Northampton Saints
Leavers and New Signings
By Saint Ted
May 9 2024
This is the leavers and new signings thread for the end of the 23/24 season
Somebody please let me know if I've missed anybody off this list, I will add any additions to it as and when they are announced....
Out:
Courtney Lawes - Flanker/Lock
Lewis Ludlam - Back Row
Alex Waller - Prop
Ethan Waller - Prop
Paul Hill - Prop
Alex Moon - Lock
Tom Cruse - Hooker
Callum Braley - Scrum Half
Joel Matavesi - Center
Kayde Sylvester - Back Row
Geordie Irvine - Back row
George Patten - Prop
Aston Gradwick-Light - Hooker
Mathew Arden - Fly Half
Nick Tarr - Prop
James Grayson - Fly Half
Sam Matavesi - Hooker
In:
Tom West - Prop
Josh Kemeny - Back Row
Luke Green - Prop
Fyn Brown - Back Row
Archie Benson - Back Row
Charlie Savala - Fly Half
George Makepeace-Cubitt - Fly Half
George Smith - Lock
Callum Hunter-Hill - Lock
Nathan Langdon - Hooker
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Discussion started by Marching On , 09/05/2024 11:04
Marching On
09/05/2024 11:04
09/05/2024 11:04
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:09:27:09:01:23 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:09:27:09:01:23 by Saint Ted.
On the Savala front, it’s been mentioned here before that he’s already gone, I did a quick google and one website that lists player transfers states he’s back at Edinburgh, but I can’t find anything official from either side.
I’m only updating the list with official announcements, so from the club, so marking that one as “pending update” I guess
I’m only updating the list with official announcements, so from the club, so marking that one as “pending update” I guess
For my money, we still need to be signing a few more players, even if they are only squad cover.
We surely need another one, possibly two centres and/or a flyhalf who can also play centre. as we are losing Matavesi and Savala. We also need another lock to replace Moon and possibly another loosehead to replace another Waller and another scrum half (although I'd be happy promoting Jonny Weimann to be the fourth-choice cover) to replace Braley.
When you take into account the academy and the wave of talent coming through, I think we are well stocked at hooker, flanker and in the back three. But we're short on centres, fly halves and locks.
We surely need another one, possibly two centres and/or a flyhalf who can also play centre. as we are losing Matavesi and Savala. We also need another lock to replace Moon and possibly another loosehead to replace another Waller and another scrum half (although I'd be happy promoting Jonny Weimann to be the fourth-choice cover) to replace Braley.
When you take into account the academy and the wave of talent coming through, I think we are well stocked at hooker, flanker and in the back three. But we're short on centres, fly halves and locks.
Forgot to mention - Savala appears to still be in the Shire; he was wild swimming with James Ramm and Gus at Castle Ashby this week.
Quote:Saint Ted
On the Savala front, it’s been mentioned here before that he’s already gone, I did a quick google and one website that lists player transfers states he’s back at Edinburgh, but I can’t find anything official from either side.
I’m only updating the list with official announcements, so from the club, so marking that one as “pending update” I guess
He was sat with other players in the stands at Twickenham.
Always a shame to see academy lads being released. I suppose it comes to a point where it's thought that they won't have a future as Premiership players. It's best that they can take other routes .
There is some serious talent leaving, it doesn't make them bad players.
Good luck to them.
It leaves some room for the new academy intake.
There is some serious talent leaving, it doesn't make them bad players.
Good luck to them.
It leaves some room for the new academy intake.
Quote:twsaintQuote:Saint Ted
On the Savala front, it’s been mentioned here before that he’s already gone, I did a quick google and one website that lists player transfers states he’s back at Edinburgh, but I can’t find anything official from either side.
I’m only updating the list with official announcements, so from the club, so marking that one as “pending update” I guess
He was sat with other players in the stands at Twickenham.
Thanks, I thought it was odd that had he gone back that it wasn't mentioned
on the Academy players being released... I would imagine that should they stay in rugby, they will be monitored.
There have been a number of instances where Academy players have been released and re-signed. I think Nick Tarr has previously been released and re-signed.
There have been a number of instances where Academy players have been released and re-signed. I think Nick Tarr has previously been released and re-signed.
The biggest most obvious gap is at fly half. With Furbank establishing himself with England, we need a second player who we would be happy starting Prem games.
I don't think we do have a gap at centre. We've got Dingwall, Odendaal and Hutchinson all thrashing it out to be first picks. Freeman who can slot in. Litchfield who can now start Prem games. And Thame who has seen game time in the Prem Cup. So think we're well covered there.
So I think, with the exception of a 10 (though this could be Savala), we're now set in the backs department.
At second row, we need a 5th player who can sub in, in the way Lockett has this season (the first 4 being Mayanavanua, Coles, Munga, Lockett). That 5th player could be Atuanya, or Benson or Brown, both of whom are supposed be cross-over second-row / back-row players.
At prop, we're relying on the fact that most of the tightheads can also play loosehead, to cover as 4th and 5th choice loosehead.
So overall, I think all we need right now is a back-up 10. And if Savala can be persuaded to stay, we might be completely done for new signings.
I don't think we do have a gap at centre. We've got Dingwall, Odendaal and Hutchinson all thrashing it out to be first picks. Freeman who can slot in. Litchfield who can now start Prem games. And Thame who has seen game time in the Prem Cup. So think we're well covered there.
So I think, with the exception of a 10 (though this could be Savala), we're now set in the backs department.
At second row, we need a 5th player who can sub in, in the way Lockett has this season (the first 4 being Mayanavanua, Coles, Munga, Lockett). That 5th player could be Atuanya, or Benson or Brown, both of whom are supposed be cross-over second-row / back-row players.
At prop, we're relying on the fact that most of the tightheads can also play loosehead, to cover as 4th and 5th choice loosehead.
So overall, I think all we need right now is a back-up 10. And if Savala can be persuaded to stay, we might be completely done for new signings.
Indeed, we need a decent quality 10 as Fin is likely to get called up to England. Not easy to find, and ideally they can cover centre also, maybe we can get Savala back if he is deemed good enough. Hopefully we will also hear which current academy are going to step up (a few have already). So a lock and a prop to come hopefully, though where from?
I wonder whether last season's 'increase in bulk' programme will be repeated. It may be that someone like Munga or Locket might become the next Moon.
Quote:Londonsaint
At second row, we need a 5th player who can sub in, in the way Lockett has this season (the first 4 being Mayanavanua, Coles, Munga, Lockett). That 5th player could be Atuanya, or Benson or Brown, both of whom are supposed be cross-over second-row / back-row players.
.
I would disagree on your summary of Lock.
There is a huge difference when we play Moon and Coles, they are significant to the teams performance.
There is a noticable drop in performance when Moon in particular is missing.
We have lost Ribbans and we will see Moon go at the end of the season.
For what it's worth I think we need a big aggresive lump to maintain the pack's performance
Well, thats Charlie Savala and George Makepeace-Cubitt to add to the INs list
If saints could make announcements during my office hours it would make editing the list a damn site easier!
I have heard from a source who is normally quite good we are in talks with a lock . No names unfortunately .
Don’t forget that now we have a league of 10, the impact of England players is minimal now, as the premiership is played around the players availability .
Just means we may have to rest Fin and George at different times, as I see George as our 2nd choice 10, and makes sense as we have lots of options at 15
Just means we may have to rest Fin and George at different times, as I see George as our 2nd choice 10, and makes sense as we have lots of options at 15
I wonder if this season may be Saints’ best chance to win silverware. Rich rivals will be able to spend 30% more next season whilst we won’t be and Sarries, Bristol and Bath are all already top 4 contenders.
We need to balance the books and it is far more important we have a club still in existence beyond next season than short-lived glory. So the following isn’t a criticism but simply trying to be objective.
When looking at the quality we have lost versus the quality being brought in we look weaker, particularly from an experience point of view. As Alan Hansen said, you don’t win anything with kids.
In a different era we’d have kept key experienced players we are losing and be building to an even stronger position next season and taking the learning from losses like Leinster to help win equivalent games. Whereas looking at the squad for next year it feels more like it will be a challenge just to maintain this season’s standards let alone push on.
Experience and leadership-wise we are fine in the backs IMHO but losing Waller, Lawes and Ludlam who are our experienced leaders in the forwards?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:10:00:45:04 by Saint Maul.
We need to balance the books and it is far more important we have a club still in existence beyond next season than short-lived glory. So the following isn’t a criticism but simply trying to be objective.
When looking at the quality we have lost versus the quality being brought in we look weaker, particularly from an experience point of view. As Alan Hansen said, you don’t win anything with kids.
In a different era we’d have kept key experienced players we are losing and be building to an even stronger position next season and taking the learning from losses like Leinster to help win equivalent games. Whereas looking at the squad for next year it feels more like it will be a challenge just to maintain this season’s standards let alone push on.
Experience and leadership-wise we are fine in the backs IMHO but losing Waller, Lawes and Ludlam who are our experienced leaders in the forwards?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:10:00:45:04 by Saint Maul.
I think if you look towards saintsmen who have captained, come through from youth and are more senior (which is tough in the 24/25 squad), I suspect Coles, Dingwall and Furbank are the senior leadership team now.
Lock is a funny one … we have a few really good options, but do feel that Munga and even Mayanavanua have not really been the ‘nailed on starters’ I was kind of expecting… Alex and alex have done really well in stepping up but was expecting more from these guys.
I would love to see another lock - but one who is an absolute starter - preferably with leadership skills too.
I would love to see another lock - but one who is an absolute starter - preferably with leadership skills too.
Is a bit arbitrary trying to categorise them between senior academy and full playing squad.
But essentially, we've lost 10 from the main playing squad (Waller, Waller, Cruse, Hill, Moon, Lawes, Ludlam, Braley, Grayson, Matavesi), and are signing 4 to the main playing squad (West, Kemeny, Benson, Savala).
Plus there will obviously be players like Hendy, Litchfield and Lockett, who probably were on senior academy contracts at the start of last year, but have now progressed.
Then we're losing 6 from the senior academy (Patten, Gradwick-Light, Tarr, Sylvester, Irvine, Arden), and adding 3 (Green, Brown, Makepeace-Cubitt). None of which is to say these guys won't feature in the first team this year - just that their age profile is similar to those senior academy exits.
Plus presumably there will be some youngsters who sign senior academy contracts this summer.
Overall, I'm happy. Obviously I would love it if we signed a 130kg second row to add to the mix. But in the current budgetary environment, I think this is a great squad for next year.
But essentially, we've lost 10 from the main playing squad (Waller, Waller, Cruse, Hill, Moon, Lawes, Ludlam, Braley, Grayson, Matavesi), and are signing 4 to the main playing squad (West, Kemeny, Benson, Savala).
Plus there will obviously be players like Hendy, Litchfield and Lockett, who probably were on senior academy contracts at the start of last year, but have now progressed.
Then we're losing 6 from the senior academy (Patten, Gradwick-Light, Tarr, Sylvester, Irvine, Arden), and adding 3 (Green, Brown, Makepeace-Cubitt). None of which is to say these guys won't feature in the first team this year - just that their age profile is similar to those senior academy exits.
Plus presumably there will be some youngsters who sign senior academy contracts this summer.
Overall, I'm happy. Obviously I would love it if we signed a 130kg second row to add to the mix. But in the current budgetary environment, I think this is a great squad for next year.
Sorry to see James Grayson on the list, we must have great hopes for the two new no10s if they are better than James, or do they offer more positional flexibility?
Totally agree Deesaint point above about Moon - Coles in the engine room. I doubted Alex M a season or two ago, but he now seems to be as physical in defence as his size warrants. Big loss, we need another 4. And with all the other old / not so old lads from the pack leaving I think it puts Alex C right up there as pack leader now.
Quote:Push Over
Sorry to see James Grayson on the list, we must have great hopes for the two new no10s if they are better than James, or do they offer more positional flexibility?
[www.northamptonsaints.co.uk].
He left about 6 months ago
With all due respect, we've not missed Grayson.
Glad he's enjoying life out East and will always look out for him. He's one of our own!
Glad he's enjoying life out East and will always look out for him. He's one of our own!
I'm not hugely knowledgeable in football but isn't Hansen known for just repeating 'lines' that don't hold up?
I'd agree that likely no team sport is winnable at a high level with 'kids' but pretty much all successful teams have had a blend. In the round ball game and more his era Fergie's United were known for having quite few academy lads as the core, with the skill then being the odd few bought in superstars around them.
As with Sarries when they were breaking the cap, for me the difference is less the extra superstar and more the depth of squad. It is possible with a lower spend but you have to get a little lucky with injury and progression of academy. Having more to spend avoids some of those difficult decisions as you can keep the promising youngster and the proven player. Or like Leinster you can roll another international front row off the bench.
All that said I do think this is a good opportunity for us as long as that loss to Leinster fires the belly and we don't lose anyone key.
I'd agree that likely no team sport is winnable at a high level with 'kids' but pretty much all successful teams have had a blend. In the round ball game and more his era Fergie's United were known for having quite few academy lads as the core, with the skill then being the odd few bought in superstars around them.
As with Sarries when they were breaking the cap, for me the difference is less the extra superstar and more the depth of squad. It is possible with a lower spend but you have to get a little lucky with injury and progression of academy. Having more to spend avoids some of those difficult decisions as you can keep the promising youngster and the proven player. Or like Leinster you can roll another international front row off the bench.
All that said I do think this is a good opportunity for us as long as that loss to Leinster fires the belly and we don't lose anyone key.
On the subject of 'not winning anything with kids' someone on the Gloucester board has pointed out that at 27, Furbank is the eldest starting back!
I can see that Gloucester are starting a lot of academy players, but ours is pretty much 1st choice!
I can see that Gloucester are starting a lot of academy players, but ours is pretty much 1st choice!
As mentioned losing quite a bit of bulk and experience in the engine room. Especially with Ribbans last season. I’d like to think Dowse wouldn’t be left short or underpowered in this dept. There is definitely more of a focus on forwards since he took over from Boyd.
Of the academy lads that have been in Nat 1 at Leicester Lions, I thought Irvine was the most likely to succeed, his attitude seemed to be right, 100 percent player, a little surprised you let him go.
Could’ve entered some appearances in wrong.
But yesterday’s programme has 2932 appearances across the squad.
The leavers, leave the remaining squad with 1654 appearances.
It has been said before but that feels rather significant doesn’t it.
43% decrease in caps.
I would like a Lukhan salami loto or someone of that ilk added.
But yesterday’s programme has 2932 appearances across the squad.
The leavers, leave the remaining squad with 1654 appearances.
It has been said before but that feels rather significant doesn’t it.
43% decrease in caps.
I would like a Lukhan salami loto or someone of that ilk added.
It seems strange that Joel Matevesi was the ‘Coaches Player of the Year’ but is nonetheless released, or am I missing something obvious ?
I think the coaches player of the year is more about who has excelled around the camp and all the things around the team, not about ability, unfortunately that doesn’t always translate into being a starter or a new contract
Link shows ins and outs as listed here, but also adds contract extensions.
[all.rugby]
Hopefully accurate.
Surprising when you scroll through clubs that the majority of new signings seem to be English qualified. And a lot more outs than ins despite the spectre of the increase in cap for next season.
[all.rugby]
Hopefully accurate.
Surprising when you scroll through clubs that the majority of new signings seem to be English qualified. And a lot more outs than ins despite the spectre of the increase in cap for next season.
Interesting they suggest Moore-Aiono is returning from a loan year. I thought he looked quite promising when he played and was disappointed he’d gone without realising it was temporary.
The fact that he's #22 this weekend suggests he might just still be with us 🙂
Somebody is keeping the ins and outs up to date for the prem over on Wikipedia …
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
Below is a pack positions cover plus current ages in brackets:
STARTING PACK
1 Iyogun (23)
2 Langdon (26)
3 Davison (31)
4 Coles (24)
5 Temo (26)
6 Kemeny (25)
7 Pearson (24)
8 Augustus (26)
BENCH AND ROTATION/COVER:
LH: West (27) Haffar (22)
H: Matavesi (32) Smith (25) Wright (20)
TH: Millar-Mills (31) Green (22) Prowse (23) Nonleh (23)
Lock: Munga (23) Lockett (21) Atuanya (21)
Flankers: Scott-Young (27) Pollock (19) Benson (22) Brown (21) Logan (18)
8: Graham (26)
Position reflections:
Front row looks decent quality and experience.
What is striking is the low level of experience in our 2nd row and back row with an average age of 23. Our oldest lock is 26. Our oldest backrower is 27.
Courtney and Moon are losses and we look weaker in the 2nd row and back row without them. Courtney is simply irreplaceable but Kemeny is a decent replacement. But we could really do with a bit of gnarl/experience and quality in the second row. Are there any unattached players from the clubs that went under like Andrew Kitchener who wouldn’t cost a fortune?
On the flip side I’m excited to see what promising youngsters Wright, Green and Pollock can do next season as they look quality prospects.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:09:48:46 by Saint Maul.
STARTING PACK
1 Iyogun (23)
2 Langdon (26)
3 Davison (31)
4 Coles (24)
5 Temo (26)
6 Kemeny (25)
7 Pearson (24)
8 Augustus (26)
BENCH AND ROTATION/COVER:
LH: West (27) Haffar (22)
H: Matavesi (32) Smith (25) Wright (20)
TH: Millar-Mills (31) Green (22) Prowse (23) Nonleh (23)
Lock: Munga (23) Lockett (21) Atuanya (21)
Flankers: Scott-Young (27) Pollock (19) Benson (22) Brown (21) Logan (18)
8: Graham (26)
Position reflections:
Front row looks decent quality and experience.
What is striking is the low level of experience in our 2nd row and back row with an average age of 23. Our oldest lock is 26. Our oldest backrower is 27.
Courtney and Moon are losses and we look weaker in the 2nd row and back row without them. Courtney is simply irreplaceable but Kemeny is a decent replacement. But we could really do with a bit of gnarl/experience and quality in the second row. Are there any unattached players from the clubs that went under like Andrew Kitchener who wouldn’t cost a fortune?
On the flip side I’m excited to see what promising youngsters Wright, Green and Pollock can do next season as they look quality prospects.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:09:48:46 by Saint Maul.
We are definitely seeing a different - and creative - approach to recruitment.
The 2nd row is an area where we do need some support. IMO. And yes, a Lobbe/Matfield signing would be soooo good! Only for a year. Get them not just on the pitch but working with Munga Lockett and Atuanya
Everywhere else, I really am feeling very positive.
The 2nd row is an area where we do need some support. IMO. And yes, a Lobbe/Matfield signing would be soooo good! Only for a year. Get them not just on the pitch but working with Munga Lockett and Atuanya
Everywhere else, I really am feeling very positive.
Another prop and second row and I think we're good to go.
Really savvy recruitment from Saints of late, kudos to them, very much contrasts Bath who are throwing money at anyone and everything.
Really savvy recruitment from Saints of late, kudos to them, very much contrasts Bath who are throwing money at anyone and everything.
Can’t find the article now! But there was a recent article about where the Worcester players had ended up and I if I remember correctly Andrew Kitchener had stepped away into a job outside of Rugby.
Edit: The Article
[inews.co.uk]
“He is now working as a data analyst predicting electricity consumption for YES Energy in Waterloo in London”
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:11:25:11 by tigersimon.
Edit: The Article
[inews.co.uk]
“He is now working as a data analyst predicting electricity consumption for YES Energy in Waterloo in London”
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:11:25:11 by tigersimon.
Quote:tigersimon
Can’t find the article now! But there was a recent article about where the Worcester players had ended up and I if I remember correctly Andrew Kitchener had stepped away into a job outside of Rugby.
Edit: The Article
[inews.co.uk]
“He is now working as a data analyst predicting electricity consumption for YES Energy in Waterloo in London”
And he's only 26 if I read that correctly. That's a real shame.
Quote:Blimey, that takes me back a bit! Castle Ashby lakes, I remember a load of us skinny dipping in there one night after a few beers in the Crown at Grendon. There’s an image for you 😂😂. Would have been very early 80’s. Sadly the Crown is long gone. Used to do a good pint of Pedigree.DaventrySaint
Forgot to mention - Savala appears to still be in the Shire; he was wild swimming with James Ramm and Gus at Castle Ashby this week.
To me next season we look a bit like the team that faced Bath. No one player is bad or doesn't deserve to be in the squad or indeed wouldn't do a good job. However in the pack we look short on experience and really top class players as a collective.
It depends so much on the development of Iyogun, Haffar, Langdon, Coles and Pearson. If those 5 take a step forward, then you combine them with Davison, Mayanavanua, Keemun and Augustus. With solid players like Graham, Scott-Young, Millar-Mills and Matavesi. Suddenly we then have a pack to be proud of. But relies on a few people finding an extra gear
I’d like to see Coles emerge and fulfil his leadership potential. He’s a nailed on starter now at lock or 6 and has captained the side before (the prem cup team the other season?) He also plays the full 80 which helps. I think along with Furbs or Dingers he’d do a job.
Quote:ajack
To me next season we look a bit like the team that faced Bath. No one player is bad or doesn't deserve to be in the squad or indeed wouldn't do a good job. However in the pack we look short on experience and really top class players as a collective.
Can’t agree with this, given the players not facing Bath who will be at Saints next year
Backs
Mitchell
Smith
Dingwall
Freeman
Furbank
All capped for England this year in proper 6Ns games!
Forwards
The big losses are Lawes, Ludlam and Moon.
Lawes is obviously a huge loss. You can never replace him. But then the time was coming anyway. Nothing lasts forever. The option of replacing him with a like for like quality player is obviously not possible. The replacement of what he brings in terms of leadership/nous etc has to be taken on by the current existing top players. The backs mentioned above and forwards like Langdon, Pearson, Augustus, Coles need to be the ones making the smart decisions that lawes knows how to make and the massive impact plays he makes.
Ludlam is covered by Pearson. Having 2 players of that quality is really only something that teams like Saracens can afford (financially and morally). ASY and Pollock are easily high enough quality 2/3rd choices in a squad.
Moon has turned into a quality player. Is he international standard though? That works both ways, as if he is never going to get a look in (remember he is competing against quality ie Itoje, Martin, Chessum), but is just about as good, then he is a perfect player as has no international obligations.
So I think Moon will be the hardest to replace and only one where I don’t see a solution through a specific signing or change of responsibilities in the squad, yet. Currently it looks like there is potentially a bit too much reliance on a second row stepping up, when perhaps plugging the gap with a high quality signing may work. Finances are what they are, but I see the risk of not spending on a quality second row as greater than the risk of spending a bit too much.
I say yet as Dowson and co have proven that they have the ability to make good decisions so I am sure they are working on it.
Quote:ajack
To me next season we look a bit like the team that faced Bath. No one player is bad or doesn't deserve to be in the squad or indeed wouldn't do a good job. However in the pack we look short on experience and really top class players as a collective.
I’d agree. Inexperienced players, however promising, are prone to making rookie mistakes. In the Bath game Haffar gets tacked and does an unnecessary double-roll and we get penalised when we were in a good attacking position and no jackler was near. In another example, we’d successfully halted their rolling maul and the ref had said use it to Bath and then Lockett collapses the maul and we concede an unnecessary penalty (particularly as it was still 25 metres out from our line). These are the types of mistakes that you don’t see experienced players make. Both look like promising players but in tight games these type of errors could prove costly next year.
I’ve said elsewhere, think what we need most is a big beast of a lock behind tight head please!
Cole’s has been a revaluation having put on those 5-6kg, it’s made so much difference to the physicality of his game, but he still isn’t a big lock in the mood we need.
Temu, just has t done it for me sadly, n Munga n Lockett need to grow into themselves, I see lock as our potential weakness
Cole’s has been a revaluation having put on those 5-6kg, it’s made so much difference to the physicality of his game, but he still isn’t a big lock in the mood we need.
Temu, just has t done it for me sadly, n Munga n Lockett need to grow into themselves, I see lock as our potential weakness
Quote:Saint MaulQuote:ajack
To me next season we look a bit like the team that faced Bath. No one player is bad or doesn't deserve to be in the squad or indeed wouldn't do a good job. However in the pack we look short on experience and really top class players as a collective.
I’d agree. Inexperienced players, however promising, are prone to making rookie mistakes. In the Bath game Haffar gets tacked and does an unnecessary double-roll and we get penalised when we were in a good attacking position and no jackler was near. In another example, we’d successfully halted their rolling maul and the ref had said use it to Bath and then Lockett collapses the maul and we concede an unnecessary penalty (particularly as it was still 25 metres out from our line). These are the types of mistakes that you don’t see experienced players make. Both look like promising players but in tight games these type of errors could prove costly next year.
How often do you think they will make mistakes like that, though?
The Lockett one was weird. Didn't see the replay, but why would he collapse a maul like that?
I wonder what effect losing our players twice during the year will have ? ((Autumn internationals and 6 nations) I expect that the premier fixtures wont be able to have a rest for both?
Quote:Chris Hoddle
I wonder what effect losing our players twice during the year will have ? ((Autumn internationals and 6 nations) I expect that the premier fixtures wont be able to have a rest for both?
I am really hoping that prem cup games are scheduled during the international weekends … with the smaller league, this is now more plausible … but who knows if sense will prevail.
is there any chance that our recruitment hasn't finished? Could we still be looking at a lock or has the club stated that we've signed all that we are going to?
Quote:Neil-H
I’ve said elsewhere, think what we need most is a big beast of a lock behind tight head please!
Cole’s has been a revaluation having put on those 5-6kg, it’s made so much difference to the physicality of his game, but he still isn’t a big lock in the mood we need.
Temu, just has t done it for me sadly, n Munga n Lockett need to grow into themselves, I see lock as our potential weakness
I agree regarding Temu. I was expecting much more. Hopefully he’ll kick on next season
Quote:Chris Hoddle
I wonder what effect losing our players twice during the year will have ? ((Autumn internationals and 6 nations) I expect that the premier fixtures wont be able to have a rest for both?
Will depend on what finally gets agreed in PGP (Professional Game Partnership) between PRL & RFU.
One version of the season structure compiled by a Tigers Sportsnetwork member only had two clashes, with Premiership games and an England training camp on the weekends before the AIs & 6Ns.
With the PRC games during the international windows.
Hopefully Temu has just taken time to settle into a new way of life and location. He seemed to kick on for Lyon after his first season, hopefully he will with us.
Makepeace-Cubitt has just been selected to start for England Under 20s v Coventry and he started the final deciding 6 Nations game where England beat France. So I’m hoping he is the one that grows into that longer-term genuine back-up for Smith at fly-half so we don’t need to call on Furbank. It’s been a risk area this season after Grayson left.
Quote:Saint Maul
Makepeace-Cubitt has just been selected to start for England Under 20s v Coventry and he started the final deciding 6 Nations game where England beat France. So I’m hoping he is the one that grows into that longer-term genuine back-up for Smith at fly-half so we don’t need to call on Furbank. It’s been a risk area this season after Grayson left.
Furbank been fine as backup 10, I don’t think there’s a better backup 10 in the league… and he started at internationals there! (Which was so wrong LOL)
But I’d love another decent option, as I see a lot of our attacking threat comes from George at 15, so would much rather we keep him playing there!
Much like Goode at Sarries, a 15 who can step in to 10 but a better full back. I agree, I hope M-C makes the grade. He certinly looked to have all the right skills playing in an England shirt
Hopefully Savala provides class at 10 this year now he knows the team/style and I think he might be able to cover a centre position also if need be.
Quote:Chris Hoddle
WE will need a 10 when Furbank and Smith are both away for England
Now the Premiership is 10 teams and it’s not a World Cup year, England squad should not miss any Premiership games, the league will be structured around availability
Or that is what the PRL and clubs have been banging on about for last few years about how they want to structure the league!
Neil they said that last year and we missed games to training sessions and “mandatory rests”. We also started after the World Cup, this year we have to make room for the Autumn internationals
Quote:Neil-HQuote:Chris Hoddle
WE will need a 10 when Furbank and Smith are both away for England
Now the Premiership is 10 teams and it’s not a World Cup year, England squad should not miss any Premiership games, the league will be structured around availability
Or that is what the PRL and clubs have been banging on about for last few years about how they want to structure the league!
Think there could still be two Premiership rounds that clash with England training camps!
Quote:Chris Hoddle
Neil they said that last year and we missed games to training sessions and “mandatory rests”. We also started after the World Cup, this year we have to make room for the Autumn internationals
I know they did mate, but then claim World Cup made things more difficult.
Beginning of this season was all prem cup, because of World Cup.
this season it will be Premiership games, and the. Premier cup when autumn internationals are on…. Ofc that’s what anyone sensible would do, who knows with PRL! 😂
Quote:tigersimonQuote:Neil-HQuote:Chris Hoddle
WE will need a 10 when Furbank and Smith are both away for England
Now the Premiership is 10 teams and it’s not a World Cup year, England squad should not miss any Premiership games, the league will be structured around availability
Or that is what the PRL and clubs have been banging on about for last few years about how they want to structure the league!
Think there could still be two Premiership rounds that clash with England training camps!
I am only stating what the PRL have said themselves, with a 10 club league, they do not need to play premishership game when the EQP are away with England, so it makes their product more sellable, as the internationals are always available.
How they will do it in total, who knows?
Asssuming the PGP agreement between PRL & the RFU has England Training Camps in it, there are not another weekends in the season to avoid a clash with either a camp or international no matter what Bull PRL may say!
I note Geordie Irvine has signed for Ealing Trailfinders, good move I'd have thought.
As tigersimon said this year EQP Internationals were missing for the two games around the 6 Nations. The one before because they were in camp and "a game" after as they need mandated rest.
Because of the RWC this year we were also missing EQP Internationals in the first couple of games of the season I believe?
Given we had 4 or 6 fewer games this season I wonder if the % they were unavailable has changed much?
Tbh I'm not sure it's worked terribly well.
Because of the RWC this year we were also missing EQP Internationals in the first couple of games of the season I believe?
Given we had 4 or 6 fewer games this season I wonder if the % they were unavailable has changed much?
Tbh I'm not sure it's worked terribly well.
So 5 games of an 18 game season and most teams probably gave them additional rest weeks too.
Just checked a few for Sarries; George 13 Prem games, Maro 10 Prem games, Earl 9.
Sorry just realised this has gone O/T but thought it was interesting enough to follow up on.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:29:20:29:23 by OldMarovian.
Just checked a few for Sarries; George 13 Prem games, Maro 10 Prem games, Earl 9.
Sorry just realised this has gone O/T but thought it was interesting enough to follow up on.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:29:20:29:23 by OldMarovian.
Matt Arden has signed for Nottingham having been on loan to us for a large chunk of the season.
There is a very good article on the recruitment process and current situation in the Telegraph, well worth a read but probably behind the paywall.
[archive.ph]
[archive.ph]
Guessing Odendaal’s latest knee injury could be career ending? Great shame if so.
Quote:
Hunter paisami
So after the hangover and elation of last weekend has finally subsided, just reviewing the leavers / new signings list we do look to have considerably more going out that coming in.
Allied to the news concerning Saints being on the lookout for a centre with Odendaal’s injury looking like a long-term one, just wondered where everyone feels we are in terms of recruitment and what may still be needed.
We only really have a couple of experienced singings in Kemeny and West coming in, the others appearing more to be developmental signings.
One would assume we have a decent chunk of room within the cap given the names departing and the extension of the cap coming in this year. Whilst I would think some of that will be accounted for in larger contracts for a number of our announced resignings (as well as future ones - Freeman etc) it would seem we could have scope for dare I say a top name player or two.
Centre, back-row and lock look like the areas we are lightest in now and whilst we have some youngsters like Lockett and Pollock to come in in those areas, do we think we are likely to see any significant signings in those areas or any linked names I’ve not seen?
Evidently as champions we have a fantastic core of a team, think it’s critical to strike while the irons hot in terms of keeping that squad progressing and ensuring as much as possible we don’t lose too much with the guys going this year (Courtney aside as I just don’t think there’s a viable replacement for him in world rugby).
Be interested to know how others think we stand now and what we can expect to see in the coming weeks and months.
Allied to the news concerning Saints being on the lookout for a centre with Odendaal’s injury looking like a long-term one, just wondered where everyone feels we are in terms of recruitment and what may still be needed.
We only really have a couple of experienced singings in Kemeny and West coming in, the others appearing more to be developmental signings.
One would assume we have a decent chunk of room within the cap given the names departing and the extension of the cap coming in this year. Whilst I would think some of that will be accounted for in larger contracts for a number of our announced resignings (as well as future ones - Freeman etc) it would seem we could have scope for dare I say a top name player or two.
Centre, back-row and lock look like the areas we are lightest in now and whilst we have some youngsters like Lockett and Pollock to come in in those areas, do we think we are likely to see any significant signings in those areas or any linked names I’ve not seen?
Evidently as champions we have a fantastic core of a team, think it’s critical to strike while the irons hot in terms of keeping that squad progressing and ensuring as much as possible we don’t lose too much with the guys going this year (Courtney aside as I just don’t think there’s a viable replacement for him in world rugby).
Be interested to know how others think we stand now and what we can expect to see in the coming weeks and months.
I suspect that there are a good number of our current squad who have had significant incresases in their pay in the last year having broken through onto the international scene. This will have consumed a good chunk of capacity within the cap even allowing for our big name departures. I’d like to think that next season may see Litchfield blossom into the role`Odendaal has been playing for us but it might be too soon? It’s a difficult task balancing the squad, do we bring in a known performer or do we trust an youngster to break through. If we leaave them with limited game time will they continue to develop?
TBH, I rather trust the system at the moment, it’s finally proven itself and I can’t believe Dowse and Co won’t have a plan for next season.
TBH, I rather trust the system at the moment, it’s finally proven itself and I can’t believe Dowse and Co won’t have a plan for next season.
You would hope as champions we are seen as a good team to sign for where players know they will get exposure at the highest level. Might help with recruitment
Interesting one regards centre. Our main choices are Odendall, Hutchinson, Dingwall, Litchfield and then Freeman + Seabrook can cover … I think also Savala could cover centre also (seems Matavesi didn’t make it). So guessing as mentioned perhaps Burger has a long term injury which would not be good news.
Beyond that, props (always need props) and a Samu Manoa type Lock who can cover a back row spot if needed sounds ideal, whether promoted via the academy or bring in a southern hemisphere player with some experience.
Beyond that, props (always need props) and a Samu Manoa type Lock who can cover a back row spot if needed sounds ideal, whether promoted via the academy or bring in a southern hemisphere player with some experience.
If odendaals Injury is bad and we are getting a centre . I would be happy with that and a lock . I think our squad would be strong enough to compete at the top end again. Think we should see more of pollock this next season. I really hope so anyway.
Quote:Saint dolph
If odendaals Injury is bad and we are getting a centre . I would be happy with that and a lock . I think our squad would be strong enough to compete at the top end again. Think we should see more of pollock this next season. I really hope so anyway.
+1
Saw it mentioned on Twitter that Matty Proctor, formally of this parish, will be looking for a new club as a result of the Rebels going under.
Always rated him highly during his time here, perhaps he’d be open to a return if the finances worked.
Always rated him highly during his time here, perhaps he’d be open to a return if the finances worked.
Quote:SaintRich
Saw it mentioned on Twitter that Matty Proctor, formally of this parish, will be looking for a new club as a result of the Rebels going under.
Always rated him highly during his time here, perhaps he’d be open to a return if the finances worked.
I'd welcome proctor back but I'd go after david feliuai another centre who's at the rebels. Younger and can play 12 and 13.
Proctor was great in that he covered 13 and wing. Wing is the one position we have multiple options. I don't think he offered the direct ball carrying role that Odendaal has done.
Sadly, I suspect that a lot of players will have made plans for next season. Perhaps we might be able to sign an injury cover loan or end up buy out a contract
Sadly, I suspect that a lot of players will have made plans for next season. Perhaps we might be able to sign an injury cover loan or end up buy out a contract
Virimi Vakatawa will not be at Bristol Bears next season, the club have confirmed. He can't play in France. Wonder where he could be going?
I'm also wondering about .. Stooke
Ah forgot the driving thing. Might put us off.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:06:25:16:06:29 by Scrumpy Half.
Ah forgot the driving thing. Might put us off.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:06:25:16:06:29 by Scrumpy Half.
Vakatawa and stooke would be brilliant. I do feel we would need to make vakatawa fitter tho.
Quote:Saint dolph
Vakatawa and stooke would be brilliant. I do feel we would need to make vakatawa fitter tho.
Stooke OK
Vakatawa no thank you
Vakatawa was brilliant at the start of last season then dropped down the pecking order.
I did hear a rumour that it’s because he fell out with Pat Lam and thus didn’t get played any more. My Bristol mate says apparently that happens a lot with Lam.
I did hear a rumour that it’s because he fell out with Pat Lam and thus didn’t get played any more. My Bristol mate says apparently that happens a lot with Lam.
I wonder if saints are talking to somebody like Ollie Devoto regards a centre injury cover? Could be a good signing for somebody if he stays fit.
I see that Elliott Stooke is leaving Bath.
No destination mentioned
Age - 30
No destination mentioned
Age - 30
George Smith confirmed. Sorry if that’s old news. Was in the press yesterday. Sounds like a good signing. Big lad!
Within 2 days (and 2 signings), it already feels like we're in a much stronger position. I know Moon did get better in the last couple of years, but these 2 acquisitions, along with improvement on Munga and Lockett, definitely feels like we've now got adequate replacements and are well-stocked in the second row.
Given our quality at hooker and centre I suspect any further signings will be less superstar, nailed on starters and more in the cost effective cover bracket.
Our backs are quality. The question mark, for me, is whether there is enough experience and quality in our forwards. My gut says we are a little shy on what’s needed to defend our title and the coaches will need to over-deliver from with the forward squad we have. Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Our backs are quality. The question mark, for me, is whether there is enough experience and quality in our forwards. My gut says we are a little shy on what’s needed to defend our title and the coaches will need to over-deliver from with the forward squad we have. Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Quote:Saint Maul
Given our quality at hooker and centre I suspect any further signings will be less superstar, nailed on starters and more in the cost effective cover bracket.
Our backs are quality. The question mark, for me, is whether there is enough experience and quality in our forwards. My gut says we are a little shy on what’s needed to defend our title and the coaches will need to over-deliver from with the forward squad we have. Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Centres I believe Deveto, Moroni and Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) are still free Agents.
Hookers may involve looking in the Championship unless Cruise can be encouraged to stay fit and be available in an emergency!
I really hope except against us!, that West gets back to his Wasps/Tigers form.
Duplicate
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:06:29:12:10:29 by tigersimon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:06:29:12:10:29 by tigersimon.
Quote:Saint Maul
...Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Does anyone know much about Kemeny? I thought he was "solid performer with room to grow" rather than "seasoned veteran"
Quote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Saint Maul
...Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Does anyone know much about Kemeny? I thought he was "solid performer with room to grow" rather than "seasoned veteran"
Defintiely not a seasoned professional.
But been playing for 6 seasons and has won just two caps for Australia. Both from the bench
Quote:LongersQuote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Saint Maul
...Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Does anyone know much about Kemeny? I thought he was "solid performer with room to grow" rather than "seasoned veteran"
Defintiely not a seasoned professional.
But been playing for 6 seasons and has won just two caps for Australia. Both from the bench
So what qualifies as a "seasoned professional"?
Quote:SantiagoQuote:LongersQuote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Saint Maul
...Our recruits will need to deliver (Hunter-Hill and Kemeny) and promising existing players with less experience will really need to step up (Haffar, Munga, Pollock) if we are to have a decent chance IMHO. Not impossible but it feels like a taller order than last season.
Does anyone know much about Kemeny? I thought he was "solid performer with room to grow" rather than "seasoned veteran"
Defintiely not a seasoned professional.
But been playing for 6 seasons and has won just two caps for Australia. Both from the bench
So what qualifies as a "seasoned professional"?
In my book, someone who is a bit older. And who has played a few more than 50 games.
Darbon mentioned that there were 2 signings to announce. Was this before Matavesi and the search for a centre?
Hopefully we still have 2 to announce.
Hopefully we still have 2 to announce.
I think George Smith and Calum H-H have been announced since then, so maybe hoping for two more is a little optimistic
I believe Jonathan Davies is currently unemployed - he would make a nice stop-gap centre?
Surely the worst kept secret in some time, but Nathan Langdon confirmed then. Partly perhaps to increase our brothers quota with the Waller and Matavesi departures
Yep, excellent move, it wouldn’t be Saints without the brothers! So, how many pairs of brothers have represented the club?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:07:25:22:21:33 by Sir Hector.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:07:25:22:21:33 by Sir Hector.
The Garside brothers spent some time on the pitch together in the Stormers friendly, as I recall.
The Off’y now has placeholders for the squad. 57 players in total including 8 I think senior academy. So a base squad of 49. Sounds about right to me. I suspect we’re well inside the cap but on budget with perhaps some wriggle room to recruit one more if the right player suddenly becomes available.
I think you'll find that 18-19 of these are senior academy. Maybe 8 are new academy.
Well the squad has been updated with new pics. There are still 57 named and yes probably 8 new academy but a good number on existing academy contracts so the numbers aren’t clear. TRP last week had Litchfield and Lockett being promoted from their academy contracts but these might be the only two
Could we see a little bit of experimentation by Dowse using people in their alternate positions. Would love to see Kemmeny tried at centre, Pollock would be a great option too. Couldn't believe the wheels on Kemmeny against Bedford. Could we see the return of a Tiny pick and go. With Kemmenys wheels he'd be very difficult to stop.
'Northampton Saints turn to giant lock Will Spencer" as an injury replacement
No official announcement yet
[www.rugbypass.com]
No official announcement yet
[www.rugbypass.com]
Quote:Deesaint
Was hoping that was a spelling mistake and it was Will Skelton
Any word on George Smith? No mention in either of the warm-up games, in the sqaud or in the unavailable list. But I did wonder about our "stock" when I saw ASY packing down there.
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