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Impact on Player Development
Discussion started by shiversaint , 14 September, 2020 09:55
Impact on Player Development
shiversaint 14 September, 2020 09:55
I've basically made peace with myself regarding this season, and am open minded about what might happen in the next one. I wouldn't say I'm optimistic but I think it's plausible that we could still go somewhere positive with the right internal efforts (which is a big question mark, admittedly).

One thing I am particularly concerned about, is the impact that the rot we have setting in on our younger players. Are we doing damage that can't be undone?

Furbank for example, I think has probably laid waste to his England career for at least the next season if not permanently under EJ over the last few games - fundamental error after error which raises huge red flags about his underlying player development. We know he's a skilled player that has the bones to be great, but could there be lasting damage on that progression with the coaching incompetence we seem to have?

Across the board our outright skill levels are very, very poor. Passes being thrown behind and above team mates, extremely low accuracy in ruck management and approach, plenty of silly discipline errors and a scrum that looks fit for a school 2nd team. Does all of this culminate in damage to the player's underlying abilities? Does this doom some of our younger talent that we are paying quite high wages like Mitchell, Fish, Dingwall, Grayson, Sleighthome etc? What on earth has happened to Painter, for example? A young talent lauded by many that seems completely uninterested in his rugby?

I wonder what Isiekwe must think, having come in to see this clown show.

Re: Impact on Player Development
TringSaint 14 September, 2020 10:05
Thing is that they all know how to play and they all have the necessary skills, so it’s either pressure that they are piling on themselves or being piled on them that is making them behave the way they are.

A pass behind the player isn’t necessarily the passer’s fault if the receiver has over run, but it could be if they are trying to force things.

I think we are very guilty of trying to make things happen rather then letting them happen through accurate play, ie move the point of attack about to keep the deference on its toes and eventually you will get a mismatch or a hole and hey presto.

But trying speculative no-look offloads or passes is suicide at this level unless you are all in the same wavelength, and the more of those that fail, the more one dimensional our attack becomes.

Keep it simple, fast and accurate and the gaps will appear - rugby, after all, is a simple game if played well.

Re: Impact on Player Development
jimmies 14 September, 2020 10:22
what was noticeable yesterday on the tv was that the only player giving Iyogun the support and 'g' ups was Isiekwe....i expected more from 'our' guys TBH

Re: Impact on Player Development
Abington Adam 14 September, 2020 11:00
The Gloucester game and the end of the season can't come soon enough to be honest. After that it's 6 weeks until the resumption of competitive rugby, and hopefully that will allow for some kind of mental reset. The man management between October and the new season starting on 20th November will be crucial. In other circumstances you'd want Boyd to send them off on holiday for a week or two to unwind and forget about rugby, but that may not be possible so maybe some kind of "staycation" and some Sa***ens style team building is in order.



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
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Re: Impact on Player Development
smitferbrainz 14 September, 2020 11:17
I think we’re a club that suffers with the lack of a crowd. Unfortunately we’re going to be suffering for a fair while yet if this is a particular issue for us. With Covid levels rising once more and levels of restrictions increasing I think we’ve gone backwards on the “getting in” of crowds. Uni’s have got to go back yet which will increase infection rates again. I think full crowds are way off which, in my opinion will affect us worse than most.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Saint Maul 14 September, 2020 11:54
How we played last winter catapulted a number of our youngsters into England contention such a Furbank, Moon and Dingwall. At the time it felt premature. Furbank's catching looked a little suspect then but he was new kid on the block and this wasn't picked up by opposition at the time. This is effectively 2nd season syndrome where his weaknesses have been analysed and targeted. How he responds is what matters.

These inexperienced youngsters looked great playing into a team ripping it up. But look poorer playing in a struggling team. The reality is hey are somewhere in the middle and England selectors often select from teams doing well. These players haven't suddenly become poor players.

Boyd was lauded for unearthing these gems and trusting them with game time when Jim wouldn't have. Now when we are struggling, it's viewed as questionable.

Sports is a results-driven business. Get the results and you are a genius. Struggle and everything you do is questioned.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Saintly Pursuit 14 September, 2020 13:17
Players may develop better because of this run of games. Failure can be a very productive learning environment if it is seen as that.

Re: Impact on Player Development
SaintsAsh 14 September, 2020 14:36
I think Furbank is just not dominating in the air, he spilled the ball when faced with Nandolo coming in for the tackle. I think he needs to learn to be more aggressive in dominating the space.

I think that long term this run could be good for the youngsters, there are a lot of lessons to be learned. The problem with the covid situation is the lack of training time for them. When your in a rut playing game after game won't help, training time to put things right is what will help. Sadly we don't have that luxury.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Saint Stokey 14 September, 2020 15:17
I get what you're saying with regards to Furbank dominating the space, but it's never going to be easy to try and dominate an area when you're competing with a 21st Nadolo!

Re: Impact on Player Development
BuckSt 14 September, 2020 15:19
Short answer opinion: Yes.
Slightly longer answer: Short term yes they may miss out on being in international environment which would be great for their development. However, they have played their way into international recognition so they need to show that class and potential again. If they are the class of players they are touted as, then hopefully they will start showing it again soon.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Longers 14 September, 2020 15:21
Quote:
Saint Stokey
I get what you're saying with regards to Furbank dominating the space, but it's never going to be easy to try and dominate an area when you're competing with a 21st Nadolo!

I suggest that George, and whoever in the coaching set-up has been tasked with sorting out his issue under the high ball in particular (for I am sure that will have already happened*) finds footage of England coaching Jonny May. From someone who couldn't pay to catch a ball, he is now one of the best.

Where there's hope.........

Re: Impact on Player Development
SaintsAsh 14 September, 2020 15:29
Quote:
Longers
Quote:
Saint Stokey
I get what you're saying with regards to Furbank dominating the space, but it's never going to be easy to try and dominate an area when you're competing with a 21st Nadolo!

I suggest that George, and whoever in the coaching set-up has been tasked with sorting out his issue under the high ball in particular (for I am sure that will have already happened*) finds footage of England coaching Jonny May. From someone who couldn't pay to catch a ball, he is now one of the best.

Where there's hope.........

How long did that process take? And would he have improved when having to play game after game with very little training time between? Answers on a postcard.

Re: Impact on Player Development
shiversaint 14 September, 2020 16:45
I don't buy this training time argument. Look at the other top 4 teams - they are not suffering this dearth in skills.

Exeter and Sarries young guns yesterday were a joy to watch - clinical, fastidious and hungry. I get the argument that we may not be able to match Saracen's younger lads, but we shouldn't be lagging behind an Exeter development side.

Re: Impact on Player Development
John Tee 14 September, 2020 18:22
Dont know your team well enough but your backs were running well before Covid.
2 things since then, Corbus has gone and Mitchell is underwhelming by comparison. He was lauded by a lot of you guys but now he is the main man, he hasnt been able to step up.
Obviously what CR was able to do was exceptional so not at all easy to imitate, and a lack of confidence, seemingly, from Mitchell and the team who are heading backwards, compounds matters.

I think players should be able to recover over time..hopefully.

Re: Impact on Player Development
andysaint 14 September, 2020 19:21
Without meaning to over simplify matters, play the game using the players best attributes. That’s how they get confidence, that’s how the passes suddenly stick. We are playing the game that doesn’t suit the players and are then seemingly miffed where the skills go or why they look indifferent on the pitch. We’re trying to put square players through round holes at the moment. If that means playing conservatively play conservatively.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Longers 14 September, 2020 19:22
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Quote:
Longers
Quote:
Saint Stokey
I get what you're saying with regards to Furbank dominating the space, but it's never going to be easy to try and dominate an area when you're competing with a 21st Nadolo!

I suggest that George, and whoever in the coaching set-up has been tasked with sorting out his issue under the high ball in particular (for I am sure that will have already happened*) finds footage of England coaching Jonny May. From someone who couldn't pay to catch a ball, he is now one of the best.

Where there's hope.........

How long did that process take? And would he have improved when having to play game after game with very little training time between? Answers on a postcard.

So........

What do you do? Let him "play it out"? And meanwhile.........

Or drop him?

Or work with him?

Re: Impact on Player Development
OldMarovian 14 September, 2020 19:27
Quote:
SaintsAsh
I think Furbank is just not dominating in the air, he spilled the ball when faced with Nandolo coming in for the tackle. I think he needs to learn to be more aggressive in dominating the space.

I expect to get a bit of grief for saying this but I think Saints need a bit more cynacism in how they play. Maybe that's not what you want as supporters and I get that but with the above example pretty much every team uses blockers/a screen to protect the kick receiver. Too often I'm seeing the Saints kick receiver lined up from metres off with no one blocking them from making a big hit. That protection is part of what gives player confidence under the ball, knowing they won't be smashed the second their foot hits the ground.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Hymenoptera 14 September, 2020 19:39
[/quote]

I expect to get a bit of grief for saying this but I think Saints need a bit more cynacism in how they play. Maybe that's not what you want as supporters and I get that but with the above example pretty much every team uses blockers/a screen to protect the kick receiver. Too often I'm seeing the Saints kick receiver lined up from metres off with no one blocking them from making a big hit. That protection is part of what gives player confidence under the ball, knowing they won't be smashed the second their foot hits the ground.[/quote]

I'd expect nothing less from a Saracens supporter and your suggestion is what sets your team apart from the rest of the league. ..cynical approach on and off the pitch. There are plenty of other area's to improve on before identifying area's that can be cheated...thanks anyway.

Re: Impact on Player Development
smitferbrainz 14 September, 2020 20:43
Biggs should be helping Furbs out. Biggs is one of the best catchers of the high ball in world rugby.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Iamasaint 14 September, 2020 20:45
[quote Hymenoptera][/quote]

I expect to get a bit of grief for saying this but I think Saints need a bit more cynacism in how they play. Maybe that's not what you want as supporters and I get that but with the above example pretty much every team uses blockers/a screen to protect the kick receiver. Too often I'm seeing the Saints kick receiver lined up from metres off with no one blocking them from making a big hit. That protection is part of what gives player confidence under the ball, knowing they won't be smashed the second their foot hits the ground.[/quote]

I'd expect nothing less from a Saracens supporter and your suggestion is what sets your team apart from the rest of the league. ..cynical approach on and off the pitch. There are plenty of other area's to improve on before identifying area's that can be cheated...thanks anyway.[/quote]

Hymenoptera, grow up.
Saracens cheated the cap, we all know that. If you don’t play to win you won’t win. Playing the ref and being “cynical” are part of the game.
This continuous anti Sarries rhetoric is boring.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Tidy 14 September, 2020 20:51
+1

Re: Impact on Player Development
SaintsAsh 14 September, 2020 22:38
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
SaintsAsh
I think Furbank is just not dominating in the air, he spilled the ball when faced with Nandolo coming in for the tackle. I think he needs to learn to be more aggressive in dominating the space.

I expect to get a bit of grief for saying this but I think Saints need a bit more cynacism in how they play. Maybe that's not what you want as supporters and I get that but with the above example pretty much every team uses blockers/a screen to protect the kick receiver. Too often I'm seeing the Saints kick receiver lined up from metres off with no one blocking them from making a big hit. That protection is part of what gives player confidence under the ball, knowing they won't be smashed the second their foot hits the ground.

I agree, maybe not cynicism but we need some Leicester style mutants. Some grisly aggressive hard @#$%& that won't accept @#$%&. Sadly neither Saints nor Leicester have many of those atm.

Re: Impact on Player Development
LeicesterSaint 15 September, 2020 09:41
The example used of protecting your scrum half is neither cheating nor cynical, it's just simple common sense and good play. I personally don't like the OTT celebrating etc that Sarries developed but we're too far the other way. As I think someone else picked up on another thread it was only Isiekwe that seemed to be supporting Manny on his debut with some encouragement. I don't want to see the whole 15 whooping and hollering like we've just won the prem every time there's a scrum pen or turnover but I do think we can improve there. Likewise just getting those basics right and for god's sake play the ref - if they're allowing a free for all at the breakdown, compete and make it a mess. If the opposition is always a yard or two offside in the defensive line then why aren't we?

Thanks for the comment OldMarovian - you knew there would be some flack taken but I took it as well meant.

Re: Impact on Player Development
Dragonboy 15 September, 2020 13:09
for god's sake play the ref - if they're allowing a free for all at the breakdown, compete and make it a mess. If the opposition is always a yard or two offside in the defensive line then why aren't we?

If the opposition is always a herd or two offside in their defensive line why is our captain not talking to the ref about it?

Re: Impact on Player Development
Sans Culottes 15 September, 2020 22:34
Quote:
Dragonboy
for god's sake play the ref - if they're allowing a free for all at the breakdown, compete and make it a mess. If the opposition is always a yard or two offside in the defensive line then why aren't we?
If the opposition is always a herd or two offside in their defensive line why is our captain not talking to the ref about it?

We have no one on the pitch communicating effectively with the ref.

We are therefore always on the losing side of marginal calls.

It costs territory , possession, points and games.

Re: Impact on Player Development
LeicesterSaint 16 September, 2020 11:23
Absolutely, perhaps we can add that to the search for silver linings - one of the younger players learning how to talk to the ref. Dylan was great at it (one obvious game aside!) and it's always frustrating to watch a team captained by a McCaw or Wyn Jones get those 50/50's but huge respect for them in being able to do that while blowing and battered! Having Woody and Waller back for the start of the new season will really help but how much longer will they go on?


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