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Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Discussion started by Brackleysaint , 15 September, 2020 18:21
Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Brackleysaint 15 September, 2020 18:21

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Deesaint 15 September, 2020 19:06
Young guy bristles with indication that someone would raise concerns over losing streak

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
SuffolkSaint 15 September, 2020 19:08
He didn’t bristle at that - he bristled at the suggestion that the players are not trying and don’t care.

Quite justified - some of the@#$%&written in here and else where has been a absolute joke. It’s like a football forum

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
twsaint 15 September, 2020 19:33
Quote:
SuffolkSaint
He didn’t bristle at that - he bristled at the suggestion that the players are not trying and don’t care.
Quite justified - some of the@#$%&written in here and else where has been a absolute joke. It’s like a football forum


Absolutely right Suffolk. However they'll all come on now and tell us we're wrong.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
andysaint 15 September, 2020 19:56
A players desire or effort should never be questioned. Considering what their bodies go through and that it’s nigh on impossible to play this game without the effort and desire needed it is an insult and Lewis is right there.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
TringSaint 15 September, 2020 20:24
Ok, if they are putting in 100% then show us, as the pictures of players standing still, hands on hips 10m out from our try line defending a rolling maul don’t lie.

Lewis, I’m sure, puts 100% in, but I fear that there are plenty of others who are operating around the 80% mark.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Helmet and sack 15 September, 2020 20:28
It surprises me how reticent people can be to allow people their opinions on a message board which is about the voicing of opinions. Whether people think players are trying it not, it's up to them to say it. Austin Healey, among others, have had their say. Why not fans on here? Theres obviously a reason people think there's a lack of effort, whether it is true or not. Some people just love to follow and be happy. Others enjoy being critical. I'm afraid you've just got to suck it up; the players have to too.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
SuffolkSaint 15 September, 2020 21:05
Quote:
Helmet and sack
It surprises me how reticent people can be to allow people their opinions on a message board which is about the voicing of opinions. Whether people think players are trying it not, it's up to them to say it. Austin Healey, among others, have had their say. Why not fans on here? Theres obviously a reason people think there's a lack of effort, whether it is true or not. Some people just love to follow and be happy. Others enjoy being critical. I'm afraid you've just got to suck it up; the players have to too.

The point is, its ignorant and wrong! Opinions are fine, like @#$%&, everyone has one, but saying someone isn't trying or doesn't care is a personal slur on someone like Lewis who puts his body on the line week in week out for your pleasure. Would you stand in front of any single one of these lads and tell them face to face you don't think they care or that they're not trying? So why do it hiding behind a key board like a coward. And if you think you would do it face to face, then don't just say it - do it. They're all accessible, you know where they are Monday to Friday, get down there and back it up! I don't see a queue at the gates !

The fact is form and confidence are low and slagging everyone off with personal slurs doesn't help get out of that hole, it just adds to the sense of pressure - its counter productive. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Helmet and sack 15 September, 2020 21:19
I'm not sure you can be sure about anything. To say it's wrong is just your opinion. For what it's worth, your opinion doesn't really mean much to me. I enjoy reading it as that's the point of this board. People have formed an opinion on the efforts of the players. They have expressed it in the best place to do so. Personally, I'm not sure either way. It's really not ignorant of them to suggest players aren't trying. Perhaps some of them aren't? Lewis is hardly likely to start slagging his team mates off. Just don't get so annoyed about people expressing themselves if it doesn't fit your narrative.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
SuffolkSaint 15 September, 2020 21:21
Quote:
Helmet and sack
I'm not sure you can be sure about anything. To say it's wrong is just your opinion. For what it's worth, your opinion doesn't really mean much to me. I enjoy reading it as that's the point of this board. People have formed an opinion on the efforts of the players. They have expressed it in the best place to do so. Personally, I'm not sure either way. It's really not ignorant of them to suggest players aren't trying. Perhaps some of them aren't? Lewis is hardly likely to start slagging his team mates off. Just don't get so annoyed about people expressing themselves if it doesn't fit your narrative.

helmet and sack....very apt - don't take it personally, just my opinion

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Helmet and sack 15 September, 2020 21:22
I expected that kind of response.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
TimperleySaint 15 September, 2020 21:28
I think it is more complex and nuanced. I am 100% sure the players were absolutely gassed on Sunday and effort was 100%.

However we viewers/supporters/fans saw a defensive line slow to move up, players jogging round the pitch, a lack of 'intensity' compares to the opposition.

Which leads us back to the discussed point of it being a mental thing rather than a physical.

But why? I agree with other commentators that something seems to have happened behind the scenes.

I don't think our team is poor. I think our forwards are good, providing we play as per game plan. Our scrum earlier in the season held its own (will never win penalties), our forwards carried off quick ball and made ground and cleared out rucks quickly. Our line out has been a bit shaky all season.

Our backs can be excellent but are struggling with a game plan not working.

How to turn is around? Million dollar question.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Helmet and sack 15 September, 2020 21:37
Quote:
TimperleySaint
I think it is more complex and nuanced. I am 100% sure the players were absolutely gassed on Sunday and effort was 100%.
However we viewers/supporters/fans saw a defensive line slow to move up, players jogging round the pitch, a lack of 'intensity' compares to the opposition.

Which leads us back to the discussed point of it being a mental thing rather than a physical.

But why? I agree with other commentators that something seems to have happened behind the scenes.

I don't think our team is poor. I think our forwards are good, providing we play as per game plan. Our scrum earlier in the season held its own (will never win penalties), our forwards carried off quick ball and made ground and cleared out rucks quickly. Our line out has been a bit shaky all season.

Our backs can be excellent but are struggling with a game plan not working.

How to turn is around? Million dollar question.

It would certainly make more sense for it to be less of an effort issue as something else. Mentally subdued for a whole host of potential reasons. Body language is an interesting thing. I'm sure a sports psych could add value to that lead. When we've been battering down the door and come away with nothing (one dimensional play i.m.o) that must be excruciatingly deflating.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
TringSaint 15 September, 2020 22:08
Not sure I buy into the ‘something in the back room is not good’ message. These are professional rugby players and they should be of a sufficient calibre to enable them to perform whatever issues are going on in the background.

I don’t always agree with my management and they seem to be more of a sales prevention team most of the time, but they never stop me from doing what I need to do (even though I may be cheesed off with them!).

Equally, if they feel that the coaching and tactics are carp then the senior players need to stand up and make their views known.

If there are issues behind the scenes then players like Dan, Lewis, Courts, Franks etc need to step up and lead the youngsters in the right direction.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Deesaint 16 September, 2020 07:21
Always taught that the first steps to overcoming a problem is to acknowledge that it is there

You would expect nothing less from a young guy defending his team mates, what’s the alternative criticising other players

I just think it was very poor for saints marketing to allow it to be published , saying basically that nothing is wrong and the team are full on in every game against what supporters are watching every game doesn’t gel

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
ajack 16 September, 2020 08:36
I guess it comes down to what you call not putting the effort in? I doubt many think that every game is played at test match intensity and everyone comes off unable to give any more, however in a competition where many matches are won by a couple of percent difference a slight drop off can give the impression of "not trying".

The example given of letting players score under the posts once they have crossed the line is a good one. Putting in effort to make the kick harder might only result in one kick in four being missed and is unlikely to effect the result, however doing all those little things over and over all game is exactly what separates winning teams from losing teams. It is hard to do but you can always put in more effort however low confidence is.

I certainly would not say Saints are not trying at the minute but they look like a beaten side most of the time. I would love someone to come out and say what is really wrong rather than just confidence is low all the time. I doubt many people really believe that.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Saint Matt 16 September, 2020 08:51
Quote:
Deesaint
...saying basically that nothing is wrong and the team are full on in every game against what supporters are watching every game doesn’t gel

I don't think he's saying nothing is wrong, I think he's gone about as far as he can without criticising individuals, which as you rightly say, would be really poor.
"We're a team that's low on confidence..."
"..walk into the changing room post-game it's not a happy place to be"
"We're trying a bit too hard"
"We're lacking a little bit of composure and smarts about us"

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Longers 16 September, 2020 09:20
What is said in public, is one thing.

What is said behind closed doors, is another.

On the argument of accusations that people are not giving 100%, again, it is very simple. Take the data from the early games, and compare to the last few. That will tell us loud and clear, what the real situation is.

As for effort. Hard work does not lead to success. Ask anyone who came second. I think we need to slow down a bit (!) and think about what we're doing.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Scooby Saint COYS 16 September, 2020 09:41
As an aside- I thought it was interesting that Lewis made a comment that "In training, we're pushing ourselves and demanding standards more than ever and it's not a comfortable place to be.”

By way of contrast, Steve Diamond was recently quoted as saying that “the training in the week has gone to zero, so the amount of stress their bodies are taking is less than it normally is." [www.google.co.uk]

Clearly, this also relates to Saints and Sale having had different selection approaches (and Sale’s own recent form has been variable). But nevertheless, interesting to get the sense of quite different approaches to training going on.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
LeicesterSaint 16 September, 2020 10:15
I think the issue is a conflation of effort and intensity. I have absolutely no doubt that the players are putting in 100% effort in for both games and training. However intensity is down to many factors - mainly psychological. The energy saps of being in the red zone for ages and not scoring, getting penalised in promising situations, giving away intercepts and turnovers etc are a big problem. Likewise confidence both in themselves but also in the game plan and structure. For example - there are several players who stand out defensively as they go out hunting and putting pressure on (usually 10's) - think Farrell, Faf etc. However they can only do that with confidence in the structure and their teammates - otherwise you end up looking pretty stupid a lot of the time or just wasting effort. Likewise kick-chases, chargedowns, defensive alignment etc.

I wouldn't expect that players come on here but I would hope that some posters think about how comments are phrased along those lines. Without getting into the wider discussion around cancel culture - yes everyone has the right to an opinion and a right to express it and it is understandable that right now there is a lot of negative sentiment. It's been mentioned a few times before but I think a good acid test is whether you would say it in person (in the same way). There's a big difference between saying the team or x,y z player looks tired or isn't playing to their full potential and saying they're rubbish, not trying or should be dropped/sacked/hung drawn and quartered.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Tidy 16 September, 2020 12:00
Didnt the players all come out and back Jim etc when it was all going down hill? Only after he'd gone we got to know a bit about what was going on behind the scenes

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
chappers_saint 16 September, 2020 13:36
Hes right about leadership. They have a lot of players who lead from the front on the charge. However he also admitted that they haven't been as vocal as they have been which brings in the decision making, on field nous and sweet talking the ref. I think that's really hurt us.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
John Tee 16 September, 2020 16:59
Imv, Saints have lost momentum and cant stop a bad run of results.
Have the players mentally switched off knowing they are safe..? maybe, and they arent alone.
However, i dont think many sportsmen cant be bothered...but it is that top 5 or 10% mentally that makes the difference.

Covid and relegation being pre determined means it is bery hard.
Once reason why i dont want to see ring fencing.

Time to regroup and recupe for next season.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
smitferbrainz 16 September, 2020 17:14
This is what I’d expect to see in the press. If he made these comments (and I wonder quite honestly how much of this came from the media department rather than the player himself) I would not expect to see any other opinion or answers to whatever the questions the reporter (Tom Vickers?) asked. He’s not likely to say words to the affect of “no, no one really cares about the way we’re playing” or “well we’re unlikely to win more games so we’re not that bothered”. He’s not likely to say anything like that even if he thinks it. Such comments made in the press are valueless in my opinion. They add nothing. The evidence is on the pitch. Several posters alluded to actions on the pitch about the players which suggested that, in some, their attitude on the pitch may be questionable. Healey watches a lot of games, he’s “in the know” and his knowledge about how we are playing, what it looks like etc is highly relevant. He’s only comparing us against the other teams. So, in summary, it doesn’t matter what Lewis Ludlam says in the press. Boyd’s opinion and his embarrassment stated in the press is probably of more relevance.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
HammerSaint 16 September, 2020 17:28
Lewis is rightly annoyed as he IS giving 100% IMHO, however he stands out like a sore thumb at the moment.

If you have played sport to any level, if you feel that things aren't right, whether that's poor play from others, you don't believe in the system or coaching/tactics, mentally your head can go down, even though you THINK you are giving everything. There were certain players I played with where knew the ball wasn't coming as they didn't have the abilty to give it, I wouldn't make the run as I almost knew the move would break down. Is that not giving everything, maybe?

When you have a Reinach, Manoa, Picamoles, Hartley, you know that they will punch holes, be inspirational and you'll follow them for the ball and be on the front foot, I really don't think we have that type of player now and when you consider we are spent up to the salary cap, you wonder if we have gone for 7/8 average signings rather than 3/4 outstanding ones. My opinion is we need this type of player to raise confidence levels which inevitably breeds more confidence and effort, we have needed a top class 8 since King Louis, but Management seem blind to this.

As an analogy, I compete in triathalons and if I've put in the work, suit the course (I like hills!) and feel confident and can see I'm "competing" I'll drive myself harder and at the finish, strangely I don't feel tired at all, however if I'm not in the running I can curl up into a ball exhausted at the finish, that's where I feel Saints are at present, yes there is effort but without class all that effort is Bl**dy hard work!

Mr Darbon please bring back Louis!!

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Saintly Pursuit 16 September, 2020 18:55
Picamoles had a pretty serious knee injury a few months back. I wouldn't be suprised if he has retired.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Aberavon Wizard 16 September, 2020 19:29
Supporters, particuarly those who buy the tickets, have an absolute right to express an opinion be it good or bad.

I don't buy the theory that players don't give a 100% or very nearly one hundred per cent because to do so in rugby will increase the
chance of injury.

We may not have the strongest squad but we certainly have plenty of proven and potential talent.

The conundrum is the how or why the team is under-performing weel in week out. To some extent this has to be down
to Chris Boyd's selection policy post lockdown which by his own admission has not worked.

In my view the problem lies in the players heads. We are not making the right calls àt the right time. We go for the corner when easy points are on offer. We do not go through the phases often enough and pull the trigger too quickly. We gift opposition the ball too easily.

The key to me is leadership. We have players who lead by example but we do not appear to have a natural captain. Ludlam may develop into a formidable Captain but like others is some way away from that position as yet.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Hollywood JK 16 September, 2020 21:48
Completely agree with some observations. Words are cheap, Actions much more powerful.

And to be fair was Lewis ever going to give a different answer to what he said?

The facts are they are on their worst home run for 16 years. We’ve all seen them not tracking back to stop teams scoring under the posts.

Pay cut or not, they are very well paid professionals, and they have not played with anywhere near enough intensity for 80 minutes..

Hopefully the so called social media feedback is a kick up the backside for them, as I’m pretty sure a few more opinions and verbals would be coming at them from 15000 supporters at Franklin’s Gardens!

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
PaulSaints 17 September, 2020 09:42
Quote:
LeicesterSaint
I think the issue is a conflation of effort and intensity. I have absolutely no doubt that the players are putting in 100% effort in for both games and training. However intensity is down to many factors - mainly psychological.

I'd certainly agree that's part of it and so is a conflation of effort and effectiveness. Especially when things aren't working you can understand that individuals might try and sort problems themselves that really need to be sorted as a team. The result is often a less effective performance as players duplicate the work of others and don't do some things they should be doing themselves.

I know that as a player you probably can't say "I couldn't be bothered today" but why shouldn't players have days like that like everyone else does? I have a job I enjoy and am pretty good at but I know there are days when I've not given it my best or have been tetchy with colleges or even just struggled because my daughter kept me awake the night before, etc All of that strikes me as normal so why shouldn't the same apply to our players?

Pat Lam said something very interesting about that he would never blame a player for failing to execute a skill but would always pull up a player for a lack of effort. My feeling is Boyd is very much in the first camp and the fact he has empowered a group of youngsters to play what they see was surely a large part of why we had success in the first part of the season. My question would be whether Boyd makes players accoutable in the second case. Many of us have observed that "no skill" basics just aren't being done and that's something that has to be addressed.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
NobbyClarke 17 September, 2020 12:28
Impossible for any player to play at 100% intensity for 80mins, and a bit crazy to expect it. You can be 100% effective at much lower levels of effort and that is the bit we are missing!

Think of Hutch earlier in the season, moving with a measured stride, certainly not 100% flat out, but pinging balls left and right! and definitely effective. Is our problem too much effort and not enough time to execute effectively? Definite issue to address but I still believe there is too much talent and potential in this side for it not to click eventually. Patience on the field and patience on the terrace? It will come.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Saint Stokey 17 September, 2020 14:52
I'm glad that Lewis has come out an publically made these comments. It shows that the team is clearly hurting and their mood is reflecting those of the supporters.

Hopefully the collective anger will aide us against the monumental task ahead of us.

Still, we're in the fortunate position where we can drop further in the league than 8th... well, barring some devastating performances from Worcester.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Hollywood JK 17 September, 2020 18:41
Quote:
Saint Stokey
I'm glad that Lewis has come out an publically made these comments. It shows that the team is clearly hurting and their mood is reflecting those of the supporters.
Hopefully the collective anger will aide us against the monumental task ahead of us.

Still, we're in the fortunate position where we can drop further in the league than 8th... well, barring some devastating performances from Worcester.
.
That’s not actually correct. If Leicester win the challenge cup, then the top tier of the European tournament only goes down to 7th place. The Tigers would take the 8th place. Fingers crossed as I’m not sure we will find another win this season...

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Awaywin 17 September, 2020 20:45
I find this a really interesting one. To me giving 100 per cent mentally and physically all the time is what you want from a professional sorts person and is what comes with most competitive sport people. Admittedly your output in the 80th minute will not be the same as that in the first minute but it doesn’t mean you are putting in less effort. I attach the physical and the mental performance factors together because you can’t be putting 100 per cent in if you are cutting corners on one or the other.

If Lewis and a number of people on this forum are in agreement then you have to look at the technical and tactical side of why we aren’t performing. This then calls into question the ability of the players and the coaches ability to develop them as well as their ability to coach and carry out tactics.

I think we are somewhere in the middle of all of this. Take Pier’s interview on the Saints Show. Words to the effect of ‘if we nullify a few of Exeter’s strength and bring out a game we will cause them some problems.’ This doesn’t show a great deal of belief to me.

I think the talent with in the squad isn’t developing at a rate compared with that elsewhere in the league, meaning we could be trying our hardest and developing but other teams are going at a greater rate. Or we have taken our foot off the gas after last season. Taking a look at a few positions we can see where we are compared to others in the league.

Flanker. Lewis was a bolted for the World Cup squad. Now I doubt he gets into the next squad. If he does he has to oust a Curry, Willis, Underhill, Earl, Dombrant or Wilson.

Fly-half. Many were disappointed when Grayson wasn’t picked in the England squad other Umaga. However, Umaga, Smith, Simmons, Malins etc so far ahead of him now.

Hooker. If we still had Dylan we would be marginally competing with the teams that had Jamie George’s it Cowan-Dickie’s however we have noticed a massive drop of since his retirement and this amplified by the drop off to the number 2 hooker to Hartley.

If they are giving 100 per cent something is wrong because it isn’t good enough and that is being proved with the results.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
PaulSaints 17 September, 2020 22:12
You make some very good points Awaywin but its also perhaps worth pointing out that competition has never been stronger in the backrow or for young talent at 10. So whilst its true there's some drop off the standard expected is also getting higher.

My feeling is we are entering an era of backrowers like we have previously had with locks for England where some International quality players won't be capped simply because of the log-jam of quality in front of them. Sucks for the player but potentially good news for the club.


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