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Loosehead injuries
Discussion started by BuckSt , 14 September, 2020 20:11
Loosehead injuries
BuckSt 14 September, 2020 20:11
Just thinking along with other problems we seem to have a long-standing issue over the last season with Loosehead injuries. Before COVID we were down to Gordon Reid as injury cover, now we have 4 injured, 2 with Achilles problems.

If any of you listen to EggChasers podcast a source that is linked to Sale seems to suggest Saints are doing things when setting up that mean they are going to ďbraceĒ rather then try to push forward - I wonder is this ďtechniqueĒ causing stress on the Achilles or other mechanical strains that increase the chance of injury specifically to a loosehead?

Re: Loosehead injuries
Buzzardsaint 14 September, 2020 21:14
There's a story by Chris Jones on the BBC site stating We may not be allowed to sign another loose head so the poor young lad may have to play 80 or its uncontested scrums and down to 14.... What a miserable Sunday this will be.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dragonboy 14 September, 2020 21:16
Just read on a google post that potentially if we have no loose head cover for Manny assuming he is our 1 on Sunday then if is injured we go down to 14. This is tantamount to forcing the club to name and play a 3 out of position at 1. Now I played 1 and sometimes 3 at Junior club level and the positions are totally different so this is potentially forcing someone to play out of position with all of the inherent safety implications. Apparently no changes to the squads are possible - even assuming someone was available fit and Covid free - after 1st September. So the rules rule to the detriment of safety issues it would seem. Iím actually thinking shame on the European organisers.

Re: Loosehead injuries
TringSaint 14 September, 2020 21:55
I was a LH and occasionally played hooker but never TH as I was very left leg biased, so my drive came from that side, so putting me on the TH side would have been marginally better than putting a winger in there. Plus I liked my ears and didnít fancy having two congealed lumps of gristle stuck to either side of my head!!

So simply dumping someone in that position is not good against a fully functioning scrum as they are more likely to get injured if they are way down on power (probably the main reason we have so many prop injuries Tbh).

I would absolutely take the loss of a man and remove all scrum penalties from the match and make the scrum nothing more than a league scrum and allow us to defend open play attacks.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saint Ted 14 September, 2020 21:55
EPC rules say that all matches must have full bench cover for the front row, EPC also have set a precedent for allowing medical jokers in exceptional circumstances.

Only having one fit loose head prop is exceptional circumstances.

But that doesnít make headlines.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dave Jackson 14 September, 2020 22:10
The problem surely is any potential Joker will not be Covid secure and have got through the testing and isolation protocols. Unless we used a player from another premiership team that is not involved in Europe this weekend as bench cover.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Exeforever 14 September, 2020 23:35
I'd rather that you borrowed loosehead cover from anyone except Saracens than that we went to uncontested scrums and only 14 Northampton players. We are in exceptional circumstances brought about by PRL/EPRC's insistence on completing the season rather than taking the domestic and European positions at the suspension of play in March, as we should have done IMO. I imagine that Ellis Genge and Marler (for examples) would relish a chance to have a go at Exe and as neither of their clubs are in a position of risk they should be available for a suitable fee...

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dave Jackson 15 September, 2020 08:09
Quote:
Exeforever
I'd rather that you borrowed loosehead cover from anyone except Saracens than that we went to uncontested scrums and only 14 Northampton players. We are in exceptional circumstances brought about by PRL/EPRC's insistence on completing the season rather than taking the domestic and European positions at the suspension of play in March, as we should have done IMO. I imagine that Ellis Genge and Marler (for examples) would relish a chance to have a go at Exe and as neither of their clubs are in a position of risk they should be available for a suitable fee...

Sarries clearly are already still in the competition so that will not happen. Likewise Leicester are in the challenge cup so no chance of Genge. But other teams have no match and as you say surely a short term loan is better than a farce of uncontested scrums

Re: Loosehead injuries
Flook 15 September, 2020 09:14
BBC

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 15 September, 2020 09:28
Given the scenario I can't see them sticking to the rules and not allowing us to bring someone in but as above - who? There are the COVID issues and then there are also contract/insurance issues, as much as I'd like to see Marler bring his boots at the weekend I'm sure it couldn't happen for many reasons - what if they got injured?

We will have to find someone or use a TH as you can't start the game without bench cover for front row, however (and no disrespect to Manny as I thought we did quite well) but I can see a yellow after a few scrum penalties resulting in either a TH out of position or a loanee coming on for the loss of a flanker and then potentially them also being carded so down to 14 and uncontested later in the game anyway.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saint Ted 15 September, 2020 10:09
EPC arenít going to let it be a scenario where we only have one loose head prop in the squad. Itís the quarter finals of the showcase cup of the season and they will want a decent match.

Best option given other restrictions will be to sign one of the Newcastle loose heads on loan who will be going through the same covid protocols as the rest of the prem

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saintsman94 15 September, 2020 10:38
A loosehead from Newcastle seems the best option for me too, assuming ERPC allow it. They are, presumably, in some sort of pre-season at the moment with no games other then pre-season friendlies coming up. I would have thought a win-win for Saints and Falcons to have one of their players, Sam Lockwood perhaps, getting some game time against one of the best team's in Europe.

Would be a whirlwind week for someone to come in, undergo the necessary covid protocols, learn lineout calls and be ready for the weekend mind. Gordan Reid might be a better option as he'll already know a number of those calls but I'm not sure what he's doing since being released.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Abington Adam 15 September, 2020 11:57
We're discussing this now, at around 4 days before the team is announced. Hasn't the time for a replacement to be brought in, train etc passed already?



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Re: Loosehead injuries
Scooby Saint COYS 15 September, 2020 12:03
Lockwood would be great. Unfortunately Iím not sure itís a risk-free decision for Falcons, because thereís going to be a sizeable jump in intensity between their pre-season and a European quarter final, with associated injury risks. But they might decide the benefits (prep for new season) outweigh the risks.

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 15 September, 2020 13:58
It does seem to be getting very late - my guess would be that we'll have to make do with a TH there. If EPCR are being difficult then there isn't time or money for a challenge. Even if they immediately said yes I think it would still have been pretty tough to get a contract done, insurance in place and leave at least some time to train with the squad.

I absolutely agree that we should fulfil every fixture with the best team available but can we really afford to throw money about on legals, contracts and insurance for a single game that, let's be honest, we'd have a very slim chance of winning even with a full roster the way we're playing at the moment.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saintsman94 15 September, 2020 13:59
It's definitely too late for conversations to be starting now. You would hope that if we're bringing in someone else the deals already been done and he (whoever they might be) is training on the back pitches of Franklins Gardens right now!

I agree Scooby Saint, certainly not without a risk if Falcons were to lend us a player but hopefully they would decide the reward outweighs that risk. Even from a financial stand-point, us paying them for Lockwood's services for a game or two might be incentive enough at the moment.... It might also not be financially viable for us.

Logistically and financially this is a bit of a nightmare situation for us but I firmly believe bringing in an extra body is a better decision than the alternatives. Switching a tighthead across or forcing Manny, who until last season was a number 8, to play 80 minutes against Williams and/or Francis seems far more dangerous. Should we have to play with 14 men for some of the game because of this, the whole thing becomes farcical. What a weird situation!

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saint Ted 15 September, 2020 14:14
You would hope conversations started last week when it was evident we were down to our last two loose heads, if they werenít weíve got bigger problems than whatís happening on the pitch

Re: Loosehead injuries
Sir Hector 15 September, 2020 21:32
How far away from fitness is Waller? Could he bench? Assuming injuries to Danny H-W, Nick A and Frans are all significant and they are unavailable.

Re: Loosehead injuries
twsaint 15 September, 2020 21:46
I suspect our physios are working hard to try to get one of those fit for Sunday. It won't be Danny.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Brackleysaint 16 September, 2020 07:14
I have a feeling we may start with Owen Franks at loosehead, I could well be wrong and often am!

Re: Loosehead injuries
twsaint 16 September, 2020 10:35
If there's no LH from outside, Owen might be the best option.

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 16 September, 2020 11:13
Pretty sure Waller isn't that close - I actually really hope not as the last thing he needs to is to go into a huge game 90% fit following a long lay-off. I also think we'll end up with Franks benching at loosehead, perhaps hoping Manny will play 80?

Re: Loosehead injuries
Chris Hoddle 16 September, 2020 11:45
It was reported our tight heads couldnít play loosehead in the bbc article. It maybe that the thought was we could make do with the two loosehead for the last games without having to bring in anyone. Then we had another injury. Really means it is impossible to bring some one in for Sunday but maybe for the last games in the prem?



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Re: Loosehead injuries
Le marseillais 16 September, 2020 11:59
Your troubles are known even in France !
[www.rugbyrama.fr]



ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saint Ted 16 September, 2020 13:07
Iíd put money on a loose head currently training with the squad that hasnít been announced yet and will be announced once EPC give the green light.

Wouldnít be the first time weíve had a player join up with the squad before itís announced

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 16 September, 2020 14:14
Amazingly it seems that EPCR are still deciding! Surely a quick email to all other clubs still involved, if no objections then fine. I'd assume that we've got someone training there as well as Franks so we've got both cases covered - the fear is that we get another injury although at least Prem rules allow for new registrations in the case of injury don't they?

Re: Loosehead injuries
Longers 16 September, 2020 15:11
What is the punishment for a no-show?

I had understood the regulations to state that a club must have a front row substitute for each the three positions, something the club clearly cannot meet.

So we cannot put out a team?

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 16 September, 2020 15:34
I believe the game is forfeit 28-0, not that the score matters in a knock-out game. Whether there would be any further sanction I don't know - it would seem harsh given that it isn't a situation of our creation but a combination of the concentrated fixture list and terrible luck.

I know a while back Newcastle had a similar issue, they started a loosehead at tighthead with no replacement tighthead. They had someone ready to play but EPCR refused (even though Edinburgh, their opponents confirmed they were fine with it)! I wonder whether their stance will change given a higher focus on player welfare, it would seem even more harsh on Newcastle in retrospect.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saint Ted 16 September, 2020 15:35
Not going to happen, itíll be in hand.

Neither the club nor EPC are going to not have everything in place that stops the quarter final of the top competition from happening.

Unless we canít field a squad through COVID.

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 16 September, 2020 16:25
Well as long as they've told Boyd et al that if not announced it publicly - the last thing we need is uncertainty until the last minute on top of everything else!

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dragonboy 16 September, 2020 20:12
Iím not convinced we will see Owen covering 1 because as already stated non of our 3ís are able to cover both sides of the scrum.

The techniques are totally different and props that can mix and match safely have always been rare on the ground.

The only ones I can think of are Jason Leonard. Ben Franks and Mulipola.

Iím pretty sure the club have had something lined up and in place since we lost Danny and Nic falling by the wayside and FVW joining them has just added the pressure As has been mentioned above though it sounds like its the ERC that are holding things up.

Re: Loosehead injuries
fatheralice 16 September, 2020 20:48
Why play van wyk in a meaningless game against Tigers given Boys is reported as being aware of the issues well beforehand?

The HCup SF was the only game that really mattered surely, and must take precedence over local bragging rights?

But then I'm not a saints fan, so probably don't get the East Midlands derby?!

Re: Loosehead injuries
Saint Ted 16 September, 2020 20:52
Quote:
fatheralice
Why play van wyk in a meaningless game against Tigers given Boys is reported as being aware of the issues well beforehand?
The HCup SF was the only game that really mattered surely, and must take precedence over local bragging rights?

But then I'm not a saints fan, so probably don't get the East Midlands derby?!

Because you need two looseheads in a match day squad, we only had two fit looseheads in our entire squad and one of those was from the academy

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dragonboy 16 September, 2020 22:20
[quote fatheralice]Why play van wyk in a meaningless game against Tigers given Boys is reported as being aware of the issues well beforehand?

Only other loose head is an academy 19 year old, who Until Saturday had not played in the premiership and had only moved to the front row 12 months ago.

Looking after player welfare and development is very important fatheralice, or do you think we should have started him at 1 against Dan Cole?

Re: Loosehead injuries
fatheralice 16 September, 2020 23:12
In reply, there is no restriction on recruiting loan cover in the prem ( salary cap aside) saving your registered LHP(s) for the euro match a week or two later, as the rules do not allow further registrations after the well published cut off dates.
( Or go uncontested in the league match, which is already over as a competition for Saints)

Seems common sense.

Yes it is unlucky to have further injury, but not too surprising imo.

Re: Loosehead injuries
fatheralice 16 September, 2020 23:16
And finally, why only try playing your THPs in training at this stage, rather than start preparing for the possibility they might be needed, and get some training time into them a week or two ago, to give them a chance to step up?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/09/2020 23:18 by fatheralice.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Toulousian Firefighter 17 September, 2020 07:43
We lost 3 LH in the space of 5 days. After we lost the first 2, I'm sure we were looking at recruiting another but, for the reasons stated above, this would have been difficult, especially for a few games.

From losing 2 LHs in the Bristol game, we would have had to recruit another 1 or 2, for the Leicester game 5 days later, to rest the non-injured 2 LHs for the Exeter game. Nice idea but very unlikely.

We may well have been trying THs at LH but given that it's rare that this is possible and we have had little training time to do this either way, it's clearly not been fruitful.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Brackleysaint 17 September, 2020 07:53
Out of interest can anyone remember what side of the scrum Brett Sturgess played?

Re: Loosehead injuries
PaulSaints 17 September, 2020 09:59
Quote:
fatheralice
And finally, why only try playing your THPs in training at this stage, rather than start preparing for the possibility they might be needed, and get some training time into them a week or two ago, to give them a chance to step up?

As a matter of interest is that something that clubs normally do? Is it something Chiefs do or have done prior to this season.

Your posts seem very "wise after the event" and somewhat smug to me which seems rather poor form but maybe that's just me.

Re: Loosehead injuries
LeicesterSaint 17 September, 2020 10:16
It used to be much more common for props to play both sides or at least be able to at a push, clearly Boyd may be playing the game somewhat but he called it a disaster when we tried in a training session.

I suppose you could try all new props to see if they can do it but the amount of times it would be useful are probably outweighed by them getting more practice/training in the position they're going to play every week. You could say that all players should practice their place kicking just in case of a Leicester/Cardiff penalty shoot out scenario but is it worth it for the likelihood (I could be wrong but that's the only instance I can ever remember of that rule being used so incredibly rare).

In any case I see EPCR have relented and we've got a 22 from Gloucester to cover the rest of the month.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dragonboy 17 September, 2020 11:37
Quote:
PaulSaints
Quote:
fatheralice
And finally, why only try playing your THPs in training at this stage, rather than start preparing for the possibility they might be needed, and get some training time into them a week or two ago, to give them a chance to step up?

As a matter of interest is that something that clubs normally do? Is it something Chiefs do or have done prior to this season.

Your posts seem very "wise after the event" and somewhat smug to me which seems rather poor form but maybe that's just me.

Paul I suspect his front row knowledge comes purely from being in the front row at the bar because his words suggest heís never put his head where it hurts.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Le marseillais 17 September, 2020 14:44
Right now, how many players of front row are available for next game ?
It's a bit confusing fot me.



ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dragonboy 17 September, 2020 16:00
Saints have 4 Senior specialist front row players for all three shirts.

We have 4 tight heads and 4 hookers available

All 4 senior loose heads are out injured so we only have a 19 year old academy player. He made his first team debut last week when he came off of the bench in the first half so effectively is last man standing so we had to bring a loan player in once ERC agreed to relax their registration rules otherwise we could not put a reserve front row on the bench on Sunday.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Le marseillais 17 September, 2020 17:14
Thank you Dragonboy.
Incredible situation, we are actually talking about you on our board.
What is the name of this loan player please ?



ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter

Re: Loosehead injuries
Dragonboy 19 September, 2020 07:48
Alex Seville and heís on loan to us for the remainder of the season. Heís a former England U20 player and early 20ís. Heís coming to us from Gloucester.

Re: Loosehead injuries
Le marseillais 19 September, 2020 14:36
Thank you.
Good luck.



ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter


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