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SaintsAsh
How is Furbank injured? A training accident?

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saintsfella
What’s wrong with Tony I wonder… seems to me that Furbz is off. Maybe because it’s a new injury!

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

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Smooothsides

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saintsfella
What’s wrong with Tony I wonder… seems to me that Furbz is off. Maybe because it’s a new injury!

I would imagine its related to the cut in the mouth that forced him off at the end of the quins game

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St Stokey.
My only concern is the backs cover. Ramm clearly a back 3 player, so I would imagine that Todaro would move in to cover centres and Hutch would cover Fin. Just feels a little makeshift.

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Smooothsides

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

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tigersimon

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Smooothsides

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

Coles could have started at 6?

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tigersimon

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Smooothsides

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undersizedprop2
Interesting that Pollock displaces Callum from 8 - predict some picking from the base with explosive pace.

Without Kemeny and because of the 2nd row injuries, it leaves Chick as the only other option at 6.

Coles could have started at 6?

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tigersimon

Given the N/A the surprises for me were no TJ on the bench (extra 10 cover).

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Sir Hector
I can’t recall how much Bordeaux kicked in the final, not so much as I recall. Nore can I remember whether they played more off 9 than 10. I think Lucu did the kicking and Jallibert the running. That may change without Lucu of course.

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Smooothsides

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tigersimon

Given the N/A the surprises for me were no TJ on the bench (extra 10 cover).

I think if we're in a situation where we're relying on TJ at 10 we're going to lose the game, so there's just no point having him there. If Fin gets hurt with 5 minutes to go, i'd trust anyone to step in at 1st reciever for that length of time. If Fin gets hurt before that point, having TJ at 10 over Hutch just isn't going to make a difference, so there's no point compromising the backup 9 (albeit only slightly) for a situation that most likely leads to a loss anyway. It's not ideal but with 2 of the 3 10's injured there's nothing else to be done

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RDS
Nothing against any of those on the ‘Not Considered for Selection’ list but the one name I’d have really liked to see named in the Saints 23 is Anthony Belleau.
I think he’s as good a 10 as Fin Smith and if needed can cover other positions in the backline as well, and particularly for this game being French would’ve been another advantage.

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Sir Hector
So any views on the Bordeaux team? This was their line up for the final:-
Bordeaux team 15. Buros ; 14. Penaud, 13. Depoortere, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Lucu (cap.) ; 7. Petti, 8. Samu, 6. Diaby ; 5. Cazeaux, 4. Coleman ; 3. Falatea, 2. Lamothe, 1. Poirot.

Remplaçants : 16. Sa, 17. Boniface, 18. Tameifuna, 19. Bochaton, 20. Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Gazzotti, 22. van Rensburg, 23. Retière.

No Buros and no Lucu otherwise the same backs.

More changes amoung the pack but some familiar
names still. Woki but no Samu.

Overall they don’t look any stronger or weaker. I’d say we are a slightly stronger side from a year ago,, another year of experienc, and playing with a touch more assurity and cohesion.

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

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Sometime lurker
In the meantime, just the 63 points in the first 28 minutes in the Bulls-Bristol match. Bristol currently leading 42-21

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Smooothsides

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

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Matthew

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Smooothsides

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

Regardless of cards, the injuries made a massive difference to our back line. We lost one of the best playmaking fullbacks in Europe, meaning we had to switch our big Lions wing to fullback and not be able to target LBB aerially in the same way. Then the replacement gets crocked shortly after, and the replacement's replacement is not fully fit and firing. Does it then become any co-incidence that both of our tries were scored by forwards?

It will never be proven one way or another, but I still maintain we win that game without those injuries; and frankly am still baffled that there is apparently no duty of care involved when jumping over a player on the floor. Anyway, to tomorrow!

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Sir Hector
The rumour thread on late withdrawals looks rather worrying if there is anything in it. More interesting is the Bristol result! We need to get as much as we can from the game tomorrow and then thump Scarlets and get a huge points different to put ourselves on pole position. Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

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Sir Hector
Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

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Smooothsides

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Corkst

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Smooothsides

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JohnI
Just watched the final again, haven’t seen it since attending last year and cannot believe how much that referee missed in that match.
Furbank incident was ridiculous and the time to divert away was there, they didn’t.
Deliberate knock forward in front of the posts and the player stayed on m, no yellow but 5 mins later freeman yellow carded for a high tackle.
Head shot by 6 results in just a penalty

Unsure if this match will be little different with an inexperienced referee doing the biggest match of the weekend

All those things did happen, and there should have probably been another yellow for UBB at some point, but saints just weren't the better team at all, so I think we'd have still lost and deservedly so. I'm pretty sure all of those incidents happened in the first half, and none of those things meant that we didn't score
a single point in the second half. We were comprehensively out kicked, the UBB attack looked much more potent and much more likely to score, and we could hardly get over the gain line with the ball for the majority of the game outside of a few key bursts. It wasn't a great refereeing game, but it wasn't the reason Saints lost.

You’re making the classic mistake of assuming that if one incident changed the rest of the game stays the same. Player gets carded for hurdling Furbank unnecessarily and injuring him and the rest of the game is completely different so you can’t say we would have definitely lost. A couple of scores in that card period and UBB are in a different mindset and so are saints

I feel like I'm actually doing the opposite, we literally didn't score a point in the second half, or even get particularly close. UBB did actually get a yellow card, and we didn't capitalise at all, so i feel reasonably confident that they could have done the same earlier in the game. You could also point to the Bath game where they did get someone sent off, and we still barely scraped past, UBB are a better team than Bath were, and we we're probably better that day.
If Saints were held up over the line several times, or had tries wrongfully chalked off maybe i'd agree with you, but another yellow wouldnot have suddenly meant suddenly started outkicking UBB, or getting over the gainline with much much regularity,

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

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saintsfella

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

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tigersimon

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saintsfella

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

Tom Vickers, Chron on Social Media.
JJ still in Team Graphic which includes the changes.

[x.com]

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tigersimon

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saintsfella

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tigersimon
Fin & Ramm out of today’s game.
🇫🇷 Tony & Thame replace them.

Were you seeing that Simon? Also does that mean JJ plays or unconfirmed?

Tom Vickers, Chron on Social Media.
JJ still in Team Graphic which includes the changes.

[x.com]

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SaintsAsh
They are the better team really. They also had a couple of bits of luck to compound it further.

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Saint dolph
Question if we finish 3rd in our group but have higher points than a team finishing 2nd in their group who is the higher seed?

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tigersimon
You will have the (unfair) advantage of knowing exactly what you need to do next Sunday with Bristol v UBB having been played Sunday lunchtime!

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Stevie Myler's right boot
At times our own worst enemy however ref out of depth - Woki’s try off the kick off At least 4 were ahead of the kicker plus others as referenced

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Santiago
5 points next week and Bristol v UBB not being a draw guarantees second place in the group. A draw for B v UBB would mean we need to win by 32 points

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tigersimon
You will have the (unfair) advantage of knowing exactly what you need to do next Sunday with Bristol v UBB having been played Sunday lunchtime!

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Santiago
5 points next week and Bristol v UBB not being a draw guarantees second place in the group. A draw for B v UBB would mean we need to win by 32 points

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tigersimon

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Sir Hector
Then see how the Biz/Bord game plays out!

You have the (Unfair IMHO) advantage of knowing the result of Bris/UBB before you kick off next Sunday.

All the final games in a pool used to kick off at the same time - another thing to add to the list of things wrong with this current ‘European’ competition!

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NGSB
Fairness would be putting all the names in a hat for the Q/F and S/F stages !

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St Marcus

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NGSB
Fairness would be putting all the names in a hat for the Q/F and S/F stages !

But this would mean Leinster don't get a SF in Dublin guaranteed

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Wrench
The lineout is the downside of JJ being around - having the big non jumping lock means you need a lot from your backrows..
Chick, Pollock and Pearson are serviceable in the air but only Coles starting yesterday is a real frontline jumper. That meant bordeaux double marked him and had a spare pod to cover the rest.

It's why the biggest miss of everyone not available yesterday for me was Kemeny. He's a proper lineout operator and means teams can't concentrate on one threat and have to react more.

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LeicesterSaint
I could be wrong but it seemed like there were no relays in the coverage, any spare time meant the camera in the crowd picking out famous faces. I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?
Just listened to the bit of the good, bad and rugby and Anthony Watson certainly seemed to think it was one of those days where nothing went for us, they both saw Woki's slap down as a knock on so no try.

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LeicesterSaint
I could be wrong but it seemed like there were no relays in the coverage, any spare time meant the camera in the crowd picking out famous faces. I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?
Just listened to the bit of the good, bad and rugby and Anthony Watson certainly seemed to think it was one of those days where nothing went for us, they both saw Woki's slap down as a knock on so no try.

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LeicesterSaint
I've not seen it back due to that but my initial reaction was Manny did get low but brought his arm round to attempt a legal tackle?

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Smooothsides

I think you're spot on with this, just to add it isn't just a JJ problem, but Prowse doesn't really jump either. Pearson and Pollock are both good 3rd options, but i think you really notice it when they're 2nd. Every other game this season JJ has made up for this weakness with his round the park ability, but i don't think him or Prowse did yesterday so when Kemeny is out hopefully we see a different approuch next time, I do think if Lockett was fit we'd have seen Coles at 6.

something else I think i noticed is that in attack we actually lost shape once or twice in multi phase, which isn't something i can really remember seeing for a long time, am i wrong in thinking i saw this? if so i think that's got to just be due to the number of backs injuries and the late drop out of Fin. Him, Furbs, and Dingwall are all big organisers and Freemo just isn't experianced at 13 so maybe he does it less too?

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Sir Hector
The Woki debate is over whether he made a legitimate attempt to catch the attempted intercept. Done with a single hand this is usually judged on whether he is attempting to lift the ball with his hand or not. In this case he clearly batted it down into the ground. Because his arm was outstretched when he did this, when the ball bounced it came up towards his body allowing him to catch it. There is an argument to say that it went backwards and so is ok, there is also an argument to say that he did not have control of the ball before it hit the ground, the fact that it bounced backwards doesn’t mean it was not a knock on.
I’m unsure of the fine detail of the laws here but had he had control of the ball and scooped it backwards that would be fine but I don’t think that was the case.