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Saracens and England
Discussion started by tedge , 18 November, 2019 16:03
Saracens and England
tedge 18 November, 2019 16:03
Beeb

Reading between the lines is Jones inferring that he wouldn't have a problem if a Saracens player declined to turn out for England and if so should he be applauded for not penalising such a player (regarding possible future selection) ? Normally such a refusal would effectively retire a play from possible selection, like going abroad to play, or did Joe Marler's return set a new precedent ?

Should Saracens players be applauded for staying loyal to their club ?

Re: Saracens and England
Awaywin 18 November, 2019 16:07
Club before country for me

Re: Saracens and England
Wilson Pickett 18 November, 2019 16:17
If a player refuses to play for his country then he needs cutting for a long time. I donít buy that they love their club so much..... itís all about money.

If they want to choose cash over country then play in France.

Re: Saracens and England
Flook 18 November, 2019 16:21
Quote:
WP
If they want to choose cash over country then play in France.

But don't they get about £15k a game for England, probably less than per game in France though.

Re: Saracens and England
Saint Stokey 18 November, 2019 16:28
I guess the only way that they can do this is to retire from Internationals, then un-retire like Joe Marler. But as far as I was aware, Marlers inclusion was down to lack of significant options.

It's a risk though. What happens is Itoje 'retires' and Ribbans or Kpoku gets the call up. Will he ever get selected again? To step away from the international team really is quite a show of arrogance. It assumes that no one is going to be better than you!

Re: Saracens and England
Walks11 18 November, 2019 16:34
I would say the ramifications are not so bad given where we are in the W.C. cycle, so if Farrell for example decides to choose Sarries over England this season there is still time to re-establish himself ahead of the next W.C. however, they do have contracts with England and donít Sarries get concessions on the cap for England reps, if they all pull out that could have consequences on their ability to stay beneath.

There is however the small carrot of a Lions tour on the horizon. Would you want to exclude yourself and put this at risk.

Letís face it the chance of them remaining bottom are remote and the they have enough firepower irrespective of whose away with England to avoid relegation. Guess it depends on what is their revised target(s) for the season

Re: Saracens and England
Duckonstilts 18 November, 2019 16:40
If they are not wanting to play for a while they could just go abroad for the cash and come back in two years, ready to win back a place pre world cup.

Re: Saracens and England
Wilson Pickett 18 November, 2019 16:43
Why would they be allowed to play for Saracens instead of England with zero punishment when Tigers or Bath will be losing players and are in the same dogfight?


The punishment wasnít ď35 points but you get to skip playing for England to help you stay upĒ


if they do choose Saracens over England it probably shows just how much of a pay premium exists at Saracens

Re: Saracens and England
Duckonstilts 18 November, 2019 16:50
And when their country came calling they replied "Sorry its a bit inconvenient".

Re: Saracens and England
Abington Adam 18 November, 2019 16:55
If their commitment to England is that flaky then maybe that explains a thing or two about the world cup final*



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

Re: Saracens and England
Saint For Life 18 November, 2019 16:55
If the players are not available for England I would assume the club is not entitled to the additional salary cap credit for having players in the England squad . Even Saracens would surely not argue otherwise even though that is likely to result in going above the cap limit this season . Once you start fiddling it is a downwards spiral .

Re: Saracens and England
HerbieSaint 18 November, 2019 16:57
I would imagine that any en masse withdrawal of Sarries' England players would risk landing the club back in hot water again with PRL (i.e. the other clubs, who mostly think the punishment was too lenient and will scent blood at any sign of further treachery) and the RFU, who have jointly signed the professional game agreement which stipulates that clubs must release selected England players for all international windows.

If multiple Sarries players withdraw from selection, could the club legitimately argue they hadn't influenced that decision in any way? This is a very tricky path for them to tread.

Re: Saracens and England
tedge 18 November, 2019 17:10
It would establish a principal that any club struggling at the wrong end of the league would say they need all their players to help them out; this season that could be a team like Tigers who have a lot of internationals but are currently struggling.

Re: Saracens and England
Abington Adam 18 November, 2019 17:14
On a serious note I'm sure the likes of O2, Adidas, Canterbury et al would have a thing or two to say to the players involved.



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

Re: Saracens and England
tedge 18 November, 2019 17:18
Of course if EJ's natural sympathies lie with his old club he can select who he likes and say he's planning for the next RWC !

Re: Saracens and England
ch saint 18 November, 2019 17:19
Quote:
Saint For Life
If the players are not available for England I would assume the club is not entitled to the additional salary cap credit for having players in the England squad . Even Saracens would surely not argue otherwise even though that is likely to result in going above the cap limit this season . Once you start fiddling it is a downwards spiral .

Spot on. The club gets extra cap credit for every England international, and for players that have come through the academy. Without this expansion of the cap they may well be sliding down a slippery slope to another season of cheating. In total the credits could add £2m to the cap.
There is a different attitude at Sarries though, they are constantly looking for ways to outspend other clubs, whereas many clubs are simply looking to fund the trading loss.
Back to the main point if a player doesn't want to play for England so be it, there should not be one rule for Sarries players and another for every other club.

Re: Saracens and England
Siggy89 18 November, 2019 17:51
Quote:
Flook
Quote:
WP
If they want to choose cash over country then play in France.

But don't they get about £15k a game for England, probably less than per game in France though.

Peanuts to what Nigel pays them then.

Re: Saracens and England
fair_weather_fan 18 November, 2019 18:19
Its likely in the case of compensation calculations in the cap that they are done retrospectively. Maybe even with a roll-over to smooth out fluctuations, against an estimate. Might impact future seasons cap space.

If these JV's were the problem wouldnt they have to be valued annually, with any increase/decrease counting against the cap?

Re: Saracens and England
Aberavon Wizard 18 November, 2019 18:28
If a player wishes to retire permanently from International call ups - no problem.
If a player is proven to be injured and unable to play for club or country - no problem.
If a player wishes to temporarily retire from International rugby, not an issue providing he does not play for his club therefore allowing for domestic problems, welfare etc - no problem.

If a player wishes to put club over country - BIG problem which should lead to a long enforced absence from International rugby. Other selected players from other clubs will be expected to play for their country as required when chosen. Any concession to individual players to put club before country puts us back into the realm of uneven playing fields which surely is where this whole business began in the first place.

I understand that this is pure speculation at the moment but the state of the game at Premiership level is more important than the travails of a single club who have been found guilty of behaviour contrary to the regulations.

Re: Saracens and England
Sans Culottes 18 November, 2019 18:37
Quote:
Aberavon Wizard
If a player wishes to retire permanently from International call ups - no problem.
If a player is proven to be injured and unable to play for club or country - no problem.
If a player wishes to temporarily retire from International rugby, not an issue providing he does not play for his club therefore allowing for domestic problems, welfare etc - no problem.

If a player wishes to put club over country - BIG problem which should lead to a long enforced absence from International rugby. Other selected players from other clubs will be expected to play for their country as required when chosen. Any concession to individual players to put club before country puts us back into the realm of uneven playing fields which surely is where this whole business began in the first place.

I understand that this is pure speculation at the moment but the state of the game at Premiership level is more important than the travails of a single club who have been found guilty of behaviour contrary to the regulations.

Spot on !

Let's just hope that neither EJ nor the RFU encourage or permit such a thing to happen.

Re: Saracens and England
Brackleysaint 18 November, 2019 18:46
If the Saracens Internationals chose not to play in the Six Nations then this will create further furore for Saracens and cast them in further bad light. I could then see players from other teams following suit as what is good for one is good for another. Could be very messy.

Re: Saracens and England
andysaint 18 November, 2019 18:53
Putting aside the Sarries issue, Iíd like to see some other opportunities for others during the 6N. Lawes, Farrell, George have played a lot for England and whilst I think the first 15 is one of the best in the world, we do have issues with depth behind that in some positions. So if EJ decided to give others some opportunities I would not have a problem with that. It should not be down to the clubs or players however.

Re: Saracens and England
shendy 18 November, 2019 18:54
Sarries couldn't not release the players to England (or whoever) - international callups take precedence.
The players would have to "retire" from international rugby, declare themselves unavailable, whatever - which also means they lose the money they get from being part of the England squad. It's not just the £15k per game, there's plenty of money in being in the squad.

Re: Saracens and England
ramseysaint 18 November, 2019 18:55
Quote:
Awaywin
Club before country for me

+1 always

Re: Saracens and England
ch saint 18 November, 2019 18:57
Quote:
shendy
Sarries couldn't not release the players to England (or whoever) - international callups take precedence.
The players would have to "retire" from international rugby, declare themselves unavailable, whatever - which also means they lose the money they get from being part of the England squad. It's not just the £15k per game, there's plenty of money in being in the squad.

Yes the market value of a player increases when he becomes a member of the England squad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/11/2019 19:21 by ch saint.

Re: Saracens and England
Saint Stokey 18 November, 2019 23:09
But his value as a player in terms of availability increases when he withdraws from England

Re: Saracens and England
Neil-H 19 November, 2019 03:05
The RFU pay the PRL a substantial amount of money for access to the players.... IF the players decided to make themselves unavailable due to this, it would likely cause a right @#$%& storm between RFU and PRL and then PRL and Saracens if this was to happen

I doubt it will happen...

And it comes from Sandersons words at weekends, which was actually @#$%& stirring, saying the guys would only play 7 games as away with England because of agreement

Thatís right if they played in Europe, and then knock out games... but if Saracens not using them for Europe then they can play all leagues games easily enough within the agreement

Re: Saracens and England
St Saltaire 19 November, 2019 06:44
Any player making them self unavailable for International duty runs a huge risk. Of those England and Saracens players only Itoje is world class. The others, with the exceptions of the Vunipolas, could be replaced with equal quality. Cipriani didnít do his career any good with his trip down under and there is no longer any talk of how we miss the French exiles. A rugby career is short and unpredictable and putting Club before country is laudable but unlikely. Wasnít one of Saracens reasons for breaking the cap to provide high quality Internationals?*

Re: Saracens and England
Hantsaintsrus4 19 November, 2019 09:06
Reading the judgement carefully if Sarries go half the season with good behaviour they only get half of the points deducted, but, the players have to play with an electronic tag on their ankle. Rumours that management are going to fit rockets to their tags is unsubstantiated.

Re: Saracens and England
Wilson Pickett 19 November, 2019 10:01
Quote:
ramseysaint
Quote:
Awaywin
Club before country for me

+1 always



with respect that is just an empty statement, when did a Saints player ever not play for England to play for us?

Re: Saracens and England
Duckonstilts 19 November, 2019 10:45
Personally I prefer to watch Saints than England. But I also want our players to play at the highest level as I believe many deserve it.

As above, the RFU pay for access and if a club with so many Internationals decides not to play ball then it could cause friction. Also if 5 Saracens dont play then other clubs will have to make up for it, further tipping the balance.

Hopefully they change the rules so that the punishments are even worse in future.

Re: Saracens and England
fair_weather_fan 19 November, 2019 12:26
The sanctions can't cater for a hubristic multi millionaire willing to put most of his dosh into the club. He can pay the fine, converting the losses into equity again, and stand the losses of relegation. The only available (as in available in principle) functioning sanction is ejection from the group of 13. They could join the pro14 I guess.

Re: Saracens and England
ramseysaint 19 November, 2019 16:12
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
ramseysaint
Quote:
Awaywin
Club before country for me

+1 always



with respect that is just an empty statement, when did a Saints player ever not play for England to play for us?

I'll fill it in a bit WP. I couldn't care less about who wins or who loses as regards international rugby, ( that doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it). I do care when our players are dragged off to play for Wales/Scotland/England and are returned to us weeks later, depriving us of their talents in our team. I know playing for their country, as in most sports, is the highest achievement a player can attain and I know their skills improve when playing other nations.

It's a personal preference and I prefer watching and supporting Saint's, so it's club before country for me.

Re: Saracens and England
MarchingIn 19 November, 2019 16:53
Any Sarries player who "tactically retires" from International duty can just stay retired as far as I'm concerned.

I have a feeling Sarries would like to push central contracts now they have been caught cheating twice & shift some of the salary balance onto the RFU instead. They rest their internationals more than most, what wouldn't suit them about it?

Re: Saracens and England
Wilson Pickett 19 November, 2019 17:27
Quote:
ramseysaint
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
ramseysaint
Quote:
Awaywin
Club before country for me

+1 always



with respect that is just an empty statement, when did a Saints player ever not play for England to play for us?

I'll fill it in a bit WP. I couldn't care less about who wins or who loses as regards international rugby, ( that doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it). I do care when our players are dragged off to play for Wales/Scotland/England and are returned to us weeks later, depriving us of their talents in our team. I know playing for their country, as in most sports, is the highest achievement a player can attain and I know their skills improve when playing other nations.

It's a personal preference and I prefer watching and supporting Saint's, so it's club before country for me.



I get all that but thatís the wrong context. We are discussing whether Saracens players are allowed an international sabbatical to keep them up whilst all the rest of us have to supply players


I think thatís BS

Re: Saracens and England
fair_weather_fan 19 November, 2019 22:00
Agree WP. If they are fit and they are picked, thats an end of it. Refuse to go and you are a retired international. NO sabbaticals. Sarries have to manage with their very competent squad. The fact they have managed to add further current internationals to it over the summer isnt our problem is it.

Re: Saracens and England
ch saint 19 November, 2019 22:01
For me the big question regarding EJ's latest comments is whether he is considering some kind of special dispensation towards Sarries players if they are struggling to stay up.
Just imagine if the Saints were locked in a bottom of the table struggle and EJ called up our three internationals plus Mitchell and Ribeye, but allowed Sarries players to stay with the club. It would be adding insult to injury, and I can't see it ever being allowed.
However the media are very pro Sarries.

Re: Saracens and England
shendy 20 November, 2019 08:08
Quote:
ch saint
However the media are very pro Sarries.

Did you see that following on from Stephen Jones' ridiculous defence of Sarries, the Sunday Times printed something like 5 letters attacking his position?

Re: Saracens and England
Wilson Pickett 20 November, 2019 09:43
He is also on Twitter threatening anyone calling Saracens cheats with potential legal action by the club! Heís lost it... or is on the take...

Re: Saracens and England
Saint Stokey 20 November, 2019 10:45
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
He is also on Twitter threatening anyone calling Saracens cheats with potential legal action by the club! Heís lost it... or is on the take...

does that include the Gallagher Premiership?

Re: Saracens and England
shendy 20 November, 2019 11:13
Are they going to sue everyone who was in The Shed for the game at Glaws? They were singing "Same old Sarries, always cheating" all through the game.

Re: Saracens and England
John Tee 20 November, 2019 11:29
what is so special about Saracens.
They've signed up as participants, got caught cheating and now seem to want to decide how it all pans out.

The EPL must be bigger and stronger than one club.
The RWC is over, they have 2 years in which time Saracens realise they either comply or get kicked out.
Their England players either want to play for England or they dont.

If the other clubs aren't convinced they will play ball, special meeting, vote them out.

That is what should happen but I can imagine all sort of face savings bodges are going on.

This will doom rubgy in England unless someone gets a grip.

You have many many fans disgusted at the goings on and also have many many fans with a very insular and resigned view that nothing will change and I'll still watch my club and hold my nose when Saracens are in town.

Complete and utter laughing stock and amateur hour which other sports fans ...especially football ..would never accept.

Re: Saracens and England
tedge 20 November, 2019 12:00
Once Saracens have paid up and cleaned up their operations to everybody's satisfaction (by everybody I mean the authorities - not the public), and made it clear that they have learned the lessons, I will acknowledge that they have paid the penalty, done their time and be content for them to move on and be welcome participants in the Premiership/Championship with no ongoing grudges.

Re: Saracens and England
Man From Wick 20 November, 2019 15:47
Quote:
tedge
Once Saracens have paid up and cleaned up their operations to everybody's satisfaction (by everybody I mean the authorities - not the public), and made it clear that they have learned the lessons, I will acknowledge that they have paid the penalty, done their time and be content for them to move on and be welcome participants in the Premiership/Championship with no ongoing grudges.

The trouble is that a lot of the rugby community won't ever believe they are being honest and will never welcome them, and after the last 3+ years, with good reason. They have ruined any credibility English club rugby has had for several previous years as an honest competition, and for future years as well because they will be under a lot of people 's suspicion. As for England, if their players withdraw for a year then all of the other clubs should do the same, why should Sarries* gain another advantage over their rivals?

Re: Saracens and England
ch saint 20 November, 2019 16:01
Quote:
shendy
Quote:
ch saint
However the media are very pro Sarries.

Did you see that following on from Stephen Jones' ridiculous defence of Sarries, the Sunday Times printed something like 5 letters attacking his position?

Shendy I read the original article, but found it hard to finish because my respect for Stephen Jones has fallen since the WC, and I didn't notice the letters.
Sarries have been found guilty of breaching the rules, I call that cheating. They effectively corrupted the last three years of the league (at least), which resulted in BT's buying the rights to a tarnished tv sport, CVC investing in a corrupted competition, the premiership being represented in europe by a discredited club, supporters from the other 11 clubs paying for tickets in a corrupt competition, some clubs being disadvantaged by having players leaving for Sarries, the main club sponsor paying fees to a corrupted club which may have damaged its reputation, it goes on and on.

Re: Saracens and England
shendy 20 November, 2019 16:04
The letters were the following week.

Re: Saracens and England
Wilson Pickett 21 November, 2019 00:03
Went to an Eddie Q&A this evening in London. He was open and really top class in all aspects.

A young lad from Hertfordshire asked a question about scouting, Eddie replied saying there may be salary cap issues!

Everything he talked about from his family to managing young players to losing finals was all centred around respect and hard work. Iíd now be amazed if he did anything to help Saracens. My friend suggested his comments were very smart in the week because heís put the pressure all back into Saracens.


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