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Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Discussion started by Saintsby , 09 November, 2019 17:08
Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Saintsby 09 November, 2019 17:08
Oh dear! and I thought consensus was our scrum had, if not improved then 'steadied' was the verdict So over to you Mr Ferguson et al.
Still 3 from 4 ain't at all bad and I am confident of further improvement in that area after all an arm wrestle in the mud was always going to be tough.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
tedge 09 November, 2019 17:14
We're still top of the league (for the present) !

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Longers 09 November, 2019 17:16
I got the impression that we were still in it until the last 20ish(?) but then Bath's pack woke up and took us apart.

Up until that point, we had left a number of points on the pitch and also lacked our early season accuracy leading to even fewer points than we might have earned

Hey ho move on!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2019 17:17 by Longers.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
andysaint 09 November, 2019 17:17
Oh well canít win them all. Were we street wise in that last period? Gave up a lot of time and two men trying to defend. After Bristol at home last year would we have been better off sacrificing a try early on and trying to come back with 15 or 14. We seem to have left ourselves too much to do too late to get anything.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Saintfanh 09 November, 2019 17:32
Quote:
andysaint
Oh well canít win them all. Were we street wise in that last period? Gave up a lot of time and two men trying to defend. After Bristol at home last year would we have been better off sacrificing a try early on and trying to come back with 15 or 14. We seem to have left ourselves too much to do too late to get anything.

Agree it was very reminiscent of the Bristol game.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
ajack 09 November, 2019 17:49
Bad weather and our first test against a better pack was always going to be a big ask. Strange how those other skills let you down when you need them most but true in many sports. Still a great start to the season and maybe a bit of a bump back down to earth will do us more good than harm in the long run.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
LaurieK 09 November, 2019 18:13
When we started the season we knew we would have poor days and today was a predictable one. Good moves in the first half but precision went missing very quickly. Huge parts of the game with no points. Even in the first half we started getting into an arm wrestle and Bath loved it. Turning point was the red card. It spurred them on and once the crowd got its voice it was all over.
Great run by Tom C in the second half but again no finish by the team.
So, heavy Bath pack, heavy pitch, bad execution, poor tactics. But this team will learn. COYS.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
abendanon-anon-anon 09 November, 2019 18:27
Agree with all of the above. We have a big pack, but all very young and hungry so didn't tire despite the boggy pitch
We needed that win more than you. One for the purists but edge of the seat stuff at the game itself.
All the best for Euros next week

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Walks11 09 November, 2019 18:42
bit like England it seems, no scrum no win!.. sounds like we had our moments and were on top until the red card which seemed to galvanise Bath and their supporters. Seems like this could still be our Achilles heel and not helped with a boggy pitch.

I do find the Bath support very irritating, boo at the slightest decision that goes against them, like listening to a pantomime at times. The booing for Graysons kick at goal and cheering the resulting miss was poor IMO. I was told by a Bathite this evening that it was because our winger had feigned injury to get Brew sent off. I did point out it was our FB and he played no further part in the game. and his response was he went off because he was embarrassed!.. I give up

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
PembsSaint 09 November, 2019 19:05
Shame they canít spend some of their CVC money on decent drainage/grounds men!
Still, canít argue with the pack dominance - disappointing but Iíd take the odd lost arm wrestle on a soaked pitch for the style of exciting rugby we are seeing more often than not

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
BathMatt53 09 November, 2019 19:11
Quote:
PembsSaint
Shame they canít spend some of their CVC money on decent drainage/grounds men!
Still, canít argue with the pack dominance - disappointing but Iíd take the odd lost arm wrestle on a soaked pitch for the style of exciting rugby we are seeing more often than not

About to put in the planning application for the £50+ million new stadium (with hybrid pitch) so the CVC money will be spent on that. It was a forward dominated game today but hopefully with Watson, Cockanasiga etc back we should be able to play a bit wider.

All the best for the rest of the season.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
MarchingIn 09 November, 2019 19:48
I understand we now rotate properly and we also don't need to win every game, but it sounds like we got well and truly bossed at the scrum and maul, so I have to question the selection logic a bit. Knowing the weather and the state of their pitch, surely it's a day to assemble a heavyweight pack? Given that we are giving away bulk at 2 and 8 over many teams, why leave out 129kg Lewis Bean to take 107kg Gibbo & Coles? Ribbans plays 6 well and we don't have a shortage of locks with Lawes presumably back for the next one.

However you cut it, Bath out-scoring us by 7 points after getting a red card is really poor. Feels like a missed opportunity.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Hollywood JK 09 November, 2019 22:11
Our scrum has been an issue for several years. Letís see what the additional Franks brings upfront..

If no improvement we should use the Hartley salary saving on a world class prop!!

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Walks11 09 November, 2019 22:43
Quote:
Hollywood JK
Our scrum has been an issue for several years. Letís see what the additional Franks brings upfront..
If no improvement we should use the Hartley salary saving on a world class prop!!

I would say the scrum has improved immeasurably so far this season. We were poor pretty much every game last season at scrum time. Not a good day today but think 1 bad week in 4 is progress IMO

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
MarchingIn 09 November, 2019 23:05
Quote:
Walks11
Quote:
Hollywood JK
Our scrum has been an issue for several years. Letís see what the additional Franks brings upfront..
If no improvement we should use the Hartley salary saving on a world class prop!!

I would say the scrum has improved immeasurably so far this season. We were poor pretty much every game last season at scrum time. Not a good day today but think 1 bad week in 4 is progress IMO

Overall pack weight matters in the wet more than the dry. It sounds like the maul struggled as well?

Be interesting to compare pack weights in light of that, but I'm not enough of a nerd to look them all up.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
ballsout 10 November, 2019 08:40
Quote:
Walks11
I do find the Bath support very irritating, boo at the slightest decision that goes against them, like listening to a pantomime at times.

Yeah you never get that at FG...

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Saintalex 10 November, 2019 09:01
Quote:
Hollywood JK
Our scrum has been an issue for several years. Letís see what the additional Franks brings upfront..
If no improvement we should use the Hartley salary saving on a world class prop!!

We have just signed a world class prop. Owen Franks is the best if the best

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
P G Tips 10 November, 2019 09:13
Quote:
Walks11
I do find the Bath support very irritating, boo at the slightest decision that goes against them, like listening to a pantomime at times. The booing for Graysons kick at goal and cheering the resulting miss was poor IMO.

Regrettable sure Walks11.

To be fair though- it was a shocking ref performance from Mr Tempest for most of the match.The incident itself looked 50:50 at the time and a similar incident in the first half seemed to be the cause of Rokodoguni's departure for HIA- no action taken although right in front of 2 officials.

PG

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
tedge 10 November, 2019 10:13
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Walks11
I do find the Bath support very irritating, boo at the slightest decision that goes against them, like listening to a pantomime at times.

Yeah you never get that at FG...

Afraid he's right Walks - not so much booing, although if the crowd has been displeased by a decision it does happen, but cheering when the opposition miss a kick is commonplace - all very petty and childish really. We don't even go quiet for kicks these days despite the big screen requesting respect.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Dragonboy 10 November, 2019 14:26
I hope the Bath supporter who was trolling on here earlier about the red card has seen the highlights. Brew led with his forearm having lifted it into that position and charged into Furbanks throat. A clear red card, and I must also say I was surprised Tom was awarded the try. Probably the only two decisions which went our way from what I heard on the commentary yesterday.

I think thatís 4 times Ian Tempest has reffed us this year. 3 times from the pitch and once when running the line ďsupportingĒ a novice ref.

Havenít we suffered enough. Bring back Spredders!

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Sir Hector 10 November, 2019 16:38
And Ashley Rowden!

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Bath Hammer 10 November, 2019 16:56
Quote:
Dragonboy
I hope the Bath supporter who was trolling on here earlier about the red card has seen the highlights. Brew led with his forearm having lifted it into that position and charged into Furbanks throat. A clear red card, and I must also say I was surprised Tom was awarded the try. Probably the only two decisions which went our way from what I heard on the commentary yesterday.
I think thatís 4 times Ian Tempest has reffed us this year. 3 times from the pitch and once when running the line ďsupportingĒ a novice ref.

Havenít we suffered enough. Bring back Spredders!

Most of us present on Saturday saw 3 or 4 infringements by Saints that were missed by Tempest so it depends on your perspective.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Chris Hoddle 10 November, 2019 17:33
Bath Hammer,
Dont forget those 3 or 4 infringements by Bath that I saw that Mr Tempest missed.



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Longers 10 November, 2019 18:22
Having watched JP Doyle reffing the Leicester?Irish game, I wonder what constitutes a good ref nowadays. Apalling work from all the officials.

It seems pot-luck today as to any decisions that may be taken - by anyone on either side.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
jimusjones 11 November, 2019 07:31
Not sure why the bath fans feel so aggrieved with Fubank during the Brew incident.

He took a proper shot to the chin and Bath fans think he was milking it for a red card?

Also why was Freddie Burns so aggro afterwards? Brew put his hand up straight away as if to say it was an accident.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Never In Doubt 11 November, 2019 08:02
As a Bath fan, I agree it was a red card. I don't really think almost any Bath fans, excepting the obvious few, believe Furbank was anything but sinned against.

For a period of time, there was probably some anger as if you saw it from one angle then if looked totally innocuous (I didn't watch it live so don't what replays were shown at the game). However, when you see the replay from behind Brew then it is without doubt a red card. I think some have been tempted to disbelieve that it could be a red card as we admire Brew for being a wholehearted and fair player and therefore they have tried to argue for self-defence.

For me it was reckless and deserved a red. Brew looked apologetic as soon as he realised what he had done (I hope instinctively rather than with forethought) and Freddie is always a bit of a hot head. Furbank did nothing to milk the card and was probably totally surprised by the impact.

I only saw the game on TV and frankly was delighted and surprised that our pack turned up so strongly and if we can get our backs to function then we are in for a good season. This seems the reverse of you as your backs are purring but the pack seems stodgy.

Good luck for the season.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Saint Stokey 11 November, 2019 10:38
I don't think there was any intent in the red card incident but sadly the law is the law.

I wonder if its time for a Scrum Ref to come on to specifically ref the scrum. Too many refs at the moment seem to be guessing.

When there is a new set of props, a ref should not be basing his 'picture' on the previous set of players.

Get a ref that has experience of scrums, even if its a ex player.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
Dragonboy 11 November, 2019 11:16
Quote:
Saint Stokey
I don't think there was any intent in the red card incident but sadly the law is the law.
I wonder if its time for a Scrum Ref to come on to specifically ref the scrum. Too many refs at the moment seem to be guessing.

When there is a new set of props, a ref should not be basing his 'picture' on the previous set of players.

Get a ref that has experience of scrums, even if its a ex player.

The only ex front rower Iíve seen reffing is a very svelte looking Nick Wood but it was a championship match and some time ago iirc.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
smitferbrainz 11 November, 2019 13:41
Why canít the RFU allocate a ďscrum assistantĒ for each game? An expert who actually comes onto the field for every scrum. They stand on opposite sides, changing occasionally as required in order that the ďscrum assistantĒ gets an all round view. They are all miked up to each other. In my view linos are worse than useless and at times are ďjudgingĒ from long distance without any detailed knowledge. We can all think of ex players whoíd be brilliant at doing this and as long as they arenít involved with their ex clubs I donít see the problem. Iíd say this role is more important than an individual citing official at each game. Itís funny we appoint someone to judge solely on foul play which, to be honest is at the extreme end of things but donít think of a way to sort scrums which are such a basic part of play And fundamental to potential enjoyment of a game. I evidence Exeter v Bristol yesterday, one early 2nd half scrum seemed to take forever, Karl Dixon looked as if he needed help from someone who knew what he/ she was talking about. He reset the scrum several times and it seemed to take ages. Just an idea, Iíve suggested it before on here but itís never really warranted a discussion.

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
P G Tips 12 November, 2019 13:02
Quote:
Never In Doubt
As a Bath fan, I agree it was a red card. I don't really think almost any Bath fans, excepting the obvious few, believe Furbank was anything but sinned against.
For a period of time, there was probably some anger as if you saw it from one angle then if looked totally innocuous (I didn't watch it live so don't what replays were shown at the game). .

Agree- contact with throat-red card.

I was at the game and - at the time- the replays shown on the screen appeared to show a 50:50 clash. Most around me expected a yellow card - but even from behind the contact with the throat was not clear at a distance -it looked like a push to the chest.

PG

Re: Bath v Saints on Radio Noddy
MarchingIn 12 November, 2019 20:47
I have long thought that the law should change to prevent the scrum being taken as an option for free kicks and penalties. I also don't see why being driven off the ball on your own put in should be seen as a penalty - it isn't foul play. If it happens to you on your own put in and the ball doesn't come out, free kick to the other team, take it as a kick & get on with it. If you drive them off the ball on your own put in, penalty, to be played as advantage if the ball is out, no re-take the scrum option. 10-20 minutes of scrums and repeated time off is not entertaining. Much rather that than a scrum ref.

Saints were obviously under scrum pressure later on in the game - that started with Franks, who doesn't seem all that fit and looks like a 50 minute player. Looked the same against Quins, fine in the 1st half, tires quickly in the second. He coughed up 2 scrum penalties in fairly quick succession VS Bath past 50 minutes... if Saints had "changed the picture" by subbing him on 58m after the second, he wouldn't have been loitering offside to get carded. Mistake 1. Why the hell we took Woody off instead of a winger, knowing the scrum was wobbling, and without Naiyaravoro to add bulk at 8 (first scrum was 7 men FFS) is beyond me, mistake 2. Need to learn from both.

Beyond that, Tempest could have reffed it better. Saints went early before the ball was in on the second attempt - correct call against us. The next scrum, Bath went early, not picked up. Their 3 pushed Trinder off his bind for the first few engagements, which the TMO had to call, and was only a warning. The scrum where Hill was carded, Bath's loosehead clearly lost his footing and hit the floor first, the call was collapsing the scrum, so that actually went the wrong way IMO. Bath were clearly going to drive through if the scrum was stable, so Tempest just pinged Saints every time it wasn't stable. That's why I'd stop the scrum being an option - Bath just played for and got a card. All part of the game as it stands, and they made the right call on the field to do it, and we would have done the same with the boot on the other foot - but it is boring and cynical. There is too much ambiguity about fault and too much standing around and lecturing the players, just put a stop it.


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