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Next season squad
Discussion started by mkersyshull , 20 September, 2020 20:00
Next season squad
mkersyshull 20 September, 2020 20:00
I know we announced our squad for the restart and next season, but are we able to add to that (if thereís room in the cap)

Re: Next season squad
SaintsAsh 20 September, 2020 20:03
I don't think we will add to it unless there are injuries.

Re: Next season squad
TimperleySaint 20 September, 2020 20:04
No chance unless we need injury replacement

Re: Next season squad
Walks11 20 September, 2020 20:10
Quote:
mkersyshull
I know we announced our squad for the restart and next season, but are we able to add to that (if thereís room in the cap)

Yes is the answer... will we? is a slightly different question which the posters above have answered

Re: Next season squad
Dragonboy 20 September, 2020 20:13
We can in theory but the fact that we had to let Jamie go shows thereís no cash left under the cap so our squad is what it is other than long term injury dispensations for medical jokers.

Commentary referred to our loose head absentees as being long term injuries so I would guess work is going on ahead of next season to bring someone or sometwo in.

Re: Next season squad
Hollywood JK 20 September, 2020 20:29
I would like us to add some more beef to the back row. We donít have enough cover or pure physical power!

Iím sorry to say our pack no longer dominates..

Re: Next season squad
Duckonstilts 20 September, 2020 20:43
Quote:
Hollywood JK
I would like us to add some more beef to the back row. We donít have enough cover or pure physical power!
Iím sorry to say our pack no longer dominates..

Adenorf looks decent for pure beef.
Wood will be back. Lewis and Harrison punch above their weight.

Re: Next season squad
Longers 20 September, 2020 20:54
On the theme of pure beef, did anyone watch Tolouse V Ulster?

That Toulouse front five was a little bit big!

When considering our squad, we need to consider whether we want to play in Europe or not. The Premiership may become simply a stepping stone, in which case, we need pure beef!

No vegetarians need apply!!*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/09/2020 20:55 by Longers.

Re: Next season squad
Scooby Saint COYS 20 September, 2020 22:15
I think recruitment should reflect the style we want to play- but unfortunately Iím not 100% I know what that is. If we want to be a team that physically dominates others, we need big, collision-dominating players. If we want to be a mobile team, we need breakdown specialists.

Re: Next season squad
St Marcus 20 September, 2020 23:01
Quote:
Duckonstilts
Quote:
Hollywood JK
I would like us to add some more beef to the back row. We donít have enough cover or pure physical power!
Iím sorry to say our pack no longer dominates..

Adenorf looks decent for pure beef.
Wood will be back. Lewis and Harrison punch above their weight.

We have some good players but don't you thing they are all really quite similar? Lots of 6 and 6.5s and not much else with a chronic lack of power options.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/09/2020 23:04 by St Marcus.

Re: Next season squad
Saint Maul 20 September, 2020 23:50
It's no a coincidence that all four teams that have made the Heineken Cup semi-finals have powerful packs.

But we've got our squad for next season so whilst I'd agree we need to bolster our forward power, it's going to be September 2021 before we can make any significant changes and then only with players out of contract who we may want to keep.

Re: Next season squad
shiversaint 21 September, 2020 08:45
Quote:
Scooby Saint COYS
I think recruitment should reflect the style we want to play- but unfortunately Iím not 100% I know what that is. If we want to be a team that physically dominates others, we need big, collision-dominating players. If we want to be a mobile team, we need breakdown specialists.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there.

I've had this burgeoning theory in my mind that our problem stems from the team being given too much playing freedom. It works when the passes link up and a few games are won as confidence is high which always seems to improve execution no matter the team, but when on the backfoot we look to be playing a hybrid of game structures without really knowing which one to stick to.

That says to me that our gameplan is largely "play as you like it", which gets progressively more incoherent as things start to go wrong and results in a lot of what we've seen in the past few months.

I have a bad feeling this is happening to our young coaches too, whereas right now they really need a leading and uniting force. This of course all points to Boyd and whilst I'm not in the camp of calling for his head, I do think he needs to consider a different approach.

As someone else said on this forum a few weeks ago, we need to stop trying to play like a Kiwi side! We will never get front foot ball without a more coherent pack in the tight and loose. That's just a fact of English rugby and has been demonstrated many many times by several different teams over the years.

Re: Next season squad
ajack 21 September, 2020 08:46
Quote:
Saint Maul
It's no a coincidence that all four teams that have made the Heineken Cup semi-finals have powerful packs.
But we've got our squad for next season so whilst I'd agree we need to bolster our forward power, it's going to be September 2021 before we can make any significant changes and then only with players out of contract who we may want to keep.

It is no coincidence that all four teams that have made the semi final do lots of things well. Any team with a hope of going anywhere do so with a solid defence as the starting point. Once again yesterday our defence especially in the backs was paper thin at best, until we sort that it won't matter what sort of pack we have.

We actually more than held our own in the forwards yesterday I thought. Our scrum certainly wasn't dominant but by and large held its own and got more penalties for than in any game I can remember for a while. We made a complete mess of their lineout and actually scored an "Exeter" try from our own. We were able to dominate the possession stats , something that Exeter very much base their game around, we more than competed up front against one of the best teams in Europe.

Obviously things can always be better but until we have a credible defence nothing else will matter much.

Re: Next season squad
Walks11 21 September, 2020 09:47
Quote:
shiversaint
Quote:
Scooby Saint COYS
I think recruitment should reflect the style we want to play- but unfortunately Iím not 100% I know what that is. If we want to be a team that physically dominates others, we need big, collision-dominating players. If we want to be a mobile team, we need breakdown specialists.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there.

I've had this burgeoning theory in my mind that our problem stems from the team being given too much playing freedom. It works when the passes link up and a few games are won as confidence is high which always seems to improve execution no matter the team, but when on the backfoot we look to be playing a hybrid of game structures without really knowing which one to stick to.

That says to me that our gameplan is largely "play as you like it", which gets progressively more incoherent as things start to go wrong and results in a lot of what we've seen in the past few months.

I have a bad feeling this is happening to our young coaches too, whereas right now they really need a leading and uniting force. This of course all points to Boyd and whilst I'm not in the camp of calling for his head, I do think he needs to consider a different approach.

As someone else said on this forum a few weeks ago, we need to stop trying to play like a Kiwi side! We will never get front foot ball without a more coherent pack in the tight and loose. That's just a fact of English rugby and has been demonstrated many many times by several different teams over the years.

Re: Next season squad
Longers 21 September, 2020 11:14
I don't share this big = lumbering/poor movers.

Nor do I believe that small = unable to dominate.

Mako Vunipola is a mover. So are the Toulouse props. So is their second row. Brad Thorne was surprisingly lightly built(relatively speaking)
Tom Curry is small, but when he hits you, you stay hit. (So was Wilkinson for that matter and was a fly half - and they don't tackle!)

We need attitiude!

Re: Next season squad
LeicesterSaint 21 September, 2020 12:16
It's all about the physics - a smaller player can hit harder than a bigger one if moving faster, however the angles are all important, drive up into a player and they have no purchase. Equally you will produce much more stopping force head on, hence small tip ons etc essential for making ground in close quarters, Courts is great at it but it is riskier than latching where no pass in involved.

Some of our missed tackles did just look weak but some were a result of good footwork, it's nigh on impossible to make a decent tackle when off balance and with modern shorts the chances of getting a hold are minimal. I get the feeling that defence isn't an aspect that Hutch enjoys much, I appreciate the desire to get ball in hand and show some skill but sometimes you've got to put your head where it hurts to earn that.

Re: Next season squad
SaintsAsh 21 September, 2020 12:18
Quote:
Longers
I don't share this big = lumbering/poor movers.
Nor do I believe that small = unable to dominate.

Mako Vunipola is a mover. So are the Toulouse props. So is their second row. Brad Thorne was surprisingly lightly built(relatively speaking)
Tom Curry is small, but when he hits you, you stay hit. (So was Wilkinson for that matter and was a fly half - and they don't tackle!)

We need attitiude!

We had attitude yesterday and that is usually 90% of defense. I think Proctor and Frances would have made a huge difference in that area.

Re: Next season squad
Longers 21 September, 2020 12:22
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Quote:
Longers
I don't share this big = lumbering/poor movers.
Nor do I believe that small = unable to dominate.

Mako Vunipola is a mover. So are the Toulouse props. So is their second row. Brad Thorne was surprisingly lightly built(relatively speaking)
Tom Curry is small, but when he hits you, you stay hit. (So was Wilkinson for that matter and was a fly half - and they don't tackle!)

We need attitiude!

We had attitude yesterday and that is usually 90% of defense. I think Proctor and Frances would have made a huge difference in that area.

Some had attitude. For some of the time. Perhaps I should have added "+ intensity" as well? And, of course, there are the exceptions, at both ends of the spectrum.

And you mention Francis - I find it strange that he hasn't featured in our "first" team recently. He is one of the best organisers we have out back.

Re: Next season squad
craig84 21 September, 2020 12:24
As the breakdown is a big part of the game, maybe we need to look to employ a specialist to work with our guys, maybe even look at making Lewis an out and out 7.
Look at Willis at wasps, the amount of turnovers he is getting winning penalties, stopping attacks and turning defence into attack is game changing!

Re: Next season squad
Deesaint 21 September, 2020 13:24
We have two great loose forwards
Harrison and Ludlum
They should be causing the same sort of havoc that Wills (2) and Young are creating at Wasps
As a matter of interest who would coach breakdown skills at Saints.

As an aside interesting to note that the Irish teams are suffering through the breakdown laws changing
No more side entry, sealing off, off the feat, lying in the ball etc etc
Really has hit them hard

Re: Next season squad
andysaint 21 September, 2020 13:28
For me our biggest issue is at prop and hooker. At prop we have some good quality cover but we are lacking big game players. Van Wyk, Waller, Danny, Mikey and Hill can come in and do a job but wonít dominate their opposite number. Franks I would have hoped for so much better. Fish Marshall and Painter are all work in progress.

I donít think that they are as mobile as the likes of Thacker, they are not hard nosed bully boy front rowers such as Afoa or Cole they are not big leaders and they are not carriers like Vunipola. Apart from that I donít think our squad is that bad. We have the skills in the backs if we can get some confidence back and good bill. We know Ribbans, Nick, Wood, Ludlam and Harrison are first 15 players.

Re: Next season squad
ajack 21 September, 2020 13:30
What does go against the current way of thinking is neither Exeter or Sarries play with an out and out openside and they are still the two best teams in England by a comfortable distance.

Re: Next season squad
LeicesterSaint 21 September, 2020 13:39
All about the balance - you can have an out and out 7 but then the rest of the pack need to pick up some slack in terms of graft, potentially more risky as if the ref on the day or the evolution of laws from season to season makes them less effective, more penalised etc it'll have a big impact. Or go without an out and out 7 and let everyone be on the lookout for turnovers, or just make the breakdown such a mess/scrap that you get turnovers that way rather than jackals.

Re: Next season squad
Stockers 21 September, 2020 14:22
Quote:
Longers
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Quote:
Longers
I don't share this big = lumbering/poor movers.
Nor do I believe that small = unable to dominate.

Mako Vunipola is a mover. So are the Toulouse props. So is their second row. Brad Thorne was surprisingly lightly built(relatively speaking)
Tom Curry is small, but when he hits you, you stay hit. (So was Wilkinson for that matter and was a fly half - and they don't tackle!)

We need attitiude!

We had attitude yesterday and that is usually 90% of defense. I think Proctor and Frances would have made a huge difference in that area.

And you mention Francis - I find it strange that he hasn't featured in our "first" team recently. He is one of the best organisers we have out back.

Injured shin apparently Longers.

Re: Next season squad
Awaywin 21 September, 2020 14:42
Quote:
LeicesterSaint
All about the balance - you can have an out and out 7 but then the rest of the pack need to pick up some slack in terms of graft, potentially more risky as if the ref on the day or the evolution of laws from season to season makes them less effective, more penalised etc it'll have a big impact. Or go without an out and out 7 and let everyone be on the lookout for turnovers, or just make the breakdown such a mess/scrap that you get turnovers that way rather than jackals.

I would like to see us develop several players who are effective over the ball. It is a risk having one phenomenal player, say a Willis, if they are injured or called up the team could be exposed. Far better to have people from all over the park being comfortable and skilled at competing for the ball.

Re: Next season squad
ajack 21 September, 2020 15:20
Apparently Sale only let the Curry brothers try to jackal the ball wanting specialists to do the job, Sarries don't play an out and out openside but you will see the likes of Koch, Itoje and George all turning over ball in this way. There is no right or wrong way it is all about getting systems in place that work best for the players you have .

We have no need to follow what others do we simply need to improve what we do. Pretty much every strength is also a weakness, for example huge lumps in the second row that push well are just what you don't want to be lifting for lineout ball.

Re: Next season squad
Hymenoptera 21 September, 2020 15:44
Quote:
ajack
What does go against the current way of thinking is neither Exeter or Sarries play with an out and out openside and they are still the two best teams in England by a comfortable distance.

Not really as they have a distinct game plan you can sit here and describe. Sarries play territory and pressure with their box kick plays. Exeter the power, set piece and control game. Neither require an out right openside/jackler as neither require turnover ball to either stifle the opposition or execute their own play systems.
A team like Wasps don't have a large powerful pack, they don't dominate teams, don't play territory, control or possession..their whole mantra is about working off turnover ball both in attack and defence and the open field play that creates. If you can nullify this you have them beat as they don't excel in any other area's.
You have to have a clear strategy and build your team around that. Boyd's play appears to be around quick ball for the backs but he doesn't have a strategy for getting quick ball. Saints back row is horrible unbalanced and has work horses but no game changers and no one compliments another. Lots of the same will get you the same. Adenorf looks a prospect but he needs that 8 jersey to himself...and the question I have is the continued playing of Courtney a 6 because the 2nd row is so strong he can't command a spot there or because the back row is weak..?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/09/2020 16:21 by Hymenoptera.

Re: Next season squad
Longers 21 September, 2020 15:50
Stockers - thank you.

(Sm128)

Re: Next season squad
mkersyshull 04 October, 2020 15:13
I wonder if thereís any room to get Wigglesworth in as a player coach for next season?
How does that work with salary cap?


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