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Money, Money, Money!
Discussion started by Jazzman , 27 July, 2020 16:01
Money, Money, Money!
Jazzman 27 July, 2020 16:01
BBC

Re: Money, Money, Money!
LeicesterSaint 27 July, 2020 16:15
Really good to see Japan and Fiji playing some more top level rugby between RWCs but really worried about player burnout. Not sure what the Japanese domestic schedule is and how it's been impacted by COVID so they might be OK (and potentially do even more damage to NH reputations that they would anyway!) but it's gonna be even more games for the British, Irish, French and Italian players. I'm guessing the majority if Fijian players play in those leagues too? Unless they rock up with a load of unknown players and give everyone the run around anyway!

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Saint Tim 27 July, 2020 20:32
This to my view is sensible. The game is in dire need for money. Yes it will impact us but looking at the wider aspects I think this is sensible.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
lilyg 28 July, 2020 07:26
It's crazy! here's where we are without these ridulous games being included:

Oct 24: Prem Final; Ire v Ita
Oct 25 Eng v BaaBaas
Oct 31 Eng v Ita; Wal v Sco; Fra v Ire
Nov 7/8 Rest
Nov 14/15 Pool games
Nov 21/22 Pool games; Prem starts
Nov 28/29 Pool games; Prem
Dec 5/6 Test Comp 'Final(s)'; Prem
Dec 12/13 European Cups start

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Saint Maul 28 July, 2020 07:59
Quote:
lilyg
It's crazy! here's where we are without these ridulous games being included:
Oct 24: Prem Final; Ire v Ita
Oct 25 Eng v BaaBaas
Oct 31 Eng v Ita; Wal v Sco; Fra v Ire
Nov 7/8 Rest
Nov 14/15 Pool games
Nov 21/22 Pool games; Prem starts
Nov 28/29 Pool games; Prem
Dec 5/6 Test Comp 'Final(s)'; Prem
Dec 12/13 European Cups start

Self-interest, not going under financially and player welfare collide yet again.

Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise if it forces a fundamental re-think but it feels like watching a car crash waiting to happen. Hope I'm wrong.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Aberavon Wizard 28 July, 2020 08:53
As I see it the clubs will lose their International players from late October till the start of the European Cup. The 'stars' will then have a full schedule all the way until June at which time some could be off to ZA for a Lions tour ( behind closed doors ) followed by pre-season training into the 21/22 campaign. Were it not for the fact that the RFU is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt, then the spectre of central contracts would surely have raised it head again.

Imho we should have written off all 19/20competitions and started again afresh in September. I understand the financial implications but for the good of the game, the welfare of the players and the safety of the supporters, that is how it should be. Judging from what I have seen of football, cricket, golf and F1 without spectators, I really cannot get too excited about the resumption of the 19/20 season as we, as fans, will not be part of it.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Neil-H 28 July, 2020 09:18
Aberavon, maybe the clubs couldnít afford to write off the season, it would have bankrupted many of them?

The PRL is run by the clubs, so itís their decision? Only they know the full impact financially?

The RFU has agreement with PRL over release of players, are the players actually away any longer than they would be during international window?

We know the RFU are in financial troubles, do they really have an option? Losing the tv monies from 6 nations and autumn internationals? Let alone the crowds? The other games they host, the concerts? What income have they actually had?

Again the Lions gives the home unions and then PRL through RFU lots of monies.... I would think pushing start of 21/22 season back a month, so players do get a proper rest!

So fa different view is, itís in best interests of the players, cause without all the the clubs will suffer, RFU will suffer and the pro game will stutter big time?

Way I look at it, is itís not by a long way ideal for the players, but if it is what needs to be done to ensure the games/clubs financial survival then so be it, covid isnít the fault of anyone in rugby and like lots of businesses as it is) hard decisions have to be made

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Duckonstilts 28 July, 2020 10:16
Its all well and good planning for these things but all it takes in an outbreak in a club or camp and its all back on hold. Hopefully though the testing will help.

Imo this combined competition is an interesting idea, just badly timed.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Jamie_86 28 July, 2020 10:22
Quote:
Aberavon Wizard
As I see it the clubs will lose their International players from late October till the start of the European Cup. The 'stars' will then have a full schedule all the way until June at which time some could be off to ZA for a Lions tour ( behind closed doors ) followed by pre-season training into the 21/22 campaign. Were it not for the fact that the RFU is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt, then the spectre of central contracts would surely have raised it head again.
Imho we should have written off all 19/20competitions and started again afresh in September. I understand the financial implications but for the good of the game, the welfare of the players and the safety of the supporters, that is how it should be. Judging from what I have seen of football, cricket, golf and F1 without spectators, I really cannot get too excited about the resumption of the 19/20 season as we, as fans, will not be part of it.

I don't see how you can say you understand the financial implications and suggest the season be cancelled (therefore forfeiting the BT money) all in the same sentence.

If you do understand the financial implications (i.e. potential oblivion) then you also have to understand why the season is not written off.

I'm not sure how it's good for the game if 4 or 5 of the professional clubs go bust.



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Re: Money, Money, Money!
Aberavon Wizard 28 July, 2020 10:57
One of the main reasons why the game is in trouble is that it is not as popular as it thinks it is. Clubs have been over spending on players for far too long, a situation exacerbated by wealthy owners. Whole game needs a rethink.

Of course the TV money is important but it was my understanding that BT had been very good on this issue.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Saint.Kenneth 28 July, 2020 14:47
Aberavon, I couldn't agree more. Why do rugby players believe that they deserve the wages that they do, especially when there isn't the money in the game to support that? If the salary cap was paying for 50 players in a squad, rather than 35 or so now, then a lot of the issues regarding fixture congestion would be eased as players could be rotated and rested.

As an example from the football world, the father of Liverpool player Jamie Carragher, was a successful and decent footballer, who gave up playing professional football, because he could earn more money as a builder. If wages in rugby were reduced, then the players have the choice of whether they want that career of another more lucrative one. Of course the top players will ask for the multiple hundred thousand pound deals if the clubs are daft enough to pay that kind of money, but when the foundations of the sport are so flimsy, the desire to try and match the wages of their footballer counterparts is actually damaging their own sport.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Saint Maul 28 July, 2020 15:28
Quote:
Saint.Kenneth
Aberavon, I couldn't agree more. Why do rugby players believe that they deserve the wages that they do, especially when there isn't the money in the game to support that? If the salary cap was paying for 50 players in a squad, rather than 35 or so now, then a lot of the issues regarding fixture congestion would be eased as players could be rotated and rested.
As an example from the football world, the father of Liverpool player Jamie Carragher, was a successful and decent footballer, who gave up playing professional football, because he could earn more money as a builder. If wages in rugby were reduced, then the players have the choice of whether they want that career of another more lucrative one. Of course the top players will ask for the multiple hundred thousand pound deals if the clubs are daft enough to pay that kind of money, but when the foundations of the sport are so flimsy, the desire to try and match the wages of their footballer counterparts is actually damaging their own sport.

Sadly it is the club game in France, England and Japan causing the unsustainable wage hyper-inflation.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Neil-H 28 July, 2020 18:04
Quote:
Aberavon Wizard
One of the main reasons why the game is in trouble is that it is not as popular as it thinks it is. Clubs have been over spending on players for far too long, a situation exacerbated by wealthy owners. Whole game needs a rethink.
Of course the TV money is important but it was my understanding that BT had been very good on this issue.

I agree and throughout the whole Sarries debacle, I have been saying, that RFU, PRL, Player Union all need to sit down and work out whatís best for the game long term, as so many clubs struggling prior to covid situation.

Players wages and their agents have out stripped the growth of the game, squad size shrinking to pay players and compete at premiership level!, itís a joke.

Covid May have forced their hand and will help in the long term, salary cap dropped, 1 less marquee player is it???

But measures taken now, are to hopefully see the clubs through this period....

Hopefully theyíll tKe the bull by the horns and carry on reflecting and changing smiling smiley

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Santiago 28 July, 2020 22:29
[quote Neil-H][quote Aberavon Wizard]

Players wages and their agents have out stripped the growth of the game, squad size shrinking to pay players and compete at premiership level!, itís a joke.

[/quote]

So are agents parasites or do they have a valuable role?

Re: Money, Money, Money!
ajack 29 July, 2020 07:59
If you allow clubs to spend what they want, many will go bust and the ones at the top will only be the ones with wealthy backers willing to write off large amounts of money. If you only allow teams to pay what the bottom clubs can afford the top players will go abroad, standards will drop and rugby will become a less attractive proposition to players, supports and TV companies and their money.
The circle that always needs squaring.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Neil-H 29 July, 2020 08:48
Quote:
ajack
If you allow clubs to spend what they want, many will go bust and the ones at the top will only be the ones with wealthy backers willing to write off large amounts of money. If you only allow teams to pay what the bottom clubs can afford the top players will go abroad, standards will drop and rugby will become a less attractive proposition to players, supports and TV companies and their money.
The circle that always needs squaring.

Itís finding the balance?

The rich clubs need the other clubs aswell.

Hopefully they will be able to pay the players a reasonable wage, then the internationals get the top up playing international rugby and keep the rule about not being selected if you are playing abroad,

Then the top players will be receiving As much if not a bit more than they would if they go elsewhere and keep their international aspirations alive.

By having the cap we keep a competitive league, the last 2 seasons have shown how important this is and as a fans, I loved it, how many points between virtually the whole league? Take the cheats out of the equation? Nearly every club involved in some sort of fight, whether top 2, top 4, European or relegation... less dead rubbers matches and more excitement and better for attracting tv viewers imho?

Who wants a football league where the money dictates if you can compete or not?

Also, with France changing their rules, they canít have so many foreign players? Japan only has so many teams and only so many positions available, I am not sure if they have restrictions on foreigners?

So the potential for players to go elsewhere has reduced

Itís why As mentioned above when Sarries scandal broke, I said all parties need3d to get together and review and change where needed, take the opportunity and make something good come from it

Now with Covid, they need to do this more so, they taken the first step, just shame they didnít talk to Players Union though!

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Neil-H 29 July, 2020 08:55
[quote Santiago][quote Neil-H][quote Aberavon Wizard]

Players wages and their agents have out stripped the growth of the game, squad size shrinking to pay players and compete at premiership level!, itís a joke.

[/quote]

So are agents parasites or do they have a valuable role?[/quote]

When the game turned professional, my ex brother in law became Adidas Rugby Rep for the world, he did the clubs and player deals (git went on 3 Lions tours as part of the touring party!)

He didnít have a very high opinion of Agents, who he said were just totally unrealistic and try to screw every last penny they could from you, in the disguise of itís in the players interest!

Ok this was sometime ago, but doubt much has changed, as they been around for much longer.

Iíd say they not needed in the game, the drive wages up and then some for their %, I think players have a good idea of their worth?

Maybe the Players Union should of they donít have a contract legal side, that can give advice to players if needed? Guidelines etc?

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Aberavon Wizard 29 July, 2020 09:03
I want to see competitive rugby between evenly matched teams. Personally, whilst I enjoy seeing some superstars from far off climes playing in the Prem, at the end of the day I don't NEED to have my team sprinkled with overseas stars if it compromises the structure of the game.

Would I still watch Saints if we had not signed Spencer, Picamoles and Biggar ? Yes of course, because they are my team and represent my home town. Did I enjoy my rugby more in the past - probably because the matchday 'experience' has slowly but inexorably changed and thank heavens for Saints and Gloucester who have resisted most of the PR excesses that occur at other clubs. Do I fear for the professional game in England - absolutely as reckless owners allied to unsustainable buslness models have warped the financial structure allied by a hapless and incompetent RFU !

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Saint Maul 29 July, 2020 10:42
Quote:
ajack
If you allow clubs to spend what they want, many will go bust and the ones at the top will only be the ones with wealthy backers willing to write off large amounts of money. If you only allow teams to pay what the bottom clubs can afford the top players will go abroad, standards will drop and rugby will become a less attractive proposition to players, supports and TV companies and their money.
The circle that always needs squaring.

I love the club game and supported Saints pre-professionalism. But if the club game in a couple of countries is bankrupting and undermining the game internationally and this continues; then I'd accept a move an Ireland type model of central contracts and regions run and owned by the Union.

I look at how much the England cricket team has improved since moving to central contracts. We had a team that from the mid 80s to 2000 struggled to bowl out team and often experienced batting collapses. Since central contracts England has gone back to winning the Ashes, got to number 1 in the world at one point and won the World Cup. It's a sustainable, successful improved model from when bowlers were flogged by their county and then expected to rip into the best batsmen in the world.

Careful player management of players has been the key to England. Anderson is 38 tomorrow and Broad 34. Broad just got 10 wickets to help beat the Windies. Both are still able to deliver at the highest level. Broad made the point the ECB retired him from limited overs cricket in 2016 to aid his test longevity.

If the circle can't be squared then it may be necessary to break the circle (club-based rugby) and build a square (central contracts). No doubt an unpopular view but self-glorifying club owners like Wray and Boudjellal are bankrupting game. IMHO

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Saint Tim 29 July, 2020 10:54
It might be good for England cricket but central contracts has crucified the county game.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
BrianB 29 July, 2020 11:49
And England has lost 8 out of the last 10 opening tests in a series - not enough practice with their counties beforehand!

Re: Money, Money, Money!
LeicesterSaint 29 July, 2020 12:13
Surely it makes more sense to compare to central contracting in rugby? Also I haven't the faintest idea about cricket.....

I think I'm right in saying;

NZ - seems to work well for both international and the clubs teams?
Ireland - I think only a few core players are centrally contracted to assist clubs in keeping top end players that might otherwise be lost to France/Japan etc? Not sure how that works as that may give an advantage to certain clubs with more key internationals?
Australia - doesn't seem to have worked well for clubs but then that is perhaps more down to issues around too many clubs and union struggling against other sports for support? Internationally they seem to have kept most key players available (for RWCs anyway) and probably still punch above their weight compared to population and union popularity?

England - decision not to pick those playing abroad seems to have been the main tool to keep players here so arguably the current status quo works for international. However clubs are nearly all loss making, success outside the prem seems to rely on circumventing the salary cap rules and many players are playing far too much rugby
France - clubs can compete in the Heineken etc and I think attendances etc are good but the international team has suffered with less French qualified players coming through as progress is blocked by imports
Wales - memory is rusty but I think central contracts were discussed around Sam Warburton and a few others but not used in the end? Difficulty holding on to top players (potentially not a bad thing if they're fairly local, I'd argue Biggs has improved with Saints and is hardly far from Wales). However regional franchises replacing the old clubs didn't go down well and I think are still struggling financially? They do still punch well above weight at international though.

Japan - I think each team is actually part of a company, that requires each town/city to have a big enough company in their location to fully support a whole squad and all the associated costs albeit I'm sure they recover some in the usual revenues generated by rugby clubs. Presumably the same issue as a 'sugar daddy' owner - the company struggles or goes bust and the team disappears?

Re: Money, Money, Money!
ancient mariner 29 July, 2020 15:40
Quote:
LeicesterSaint

Japan - I think each team is actually part of a company, that requires each town/city to have a big enough company in their location to fully support a whole squad and all the associated costs albeit I'm sure they recover some in the usual revenues generated by rugby clubs. Presumably the same issue as a 'sugar daddy' owner - the company struggles or goes bust and the team disappears?

The Japanese have a small number of giant, commercial organisations which they call Keiretsu, a bit like the Western conglomerate. They are usually, primarily multi-product manufacturing organisations combined with a finance business (Banking & Insurance arms), as well a number of loosely integrated supply companies and probably a major international distribution company. Mitsui, Misubishi, Sumitomo and Fuyo (Fuji) are some examples.

As part of what was almost a sacrosanct concept they employed people locally from cradle to grave, providing education and health care etc., as well as sponsoring sports clubs. The system is gradually changing, so I don't know how long the Kesretsu pattern will survive and if they are sponsoring rugby union clubs whether the current situation may cause them to rethink.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/07/2020 15:58 by ancient mariner.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
LeicesterSaint 31 July, 2020 09:05
That's the issue with reliance on external funding, if the individual or corporate either decides to stop or can't continue with that funding then you're in trouble very quickly. Having said that the big Japanese firms are typically looking in better shape than many others as they are traditionally very conservative around cash management - they tend to have lower debt and more cash than say US, UK, European companies. That's part a cultural thing and part practical as they tend to see more natural disasters.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Neil-H 31 July, 2020 10:01
With regards central contracting, that boat sailed some time ago when the game turned professional and the RFU old farts at the time sat on their @#$%& and did sweet FA.

Unless something awful happens in the game and clubs start to go under this wonít happen.

Why would club owners who have put millions into their clubs, ground, facilities etc, want to give the RFU control of their biggest attraction as in international players????

The monies the RFU pay the PRL for player access, is almost centralised contracts in a way, but PRL still controlling players

Re: Money, Money, Money!
tedge 31 July, 2020 10:12
IMO central contracting is absolutely the worst thing that could happen

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Duckonstilts 04 August, 2020 08:21
If you think that there are too many international games now (like me) then central contacts will only increase that. England Rugby will end up playing 15+ games a year and we will never see these players at a club.

If you are not loyal to a club then this is probably good for you as with Cricket, many people follow their country only and there are enough games to do just that. If however you follow a team then beware the fate of county Cricket.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
ajack 04 August, 2020 12:12
Quote:
Duckonstilts
If you think that there are too many international games now (like me) then central contacts will only increase that. England Rugby will end up playing 15+ games a year and we will never see these players at a club.
If you are not loyal to a club then this is probably good for you as with Cricket, many people follow their country only and there are enough games to do just that. If however you follow a team then beware the fate of county Cricket.

That is interesting as far as I am aware that hasn't happened in Australia, SA, NZ or Ireland where they have central contracts, why would it happen over here? I assume money is king and needed in these countries as well, if anything the evidence would suggest it provides better player welfare, fewer games, as well as a stronger national side.


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