the Saracens players, however I completely agree with Rich . We keep hearing about how clever and educated some of these top Sarries players are: they're doing MBA's and leadership degrees etc, yet when these infringements are revealed we're suddenly expected to believe that they were completely innocent parties when entering into highly unorthodox transactions to inflate their income. I accept that the case against the players is yet to be proven, but their innocence is not a given in this.



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
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EMRU Referee

Re: A polite request re Sarries
OldPete 05 November, 2019 12:18
Re the players - I do wonder just how many of us as young men would have had the sagacity to say to an employer " sorry Id rather not accept that benefit etc seems a bit dodgy to Me "

The blame lies at the top - as it nearly always does when in any organisation the employees are involved in practices that are encouraged and sanctioned by the boss.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
tedge 05 November, 2019 12:26
Quote:
OldPete
Re the players - I do wonder just how many of us as young men would have had the sagacity to say to an employer " sorry Id rather not accept that benefit etc seems a bit dodgy to Me "
The blame lies at the top - as it nearly always does when in any organisation the employees are involved in practices that are encouraged and sanctioned by the boss.

In this instance I agree with OP. The salary cap rules are rules for the payers of salaries, not the recipients and even though players may have been aware I doubt they can be held accountable

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint For Life 05 November, 2019 12:36
Quote:
tedge
Quote:
Saint Ted
Quote:
Saint For Life
Institutional cheating over at least the last 3 years - championships won through cheating , so called fantastic academy built on a cheating ethos,etc etc . Ted nice plea - but will be completely ignored ( and I don’t blame the posters who will be putting the boot in ) .

People will stick the boot in, that's up to them, I try to live by one rule and that is 'Don't be a dick', in my eyes kicking someone when they are down goes against that. If the above can make a few people think twice before doing it, then thats a job done in my opinion

Ted I hope most people will behave as reasonably as you hope and not adopt the attitude expressed above

Just to make it clear - this is NOT my attitude . I have zero interest in posting on the Wolfpack ( or the now Cheetah adopted ) website . The kicking as I fully expected re social media in today’s climate has already started, and looking at some of the posts from some saracens fans over the years there are individuals on their site who propably deserve it .

Re: A polite request re Sarries
SaintRich 05 November, 2019 12:38
I agree primary responsibility rests with the management, and I also understand it would be very difficult as a player to turn down additional payments as part of your salary package. As such of course there won't be sanctions against the players... however If I am being asked to show sympathy to the Saracens players on this back of this news then I can unequivocally say that I will not.

My sympathy resides with the players of other clubs, who have most likely missed out on both personal and team accolades and success as a result of what was happening at Saracens. Players that haven't been involved in the circumventing of agreed rules and as such won't have been paid as handsomely. These are the players I feel for, not those at Saracens that were knowingly part of this.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Wilson Pickett 05 November, 2019 12:44
There is a difference between blaming players for the cap breach and feeling sorry for them.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Duckonstilts 05 November, 2019 12:44
Some of the players will have known and been complicit but we cant know who. So for the others who are innocent I will treat them all as victims for now.

The fans who almost all are decent folk are also victims and should be supported. Once the dust has settled we can gently remind them forever about it down the pub :-)

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Matthew 05 November, 2019 12:50
Quote:
Saint Stokey
So Sarries have been fined for the past 3 seasons.
Can i make a polite request that our games during these seasons, against a side fielding an unfair advantage are declared invalid and the hundreds of points conceded be stricken from the record?*

I like your thinking (Sm42)



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Re: A polite request re Sarries
Awaywin 05 November, 2019 12:51
I feel that the Sarries fans should feel very fortunate. In terms of the rugby penalty most are predicting on previous season that the 35 points will see them finish around 10th position. Missing out on one season of Heineken Cup rugby (unless you can qualify through winning it) and unable to compete in the playoffs this season. That seems a very small price to pay for winning 2 titles.

If you look at when we won the title how we dropped off before rebuilding, it would seem like a normal thing a fan would endure.

I am unsure of the impact of the financial penalty on the club or ownership which could prove far reaching.

What I am interested to see is how this will galvanise the team and what reaction they will have on the field. It will be an interesting balance for the squad to secure enough points to stay up and finish as high as possible and resting the world cup returnees for the European campaign which is likely their only change for success.

Personally I don't feel that this is a 'heavy handed' punishment and relegation and a rescinding of the titles won whilst in breach of the cap would be suitable. The fans of the 11 other clubs have also been cheated in all of this.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Wilson Pickett 05 November, 2019 12:58
AwayWin I am afraid I do not think I agree on this....

If Wray can't fiddle the cap to get the best squad, why will he bother? What is the upside? He will just have an average club with an average squad and the 2nd lowest attendance in the league. They have nothing organic. Everything has been built on rugby success. We have the town, the fans, the ground etc etc

I think this is a turning point and I do not see Saracens being a major force until salary caps or rules change, which i don't see happening for a while. How will they attract players for next season? Why would McCall stay? I think this could be a house of cards moment....

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Walks11 05 November, 2019 13:04
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
AwayWin I am afraid I do not think I agree on this....
If Wray can't fiddle the cap to get the best squad, why will he bother? What is the upside? He will just have an average club with an average squad and the 2nd lowest attendance in the league. They have nothing organic. Everything has been built on rugby success. We have the town, the fans, the ground etc etc

I think this is a turning point and I do not see Saracens being a major force until salary caps or rules change, which i don't see happening for a while. How will they attract players for next season? Why would McCall stay? I think this could be a house of cards moment....

was thinking the same thing Wilson.. can't happen people will cry, but agree with the points you made it could quite easily end up in a very swift downward spiral. Guess it will depend on Wray's appetite for a fight and how much further he is prepared to throwaway on legal battles. Irrespective of where the sanctions end up as I suspect it wont be 35 points he will have to trim squad and with that it becomes more competitive and they become a contender rather than at the top looking to be shot down. interesting times

Re: A polite request re Sarries
St Saltaire 05 November, 2019 13:15
Glad that what we’ve all suspected for a long time - nearer 10 years than 3 - has finally Ben confirmed.
I think that they should be stripped of the titles too as they were unfairly won.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Neil-H 05 November, 2019 13:21
Wilson agree to and Id add as I have said elsewhere, its not really the financial fine that's going to hurt them, probably not even the -35 points, they will probably stay up and have no top flight European rugby.... but the impact that they have a squad that has to get inline with the salary cap... where payments one off, or part of their contracts?? big implications there?

Whose out of contract at the end of the year? will it be renews, as letting player go during contracts means they need to pay them off, but this payment is included in the salary cap1 (remember when they gave a list of about 12 players they letting go some years back, then found out the pay offs where in salary cap and had to back pedal???

Managing the squad for next season will be a nightmare!... it will only be in a few years time when all contracts ended or renewed will it settle?

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Neil-H 05 November, 2019 13:21
BTW - they have Gloucester away this weekend!!!!

Sure they will get a warm welcome there......

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Stokey 05 November, 2019 13:28
If you look at the teams that Sarries have put out in the last 3 weeks, they look to be the sort of side that most clubs could hope to put out.

The side that we played had Goode, Lozowski, Lamositele, Skelton and Spencer. Thats 5 full internationals, plus the likes of Isiekwe, Clark, Earl and Wray that either have been or could easily soon be around the international scene. That's not a bad side. It certainly a stronger XV that a lot of other Premiership clubs are able to field.

They should be able to compete in the league with a team of that calibre, maybe not win 3 titles in 4 years, but certainly compete for top 6, maybe top 4.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Stokey 05 November, 2019 13:40
Quote:
Neil-H

Whose out of contract at the end of the year? will it be renews, as letting player go during contracts means they need to pay them off, but this payment is included in the salary cap1 (remember when they gave a list of about 12 players they letting go some years back, then found out the pay offs where in salary cap and had to back pedal???

In football, you hear of teams releasing players to other clubs but subsidising the salary. Personally, in an attempt to get Sarries back under the Cap, this should be allowed for the length of the remaining contract and not included in the Cap. This way, Sarries will be able to get down below the Cap and the players are not short changed.

lets say Maro Itoje had to be released, he had 2 more years on his, what has been calculated to be £500,000 per annum salary. It seems unfair for Sarries to have to release Maro, pay him the £1m remaining in his contract and have this come from the Cap. They're already at risk of relegation and having to lose some great players. Having a reduced Cap seems to be compounding the punishment beyond fairness.

I would suggest that, Saints for example, take on the remaining 2 year contract. We come to an agreement to continue Maro's current contract but it is subsidised by Sarries. Saints would have to be able to show that we could afford the full contract within our Cap but Sarries pay Saints a percentage of the salary. This shouldn't be included as part of Saracens Cap but mean that they could actually get within the limits, would mean that Maro is not financially penalised and has a club to play at. Saints also get a great player who normally wouldn't be available.

At the end of the 2 years, Sarries will have paid off their portion of debt to the player and the Player becomes free to negotiate contracts.



I guess I could have summed this up a simply a subsidised loan agreement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 13:41 by Saint Stokey.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Ted 05 November, 2019 14:15
They will probably need to off load either a bunch of young guys or two big names.

This is just maths based on the figures we have....

The fine is £5360272.31.

That's based on overspend spread over 3 seasons. So just for the sake of making this easier, we will divide that by 3, giving a fine of £1786757.44 per season

As I read the rules, you get charge 50p per £1 overspend for the first £50k over the salary cap, so £25,000 (so £50k overspend)
you get charged £1 for every £1 for the next £150,000, so £150,000 (£150K overspend)
you get charged £3 for every £1 over that £1,611757.43 (£537,252.48 overspend)

So that gives us a total overspend of £712,252.48 per season

The other way of looking at it is that if could just be £3 per £1 based on the fact they had overspent by more than £150,000

That gives us an over spend of £595, 585 per season

Either way, they could get back under the cap by only losing 2 of there top end senior players, maybe even just one.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Wilson Pickett 05 November, 2019 14:19
If I was a Saracens England player I would 100% take a 2 year sabbatical in France. Maro or Billy would earn EUR1m, play every other week, and no stress about internationals.

return in 2 years when England likely have a new coach anyway

Re: A polite request re Sarries
white lion 05 November, 2019 14:22
For sale: Red fez, no longer required.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Wilson Pickett 05 November, 2019 14:24
“Just like that.... “

Re: A polite request re Sarries
fair_weather_fan 05 November, 2019 14:29
I can't see us taking on a player to help a cheating club. They can sort their own mess out.

I don't feel very forgiving but I'm taking Tedge advice and staying off their fans. But if any come here to try and defend St Nigel......

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Walks11 05 November, 2019 14:39
Quote:
Saint Stokey
If you look at the teams that Sarries have put out in the last 3 weeks, they look to be the sort of side that most clubs could hope to put out.
The side that we played had Goode, Lozowski, Lamositele, Skelton and Spencer. Thats 5 full internationals, plus the likes of Isiekwe, Clark, Earl and Wray that either have been or could easily soon be around the international scene. That's not a bad side. It certainly a stronger XV that a lot of other Premiership clubs are able to field.

They should be able to compete in the league with a team of that calibre, maybe not win 3 titles in 4 years, but certainly compete for top 6, maybe top 4.

Isiekwe & Clark both internationals and Earl a future international, so 7 internationals and some bloody good kids

Re: A polite request re Sarries
MarchingIn 05 November, 2019 14:51
They are going to get some mockery and as long as it doesn't cross the line, so what?

When you paid a hard earned £30-£60 to watch Saints get pulverised, you were the person being cheated, and moneybags Nigel Wray & co were smirking at you.

As Nigel Owens likes to remind us, Rugby isn't football, there is no place for the kind of nastiness that goes on in football, but a bit of a chuckle at the cheats expense? Hell yeah. No different to the "Taxi for Jim" / "Taxi for Cockers" stuff going back and forth between us and the Tigers board a few years back really is it?

Roll with it.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
SaintRich 05 November, 2019 15:05
Quote:
MarchingIn
They are going to get some mockery and as long as it doesn't cross the line, so what?
When you paid a hard earned £30-£60 to watch Saints get pulverised, you were the person being cheated, and moneybags Nigel Wray & co were smirking at you.

As Nigel Owens likes to remind us, Rugby isn't football, there is no place for the kind of nastiness that goes on in football, but a bit of a chuckle at the cheats expense? Hell yeah. No different to the "Taxi for Jim" / "Taxi for Cockers" stuff going back and forth between us and the Tigers board a few years back really is it?

Roll with it.

Nail hit firmly on the head here for me. I am surprised by the sudden rush to defend and console when it is the fans and players of other clubs that have been cheated out of a level playing field over the last few years.

We all speculated and suggested it was happening and the scale and ferocity of this punishment would indicate to me that this is not the first transgression. Saracens players and fans have experienced unprecedented success in the Premiership over the last 5 odd years, which has come at the clear expense of other teams attempting to adhere to an agreed set of rules, I will not be shedding any tears for them.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Monte 05 November, 2019 15:26
They are playing in front of the Shed on Sat so that should allow them to hear it how it is.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
tedge 05 November, 2019 15:33
Are we sure that no other club has broken the rules ?

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Stilo 05 November, 2019 16:02
Olympic medals are taken away from those found to have cheated at a later date, perhaps all of Sarries championships in the periods should be classed as null and void

Re: A polite request re Sarries
tedge 05 November, 2019 16:09
Quote:
Stilo
Olympic medals are taken away from those found to have cheated at a later date, perhaps all of Sarries championships in the periods should be classed as null and void

Not like for like - the players haven't cheated

Re: A polite request re Sarries
SaintRich 05 November, 2019 16:14
Quote:
tedge
Quote:
Stilo
Olympic medals are taken away from those found to have cheated at a later date, perhaps all of Sarries championships in the periods should be classed as null and void

Not like for like - the players haven't cheated

Really? If they've accepted benefit in kind payments in order to have a reduced salary declared under the cap and thus still receiving the same overall amount but allowing their club to strengthen unfairly in comparison to other clubs - are they not complicit in the act of cheating?

I know that's a big if but I'm fairly confident any suggestion that some if not most of the Saracens players didn't know what the club was doing with them was in contradiction of the laws and spirit of fair play the league is supposed to be undertaken in, would be nonsense quite frankly.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Ted 05 November, 2019 16:22
Well no, because they were told, and Saracens still maintain, that the payments weren't cheating the salary cap.

Now had, lets say Itoje, gone up to Wray and said, 'Nige, found a way of getting round the cap, why don't you whack £1m into this company with me' then they are complicit.

This is why it's Saracens that have been fined, not individual players, the onus can not be on the player, what he earns is his concern and nobody elses, nor need he be concerned with what anybody else earns.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
tedge 05 November, 2019 16:22
I was referring to the comparison with Olympic athletes who were punished for drug taking, which had a positive impact on their performance. Saracens players have not cheated in that sense - they have won things because they performed better than the others - it was the assembly of top quality players by cheating management that has been found out.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Walks11 05 November, 2019 16:29
Quote:
tedge
Are we sure that no other club has broken the rules ?
I would say most definitely others have either by accident or otherwise

Re: A polite request re Sarries
fair_weather_fan 05 November, 2019 16:41
From walks11 (i messed up here, lol)

Quote:
tedge
Are we sure that no other club has broken the rules ?

'I would say most definitely others have either by accident or otherwise'


There was a lot of talk about this around the time that Bath also started accumulating a suspiciously talented squad. But that all stopped about 3 years ago at the time of the last investigation. Many complained then that the whole thing had been swept under the carpet. Probably a wipe the slate clean agreement was made, in exchange for no further breaches. I suspect the original agreement wasn't watertight, we are pretty sure that Saints exploited loopholes in the earlier agreements too, and Tigers.

But if its the equivalent of one player, then only the thin end of the wedge has been found. Look at the squad, all those internationals, with Elliott Daly and more extraordinaily, Rhys Carre from Wales is coming too.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Stokey 05 November, 2019 16:43
The stars on Sarries kits...

is it 1 star for every year they cheated?

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Tigersfan1 05 November, 2019 16:48
Quote:
Olympic medals are taken away from those found to have cheated at a later date, perhaps all of Sarries championships in the periods should be classed as null and void

I agree. An Olympic athlete later found to have been on drugs has the title taken away because they had gained unfair advantage outside of the rules. Exactly the same here - different way of gaining an advantage, but the club winning the trophies did so whilst having unfair and outside the rules advantage.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saint Stokey 05 November, 2019 16:52
What is they always say? Win as a team, lose as a team

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Abington Adam 05 November, 2019 16:58
Quote:
Tigersfan1
Quote:
Olympic medals are taken away from those found to have cheated at a later date, perhaps all of Sarries championships in the periods should be classed as null and void

I agree. An Olympic athlete later found to have been on drugs has the title taken away because they had gained unfair advantage outside of the rules. Exactly the same here - different way of gaining an advantage, but the club winning the trophies did so whilst having unfair and outside the rules advantage.

Correct, there's a reason why they call it "financial doping".



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Stockers 05 November, 2019 17:14
Is this rugby’s Lance Armstrong moment?

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Saintsby 05 November, 2019 17:35
Stockers sadly I think it is and our once great game with all its values of sportsmanship, fellowship and all the things we cherish become tarnished 'dirty' and success buy-able it really does need this sanction to be upheld because if not my ST is toast and I'll watch Brackley first seconds thirds and ladies team to remind me what rugby should be about. Hey ho! wait till CVC get a true hold. No winners here Cheers Nigel! thanks for all the pizzas

Re: A polite request re Sarries
Deesaint 05 November, 2019 17:54
Quote:
Saint Ted
Well no, because they were told, and Saracens still maintain, that the payments weren't cheating the salary cap.
Now had, lets say Itoje, gone up to Wray and said, 'Nige, found a way of getting round the cap, why don't you whack £1m into this company with me' then they are complicit.

This is why it's Saracens that have been fined, not individual players, the onus can not be on the player, what he earns is his concern and nobody elses, nor need he be concerned with what anybody else earns.

Good points
The way I read the judgement revolves around the investment into separate companies for a few players
The ruling says that the investments should have been declared under the salary cap
They where not
By including the investments the salary cap was breached and the club was penalised
An appeal is pending

If I have it right I’m not sure how players need to be released ,

The loss going forward will be to either wind up those companies or sell them

Re: A polite request re Sarries
MarchingIn 05 November, 2019 17:55
Quote:
Stockers
Is this rugby’s Lance Armstrong moment?

When Tyler Hamilton's book was published telling all, there were many who said "Lance was cheating but so was everyone else"

Head to Twitter right now, and you'll find a procession of Saracens fans claiming the club did nothing wrong, that European rugby isn't a level playing field with the Irish & French and they managed to win it for England, that all clubs should be allowed to do the same as Nigel (so effectively, not have a cap at all) and are jealous etc... etc...

It is very similar indeed & honestly having spent half an hour reading it, I have even more anger at Saracens. I hope the punishment is upheld and furthermore, I more than ever want to see financial stability rules brought in to force every club to balance the books every 3 years or something. I am sick of them and their owner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 18:07 by MarchingIn.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
PembsSaint 05 November, 2019 18:10
Quote:
OldPete
Re the players - I do wonder just how many of us as young men would have had the sagacity to say to an employer " sorry Id rather not accept that benefit etc seems a bit dodgy to Me "
The blame lies at the top - as it nearly always does when in any organisation the employees are involved in practices that are encouraged and sanctioned by the boss.

I completely agree OldPete.
I hope we can quickly draw a line in the sand and start focusing on rugby matters again

Re: A polite request re Sarries
195Rich 05 November, 2019 18:36
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
AwayWin I am afraid I do not think I agree on this....
If Wray can't fiddle the cap to get the best squad, why will he bother? What is the upside? He will just have an average club with an average squad and the 2nd lowest attendance in the league. They have nothing organic. Everything has been built on rugby success. We have the town, the fans, the ground etc etc

I think this is a turning point and I do not see Saracens being a major force until salary caps or rules change, which i don't see happening for a while. How will they attract players for next season? Why would McCall stay? I think this could be a house of cards moment....

More to the point how will they honour the contracts already agreed with current players, and those poised to join, without breaking the salary cap again?

Re: A polite request re Sarries
smitferbrainz 05 November, 2019 18:58
As to the actual subject of this thread. Many “opposition” supporters are posting on the various threads on their site on this subject. However, the vast majority are being supportive to their fans feelings on the subject generally. I’ve seen very few posts that could be classified as “sticking the boot in”, on the contrary most posters clearly sympathise with the supporters viewpoint. There’s a general lack of sympathy for the club itself but the sensitivities of their supporters are generally being respected.

Re: A polite request re Sarries
BACK TO BLACK 05 November, 2019 19:35
Quote:
Saint Ted
Obvioulsy todays news is massive, it's confirmed what a lot of people have been thinking for a long time.
However with this news, supporters will be hurting, a 35 point deduction is huge, pretty much guarantees no top level European rugby for next season.

Can I politely remind people that this is not the fans fault, they will be hurt by this, as such can we try and avoid going over to their board and having a pop, we don't like it when we've had players on the wrong side of things and people come to us.

Saracen in peace (and distress) There's been some very supportive posts from you guys in particular and let me tell you it's a ray of light in a pretty gloomy place. I've supported Saracens for 20+ years and this feels like a relationship, actually a marriage (as most don't last that long!) breaking down. It's not the fans fault as you have said and every club has their idiots as do we but on the whole rugby fans are a family who love the game.

If you want to see how fair you have been take a look at the BBC HYS posts on the subject. We are criminals who should be locked up for supporting a cheating club. I remember very clearly when Saracens fortunes (no pun intended) began to shift and I challenge anybody to think hmmm this is odd as you r club enjoys success.

Trouble is, this hasn't just damaged Saracens & their fans it's a stain on the whole English game. I've been to every final and Exeter fans have a case for wondering why 2 x Prem Cups aren't theirs and it may happen. The nice thing is that you beat us to win the Prem so I feel relaxed about that.

Good luck for the rest of the season Saints fans and we'll see you at FG and AzP for a few beers!

Re: A polite request re Sarries
smitferbrainz 05 November, 2019 19:38
Quote:
BACK TO BLACK
Quote:
Saint Ted
Obvioulsy todays news is massive, it's confirmed what a lot of people have been thinking for a long time.
However with this news, supporters will be hurting, a 35 point deduction is huge, pretty much guarantees no top level European rugby for next season.

Can I politely remind people that this is not the fans fault, they will be hurt by this, as such can we try and avoid going over to their board and having a pop, we don't like it when we've had players on the wrong side of things and people come to us.

Saracen in peace (and distress) There's been some very supportive posts from you guys in particular and let me tell you it's a ray of light in a pretty gloomy place. I've supported Saracens for 20+ years and this feels like a relationship, actually a marriage (as most don't last that long!) breaking down. It's not the fans fault as you have said and every club has their idiots as do we but on the whole rugby fans are a family who love the game.

If you want to see how fair you have been take a look at the BBC HYS posts on the subject. We are criminals who should be locked up for supporting a cheating club. I remember very clearly when Saracens fortunes (no pun intended) began to shift and I challenge anybody to think hmmm this is odd as you r club enjoys success.

Trouble is, this hasn't just damaged Saracens & their fans it's a stain on the whole English game. I've been to every final and Exeter fans have a case for wondering why 2 x Prem Cups aren't theirs and it may happen. The nice thing is that you beat us to win the Prem so I feel relaxed about that.

Good luck for the rest of the season Saints fans and we'll see you at FG and AzP for a few beers!

Great post!

Re: A polite request re Sarries
fair_weather_fan 05 November, 2019 21:32
Back to black, the irony there is it may have been the loss to us that triggered the whole sad process. Big of you to concede the two titles but it affects every match the club played over the last three seasons and continues into this one.


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