Worcester Warriors
The End User - The Customer
By JP
October 13 2022
The End User – The Customer
Let’s start with a few home truths about professional Rugby Union in England.
As supporter’s of Premiership Rugby Clubs we are what the game is for!
We are the end user, the customer, the person who without there would be no Professional Rugby in this country!
We are thee most important cog in this professional sporting business!
Never mind the owners, the sponsors, the investors, the Media, important though they undoubtedly are, if the product is not what we want to pay for then it is not saleable.
You don’t have a viable business
Yes of course the words roll off the tongue and in the ideal word they would be all you need to know to base your business on, but we live in the real world.
We need the owners, the investors, the sponsors and the media, it is a joint enterprise where all parties need to be satisfied, their ambitions realised. But you must realise we all need an input, we all need to be part of the planning to achieve success for all and a sustainable business.
Everyone has to remember, it is sport! It is the entertainment business. People don’t need it, they don’t have to have it for their basic needs. It is a recreation in which we compete with many other recreational outlets who are all trying to relieve the customer of their hard earned money.
The Rugby Premiership is run by The PRL, they own 73% of the business with CVC owning the other 27% and it is not in a good place. This may be due to many factors, Covid, Club organisation, league organisation, planning, leadership the product.
Supporters All Singing From The Same Hym Sheet!!!
We the supporter, the end user, the customer have to be considered in the future path The PRL and The Clubs take.
What do we want, what ideas have we got, what do we feel will improve the product?
Don’t just sit back in you boardroom and tell us what you intend to give us, because it might not be what we want and we will spend our hard earned cash elsewhere. Ask us, talk to us, find out what the paying public want from a Professional Sport.
Without us you do not have a business!
Premiership Rugby Needs to Find Its U.S.P.
"What is OUR Unique Selling Proposition?"
"What is OUR point of difference?"
Please feel free as a rugby club supporter to add your ideas below on the Supporters Forum, that you would like to see that would improve the product for you and also encourage new supporters to come along and then retain them in a vibrant, exciting and fun sporting outlet.
Please give examples or reasons why you feel they would make improvements
Remember Sportsnetwork has been the Premiership Supporter's Forum for many years, let's make it work for us. many of us have been posting for decades
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Discussion started by Comeonyouwarriors.co.uk (IP Logged), 13/10/2022 12:21
13/10/2022 12:21
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:23:22:29:49 by Faithful_City.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:23:22:29:49 by Faithful_City.
It is affecting all the clubs, so maybe(god forbid) they all work together to resolve the problems
1. Shirts and clothing merchandise. Why don't all the clubs get together and buy their merchandise from the same two providers(for product security and availability) and maybe work with the England shop. get a fantastic deal, reduce the cost of the shirts, sell more shirts bigger profits for all.
2. All the clubs get together and organise a National bus company to provide away support travel at massively reduced prices. Means clubs get more away support buying ticket, drinks and food and each club would get more away support from their supporters because its cheaper.
3. All clubs provide a match ticket discount for away supporters if purchased from the away clubs office not a measly 5%/10% but 25 to 50% off. get more away supporters to the ground 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. The atmosphere at the grounds would improve with more away supporters there.
4. Give a 50% discount off you first beer for away supporters if ticket purchased through the aways clubs ticket office. Once they have had one they are likely to have another
5, Clubs give clothing discounts to own supporters if they bought the previous season's Shirt on a growing scale say 5% per season so 3 consecutive years purchase gets you 15% discount.
6. Turn one the bars into a proper pub bar with snacks, beer, table,s heating and open 1 night a week with video showing old games or any major sporting event. get the supporter's club to volunteer to man it.
7. Get all the clubs to do a national deal with 1 or 2 beer and drinks providers, big discounts
Starter for 100 ideas???
JP
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:13:13:09:26 by Faithful_City.
1. Shirts and clothing merchandise. Why don't all the clubs get together and buy their merchandise from the same two providers(for product security and availability) and maybe work with the England shop. get a fantastic deal, reduce the cost of the shirts, sell more shirts bigger profits for all.
2. All the clubs get together and organise a National bus company to provide away support travel at massively reduced prices. Means clubs get more away support buying ticket, drinks and food and each club would get more away support from their supporters because its cheaper.
3. All clubs provide a match ticket discount for away supporters if purchased from the away clubs office not a measly 5%/10% but 25 to 50% off. get more away supporters to the ground 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. The atmosphere at the grounds would improve with more away supporters there.
4. Give a 50% discount off you first beer for away supporters if ticket purchased through the aways clubs ticket office. Once they have had one they are likely to have another
5, Clubs give clothing discounts to own supporters if they bought the previous season's Shirt on a growing scale say 5% per season so 3 consecutive years purchase gets you 15% discount.
6. Turn one the bars into a proper pub bar with snacks, beer, table,s heating and open 1 night a week with video showing old games or any major sporting event. get the supporter's club to volunteer to man it.
7. Get all the clubs to do a national deal with 1 or 2 beer and drinks providers, big discounts
Starter for 100 ideas???
JP
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:13:13:09:26 by Faithful_City.
8. Establish a ticket distribution system to get school kids at games, “Bring your family scheme….”
Really ,really simple. The Premiership is busted. Form a British and Irish league.
Quote:Faithful_City
It is affecting all the clubs, so maybe(god forbid) they all work together to resolve the problems
1. Shirts and clothing merchandise. Why don't all the clubs get together and buy their merchandise from the same two providers(for product security and availability) and maybe work with the England shop. get a fantastic deal, reduce the cost of the shirts, sell more shirts bigger profits for all.
Single supplier possible if all clubs agreed. Some may want compensating for giving up choice "We'd get a better deal on our own from company x, we have it in writing". Much higher probability of claims being made by suppliers not picked if any suggestion a flawless process not followed.
Quote:Faithful_City
2. All the clubs get together and organise a National bus company to provide away support travel at massively reduced prices. Means clubs get more away support buying ticket, drinks and food and each club would get more away support from their supporters because its cheaper.
Away support isn't just cost. It's also time. Newcastle away? That's your day gone. By selecting a single company, potential procurement disputes as above. Also - clubs are community based. They should be supporting local businesses, not a national. Finally, prices limited by market. Fuel, wear + tear, drivers, insurance and clean up mean you've a base price anyway. Plus if one Co doing all 6 away trips - do they have buses free on game days? If not, have to buy more and maintain which increases cost. Can't see as practical.
Quote:Faithful_City
3. All clubs provide a match ticket discount for away supporters if purchased from the away clubs office not a measly 5%/10% but 25 to 50% off. get more away supporters to the ground 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. The atmosphere at the grounds would improve with more away supporters there.
If you're dropping price by half you need to sell a good portion (guessing 80/90%) more tickets than you do already. Will you? If not, you stay as is. Otherwise increased overheads like staff will eat away at any additional profit from alcohol sales.
Quote:Faithful_City
4. Give a 50% discount off you first beer for away supporters if ticket purchased through the aways clubs ticket office. Once they have had one they are likely to have another
Beer cost + overheads means they'd probably break even or make a loss on that first beer. If you're buying a beer you'd probably have bought one anyway.
And I think the "away club ticket office" is a fallacy. You might reduce admin work for home game, but you're increasing it same amount for away games. With online tickets used by most - I don't think it's a gain.
Quote:Faithful_City
5, Clubs give clothing discounts to own supporters if they bought the previous season's Shirt on a growing scale say 5% per season so 3 consecutive years purchase gets you 15% discount.
Could work. Would depend on margins and any requirements if you change suppliers - but worth looking at. On same basis - beer loyalty cards. Buy 10, get one free. Especially as people always loose the bloomin things.
Quote:Faithful_City
6. Turn one the bars into a proper pub bar with snacks, beer, table,s heating and open 1 night a week with video showing old games or any major sporting event. get the supporter's club to volunteer to man it.
Location, location, location. Wouldn't work for us, or others. Drinking and driving is bad. Plus volunteers running bars at larger venues is always risky. Insurance may have questions. You'd be better off having a snooker hall open through the week (no others in wuss, there's the space, sports interest)
Quote:Faithful_City
7. Get all the clubs to do a national deal with 1 or 2 beer and drinks providers, big discounts
May reduce prices (or costs) a bit, but from a supporters point of view a negative. And again, it's not like there is the mass of Wetherspoons. Games x clubs x average number of supporters - probably no better in size for bargaining than a couple of reasonable size (champ/lower end premiership) football clubs banding together.
Sorry if I've been a Debbie Downer. There need to be ways both for savings, diversifying revenue AND growing the game. I'm just not sure most of the above a practical/would work or (in case of buses) fit with the community aspect of clubs.
Debbie Downer now you have negated all the suggestions, what are your suggestions that you would like to see as the end user.
JP
JP
The aim, which is what your ideas are trying to do, is to increase revenue and reduce costs. That has to happen, but it has to happen in ways that make a significant impact - unfortunately the ones you've suggested are at best minimal gains or would be neutral.
There's a big hole. It makes more sense to roll big/large stones in first and then go with shovels of sand rather than the other way round. Plug as much as you can as quickly as you can.
Without a major and significant increase in customer base - rugby just isn't viable as rugby alone. There are too many overheads (stadium upkeep, players + staff - full and "seasonal" (for games)) with too few supporters.
So there are two things you need to do (1) increase numbers of people who want to spend money on the game in whatever way (shirts, attendance, TV) and (2) increase your revenue from not rugby.
This is true of every club at all levels.
1 is the shovels of sand - it's needed, but it takes time. By all means spend some resource doing that, but you need the bulk of focus on (2) - the big stones.
So - the sand. You need to increase engagement - in all walks (not just rugby). That also gets your players of the future and allows you to tweak your pricing models to maximise revenue. How you do that - game times to not clash with other things? tie-ins? More player engagement with potential fans? There are people far better at knowing what will work than I.
The increasing revenue from not rugby is the greatest return over a few years and needs the main focus. Stadium and land use is crucial. Good high quality events and facilities that people want/need to use. A rugby "site" can't be a stadium that is largely lifeless for any period of time. Given the council's recent comments - projects that support the rugby on a long term basis (not asset sales, but development, held by the club) should get support. Focus on these. And what events do you want to see, or developments you could see working (even if no interest to you) that would drive use of the stadium and surrounding land?
There's a big hole. It makes more sense to roll big/large stones in first and then go with shovels of sand rather than the other way round. Plug as much as you can as quickly as you can.
Without a major and significant increase in customer base - rugby just isn't viable as rugby alone. There are too many overheads (stadium upkeep, players + staff - full and "seasonal" (for games)) with too few supporters.
So there are two things you need to do (1) increase numbers of people who want to spend money on the game in whatever way (shirts, attendance, TV) and (2) increase your revenue from not rugby.
This is true of every club at all levels.
1 is the shovels of sand - it's needed, but it takes time. By all means spend some resource doing that, but you need the bulk of focus on (2) - the big stones.
So - the sand. You need to increase engagement - in all walks (not just rugby). That also gets your players of the future and allows you to tweak your pricing models to maximise revenue. How you do that - game times to not clash with other things? tie-ins? More player engagement with potential fans? There are people far better at knowing what will work than I.
The increasing revenue from not rugby is the greatest return over a few years and needs the main focus. Stadium and land use is crucial. Good high quality events and facilities that people want/need to use. A rugby "site" can't be a stadium that is largely lifeless for any period of time. Given the council's recent comments - projects that support the rugby on a long term basis (not asset sales, but development, held by the club) should get support. Focus on these. And what events do you want to see, or developments you could see working (even if no interest to you) that would drive use of the stadium and surrounding land?
So I have to say you have the theory but no suggestions yourself on how to do it or what you as the customer would like to see.
Typical of what I see in several board or meeting rooms no concrete suggestions of what should be done but plenty of text book theory on what needs to be done.
Plenty of what but no how.
JP
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:16:14:34:20 by Faithful_City.
Typical of what I see in several board or meeting rooms no concrete suggestions of what should be done but plenty of text book theory on what needs to be done.
Plenty of what but no how.
JP
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:16:14:34:20 by Faithful_City.
Quote:Faithful_City
So I have to say you have the theory but no suggestions yourself on how to do it or what you as the customer would like to see.
Typical of what I see in several board or meeting rooms no concrete suggestions of what should be done but plenty of text book theory on what needs to be done.
Plenty of what but no how.
JP
Correct.
What I would like to see is a self-sustaining business that includes rugby. Rugby, however, cannot be the sole driver of the business because, as the PRL currently exists with the funding the clubs attract, the business will fail.
I don't have the ear of any potential purchaser, I'm not being paid to do it, it's outside my area of expertise (although that wouldn't stop suggestions - but they would be thought out and I would caveat them all with "we need to know what unintended consequences there would be". I'd add the same caveat to others ideas, no-matter how brilliant they sound - and I'd question them as I have yours. Although I would have stopped you after a couple and suggested they might better be sent round as a proposal for review outside of the meeting if not raised in advance. Anyone raising ideas on the hoof tend to bring more chaff than wheat)
Without understanding the costs, potential desired impact, and potential unintended consequences - from people who know what they're on about - ideas have no place being seriously considered.
Board meetings should be there for deciding overarching strategy/aims, considering proposals, and signing off on decisions. Then you get people who know what they're doing to propose solutions and bring them to the board with impact assessments. If you don't do that - things often go wrong. See: mini-budget announcement. Ideas and ideals without a solid foundation do not work.
We know none of us have the ear of a decision maker, whatever we say here is very unlikely to be considered at any high-level conference.
However we can still have our own ideas.
You have arbitrarily decided none of the proffered suggestions are workable but have not put forward anything better.
Shall say you don’t have any suggestion on how this can be done. Even Austin Healy put his ideas forward, I doubt he has many business recovery skills but he has tried.
JP
However we can still have our own ideas.
You have arbitrarily decided none of the proffered suggestions are workable but have not put forward anything better.
Shall say you don’t have any suggestion on how this can be done. Even Austin Healy put his ideas forward, I doubt he has many business recovery skills but he has tried.
JP
Quote:Faithful_City
We know none of us have the ear of a decision maker, whatever we say here is very unlikely to be considered at any high-level conference.
However we can still have our own ideas.
You have arbitrarily decided none of the proffered suggestions are workable but have not put forward anything better.
Shall say you don’t have any suggestion on how this can be done. Even Austin Healy put his ideas forward, I doubt he has many business recovery skills but he has tried.
JP
I gave reasoning why they appear impractical, so not arbitrarily deciding.
And if you want ideas that will generate revenue: hotel, conference facilities, medical centre, electric charge station: all long term revenue income. Can you persuade the Oktoberfest/Fake Festivals/Bands (eg Tom Jones at pitchcroft) Sixways is the better option - liaise with local bus companies for transport so drinking not an issue. EDM festivals - noise far less of an issue, good motorway link for coaches in and out. Peanuts, but rent out car park for car boots, host flea fairs, a rival to Wellesbourne Market. Can you interest TV (In the style of its a knockout, Ninja Warrior, or the one people used to go to Argentina to do that invoked wager). There's space, facilities, central location (less sunshine admittedly), stadium seating for audience. Solar or wind turbines on surrounding ground.
None of these I have any idea about feasibility, so feel free to dismiss. But they'd bring positive new revenue rather than tweaking what's there.
Some really good suggestions there WM, I have no idea how many would be successful but I am sure they would all be worth considering by the powers that be. They are likely to have a deeper understanding and knowledge of working out if they are worth pursuing.
Some I know are definitely on the table or were.
The more ideas thrown up on the board the more chance of finding a few that would work.
Certainly some will be quickly dismissed but others or variations even of those dismissed could be the golden key to our sustainable future.
JP
Some I know are definitely on the table or were.
The more ideas thrown up on the board the more chance of finding a few that would work.
Certainly some will be quickly dismissed but others or variations even of those dismissed could be the golden key to our sustainable future.
JP
The trouble is, when you’re trying to think of things that make a profit to prop up the rugby you’ve missed the point. Rugby isn’t profitable so why not just do the other stuff that is?
BB
BB
I really set this thread for as I said the end user, what things would we like to see improve that increases the footfall and could improve the bottom line.
Things that affect the rugby supporter. The bigger potential income streams are for the club owners/managers to build/develop. But that does not stop us discussing potential area’s.
I am more interested in what can be done for supporters to encourage more to come and how money can be saved by doing it better or on a national scale, like ticket prices vs volume of sale, transport, food and drink, clothing/memorabilia, schools, youth centers, what makes Sixways and rugby more attractive to a wider audience, feeling part of the club, feeling valued.
It’s all part of improving “The Club” and what it means to the population in our catchment area..
The sweating of the assets is where the big income streams will come from, but every penny counts.
Outside the box - start the games earlier so we don’t waste money on lighting??
JP
Things that affect the rugby supporter. The bigger potential income streams are for the club owners/managers to build/develop. But that does not stop us discussing potential area’s.
I am more interested in what can be done for supporters to encourage more to come and how money can be saved by doing it better or on a national scale, like ticket prices vs volume of sale, transport, food and drink, clothing/memorabilia, schools, youth centers, what makes Sixways and rugby more attractive to a wider audience, feeling part of the club, feeling valued.
It’s all part of improving “The Club” and what it means to the population in our catchment area..
The sweating of the assets is where the big income streams will come from, but every penny counts.
Outside the box - start the games earlier so we don’t waste money on lighting??
JP
You can have all the incentives you want, but if the team does not win regularly and compete for silverware then we will always struggle with crowd numbers.
The optimism of the early years began to wain many many moons ago.Only on field success can help imho.
The optimism of the early years began to wain many many moons ago.Only on field success can help imho.
Aston villa and Wolves keep getting 1,000’s and they don’t win many games.
We won 26 out of 26 not too long ago and we didn’t average 3,000.
It’s not all about wining, it counts, but it’s not everything.
JP
We won 26 out of 26 not too long ago and we didn’t average 3,000.
It’s not all about wining, it counts, but it’s not everything.
JP
JP, that was championship rugby in the 2003/4 season.
Do that in the Premiership and the place would be sold out.
Do that in the Premiership and the place would be sold out.
OK lets look at some facts/numbers
Numbers of Full Houses Since 2004
As you can see we have been dropping the numbers of full houses per season since we were first promoted in 2004.
Is this down to losing more games?
Games Won Per Season
This graph clearly indicates that winning games is not the whole story as the games won per season has not changed much since 2004, We started to dip but have since picked up over the last few seasons under Alan Solomons but full house have continued to dive.
There has to be something else that is driving it down
Maybe, just maybe it is the manner of the defeats and "The Supporter Involvement"
Try Bonus Conceded
This aligns with the dip in full houses. The more we concede, theo worse the defeat the less people come to watch.
It is not just winning games that will change this but being competitive. If there is a chance we can win then supporters will come and keep coming it is the excitement of the game that will bring and retain supporters, even if we lose!!
Being smashed by big scores and being embarrassed about being there is what will keep people away.
Wins are great but being competitive in every game we play, to push every team to their limits, to play to and beyond our limits is what brings and keeps supporters returning.
IT IS EXCITEMENT THAT BRINGS SUPPORTERS IN!!!
JP
Numbers of Full Houses Since 2004
As you can see we have been dropping the numbers of full houses per season since we were first promoted in 2004.
Is this down to losing more games?
Games Won Per Season
This graph clearly indicates that winning games is not the whole story as the games won per season has not changed much since 2004, We started to dip but have since picked up over the last few seasons under Alan Solomons but full house have continued to dive.
There has to be something else that is driving it down
Maybe, just maybe it is the manner of the defeats and "The Supporter Involvement"
Try Bonus Conceded
This aligns with the dip in full houses. The more we concede, theo worse the defeat the less people come to watch.
It is not just winning games that will change this but being competitive. If there is a chance we can win then supporters will come and keep coming it is the excitement of the game that will bring and retain supporters, even if we lose!!
Being smashed by big scores and being embarrassed about being there is what will keep people away.
Wins are great but being competitive in every game we play, to push every team to their limits, to play to and beyond our limits is what brings and keeps supporters returning.
JP
Quote:Brown Bottle
The trouble is, when you’re trying to think of things that make a profit to prop up the rugby you’ve missed the point. Rugby isn’t profitable so why not just do the other stuff that is?
The club has the space and a good location (easy motorway access). The council have said - you can develop, but it's in conjunction with rugby. So - if you want to use the space and location - you pay the rugby club a rental / go into a JV - either of which benefit the club. Or the club itself starts these up.
However done - it's the club using its assets to survive/grow (without selling them off). People could definitely start up anything to generate profit without the club - but they'll need space, location etc - and they've got to pay someone for that. Why not the club?
Wasps went down the road of trying to sweat all the stadium assets - Cov City (an unreliable partner as it turned out); Commonwealth Games venue; Netball; Casino; hotel? - not sure whether Covid killed it or whether it was never viable - but there is sense in trying to make the most of it. 10-15 match days a year doesn't seem enough to support the infrastructure.
Back to concerts, fairs, soccer or whatever....
But equally if the fundamentals are broken, then without a sugar daddy, it is difficult to see how a Prem rugby team can be financed right now. Strategic thinking at the top is required rather than just a closing of the ranks on a smaller league by those that are still standing.
Prem soccer is an international product, whereas our league is domestic consumption in the main. We will never get anything like the TV money that soccer gets.
So we're back to creating a live experience that people love, a buzz and feeling of community - things which seem to have been lost over the years at Sixways which feels ever more corporate.
If that means Championship is all we can sustainably aspire to, then I think I'd be happy with that...
Back to concerts, fairs, soccer or whatever....
But equally if the fundamentals are broken, then without a sugar daddy, it is difficult to see how a Prem rugby team can be financed right now. Strategic thinking at the top is required rather than just a closing of the ranks on a smaller league by those that are still standing.
Prem soccer is an international product, whereas our league is domestic consumption in the main. We will never get anything like the TV money that soccer gets.
So we're back to creating a live experience that people love, a buzz and feeling of community - things which seem to have been lost over the years at Sixways which feels ever more corporate.
If that means Championship is all we can sustainably aspire to, then I think I'd be happy with that...
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