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And the Warriors

Warriors
15 Chris Pennell
14 Bryce Heem
13 Jackson Willison
12 Ryan Mills
11 Josh Adams
10 Jono Lance
9 Francois Hougaard
1 Ethan Waller
2 Jack Singleton
3 Nick Schonert
4 Donncha O’Callaghan (C)
5 Will Spencer
6 Alafoti Faosiliva
7 Sam Lewis
8 GJ van Velze

Replacements
16 Matti Williams
17 Ryan Bower
18 Gareth Milasinovich
19 Pierce Phillips
20 Christian Scotland-Williamson
21 Michael Dowsett
22 Sam Olver
23 Dean Hammond

I make that 4 ex Saints in the Warriors line up.

Our pack has me concerned, a lack of pace and carrying ability could well cause us problems.

It's pleasing to see Horne back.

Not sure what else to make of the Saints picks, its a mixture of playing who we can considering absentees and a typical Jim selection.

We should have enough on show to win this game, but I've said that before away to Worcester.

What does poor JP Estelles have to do?!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:11:17:11:55:43 by saintsfella.

Quote:

andysaint
And the Warriors
Warriors
15 Chris Pennell
14 Bryce Heem
13 Jackson Willison
12 Ryan Mills
11 Josh Adams
10 Jono Lance
9 Francois Hougaard
1 Ethan Waller
2 Jack Singleton
3 Nick Schonert
4 Donncha O’Callaghan (C)
5 Will Spencer
6 Alafoti Faosiliva
7 Sam Lewis
8 GJ van Velze

Replacements
16 Matti Williams
17 Ryan Bower
18 Gareth Milasinovich
19 Pierce Phillips
20 Christian Scotland-Williamson
21 Michael Dowsett
22 Sam Olver
23 Dean Hammond

I had a quick glance at the Warriors team and thought the Duke of Edinburgh was wearing the 19 shirt

Quote:

saintsfella
What does poor JP Estelles have to do?!

Just out of curiosity who would you drop out of that squad to make room for him and why?

Stephen Myler??







*Shoots self in face*

Ken Pisi, Foden and arguably Collins. JP has not been given any chances except two Anglo Welsh games where he has been one of the best players on the pitch. IF Jim’s not gunna play him now then release the poor bloke. He’s about 29! He played for Argentina at Twickenham fairly recently. Almost certain another prem team would play him.

Harry the Hog,
Why not Stephen Myler if Pieres is injured?

Quote:

saintsfella
Ken Pisi, Foden and arguably Collins. JP has not been given any chances except two Anglo Welsh games where he has been one of the best players on the pitch. IF Jim’s not gunna play him now then release the poor bloke. He’s about 29! He played for Argentina at Twickenham fairly recently. Almost certain another prem team would play him.

I too find it odd that we choose to keep a full current international on our books and not play him in the league games. If Jim needed wing cover, surely there are some young players in the Championship that would love a chance to step up, like Kessell, even if it is for cover and Anglo Welsh Games. Even retaining the likes of Packman instead would have made better sense?

The three mentioned, Collins, Pisi and Estelles are relatively similar players; they have pace, have a step, are not as big and strong as North and enjoy a broken field. All a relatively on par defensively.

If Piers is injured then why is he on the bench?

Surely he needs time at 10. I just think Jim hasn’t got the bottle to drop Myler? Honestly, I find it very strange.

Clearly the coach considers Collins and Pisi to be better than Estelles. The greater worry for me is second row where Dickinson is not a natural and only Moon available to cover - all down to missing Lawes and presumably injuries to Craig and Day. Myler's selection probably down to lack of match fitness of Francis and Reinach's performances of late presumed better than Groom, which is hard to understand.

As others mention this is a typical JM conservative selection for a potential banana skin match.

Myler is a conservative, Mallinder, selection. I suppose Francis hasn’t been with the squad all week, but would hope he gets a good run.

Be nice to see Alex Moon get some time as well - I’m sure he is the tallest, heaviest lock we have. 6’10” and just under 20 stone.

We're a little unlucky with injuries to locks, Ribbans, Day and Craig all injured, Lawes and Api away on international duty too so I imagine Jim's hand was forced slightly.

However I think the back row balance is lacking, Eadie played the best part of a full game last weekend, I think that Gibson 6, T at 7 and Eadie 8 has a better balance to it, not been impressed with Wood of late. That said I suppose his experience is probably a factor with Hartley and Lawes away.

The return of Horne is great to see, and I think will be needed against an actually quite strong Worcester back-line. I agree with the other people on this thread though, what does JP Estelles have to do to get in the side, our best player over the past 2 weeks, surely deserves a crack at the premiership.

JP has been great for sure, but Ken has been very good too. Out of the two I would probably pick Ken for his all round game but JP is very unlucky as he deserves a shot.

Francis has not been playing for a few weeks and Myler has. It makes sense to stick with the Myler to a point but for me we need to see Francis good and early so he can get a good bit of time to be able to start next week.

Personal opinion SaintTed but I wuld take JP over either winger. Tom Collins lightning pace but defence not good. Ken rarely let's us down but just feel JP has that slight x factor.

On the Francis vs Myler debate .. not that there has really been one .. but can anyone point out what Piers has done in a Saints shirt that justifies his selection over Myler?

Genuinely interested. IMO they both have relative strengths and weaknesses. However, any hopes that Francis might be the natural replacement for Myler have been put to bed, at least in my mind. He simply hasn't looked like he can control a game when Saints have parity or are on the back foot. In fact, he looked better at 12 for England in the summer .. but that may have been down to the quality of the England 10 (Ford) and the mediocrity of Argentina in the two test series.

I think that's rather harsh on Francis;, he has hardly played sufficient game time on which to base a judgement yet

He is a New Zealand super rugby starting XV playmaker

I am not sure we could or would ever say the same for our other 10 options


What has he done in a saints shirt? He’s only starting 2 games and ran the ball at the line more than any other 10.

He needs to start. If we have the rest of the season with him on the bench I will give up.

Tedge

You may well be right. He hasn't had a sustained run in the 10 slot. However, he hasn't done anything in the few matches I've seen him in to mark him as being any better than say Harry Mallinder. And I'd warrant that the latter's kicking stats are better than Francis'.

It's not so much what Francis has done, he's only been here a few months, it's what he may bring to the team and the only way to find out is to give him game time.
With regards to Dickinson in the second row, if my memory is correct he played a lot of games for Rotherham there.

So let me get this straight - Sam Dickinson (who is supposedly leaving in December) is captain over our former captain and former international 6 who isn't leaving in December

How does that work?

Confused.com

COYS!!!

I really hope the saints can win this game. There are quite a few in the Warriors side that would like to see saints slip up.
I do try and understand the game plan from the coaches perspective but I am struggling.
I don't think there is much option with the front 5 due to Internationals and injury.
The back row is a mystery, Wood and Gibson tread on each other's toes and play the same game in the same space. T is a 7 playing 8. We have an 8 on the bench. I presume as the game progresses we will see T revert to 7 and Eadie take the pitch.
All in all a fairly light weight pack that will not boss the game particularly with Worcs looking for their first win.

Nine Cobus or Nic will have to be on their game against Hougaard who is probably the best 9 in the premiership

Why are we playing Myler who relies on a dominate pack to play his territory game and has been pretty rusty in the last two games.

I just hope we are not relying on the shovel pass to 12 to try and gain a few yards.

Hopefully Francis gets a look in without needing to chase the game.

Great to see Horne back lets hope he gets some decent ball.

Collins is the only real gas we have and despite some silly defensive cock ups goes looking for the ball.

All in all are we playing a territory game without a dominate pack or will we be relying on Myler to set the backs alight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:11:17:14:45:26 by Deesaint.

Disappointed.

Yet again we play 2 6's together.
Put our best 10 on the bench.

That he is away with England is no excuse, all the other teams slot there internationals back in.

Was a chance too see how Francis, Luther and Horne click.

On a positive glad too see Harry at 15.
Think he really can become a force from the Fullback position.


Coyssssssssss

Harry the Hog,
Why not Stephen Myler if Pieres is injured?


Francis is on the bench is he not?
Myler is yesterdays man.
We had a lot more attacking intent with Harry at 10, for all
his perceived defensive frailties.
Just my opinion of course my heart just sank a little when I saw Myler starting.

Wuss have their strongest team of the season out. Some will be match rusty but it will be a very tough game.

Many on here are happy to sit at home and expect us to win away games such as this.Every away game is tough.

The Worcester crowd are a fickle lot. It won't be full but if their lads great on top, they will make a lot of noise.

If you're wondering whether to go, every bit of support makes a difference.

Quote:

San Miguel
Tedge
You may well be right. He hasn't had a sustained run in the 10 slot. However, he hasn't done anything in the few matches I've seen him in to mark him as being any better than say Harry Mallinder. And I'd warrant that the latter's kicking stats are better than Francis'.

Frankly mate you’re just guessing about all of this

Watch some of the last 2 years games in super rugby that Francis played for the Blues. Without watching him play, you can’t take a fair view on his abilities.

Are Harry or Myler in the EPL squad? No. Is Piers? Yes. Does Eddie Jones know what he’s doing ? Yes.

He was 70% odd kicker FYI. Kicked pretty well last game.

and he can also tackle like a centre... our other options can’t.

Quote:

HungryLikeTheWolf

Quote:

San Miguel
Tedge
You may well be right. He hasn't had a sustained run in the 10 slot. However, he hasn't done anything in the few matches I've seen him in to mark him as being any better than say Harry Mallinder. And I'd warrant that the latter's kicking stats are better than Francis'.

Frankly mate you’re just guessing about all of this

Watch some of the last 2 years games in super rugby that Francis played for the Blues. Without watching him play, you can’t take a fair view on his abilities.

Are Harry or Myler in the EPL squad? No. Is Piers? Yes. Does Eddie Jones know what he’s doing ? Yes.

He was 70% odd kicker FYI. Kicked pretty well last game.

I always find ' Square breathing ' helps :-)

Big Sam as Captain and still they cannot squeeze him into a contract until the end of the season unless I have missed something recently !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:11:17:15:50:18 by Mobbs.

Taking all things into account,comments put to JM at STH forum,various posts on this site over many many weeks,in balanced back row,JP not being trusted?PF not being played instead of SM,why can JM not tell us his reasons for picking players In the positions he does,and why do they take precedence over those left out?
Surely it is not to much to ask,there are more than a few DOR,s in the prem that do,living in Coventry big Dai regularly explains his team selections.
Maybe JM is afraid to do so?

I don’t get why anyone would start Myler over Piers?

In the England squad and a super rugby standard player????

Although we have brought Biggar, so maybe we see Piers as a 12 long term?

Well, I am a bit disappointed, too.

Unless Piers is not really fit he should, absolutely, be starting.. he has the pedigree but not had the run - and we can give him that.

Also, I cannot believe that its still November and we have already got so short of locks we are playing an out of contract No8 at 5. This would be unfortunate if it hadnt happened before...

We have a specialist No.8 on the bench (as well as one in the second row), playing two 6s (with a 7 playing No8).. what do we keep doing - do we have a random pack generator?

The front row is also odd - Mikey is great but both the props get mullered week in, week out, now but the two new recruits are benched..

Its all very odd, I tell you!

So here was I thinking that this was a bit of a fresh and different kind of a team due to some injuries, absences and a chance to try some new combinations. Reading this thread I was clearly wrong and it is all a big conspiracy against certain team members and a plan by Jim to have us lose the game.

Oh well. I suppose I'll just have to cheer on the lads and see how they go. COYS

Quote:

twsaint

The Worcester crowd are a fickle lot.

Fickle implies we've been good at some point...

Quote:

twsaint

The Worcester crowd are a fickle lot.

Fickle implies we've been good at some point...

It’s all a bit of a shame for James Grayson. So much potential but can’t even get a start in the LV or on the bench in the prem. Personally I noticed a big difference in the last 20 last week with Grayson playing so much flatter than Myler . As much as I love Myler, I would rather see Grayson ahead of him this season as he’s the future right?! I’m not convinced this Biggar signing is going to work well for us either. That will make 9/10/12 Mitchel/Grayson/Stephenson all with incredible potential, all 3rd choice and unlikely to get much game-time. We might end up seeing those 3 lining up for Worcester in a couple of sesons along with Ethan et al.

I don’t mean to be negative but i just wish we’d invest more in our young talent (like Sarries do)

100% agree protestbeat.

Jim is under pressure and, like many a manager, is playing safe on the basis that any win will do. I would love to see Mitchell, Grayson, Hutchinson, Stephenson and JP get some game time but it will never happen en masse so its drip feed for the time being.

There's some real quality in the Warriors side (Pennell, Hougard, O'Callaghan Heem, Singleton). That combined with a number of ex Saints players looking to make a point and our depleted team with injuries makes Warriors favourites for me.

However Horne hasn't lost a Saints game yet so having him back should make a real difference.

COME ON YOU SAINTS!!!!

[quote twsaint]
The Worcester crowd are a fickle lot. It won't be full but if their lads great on top, they will make a lot of noise.

Oh and the Saints fans aren't. I really cannot believe the total BS spurting out of some keyboards
Piers was injured (if you remember) and got picked for the England training camps regardless of that. He is not fully match fit hence Myler being picked.

I do believe that even if JM picked a team with all of the player in that you are shouting for, he would still be shot down. Personally I do not call that supporting a side in any way. Why not just get behind the team and show them that we do support them.

I do not agree with somne of the picks regularly but I would sooner accept it and cheer the team on rather than mouth off (or type off) on here. Remember player do read this board. Something I think I am going to stop. so this will be my final post and will not bother to read any more of the bile from the regular offenders.

Because I think it’s crazy not starting Francis and I’m allowed to say so. This is like the PC police, just trying to shut down debate and thoughts for fear of ‘not being a supoorter’

To be honest I don’t really support the current leadership, they’ve lost me over the last year or so. Until our scrum is sorted and we don’t hose away 30 points every game that won’t change.

Shame you feel that way Saintlyg but I like the fact that individuals share their opinions (usually with added rationale). What a shame if we all behaved exactly the same. Your definition of support is different from mine. Season ticket holder for many years which will continue but it won't stop me calling out what frustrates me (even if many others disagree). For example Sam D at lock and Captain yet leaving in next few weeks : crazy !
Tom W / Jamie G at 6 & 7 .... crazy (Jamie G 6 and Nutley i.e a true 7 in my opinion would be far more balanced.
No JP ...madness.

[quote Saintlyg][quote twsaint]
The Worcester crowd are a fickle lot. It won't be full but if their lads great on top, they will make a lot of noise.

Oh and the Saints fans aren't. I really cannot believe the total BS spurting out of some keyboards
Piers was injured (if you remember) and got picked for the England training camps regardless of that. He is not fully match fit hence Myler being picked.

I do believe that even if JM picked a team with all of the player in that you are shouting for, he would still be shot down. Personally I do not call that supporting a side in any way. Why not just get behind the team and show them that we do support them.

I do not agree with somne of the picks regularly but I would sooner accept it and cheer the team on rather than mouth off (or type off) on here. Remember player do read this board. Something I think I am going to stop. so this will be my final post and will not bother to read any more of the bile from the regular offenders.[/quote]

me too ! Getting fed up with the moaning old men on here.

Well it’s up to the coaches to change that, isn’t it..... after watching Gloucester now coming good I’m so bleeding irritated



We have lots of very good players. We just need to start playing like a team who will spill blood on the pitch every game. We need some leadership, organisation and passion. This is the Saints we are talking about not some Mickey Mouse club, just sort it out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:11:17:22:08:43 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

Saint 1969
I moan all the time as I believe I have a right to.
Years and years of supporting Saints, spending thousands on Home, away, beer and food etc. Yes it’s my choice but as a fan I will always voice my opinion.

Jim and West’s choices of late are in my opinion bemusing and the likes of JP who turns it on every time he gets a chance just frustrates me.

Once again in my opinion the management have done what they can and it’s time we paid the fee to off load them before we lose bums on seats that we’ll never ever get back!!!

TIME FOR CHANGE!!!!!