What a difference a week makes, with most Bath fans in abject despair after the part self inflicted Wasps loss turning to euphoria after the stunning win at the potential banana skin that is Harlequins on their own patch, left even the blackest of black depressive Bath fans strangely quiet. Most encouragingly the young guns and not so young squad members proved their worth so perhaps now this is the perfect time to rest some of the big guns against Worcester mid week.
It could be a very straight forward decision for Hoops and the coaching team with switching the bench to starters from the Quins game or more likely a more radical selection to balance player time, utilising squad depth where we have it and more game time for returning stars. Lets also not forget we have to play close rivals Sale in the race for a top four spot next Sunday so resting key men for this a must, but let's not lose sight of a loss to Worcester would be serious dent in any ambitions Bath might have. Would you risk a brave selection?
What to make of Worcester? Perennial 10th / 11th finishers in the premiership, just the one win since the restart against a lacklustre Harlequins, swept away by Bristol in the second half of their latest match and Bath not the most happy hunting ground for them makes this on paper an uphill struggle for Worcester. A quirk of the fixture list for next Sunday pairs them with close rivals in the table London Irish, so if Worcester are still aspiring to the prized eight place spot they potentially might be in the same position in Bath in needing to keep the troops fresh for the following game.
However let's not write off Worcester just yet, we have seen more than one side struggle to breakdown a determined Worcester and I suspect both teams fielding very different selections to what might be considered their strongest could level the playing field or on the other hand a rather lop sided affair and a bonus point win for the Blue, Black and White. That's one of the upsides in the restart fixture list you just can't be sure of most things...I suspect complacency will be Bath's biggest enemy in this fixture
As a sub for the first choice PG Tips I'd like to remind you he's walking across northern Spain for charity so if you would like to make a donation please visit the O/T thread
Looks like Worcester may well target their London Irish game at the weekend so their team should be a bit mix and match, too. I'd be tempted to trust a second-ish XV for this one and hope we get 4 points.
Something like:
Boyce, Walker, Judge (anyone know how close H Thomas or Schoemann are?)
McNally, Spencer (bit heavy but we seem to be a light lock light)
Williams/Ellis, Mercer, Underhill (good backrow for a 2nd XV!)
Green, Matevasi
Redpath, Clark/Green
JCok (if not, GHW), TdG, Roko (Is Atkins fit? A shame we don't have L Davis anymore!)
dr.bath1865 Looks like Worcester may well target their London Irish game at the weekend so their team should be a bit mix and match, too. I'd be tempted to trust a second-ish XV for this one and hope we get 4 points.
Something like:
Boyce, Walker, Judge (anyone know how close H Thomas or Schoemann are?)
McNally, Spencer (bit heavy but we seem to be a light lock light)
Williams/Ellis, Mercer, Underhill (good backrow for a 2nd XV!)
Green, Matevasi
Redpath, Clark/Green
JCok (if not, GHW), TdG, Roko (Is Atkins fit? A shame we don't have L Davis anymore!)
If we reckon Wuss are going light, I'd be very tempted to start strong, aim for a BP as early as possible, and mass substutions as soon as poss. Of course, every strategy is prone to going horribly wrong - and you don't want to end up with tired bodies in a big bun fight. But a bird in the hand, and all that. And we could very easily go to Sale fully loaded and fresh and still come away with nothing. They have a formidable first choice XV.
Having said that - that pack of yours really should be more than capable of controlling the game.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:09:07:11:46:57 by Optimist.
We should.......we need, to be targeting 5 points to make up for the inexplicable Wasps loss.
Surely RP cannot be tired after all all he did on Saturday was kick for penalties and goals..........how tiring is that?
So I like the idea of JM in the centre and bringing on OB on 60 minutes when we are 29 points ahead (five scores). I think the match report was a tad on the frivolous side.............oh hang on!
I agree................but I thought we had moved away from the dragging a defeat from the jaws of a victory.........
In the lead with 8 minutes to go we need to not lose from that position. Play keep ball and "game management" to the fore and play the game in the opponents half and defend the half way line like it is our try line. Frustrate the hell out of them and run the clock down so the pressure shifts on to them.
dr.bath1865 Looks like Worcester may well target their London Irish game at the weekend so their team should be a bit mix and match, too. I'd be tempted to trust a second-ish XV for this one and hope we get 4 points.
Something like:
Boyce, Walker, Judge (anyone know how close H Thomas or Schoemann are?)
McNally, Spencer (bit heavy but we seem to be a light lock light)
Williams/Ellis, Mercer, Underhill (good backrow for a 2nd XV!)
Green, Matevasi
Redpath, Clark/Green
JCok (if not, GHW), TdG, Roko (Is Atkins fit? A shame we don't have L Davis anymore!)
Agree with all this. Pretty much the team i would pick. I expect wuss to name a largely second string but who knows!
I think main decision is do you load the bench or give some top players some complete rest mentally and physically.....or mix and match the bench.
I think we are playing with fire asking big front 5 forwards to play every 4/5 days. Hand is being forced a little as dont think schoeman is in the country yet and verden has been match day cover by looks of it so assume henry out?
Our side will definitely be rotated from Bristol - only potential first team present are likely to be Lewis, Beck, Pennell and Searle. The rest will be academy/young players or fringe team.
15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Semesa Rokoduguni, 13. Max Clark, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Gabriel Hamer-Webb, 10. Josh Matavesi, 9. Will Chudley; 1. Lewis Boyce, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Christian Judge, 4. Josh McNally (C), 5. Elliott Stooke, 6. Tom Ellis, 7. Miles Reid, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Ross Batty, 17. Juan Schoeman, 18. Kieran Verden, 19. Mike Williams, 20. Sam Underhill, 21. Max Green, 22. Orlando Bailey, 23. Jonathan Joseph
Warriors Team (I can't say that I recognise too many).
15 Chris Pennell, 14 Nick David, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Will Butler (C), 11 Ed Fidow, 10 Billy Searle, 9 Jono Kitto, 1 Callum Black, 2 Beck Cutting, 3 Richard Palframan, 4 Justin Clegg, 5 James Scott, 6 Matt Cox, 7 Sam Lewis, 8 Tom Dodd.
Replacements | 16 Isaac Miller, 17 Kai Owen, 18 Joe Morris, 19 Ted Hill, 20 Matti Williams, 21 Gareth Simpson, 22 Scott van Breda, 23 Alex Hearle.
[23/24 adoptee: Will Butt]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:09:08:12:30:12 by BathMatt53.
Good looking team. A nice mix and a sensible amount of rotation means that we should have enough to get the 4/5 points and send a full strength team to Sale. Excited to see Redpath and Clark partner up and that backrow in action. I would've started Green over Chudley but hoping Spencer is pushing all the 9s to up their game/ quicken their service/ flap arms less etc.
Bailey on the bench with Underhill and JJ... What fun for that young man. Well done him and look forward to seeing him come on with 30 to go when we're 30 ahead.
I would have expected to see w Spencer in this team. does that mean he starts v sale?
wright must be injured. we haven't seen him at all. he also sat out the 15 v 15 training run at the rec last month.
at last we see young Bailey. only 18 so we shouldn't expect too much from the lad. looking forward to seeing how he goes with redpath and some of his old beechen cliff mates.
bardofavon I would have expected to see w Spencer in this team. does that mean he starts v sale?
wright must be injured. we haven't seen him at all. he also sat out the 15 v 15 training run at the rec last month.
at last we see young Bailey. only 18 so we shouldn't expect too much from the lad. looking forward to seeing how he goes with redpath and some of his old beechen cliff mates.
I expect 1 good line break, 5 flat passes to put Redpath in the gap, 50 metre touches, a drop goal and 1 off the tea in his 20 minutes. The crunching hits can come next week. If we don't get it get Bruce on the plane to Montpellier at the earliest opportunity.
Sam Harris
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Having seen the free to air game v Quins I was disappointed to see Watson sat with a leg in a plastic tub of presumably ice water after he came off. Any news on his injury? He looked glum, well until the interception try anyway.
Looks a really sensible selection to me but guess we will only know at 10pm this eve!
Wuss look a fair way from full strength and glad we have backed the squad and getting some game time into players that may be needed further down the line.
Would have been seriously risky to try and get 2 more games in quick succession out of the likes of beno, dunn, stuart, ewels, spencer, priestland.
Great to have schoeman as an option. Assume thomas and w spencer injured?
Optimist We haven't yet seen: Catt, Thomas, Joe C - known injuries; or Doughty, Vaughan, Fox, Atkins.
First appearances - iirc - this evening for: Batty, Schoeman, Green, Bailey and two Academy players - Verden and Bailey.
Frustratingly, the offie site doesn't say which side of the scrum props play on. Has Verden leapfrogged Vaughan, or do they play different sides?
Rumour that catty has been forced to retire, very sad but doesnt surprise me. Sounded like he wouldnt be back til next year even if everything went well. Schoemans signing on a multi yr contract made me suspect there were at least doubts.
Verden is tighthead so assume henry t is unavailable as verden is 4th choice on paper. Effectively stepped up to fill nixons departure i guess.
Imagine vaughan is next cab off the rank behind schoeman on the loose head side.
Agree bo. And it should have a positive effect on squad depth for all clubs going forward. There are lots of players who wouldn't have seen the light of day within the normal season - so this has been one hell of a 'pre-season' for the likes of TdG for us, and Stephen Varney, Crean, Heyes and others elsewhere.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
We don't seem as sharp as Wasps were earlier at the moment. Still plenty of time to earn 5pts tho'...
Adopted players: 23/24 O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
I wish Mercer would cut out the showboating! There is a reason TF is a Lion and frankly I’d drop Zac until he grows up a bit.
2. Despite the laidback-ness and the errors, Matavesi is sure showing why Freddie was so utterly cr*p in comparison.
Despite the laidback-ness and the errors, Matavesi is sure showing why Freddie was so utterly cr*p in comparison.
FLAP[/quote]
Not sure I agree! Fun to watch him barging through 2 tackles for a try and a couple of good crossfield kicks but plenty of dodgy moments and in a tight game you're playing a risky game relying on JM to kick points. I'm really glad we held on to him and he offers good cover at 10 and centre but we were playing a weak side tonight. We won through our physicality and decent ball retention. I won't judge the backs harshly given the circumstances of these midweek games and there are some good young individuals there, but a bit manic at times when we did try and go wide. Lawrence and their South African winger were quality.
sid the seagull I wish Mercer would cut out the showboating! There is a reason TF is a Lion and frankly I’d drop Zac until he grows up a bit.
2. Despite the laidback-ness and the errors, Matavesi is sure showing why Freddie was so utterly cr*p in comparison.
Just for a moment I thought Orlando was going to wriggle in on his debut at the end. Did nothing wrong and doesn't look out of place at all. Got to love Josh M though!
Sam Harris
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Interesting point by Ellis in post match Vox pop saying how pleased they were to keep up performance despite lack, inevitably, of on field training time.
Lightbulb: guys that aren’t over-coached enjoy themselves more, self-motivate AND perform better.
Massive love for Josh Matavesi, he's such a joy to watch. I think his calm, positive attitude has had a hugely positive impact on the squad. Is he the biggest flyhalf to play for Bath?
Bepetas Massive love for Josh Matavesi, he's such a joy to watch. I think his calm, positive attitude has had a hugely positive impact on the squad. Is he the biggest flyhalf to play for Bath?
He's a joy to watch and, I an sure fun to play with too. Easy to say when we sre winning, but the team spirit looks good at the moment.
Personally I’d like to see ZM offloading from these runs rather than getting tackled and rely on his teammates to get to the breakdown and recycle.
He’s one of my favourite players and an easy pick ahead of Faletau for Bath. Got to aim higher than that though. To get more England caps he needs to bring his players into the game more. He’s definitely got the hands for it.
hasta Lots of Ballsout posts to pick through, I see...
Two poor mistakes, two scores against, bit annoying. Otherwise they didn't have a sniff. Great depth in the squad.
Sid, could not disagree more, Mercer works his bottom off and is always carrying.
If one side is so dominant with so much possession it sort of makes those scores more likely.
How can you not love Josh M? I lmao when he batted those guys for his try.
Don’t want to tempt fate, but something is very different since lockdown, in a positive way. Spencer and Hats of course, but the entire squad seems to be acting like the ‘team’ we have been desperate to see.
Kudos to Hoops and Hats, this is rugby worth watching.
Danchinho Personally I’d like to see ZM offloading from these runs rather than getting tackled and rely on his teammates to get to the breakdown and recycle.
He’s one of my favourite players and an easy pick ahead of Faletau for Bath. Got to aim higher than that though. To get more England caps he needs to bring his players into the game more. He’s definitely got the hands for it.
I'm a huge Zach Mercer fan, but I'm not convinced carrying the extra weight he's put on in the lockdown period suits him. He seems to carry with 5% more momentum but 10% less agility, I just don't think it suits his game. He's never going to carry like Billy Vunipola, but then Billy will never be able to do some to the things Zach does. It's like the Zinzan Brook vs Buck Shelford argument, there will never be a winner. Back rows, packs, teams need to work together with some kind of balance that fits the game plan. Trying to manipulate player to fit a game plan will never work.
Very well played. Yes it wasn't perfect but we are effective in a limited sort of way. Our scrum wasn't good early on, giving up penalties at the set up.
Our backs moves (now that is a novelty saying that about Bath) looked laboured and inaccurate at times but at least we tried some. Thought Chudley was sharp and inventive, and was the main supporter when we drove over the line twice. Matevesi was always relaxed. Too relaxed at times especially when kicking for goal.
However, he was one of our best leaders of tackling and defence which was wondrous to see.
I thought Stooke was my man of the match, always involved in all the dirty graft of the pack as well as being very prominent in open play and tackling defence. Ellis ws good but again IMV was shaded by Miles Reid who was top class.
As much as Redpath and. TdG excites, I am a real fan of Gabe Hanmer-Webb. I wish we could get him into space and let us see what he could do.
Very well done lads. The results have far exceeded my expectations after the season start and I hope we can build on it next season as well. In vieevofvthevremaining fixtures, I cannot see us making the play offs but would be extrememly happy if we did make it.
Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano
Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni
Chudley has rightfully taken some stick, but tonight he was sharp. He was quick, his box kicking was generally better and he also looked to snipe from around the ruck at least once, maybe even twice.
Was a good watch for the most part, a little agitated by the dropped restart and their resulting try though
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:09:09:22:44:19 by supermarinematt.
Real dilemma in the back row now, picking on performance rather than reputation who do you pick. I'd pick Tom Ellis, Josh Baylis and Miles Reid, yes I know it doesn't work but they are our best performers.
P.S. Matevesi's comment to Hooper after the game was, "I can either bounce of second rows or kick but I can't do both!
Sam Harris
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Hasta and Opti, I know where you are coming from but a lot of those ‘clever’ passes weren't really needed at the time and would have been destroyed by a better side then Wuss.
Also he doesn’t do enough simple/gainline (for others) passes, he’ll be found out on a bigger stage unless he starts thinking more.
Hasta and Opti, I know where you are coming from but a lot of those ‘clever’ passes weren't really needed at the time and would have been destroyed by a better side then Wuss.
Also he doesn’t do enough simple/gainline (for others) passes, he’ll be found out on a bigger stage unless he starts thinking more.
It's a cliché but you can only play what's in front of you. We won and we won well.
That's not to say there aren't things that we can, and need, to improve and for all our forward dominance, I still dream of a bit more cohesion in the backline.
This was a 2nd team, of sorts, and I think a lot of these guys are challenging for 1st team - if not more. It's not a bad situation we find ourselves in...
Mercer’s got great hands and I think he should make that his USP. Offloads. Get runners on his shoulder and I think he could some clever stuff. Would take him to the next level imo.
Thought Reid’s speed around the park was a big plus. Him and Bayliss have pace. If they could learn to use that in attack they’d be a genuine threat at 6 & 7.
I also think Walker has a different skill set to Dunn and is showing his point of difference and qualities that set him apart rather than just being a back up.
Lastly (for tonight) just loved how our 3rd or was it 4th? Choice front row came on and just motored thro theirs at their first scrum. Happy days are here again, de-dah dah-dah, Dee-dah, de . . .
With continual changes of lineup & little opportunity to train together a lack of fluency in the backs may be excused but other teams are having to do the same & we seem to struggle more than most.
I never expect our back line to sythe through defenses & that is invariably the case. There have been lots of other improvements which is great but we are still struggling in that department.
On Mercer - just imagine him playing for Bristol, where other players expect offloads and quick taps and other sorts of spontaneity. You could criticise him for going off script, but I think in the right set up he’d be an absolute rock star. Hopefully our style of play will evolve such that he does that with us.
Our back play tonight was execrable in attack, but great in defence once again. Chudley did put real pace on the game by whipping the ball away early, but in doing so his passing accuracy went to pot, chucking it head high and loopy on too many occasions, which left the receiver cramped for space. Even when we get decent ball beyond 10, the timing of runs and passes is dismal. When we turn the ball over the first instinct is just to hoof it away or slow it down.
But we are a bloooky effective rugby machine right now, and being positive, there is so much room for improvement that the sky is the limit.
We have 2 x front rows, 2 x second-rows, 2 x back rows - and our best backs are the youngest ones.
And anyone who thinks an in-form Burns wouldn’t have absolutely thrived in that game must be certifiable. Matavesi is a fantastic character, and as good a kick-return option as many forwards. But that was a VERY forgiving game and opposition this evening. We probably made 25-30 errors, but Wuss just said ‘hold my beer’ every time.
In a couple of these games we have seen extravagant attempts to keep the ball alive, they haven't worked but it does indicate that the backs are authorised to experiment and are no told to 'play safe'.
I hope they keep it up, one day it will come off and the result will be spectacular. Keep it up!
Sam Harris
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
‘ In a couple of these games we have seen extravagant attempts to keep the ball alive’ - only really once it’s become apparent that we are way too strong for the opposition and that mistakes are unlikely to be very costly. The real sign is when players have the confidence to pull off a difficult skill in a properly meaningful contest at a critical point. I’m willing to bet we won’t see anyone passing it between their legs up at Sale.
Lovely to see that we've got a very strong group of young lads coming through. Redpath, Tom De Glanville and Reid looked as brilliant as they have done since the restart, Bailey looks like he has bags of potential and good to see Verden get the best of his opposite number when he came on.
RE Matavesi, seems to be the exact kind of player we needed, bit like when Kahn Fotuali'i signed. A real leader type who leads from the front lines - something we've lacked over recent years.
A dominant performance with a largely rotated squad. I thought the news boys did well and the squad all seemed to be on the same page. A shame about the two errors for the Wuss tries, but they should keep people grounded!
What can you say about Josh M? A terrific effort at fly half again.
Dare I say it? we are looking like a well coached squad, all the players including the youngsters buying into our current style of play with enthusiasm!
Naturally very pleased with the result last night but I do think a large measure of realism needs to be injected into the debate before we start kidding ourselves that we are world beaters. I accept that you can only play against what is put out before you, but Worcester were a very young and largely inexperienced side against a Bath side which was largely the opposite in key positions (i know we blooded some youngsters). We are however beginning to look far more of a cohesive unit, our set play is strong and our back rows are formidable (any combination).
Josh Matavesi is a very talented player who is strong and brings something special to the team, but I would not like to rely on his skills at Number 10 playing against good opposition that press hard, nor would I like to rely on his place kicking in tight matches.
My biggest concern is still the lack of creativity from the backs as a unit. Individually you would say that they are playing well especially in defence, but going forward with ball in hand they just seem to drift across the field, so certainly work in progress but looking better.
The Mercer debate will rumble on about just how good he is or will be. He has an abundance of talent and is very special although not sure the watching Eddie Jones will have been impressed with the pass between his legs. He has a tendency to pick up the ball and then run laterally before going forward and crossing the gain line. He effectively runs away from his supporting players before crossing the gain line which is high risk especially against hard hitting quick opponents. I suppose it is all about balance and would not like to see his skills stifled.
Really pleased to see the team performing as they are at the moment but I think I will err on the side of caution at the moment.
I dont think that anyone thinks beating Worcester in the strange scenario we find ourselves in means we are world beaters or challengers.
My take is that for the last few years I have questioned why I bother to watch sometimes and i stopped buying a season ticket as a result. It has been on the whole turgid rubbish. The last 2 matches have been fun.
Also its a given that if we play a better team then it will be harder to beat them and errors will cost. Can we just have that as a given, its stating the bleeding obvious.
"Also its a given that if we play a better team then it will be harder to beat them and errors will cost. Can we just have that as a given, its stating the bleeding obvious"
.... reasonable point, that!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:09:10:10:52:23 by Optimist.
From a Worcs perspective I think your coaches/players got the tactics spot on in the first half. We have only seen glimmers of performances since the resumption, when we actually have some possession.
Your pack was bigger and they played to their strengths in the 1st half to tire us out and starve us of ball, which opened up the space/created tired bodies later. Good tactics and game management. I think a more open/unstructured game would have given us more opportunity to get into the game and get more scrappy tries, so fancy backs moves probably weren't the right decision anyway!
Edit: I wish we had Zach Mercer (I wouldn't complain )
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:09:10:15:06:13 by Warrior7.
Just watched the game. One comment. I enjoyed Josh Matavesi"s performance enormously, dodgy kicking and all. He may not be a great 10 but he is a great leader and *that* is what we've been missing in the backs. We're now trying things in the backs which means that the opposition have to pay attention out wide which spreads the defence and gives us chances elsewhere. Plus his 10 channel defence is epic. I hope we can keep him fit cos we're a different side with him in it. Not necessarily better, but different, and having that Plan B is more than enough.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:09:11:07:25:02 by joethefanatic.
It really looked like everyone was enjoying playing and playing for each other.
I thought Chudleigh had a good game however as mentioned above by Opti at times his pass looked slightly laboured, particularly off his left hand where he uses his shoulders to "heave" the ball. However I think I am just being picky.
Its now a three from four for the final three places.
Our game against Saracens is looking like a decider!
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