Saracens
The future of European Club Rugby?
Won't look like this?
By TonyTaff
December 11 2013
As it seems as though 'negotiations' regarding the future of pan-european club rugby have had more episodes than Peyton Place, a thread of its own seems justified:
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Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 11/12/2013 10:51
TheSaracens.com
11/12/2013 10:51
11/12/2013 10:51
I've made this thread a front page article. Visits should generate picopennies for the Saracens Foundation.
I'll have wasted my time if they now find a solution promptly.
A porcine squadron has just flown by.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:12:16:33:10 by TonyTaff.
I'll have wasted my time if they now find a solution promptly.
A porcine squadron has just flown by.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:12:16:33:10 by TonyTaff.
Horse has gone, stable has been eroded by the wind and passing of time. There is no door left to close and bolt...
The deal killer will be the payments to each league if " one third per league with the stipulation that monies to be received by the Pro12 countries would not be less than the current levels."
If Sky (for Sky read ERC) are still involved, this will mean France & England loosing out, a deal breaker.
If Sky (for Sky read ERC) are still involved, this will mean France & England loosing out, a deal breaker.
Of course the real deal breaker is that the English and French, and now the Welsh, clubs won't play in any tournament which is run by ERC. So that kills this stone dead anyway.
If the English and French clubs were a little unsure of their actions when they resigned from the tournament, the behaviour and inaction of ERC in the subsequent 14 months must have confirmed to the clubs that they did the right thing.
The sooner the new tournament is up and running, and more importantly the sooner the clubs are running it, the better.
If the English and French clubs were a little unsure of their actions when they resigned from the tournament, the behaviour and inaction of ERC in the subsequent 14 months must have confirmed to the clubs that they did the right thing.
The sooner the new tournament is up and running, and more importantly the sooner the clubs are running it, the better.
Division of money percenage-wise, number of teams and qualificaion all settled it seems.
ERC has been guilty of underselling the tournament for years. ERC claimed that last season's Heneken Semi Final was so poorly attended as it had not enough time to market it, yet they misjudged completely the pricing of the tickets which were twice as much of those sold by Saracens for the qarter final. Greed and incompetnence in equal measure.
And its cosy relationship in the resturants of Dublin with IRFU and IRB has been there for all to see. I recall seeing ERC officials jumping with joy and hugging one another at full time in the 2008 semi final in Coventry. You can't tell me that there is no Irish nepotism.
ERC is on life support. Time the plug was pulled.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
ERC has been guilty of underselling the tournament for years. ERC claimed that last season's Heneken Semi Final was so poorly attended as it had not enough time to market it, yet they misjudged completely the pricing of the tickets which were twice as much of those sold by Saracens for the qarter final. Greed and incompetnence in equal measure.
And its cosy relationship in the resturants of Dublin with IRFU and IRB has been there for all to see. I recall seeing ERC officials jumping with joy and hugging one another at full time in the 2008 semi final in Coventry. You can't tell me that there is no Irish nepotism.
ERC is on life support. Time the plug was pulled.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Quote:TOKS
If the English and French clubs were a little unsure of their actions when they resigned from the tournament, the behaviour and inaction of ERC in the subsequent 14 months must have confirmed to the clubs that they did the right thing.
Yes and one of the most staggering comments from ERC in a crowded field was from someone a few days ago saying something to the effect that now they were getting somewhere and it was no problem as there was still 7 months left for negotiations
Pl
Quote:To Mega Therion
Division of money percenage-wise, number of teams and qualificaion all settled it seems.
ERC has been guilty of underselling the tournament for years. ERC claimed that last season's Heneken Semi Final was so poorly attended as it had not enough time to market it, yet they misjudged completely the pricing of the tickets which were twice as much of those sold by Saracens for the qarter final. Greed and incompetnence in equal measure.
And its cosy relationship in the resturants of Dublin with IRFU and IRB has been there for all to see. I recall seeing ERC officials jumping with joy and hugging one another at full time in the 2008 semi final in Coventry. You can't tell me that there is no Irish nepotism.
The erc were in a difficult position. If leicester had won their semi which they nearly did the ground would have been full, if ulster has beaten you which they did not come close too lansdown would have been full. Both paying full price for what is the show piece sem in the nh. The other semi was sold out with everyone paying full price for the tickets in a big venue. It would not be fair to charge these guys while discounting tickets for your game because you cannot attract a decent crowd without employing gimmicks, and such like
ERC is on life support. Time the plug was pulled.
M Lux
"C'était vraiment trop peu, et certainment trop tard"
Not exactly French idiom but then neither do I have any idea what the equivalent of 'put that in your pipe and smoke it!" would be!!!!!
"C'était vraiment trop peu, et certainment trop tard"
Not exactly French idiom but then neither do I have any idea what the equivalent of 'put that in your pipe and smoke it!" would be!!!!!
What's interesting about this is it puts a direct price on the power which the unions currently have in the Heineken Cup.
The FFR have said that they want to keep the power they have this season for next season, and they are willing to pay €28,000,000 for the privilege. So shouldn’t they be paying the French clubs that amount this season as well? 1 year's worth of 5 votes in ERC is worth €0 this year but €28,000,000 next year - no wonder they felt short-changed!
It also validates that the English clubs get a raw deal from the current Heineken Cup. After all, the RFU aren’t paying them €2,000,000 each year to stay in.
The FFR have said that they want to keep the power they have this season for next season, and they are willing to pay €28,000,000 for the privilege. So shouldn’t they be paying the French clubs that amount this season as well? 1 year's worth of 5 votes in ERC is worth €0 this year but €28,000,000 next year - no wonder they felt short-changed!
It also validates that the English clubs get a raw deal from the current Heineken Cup. After all, the RFU aren’t paying them €2,000,000 each year to stay in.
deal is going to get cobbled together somehow by both sides to keep all six nations in it the alternative is unthinkable for both parties, and the TV companies, no one is going to be attracted to the pub to watch either of the two mickey mouse cups that would replace it and the TV companies will lose interest, the only upside it that if the welsh joined the Prem then we could have more fixtures and bury the LV cup under several tons of concrete where it belongs, the alternatives in Europe that the would replace it if there is no agreement would be no better, who is going to watch English salaried cap clubs getting tonked week in week out by non salary capped French ones, or watch a Rabo direct Cup. No one watches the league at the moment let alone their own cup.
The qualification thing, which had to be changed will at least make the Rabo League more competitive, and increase attendances, they just need to compromise on ownership now, look out for a new deal where the clubs are the majority shareholders but the Unions retain a stake.
The qualification thing, which had to be changed will at least make the Rabo League more competitive, and increase attendances, they just need to compromise on ownership now, look out for a new deal where the clubs are the majority shareholders but the Unions retain a stake.
Dave - not sure - this is about control now.
The English and French clubs will not go back to the old regime of Union stooges controlling a club competition. It ceased to just be about money and qualification a long time ago.
And I completely agree with them. The clubs should control club competitions -
The English and French clubs will not go back to the old regime of Union stooges controlling a club competition. It ceased to just be about money and qualification a long time ago.
And I completely agree with them. The clubs should control club competitions -
I think I agree with BS. The unions should not have any say in the clubs or how they run their domestic competitions. They should be running the amateur game, the international game and leaving the professional game to its professional abilities. Perhaps they fear their revenue streams if the clubs started, for example, inviting Twickenham to bid for LDH, AP FInal and similar games against the rival attractions of Wembley and Old Trafford or wherever, or if they started demanding better indemnities for players released to the international game and damaged in the process. After all, Wembley have shown that they can make a good job of hosting rugby matches.
And TBH, it's difficult to argue that the all-but-expired professional game in Wales and Scotland has received any benefit from being hijacked by the local unions.
Quote:Innings
Perhaps they fear their revenue streams
I think they mostly fear for their gin- and port-soaked sinecures.
Gin, port, champagne, single malt and very good burgundy sincecures .....
Quote:BarnetSarrie
The clubs should control club competitions -
Why?
The FA controls the FA cup, Uefa controls the Champions leagues etc. Why should this be different?
Clearly the current format needed changing, and it sound like most parties now accept that, but the central point of clubs controlling the tournament, I have yet to hear a good argument for why that will be better for European rugby.
Well for a start because they've already secured a massively larger TV deal than the terminally-torpid, union-controlled ERC was able to get.
...and the fact that every business decision is predicated on what is best for the respective unions, not the clubs.
But, apart from that, no good reason for having a club competition run by clubs.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
But, apart from that, no good reason for having a club competition run by clubs.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I'm not sure international football governance is a shining example to follow - some individuals have been proven to be corrupt to some extent on several occasions and there are strong suspicions of corruption in many more cases.
Here's another reason:
Saracens vs. Ulster: 37,888
Saracens vs. Toulon: 25,584
Saracens vs. Toulouse: 61,428
And one of those matches was a semi-final...
Saracens vs. Ulster: 37,888
Saracens vs. Toulon: 25,584
Saracens vs. Toulouse: 61,428
And one of those matches was a semi-final...
Shhh crowds like that will be a thing of the past if they end up with two separate competions. The TV Audiences will fall dramatically, the AP would be stronger with the Welsh in it France does OK anyway, but there would be no meaningful completion in Europe, expect crowds around the size of the current LV crowds, if it isn't ONE meaningful completion involving all six nations. Ireland, Scotland and Italy would have to go back to being semi pro, which would kill the Six Nations and maybe even the world cup, do the clubs really want absolute control of a game that has been brought to its knees, getting outside the bubble of the ardent fans who inhabit these boards,no one is going to be intrested in the new competitions, and the TV paymasters will soon withdraw there funding as there audiences dwindle to nothing, BT Sport are in good shape because they already have the Prem, they might well be happy to see European completion go up in smoke, to make their domestic coverage with Wales included the only Rugby that people are going to watch on the box.
I don't think anyone would argue with the core of your post WD, the question is about what the end result of a unified competitive European competitive season should be. I still cleave to the idea that there should be a two-tier competition. The senior competition would be for the six top teams in each of the three domestic leagues, plus the previous season's winners of the second tier competition, with a last ticket for the previous season's winner of the top competition, or for a seventh team from that league if the winners finished in their league's top six. Second competition made up of the other teams in the three leagues, plus the winners of other local leagues in Spain, Russia etc.
Ideally ERC should run the whole thing, but TBH their present record suggests they couldn't run a bath, let alone a cross-borders rugby tournament. So that leaves the need for some other organiser to emerge, and the only one in sight is the combination of PRL and LNR, or whatever their initials are.
Ideally ERC should run the whole thing, but TBH their present record suggests they couldn't run a bath, let alone a cross-borders rugby tournament. So that leaves the need for some other organiser to emerge, and the only one in sight is the combination of PRL and LNR, or whatever their initials are.
Dave - a few points in answer to your post.
The first is that we are definitely going to have two competitions if the remaining Celts and Italians don't join the French Welsh and English. The Heineken Cup as was, is over and done. It is as dead as Monty Python's parrot - and no pretending that it is still squawking and flapping is going to resurrect it.
Secondly - I don't actually agree that the TV audiences will fall dramatically - especially when you have a competition in which the English and French are still competing. They will hold up pretty well, I think.
IMHO even if we have a season or two when European competition is split - the remaining nations will have to join the new Champions cup in the end - because they wont have much choice. Your Domesday scenario of semi pro rugby with no funding in Ireland, Scotland and Italy is exactly why that will happen. There is zero possibility of that becoming a reality. Even the unions aren't that stupid or greedy.
Finally - yes - the clubs do want to. They've had enough of inept management and unfair funding and qualification. They tried to work through the existing structure - for some considerable time - and were met with intransigence, lack of business acumen and procrastination worthy of Hamlet. ERC and the Unions have had their chance. It is over.
The first is that we are definitely going to have two competitions if the remaining Celts and Italians don't join the French Welsh and English. The Heineken Cup as was, is over and done. It is as dead as Monty Python's parrot - and no pretending that it is still squawking and flapping is going to resurrect it.
Secondly - I don't actually agree that the TV audiences will fall dramatically - especially when you have a competition in which the English and French are still competing. They will hold up pretty well, I think.
IMHO even if we have a season or two when European competition is split - the remaining nations will have to join the new Champions cup in the end - because they wont have much choice. Your Domesday scenario of semi pro rugby with no funding in Ireland, Scotland and Italy is exactly why that will happen. There is zero possibility of that becoming a reality. Even the unions aren't that stupid or greedy.
Finally - yes - the clubs do want to. They've had enough of inept management and unfair funding and qualification. They tried to work through the existing structure - for some considerable time - and were met with intransigence, lack of business acumen and procrastination worthy of Hamlet. ERC and the Unions have had their chance. It is over.
noted that there was an article in the Times about the French Union putting some considerable pressure on the French clubs to walk away from the English clubs
they believe they have some bargaining chips (not actually stated what they were) which would change the opinion in France
they believe they have some bargaining chips (not actually stated what they were) which would change the opinion in France
The French Fed have been saying all along the RCC is illegal for French Clubs without their permission and Camou has now alledgedly offered each club 2m Euro to stay in and has threatened to centrally contract players to form HC teams if necessary. He alledgedly has the support of Toulon (who don't like the new foriegn player rules) and Biarritz
I don't see how Camou can overturn the foreign player rule, but even if he could he would be damning French international rugby to oblivion. It's a strange alliance as surely the foreign player rule is very much in FFR's interest. Basically it has nothing to do with European competition and Boudjellal is just behaving like a spoilt child.
If I were LNR I'd be demanding why, if the FFR has that much spare cash sloshing around, why we haven't seen it earlier? And what are they going to do with it if we go ahead with the RCC? And yes, once the RCC is up and running, of course you can have our players for the 6N and the World Cup, that'll be 28 million euros please.
If I were LNR I'd be demanding why, if the FFR has that much spare cash sloshing around, why we haven't seen it earlier? And what are they going to do with it if we go ahead with the RCC? And yes, once the RCC is up and running, of course you can have our players for the 6N and the World Cup, that'll be 28 million euros please.
Barnet Sarrie, I do think that the idea that an Anglo French tournament without the other nations is remarkable arrogant it that's the view of the clubs, who on earth is going to pay to see Worcester or Newcastle or any of the clubs in the bottom half of the table have 60 or 70 points run u, p against them week in week out, the salary cap makes it totally lopsided, great for the handful of clubs at the top, waste of time for the rest, what would be wrong with a settlement whereby the clubs shared out 55% or the shares between them giving them control whilst the Unions retained a 45% interest, whilst leaving the clubs to manage it, is that not the eminently sensible compromise to keep it all together.
And I disagree its over a deal will get done. Its over is the negotiating position, the clubs have won, now they need and will concede a bit to hold it all together, not in its existing format, but there will be a Pan European competition next season involving all the big six nations even if its not called the Heineken Cup
And I disagree its over a deal will get done. Its over is the negotiating position, the clubs have won, now they need and will concede a bit to hold it all together, not in its existing format, but there will be a Pan European competition next season involving all the big six nations even if its not called the Heineken Cup
Referring to primavesi's comments on the FA cup first that is a distinctly 2nd class competition and has been for many years now. It is for the biggest clubs, equivalent to the LV cup it unfortunately nowadays gets in the way of the league, the money earner. EUFA listen very carefully to the elite group of European clubs who every 3 or 4 years chunter on about running football themselves.
Make no mistake the big clubs are the power behind EUFA's little throne!
Make no mistake the big clubs are the power behind EUFA's little throne!
WD - the French and English don't want a tournament without the other clubs - they are not being arrogant. In fact they have been anything but. They were patient - for a very long time, and their perfectly legitimate concerns were ignored.
They have been forced to take action - but now that they have, they are quite rightly sticking to their guns. I am sure there will be a compromise - there obviously has to be - but the point I am making is that I do NOT believe it will be over control. That is now the fundamental issue at the heart of this whole matter. It has become increasingly obvious through the development of this whole situation that this has become the key issue. It wasn't to start with - but the inadequacy of management from ERC has made it so. The rest of the problems - qualification, money split, even TV rights and sponsors are already in the process of being agreed - compromise has been announced even without the involvement of the English and French contingent - As for the Heineken cup in its existing format. Dead parrot. Finito.
They have been forced to take action - but now that they have, they are quite rightly sticking to their guns. I am sure there will be a compromise - there obviously has to be - but the point I am making is that I do NOT believe it will be over control. That is now the fundamental issue at the heart of this whole matter. It has become increasingly obvious through the development of this whole situation that this has become the key issue. It wasn't to start with - but the inadequacy of management from ERC has made it so. The rest of the problems - qualification, money split, even TV rights and sponsors are already in the process of being agreed - compromise has been announced even without the involvement of the English and French contingent - As for the Heineken cup in its existing format. Dead parrot. Finito.
Quote:primavesiQuote:BarnetSarrie
The clubs should control club competitions -
Why?
The FA controls the FA cup, Uefa controls the Champions leagues etc. Why should this be different?
Clearly the current format needed changing, and it sound like most parties now accept that, but the central point of clubs controlling the tournament, I have yet to hear a good argument for why that will be better for European rugby.
And the clubs control the Premier League, the football league and the league cup.
The Unions main concern, and rightly so, will always be the international game. The clubs will always be second fiddle to them. That is not a good place to negotiate deals from, see the way the treat the Championship, only recently getting a sponsor for instance.
Quote:Shhh!
... And what are they going to do with it if we go ahead with the RCC? And yes, once the RCC is up and running, of course you can have our players for the 6N and the World Cup, that'll be 28 million euros please.
That'll be a problematic threat to make.
The IRB requires player release during the international windows. They have, in the past, instructed National Unions to heavily penalise any club that makes this threat. The clubs have always capitulated on the basis that, once their employer is expelled, players will leave, fearing that their international career is over. [This may not worry Toulon, who could field a team of past internationals, and often do!]
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Quote:Convex Hull
...and the fact that every business decision is predicated on what is best for the respective unions, not the clubs.
But, apart from that, no good reason for having a club competition run by clubs.
I think that is the crux of the matter. Either you want decisions to be made in the best interest of the clubs and their owners, or in the best interest of the unions, in otherwords, our national teams.
I guess that will split people down the middle. In Ireland and Wales, you get the feeling the regions are more concerned about the success of the national team than the clubs in England. Personally, i think the self interest of the clubs will be to the detriment of the England team, which for me is more important than anything else.
Quote:primavesiQuote:Convex Hull
...and the fact that every business decision is predicated on what is best for the respective unions, not the clubs.
But, apart from that, no good reason for having a club competition run by clubs.
I think that is the crux of the matter. Either you want decisions to be made in the best interest of the clubs and their owners, or in the best interest of the unions, in otherwords, our national teams.
I guess that will split people down the middle. In Ireland and Wales, you get the feeling the regions are more concerned about the success of the national team than the clubs in England. Personally, i think the self interest of the clubs will be to the detriment of the England team, which for me is more important than anything else.
In Ireland and Scotland, the Provinces and Districts are funded by the Union, so there's no meaningful independence of thought. In Wales, the regions are theoretically independent, but largely dependent on the Union to survive, so they don't have much choice, though they perpetually sabre-rattle.
The EPS agreement would survive the arrival of an RCC, so the fortunes of the England National team do not appear to be under threat, in the short term. God only knows how the renegotiation of that will go - I accept that if the clubs achieve greater financial independence for the RCC and BT deal, they will be in a stronger negotiating position than otherwise.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Strong clubs mean a stronger pool of talent, playing at a higher level to give England greater choice. The clubs bring the talent through. You cannot have a strong England without strong clubs. Neither should you have the clubs being disadvantaged by providing talent to England. It should be advantageous to BOTH parties - as well as an obvious honour for the players.
As far as I am concerned neither is more important than the other. The irony is that in England, the Union has finally started to work with the clubs - and that's how it should be. Both have a role to play. For my money, the RFU still has a way to go to make that situation a reality, but at least they have understood the English Club's position, listened and tried to be as supportive as they can. It's obviously because they value the status quo and the agreement that was made over player release. I've been very pleasantly surprised by their stance - as I'm sure the clubs have been.
As far as I am concerned neither is more important than the other. The irony is that in England, the Union has finally started to work with the clubs - and that's how it should be. Both have a role to play. For my money, the RFU still has a way to go to make that situation a reality, but at least they have understood the English Club's position, listened and tried to be as supportive as they can. It's obviously because they value the status quo and the agreement that was made over player release. I've been very pleasantly surprised by their stance - as I'm sure the clubs have been.
And is that to do with a breath of fresh air wafting in from the direction of Wimbledon? I have no direct knowledge, of course, but have been very impressed by the public stances taken by Ian Ritchie on a number of issues, and by his evening at Snorbens last season
Quote:BarnetSarrie
Alan E - Its because he's from Leeds of course ......
That must be it. Difficult to believe but having seen a picture of Sachin in a flat 'at this morning from when he played for God's Own County, anything's possible
Jesus Barnet Sarrie, I have never tried to suggest that the HC in its current format is as dead as a dodo, buried in ten tons of concrete, the debate now hinges on what replaces it, the Celtic Unions and The Italians have now all agreed that bit.
And there is little doubt that the clubs will have control of the new structure, all I am saying, and this I firmly predict will happen, is that the new completion will be co owned by the clubs and the unions, with the clubs owning a majority share, but with the unions holding a substantial minority stake.
If the clubs do anything to damage the prospects of the international game and England, which I competition that only involved the French and English would, then people who support rugby from the armchair will desert in droves.
Come to the Saracens head in Worcester on Saturday afternoon, it will be rammed to the seams and its a big boozer, a couple of weeks back I went down to watch Gloucester and Munster, for something to do, guess how many of us were watching it 6, we struggled to persuade the landlord to put it on just one of his screens.
Clearly from what Edward G has said on these forums before Edward G, knows that you fall out with the armchair fan at your peril, know he and his fellow club owners have won control,, I don't believe a single one of them will not compromise with a settlement, that keeps International Rugby as the prime concern of the game, appeasing the
blood lust of a few diehards posting on a message board by forcing a split that bankrupts the Celtic unions and forces them back into playing amateur rugby at international level, would destroy the TV audience for the club game, and all I a saying and I stick by it that the club owners know that EG, knows that, and they are not going to let it happen. There is agreement now on the important part which is what the new cup is going to look like, and who is going to control it.
The debate now shifts to what its called, and how much of a minority shareholding the Unions retain in it.
And there is little doubt that the clubs will have control of the new structure, all I am saying, and this I firmly predict will happen, is that the new completion will be co owned by the clubs and the unions, with the clubs owning a majority share, but with the unions holding a substantial minority stake.
If the clubs do anything to damage the prospects of the international game and England, which I competition that only involved the French and English would, then people who support rugby from the armchair will desert in droves.
Come to the Saracens head in Worcester on Saturday afternoon, it will be rammed to the seams and its a big boozer, a couple of weeks back I went down to watch Gloucester and Munster, for something to do, guess how many of us were watching it 6, we struggled to persuade the landlord to put it on just one of his screens.
Clearly from what Edward G has said on these forums before Edward G, knows that you fall out with the armchair fan at your peril, know he and his fellow club owners have won control,, I don't believe a single one of them will not compromise with a settlement, that keeps International Rugby as the prime concern of the game, appeasing the
blood lust of a few diehards posting on a message board by forcing a split that bankrupts the Celtic unions and forces them back into playing amateur rugby at international level, would destroy the TV audience for the club game, and all I a saying and I stick by it that the club owners know that EG, knows that, and they are not going to let it happen. There is agreement now on the important part which is what the new cup is going to look like, and who is going to control it.
The debate now shifts to what its called, and how much of a minority shareholding the Unions retain in it.
[quote WoodfordDave] Clearly from what Edward G has said on these forums before Edward G, knows that you fall out with the armchair fan at your peril, quote]
Ah, so now we know who will control European club rugby - it will be Woodford Dave.
We can all sleep easy about the future of the game now! ;-)
Ah, so now we know who will control European club rugby - it will be Woodford Dave.
We can all sleep easy about the future of the game now! ;-)
Surely the big issue now is how you resolve the problem of having sold the same product to two competing TV broadcast companies. If they are both legally binding contracts then there may be a problem. It would seem that the clubs are firmly bound to the new higher value contract with BT Sport. Therefore I believe ERC will have to be dissolved so that the Sky contract can become frustrated. I guess we may be looking at a new ERC type organisation with the new club / union shareholder split as suggested by WD.
With Sky taking a real pounding from BT at the moment they may well fight this one in the court room.
Chops
With Sky taking a real pounding from BT at the moment they may well fight this one in the court room.
Chops
ERC have sold rights to a product they don't have. THe notice of intent to leave was handed in well before the new SKY deal was negotiated, so if ERC have sold the HC in it's current format to SKY, I can see it costing them a lot of money.
As always Innings. so where to the lawyers from all sides go, start firing injunctions at each other so that there is no European rugby and no income at all whilst it drags out in court, or do they bang heads together and negotiate a compromise is the best interests of all parties, including the competing TV companies, who may have to agree to share the rights if thy want any European Rugby at all, pragmatism will I hope win.
If we assume that the parties' advisers at least aren't idiots, even if ERC, Sky et al are, then the agreements will be conditional on there being a product to sell/broadcast. Isn't it reported that the BT deal pays very little if it is just an Anglo-French competition, so that the pressure is very much on to get everybody on board?
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
The BT sport deal. is confidential, they wont show it to the other Unions involved, that's part of the row, is safe to guess that the reason for their reticence is that it pays a ^ Nation competition millions of pounds and an Anglo French competition at tuppence, the celts probably guess that too, which is part of the reason they have been playing hard ball.
An Anglo French tournament would be so one sided it would make the Rabo League and LV Cup look interesting, and draw less punters to the TV screens that either of those stupid boring competitions.
The advantage to the Rabo League of all his is that under the new structure their league will stop being a series of pointless exhibitions matches and actually
become competitive sport, with the losers getting "shot" at the end of the season, to use Nigel's favourite phrase.
An Anglo French tournament would be so one sided it would make the Rabo League and LV Cup look interesting, and draw less punters to the TV screens that either of those stupid boring competitions.
The advantage to the Rabo League of all his is that under the new structure their league will stop being a series of pointless exhibitions matches and actually
become competitive sport, with the losers getting "shot" at the end of the season, to use Nigel's favourite phrase.
Couple of points from the other side of the pond. As a leinster and general rugby fan I want to see the HC continue as it has provided great rugby over the years and has grown to a point that some of the unions worry it might overtake the international game.
The appears to be a point lost by the prl and lnr side of the debate. All the other teams in the HC are union controlled as is the situation in every other major rugby country around the world. So the welsh can claim they are in but they have no power to join.
Under french law the FFR controls the game. Each player has a passport type document that they need to be able to play. The FFR have said that the only cross border competition french teams can play in is the HC.
This new competition has no sponsor, no IRB sanction, no sanction from any of the unions and no refs or officials.
The only thing it has is a tv deal the details of which are shrouded in mystery. How could they expect anyone to sign up to a deal with no view of the details. The BT deal is seen as a bit of a joke as one of the points believed to be in it is a shareholding for BT in the new competition which will never happen.
The current view here is that a deal will be done along the lines of the declaration from the last erc meeting and some concession will be made to allow the fools running the prl top save some face and claim a victory of some sort.
The appears to be a point lost by the prl and lnr side of the debate. All the other teams in the HC are union controlled as is the situation in every other major rugby country around the world. So the welsh can claim they are in but they have no power to join.
Under french law the FFR controls the game. Each player has a passport type document that they need to be able to play. The FFR have said that the only cross border competition french teams can play in is the HC.
This new competition has no sponsor, no IRB sanction, no sanction from any of the unions and no refs or officials.
The only thing it has is a tv deal the details of which are shrouded in mystery. How could they expect anyone to sign up to a deal with no view of the details. The BT deal is seen as a bit of a joke as one of the points believed to be in it is a shareholding for BT in the new competition which will never happen.
The current view here is that a deal will be done along the lines of the declaration from the last erc meeting and some concession will be made to allow the fools running the prl top save some face and claim a victory of some sort.
The Fools at the PRL have already won the following concessions;
1) reduction to 20 teams
2) equal team representation from each league
3) qualification based on merit rather than geography
4) equal split of revenues between leagues
If there is to be a deal (which it looks like there ultimately will be based on the speed that the ERC and unions are back pedalling) then some further concessions are likely to be added to this list. If this is saving face and being able to claim some sort of hollow victory for PRL, then I really am not sure what up-side the ERC and its union owners are going to be able to claim they have won.
At the moment it is PRL Fools 4, ERC Muppets 0 and the score is likely to be even more one sided when the compromise is finally thrashed out.
I hope there is a deal done as I do want an inclusive 6 nation European competition, but I think there is only one side of the table that is looking extremely foolish at the moment!
1) reduction to 20 teams
2) equal team representation from each league
3) qualification based on merit rather than geography
4) equal split of revenues between leagues
If there is to be a deal (which it looks like there ultimately will be based on the speed that the ERC and unions are back pedalling) then some further concessions are likely to be added to this list. If this is saving face and being able to claim some sort of hollow victory for PRL, then I really am not sure what up-side the ERC and its union owners are going to be able to claim they have won.
At the moment it is PRL Fools 4, ERC Muppets 0 and the score is likely to be even more one sided when the compromise is finally thrashed out.
I hope there is a deal done as I do want an inclusive 6 nation European competition, but I think there is only one side of the table that is looking extremely foolish at the moment!
The FFR control the game. They can't even ensure that a minimum quota of French players play for the clubs in the French league.
With the clubs likely to withhold their players and a RWC on the horizon, make no mistake about who controls the game in France.
The Heineken Cup is dead. There will be a new competition next season, broadcast by BT Sport. Who is included in that is entirely up to which Unions end up backing it and the death of the ERC.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:15:17:14:31 by ChrisR.
With the clubs likely to withhold their players and a RWC on the horizon, make no mistake about who controls the game in France.
The Heineken Cup is dead. There will be a new competition next season, broadcast by BT Sport. Who is included in that is entirely up to which Unions end up backing it and the death of the ERC.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:15:17:14:31 by ChrisR.
Their fools are definitely bigger. They are the most foolish fools that ever gambolled with a jingling hat and a bladder on a stick. Our fools are mere tellers of knock-knock jokes by comparison.
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
My responses to your points in Italics, Fireworks.
Couple of points from the other side of the pond. As a leinster and general rugby fan I want to see the HC continue as it has provided great rugby over the years and has grown to a point that some of the unions worry it might overtake the international game.
Sorry Fireworks - in case you missed it - throughout the thread - the Heineken cup is already dead. We are seeing its final matches. It will not be played next year.
The appears to be a point lost by the prl and lnr side of the debate. All the other teams in the HC are union controlled as is the situation in every other major rugby country around the world. So the welsh can claim they are in but they have no power to join. Under french law the FFR controls the game. Each player has a passport type document that they need to be able to play. The FFR have said that the only cross border competition french teams can play in is the HC.
The PRL and LNR are well aware of union control. Indeed, the LNR is supposedly also Union controlled - but theory and fact are often quite complicated. The FFR will have to back down - or they will have nothing TO control. As with everything - they can only govern by common consent. The French clubs are effectively even stronger than their English counterparts - and their tolerance has been stretched to the limit. The Welsh are already on board - they have to be - or they will lose their real currency - their players. And everyone from the Union, to the Clubs and the individuals concerned - knows it. Furthermore - under the new scheme they would get more 'big audience' fixtures - playing their English counterparts and will do better financially than they currently do.
This new competition has no sponsor, no IRB sanction, no sanction from any of the unions and no refs or officials.
I have a feeling that Heineken may be lined up to sponsor the new competition - but we are already being told that there are numerous other big names waiting in the wings, our own sponsor, Allianz included, so I don't think that will be a problem. As for Refs and officials - the Unions are hardly on good terms with their own Referees at the moment - they are on pretty shaky ground if they start to use that stick.
The only thing it has is a tv deal the details of which are shrouded in mystery. How could they expect anyone to sign up to a deal with no view of the details. The BT deal is seen as a bit of a joke as one of the points believed to be in it is a shareholding for BT in the new competition which will never happen.
The current view here is that a deal will be done along the lines of the declaration from the last erc meeting and some concession will be made to allow the fools running the prl top save some face and claim a victory of some sort.
This last point has been dealt with by everyone else. None of the concessions would have happened without hardball being played by the French and English. But it isn't enough any more. 'The Fools' as you call them - have had quite enough of being played for Fools. They aren't about to go back to the old status quo again. They really would be fools if they did so! The only thing I would add is that it is no great surprise that the BT deal is being kept quiet as it isn't finalised yet. All business deals are mysterious until they are signed, sealed and delivered. But Sky are certainly pretty worried about it - and I think you are very mistaken if you think that the new competition wont happen. I am totally convinced that it will - even if it only has English French and Welsh teams participating at the outset. I have never seen the clubs so bullish or determined. There will still be some tasty encounters with decent viewing figures and crowds. It will be a shame - but I am also sure that in the end the Irish, Italians and Scots will take part. And perhaps we will see even more club teams from both emerging and established rugby nations joining the present incumbents!
Couple of points from the other side of the pond. As a leinster and general rugby fan I want to see the HC continue as it has provided great rugby over the years and has grown to a point that some of the unions worry it might overtake the international game.
Sorry Fireworks - in case you missed it - throughout the thread - the Heineken cup is already dead. We are seeing its final matches. It will not be played next year.
The appears to be a point lost by the prl and lnr side of the debate. All the other teams in the HC are union controlled as is the situation in every other major rugby country around the world. So the welsh can claim they are in but they have no power to join. Under french law the FFR controls the game. Each player has a passport type document that they need to be able to play. The FFR have said that the only cross border competition french teams can play in is the HC.
The PRL and LNR are well aware of union control. Indeed, the LNR is supposedly also Union controlled - but theory and fact are often quite complicated. The FFR will have to back down - or they will have nothing TO control. As with everything - they can only govern by common consent. The French clubs are effectively even stronger than their English counterparts - and their tolerance has been stretched to the limit. The Welsh are already on board - they have to be - or they will lose their real currency - their players. And everyone from the Union, to the Clubs and the individuals concerned - knows it. Furthermore - under the new scheme they would get more 'big audience' fixtures - playing their English counterparts and will do better financially than they currently do.
This new competition has no sponsor, no IRB sanction, no sanction from any of the unions and no refs or officials.
I have a feeling that Heineken may be lined up to sponsor the new competition - but we are already being told that there are numerous other big names waiting in the wings, our own sponsor, Allianz included, so I don't think that will be a problem. As for Refs and officials - the Unions are hardly on good terms with their own Referees at the moment - they are on pretty shaky ground if they start to use that stick.
The only thing it has is a tv deal the details of which are shrouded in mystery. How could they expect anyone to sign up to a deal with no view of the details. The BT deal is seen as a bit of a joke as one of the points believed to be in it is a shareholding for BT in the new competition which will never happen.
The current view here is that a deal will be done along the lines of the declaration from the last erc meeting and some concession will be made to allow the fools running the prl top save some face and claim a victory of some sort.
This last point has been dealt with by everyone else. None of the concessions would have happened without hardball being played by the French and English. But it isn't enough any more. 'The Fools' as you call them - have had quite enough of being played for Fools. They aren't about to go back to the old status quo again. They really would be fools if they did so! The only thing I would add is that it is no great surprise that the BT deal is being kept quiet as it isn't finalised yet. All business deals are mysterious until they are signed, sealed and delivered. But Sky are certainly pretty worried about it - and I think you are very mistaken if you think that the new competition wont happen. I am totally convinced that it will - even if it only has English French and Welsh teams participating at the outset. I have never seen the clubs so bullish or determined. There will still be some tasty encounters with decent viewing figures and crowds. It will be a shame - but I am also sure that in the end the Irish, Italians and Scots will take part. And perhaps we will see even more club teams from both emerging and established rugby nations joining the present incumbents!
The Heineken Cup may be as dead as a dodo but the ostrich is thriving in Ireland
Of course it is. Having the ERC based in Dublin has lead to all sorts of factors in the (Southern) Irish provinces' favour over the years. Favourable refereeing appointments (and performances), and advantageous disciplinary decisions versus the other nations, to name but two.
The thought of a level playing field that they cannot control must terrify them.
The thought of a level playing field that they cannot control must terrify them.
how the f do i get rid of the gillette advert? it is in the way of the messages and the 'close' button does not work!
Barnet Sarrie, you are trying to cast the English and French clubs in the roll of @#$%& storm troopers, intent on executing all the stakeholders, who want any say at all, no prisoner's or war here, the gas chamber for the Irish, will bring em to their senses.
In fact more ;like lets execute the current owners of the clubs in Ireland the IRFU and force the someone else to buy them, IRFU money gone no teams anymore , to even play in the competition, you talk of maybe having to go Anglo French for a season or two, NO ONES GOING TO WATCH IT, it would be an economic.; Game bankrupt disaster for the French and English clubs, who would end up begging the Celts back in, though o
f course there wouldn't be any national teams anymore from those nations, Six Nations cancelled, World Cup cancelled, Allianz Park back to being an athletic track. Game bankrupt
Will that happen of course not, becaucuse the clun owners in England and france are too commercially astute to let that happen, and will hammer out an arrangement that gives the Unions a stake but no control, and the game will florish and grow as a family of six nations, to which many others will be invited to join, initially in the second and third tier.
And best of all the end of ring fencing in the Rabo, every match will count as it does in already in England and France where the winners take the silverware and the losers don't have a job next season.
In fact more ;like lets execute the current owners of the clubs in Ireland the IRFU and force the someone else to buy them, IRFU money gone no teams anymore , to even play in the competition, you talk of maybe having to go Anglo French for a season or two, NO ONES GOING TO WATCH IT, it would be an economic.; Game bankrupt disaster for the French and English clubs, who would end up begging the Celts back in, though o
f course there wouldn't be any national teams anymore from those nations, Six Nations cancelled, World Cup cancelled, Allianz Park back to being an athletic track. Game bankrupt
Will that happen of course not, becaucuse the clun owners in England and france are too commercially astute to let that happen, and will hammer out an arrangement that gives the Unions a stake but no control, and the game will florish and grow as a family of six nations, to which many others will be invited to join, initially in the second and third tier.
And best of all the end of ring fencing in the Rabo, every match will count as it does in already in England and France where the winners take the silverware and the losers don't have a job next season.
If we knew how many people make a living, and at what level, out of their employment by ERC, we'd know more about why they think ERC is the only way forward.
WD - what on earth are you talking about? Execution? Storm Troopers? The end of the Six Nations and the world cup!? Have you lost it entirely? -I was talking about rugby union and the fact that the English and French are very likely to go ahead, with or without the sanction of the unions. And that for a season or two we may all have to cope with clubs from three nations playing, rather than six. It wont be the same - but there is nonetheless still always a buzz when clubs from those three countries play - and despite what you say - people will ALWAYS watch. But please keep it in perspective. It's a GAME! Important to all of us - but let's keep this in proportion! I don't appreciate you using @#$%& analogies very much ... especially when you imply that somehow I have.
Apparently the word N-zi is not allowed -but that was what was in my post - in case anyone thinks I swore - which I don't.
Couldn't blame you if you had, BS. I couldn't %&*@*! understand a %&*@*! word of WD's post myself.
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
BS - don't bother you'll just get frustrated with his obtuse references - gas chamber for the Irish - seriously!! I had hoped he'd improved now his life is better but it's obviously just the way he is. He does make the occasional good point if you can pick it out from the general diatribe.
Quote:tpr's headmistress
BS - don't bother you'll just get frustrated with his obtuse references - gas chamber for the Irish - seriously!! I had hoped he'd improved now his life is better but it's obviously just the way he is. He does make the occasional good point if you can pick it out from the general diatribe.
If everyone follows your good husband's example he'll just crawl back under his rock.
True - he gets very cross with me. Generally when I moan about someone who's irritating he shrugs his shoulders and tells me not to get so involved. I guess he's seen/heard worse when dealing with 14/15 year old lads/ladettes.
Simply that you advocate destroying the sport , by not allowing the Celts any democratic say whatsoever in the future of the game 100% of the decision making to be in the hands of the English and French Premiership club owners forget the rest forget the4 junior clubs who rely on the Six Nations for funding, who supply you with the junior players, either you give us total control, we want ALL the money and we want not a sixty forty split in our favour all of it, not a sixty forty split on the board or directors who make the decisions, the Unions get no money no seat on the board, and if you don't accept that we will destroy the game by playing an Anglo French Cup that no one want's to watch that's dictatorship not democracy, a willingness to commit suicide just because you despise the enemy and want them dead, buried and finished, I say it again the club owners are to commercially astute to let that happen how3wever much Barnet Sarrie wants it, there will be a competition next season involving all the stake holders not just the English and French club owners, and the game will flourish, what Barnet advocates isn't going to happen, a deal will get done, end of
Is anyone else being reminded of the trainline adverts where the whole carriage goes into mad panic?
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
The revenues of the RFU dwarf those of all the AP clubs combined. Those revenues are almost entirely dependent on clubs like Saints, Sarries and Leicester. There is no democracy at present, the clubs are being hampered in their attempts to become self sufficient by unions who put their own interests first.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Hang on Convex, democracy is about one mam/woman one vote, which in the case of rugby means one club one vote whether you are Saints or Malvern. Its one game played to the same rules by everyone from the All Blacks to Malvern extra C's
Actually, Wd, the word democracy means no such thing. The rule of the people by the people never actually included consulting the majority of the population in Ancient Greece, where the term was coined.
So much ignorance on this board.
ERC awful, tell me why? no one on this board has any knowledge of their work. An easy target for ignorant people. Governance is a big issue for any future competition, that governance being in McCafferty's front room is unlikely to be acceptable. As and when the RCC people come up with their governance proposals then the RCC can be taken seriously. Incidentally the ERC is based in Dublin for tax reasons.
Wales regions will join the RCC, how? does anyone on this board know the workings of the WRU and the RRW. Of course not, these are just repetitions of the Public Relations dept of the PRL i.e. the English media.
That BT hold the ace cards in the battle for TV rights? Has anyone on this board seen the rival TV contracts? Of course not, again part of the PRL PR. Interestingly, when the 2 companies were fighting for soccer Premiership games, initially, BT had the highest bids but the Premiership felt loyalty to Sky and gave them the opportunity to respond. Doesn't rugby owe some kind of loyalty to Sky?
The future of European club competitions will be decided eventually at Union, yes Union, level. The internal wranglings of the RFU over many years created a vacuum in English rugby which the PRL were quick to fill. I suspect the RFU under new management are quietly fighting back. The equivalent French union are certainly showing who are the bosses.
I have no idea whether the Heineken is dead or if the RCC is alive, neither does anybody on this board. I suspect a compromise is highly likely making the PRL's decision to boycott the mediation bonkers. Note, Peter Wheeler was the PRL rep on the ERC board, interesting how quiet he has been during all this nonsense, maybe he is sceptical of PRL's stance.
ERC awful, tell me why? no one on this board has any knowledge of their work. An easy target for ignorant people. Governance is a big issue for any future competition, that governance being in McCafferty's front room is unlikely to be acceptable. As and when the RCC people come up with their governance proposals then the RCC can be taken seriously. Incidentally the ERC is based in Dublin for tax reasons.
Wales regions will join the RCC, how? does anyone on this board know the workings of the WRU and the RRW. Of course not, these are just repetitions of the Public Relations dept of the PRL i.e. the English media.
That BT hold the ace cards in the battle for TV rights? Has anyone on this board seen the rival TV contracts? Of course not, again part of the PRL PR. Interestingly, when the 2 companies were fighting for soccer Premiership games, initially, BT had the highest bids but the Premiership felt loyalty to Sky and gave them the opportunity to respond. Doesn't rugby owe some kind of loyalty to Sky?
The future of European club competitions will be decided eventually at Union, yes Union, level. The internal wranglings of the RFU over many years created a vacuum in English rugby which the PRL were quick to fill. I suspect the RFU under new management are quietly fighting back. The equivalent French union are certainly showing who are the bosses.
I have no idea whether the Heineken is dead or if the RCC is alive, neither does anybody on this board. I suspect a compromise is highly likely making the PRL's decision to boycott the mediation bonkers. Note, Peter Wheeler was the PRL rep on the ERC board, interesting how quiet he has been during all this nonsense, maybe he is sceptical of PRL's stance.
He is, almost certainly, quiet because the lawyers have to him that he runs the risk of someone accusing him of having conflicted interests if he opines on the subject. Hardly unusual, it happens every day.
Loyalty to SKY?
Much like internationals, the European competition depends on the availability of club players to operate. The Unions cannot compel the English and French clubs to play in a tournament, and there is absolutely no incentive for them to do so, when, in the case of the Amlin Cup, there is a net cost for them to compete.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Loyalty to SKY?
Much like internationals, the European competition depends on the availability of club players to operate. The Unions cannot compel the English and French clubs to play in a tournament, and there is absolutely no incentive for them to do so, when, in the case of the Amlin Cup, there is a net cost for them to compete.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
There's no point in responding to Eif, the Woodford Dave of the Saints board. They are both the same: spout a load of claptrap and then don't bother to come back and defend it.
these are just repetitions of the Public Relations dept of the PRL i.e. the English media. - Is this a joke??? The papers/TV being on the side of PRL? In the words of Mr Mackenroe - 'You cannot be serious!!'
Doesn't rugby owe some kind of loyalty to Sky? Now I KNOW this is a joke!!!!!!!
And I love the way he accuses us of ignorance!!!! How does he know who knows what on this or any other board? Whether we are able or willing to comment publicly about it, is a different matter -
The only point on which I agree is the final paragraph when sensible talk of compromise is suggested. That's because we can already see this happening from the pronouncements a fortnight ago. It is also because we are more fortunate than most in England, as the RFU is keen to preserve the hard fought balance it secured through the EPS agreements. It will certainly happen - because ultimately both clubs and unions both want to see rugby flourish across Europe and both sides recognise the appeal of a cross border competition - with a probable view to expanding it. The question is obviously on what basis that happens - and the clubs have now realised after painful experience - that working through the existing structure will not allow them sufficient control - or even influence. They tried that route and it failed spectacularly. Whatever agreement finally emerges from this - the clubs will expect far more control. I honestly believe this is the root question in this argument now , and certainly the most difficult to solve - not financial split, qualification or broadcast issues.
Doesn't rugby owe some kind of loyalty to Sky? Now I KNOW this is a joke!!!!!!!
And I love the way he accuses us of ignorance!!!! How does he know who knows what on this or any other board? Whether we are able or willing to comment publicly about it, is a different matter -
The only point on which I agree is the final paragraph when sensible talk of compromise is suggested. That's because we can already see this happening from the pronouncements a fortnight ago. It is also because we are more fortunate than most in England, as the RFU is keen to preserve the hard fought balance it secured through the EPS agreements. It will certainly happen - because ultimately both clubs and unions both want to see rugby flourish across Europe and both sides recognise the appeal of a cross border competition - with a probable view to expanding it. The question is obviously on what basis that happens - and the clubs have now realised after painful experience - that working through the existing structure will not allow them sufficient control - or even influence. They tried that route and it failed spectacularly. Whatever agreement finally emerges from this - the clubs will expect far more control. I honestly believe this is the root question in this argument now , and certainly the most difficult to solve - not financial split, qualification or broadcast issues.
I would happily watch an English French tournament, these 2 leagues are very strong and would provide a great level of games. Wales will have to come in anyway or lose more players, Scotland and Italy don't really matter as they rarely compete, so its just Ireland we would miss and they will have to come in line quickly or start suffering the level of Welsh loss of players.
that Barnet is what I have been saying all along a compromise will be struck and everyone will compete absolutely no doubt about it.
Maynas - isn't that just a teensy bit harsh on the Scots and Italians? I would miss them - and I would certainly miss the Trips to Parma, Verona and Venice!!! And anyway - they wont improve unless they have a measure of different opposition and different styles of rugby - not to mention the income from selling tickets for bigger games.
No - IMHO - the end result has to be a proper pan European competition, - an expanding one, rather than the old format - bringing in clubs from developing rugby nations as well as established ones. Where I disagree with some is that I don't believe that has to be simply the task of national unions - it should also be the responsibility of the clubs - you only have to look at what Saracens are doing, partnering new clubs all over the place and holding exhibition matches in Belgium to drum up interest and support local rugby development elsewhere to see that the clubs are willing to do that - and pretty good at it too!
Nor do I assume that the clubs will cow tow to the Unions in the immediate future - in England and France they get so little out of the HC anyway that they wont lose much financially by going it almost alone for the short term. We may well see a year or two of limited international competition. I don't think the threat of a three nation cup frightens them too much. But nor do I think that it is the preferred option - or that it will end up that way in a year or two's time.
No - IMHO - the end result has to be a proper pan European competition, - an expanding one, rather than the old format - bringing in clubs from developing rugby nations as well as established ones. Where I disagree with some is that I don't believe that has to be simply the task of national unions - it should also be the responsibility of the clubs - you only have to look at what Saracens are doing, partnering new clubs all over the place and holding exhibition matches in Belgium to drum up interest and support local rugby development elsewhere to see that the clubs are willing to do that - and pretty good at it too!
Nor do I assume that the clubs will cow tow to the Unions in the immediate future - in England and France they get so little out of the HC anyway that they wont lose much financially by going it almost alone for the short term. We may well see a year or two of limited international competition. I don't think the threat of a three nation cup frightens them too much. But nor do I think that it is the preferred option - or that it will end up that way in a year or two's time.
The Celts and Italians already have their competition; it's called the Rabo, and nobody has to take it seriously because as in all the best nursery tales, there are no losers. Would a private cup competition be any better?
Even if the resulting competition does have the level of meritocracy promised, it still won't make all of the Rabo matches competitive.
After 7 rounds, Connacht are already 14 points adrift of the third placed Irish team (Ulster) and Edinboro are 14 points adrift of Glasgow.
The guaranteeing of minimum representation from each country will mean that there will still be loads of meaningless ties in the Rabo.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:11:48:45 by TonyTaff.
After 7 rounds, Connacht are already 14 points adrift of the third placed Irish team (Ulster) and Edinboro are 14 points adrift of Glasgow.
The guaranteeing of minimum representation from each country will mean that there will still be loads of meaningless ties in the Rabo.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:11:48:45 by TonyTaff.
Has anyone got any idea what is going on? Scanning the threads around it would seem that the French Union is up to something.
As the threads on this topic posted around the websites usually degenerate into something that robs you of the will to live, I don't bother to read them any more.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
As the threads on this topic posted around the websites usually degenerate into something that robs you of the will to live, I don't bother to read them any more.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
It seems the FFR are trying to force the LNR to rejoin the ERC and the HC (So many acronyms)...
Camou's stance here:-
FFR lays down the law
Though Ian Ritchie is eager to restart negotiations due to the Celtic Nations stalling over governance and waiting to see what the TOP14 clubs do:-
Here
So if the TOP14 rebel against the FFR they will only be playing Top14 next year, with no Euro tournament. Or they could take the 2million euros and go back to the ERC, which would obviously leave the English clubs by themselves...
Camou's stance here:-
FFR lays down the law
Though Ian Ritchie is eager to restart negotiations due to the Celtic Nations stalling over governance and waiting to see what the TOP14 clubs do:-
Here
So if the TOP14 rebel against the FFR they will only be playing Top14 next year, with no Euro tournament. Or they could take the 2million euros and go back to the ERC, which would obviously leave the English clubs by themselves...
INteresting quote at the bottom:-
"This is a key moment," said one club official. "At the moment, it could go either way but the longer there is a delay, the greater the chance of the three Celtic unions and Italy suffering a big drop in revenue next season because there will be no Europe. That is why Ian Ritchie is desperately trying to get everyone around the table again talking about the big sticking point, governance.
"The reality is that 30 of the 38 teams who take part in the Heineken and Amlin Challenge cups have committed to the Rugby Champions Cup. No one is making any threats about breaking way or challenging the regulations of the International Rugby Board. It is just a case of the Rugby Champions Cup or nothing as far as European rugby is concerned."
Wonder who the 8 are?
"This is a key moment," said one club official. "At the moment, it could go either way but the longer there is a delay, the greater the chance of the three Celtic unions and Italy suffering a big drop in revenue next season because there will be no Europe. That is why Ian Ritchie is desperately trying to get everyone around the table again talking about the big sticking point, governance.
"The reality is that 30 of the 38 teams who take part in the Heineken and Amlin Challenge cups have committed to the Rugby Champions Cup. No one is making any threats about breaking way or challenging the regulations of the International Rugby Board. It is just a case of the Rugby Champions Cup or nothing as far as European rugby is concerned."
Wonder who the 8 are?
Saw this in the Guardian Ian Ritchie mediator
WHOOPS duplication.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:19:21:51:18 by tpr's headmistress.
WHOOPS duplication.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:19:21:51:18 by tpr's headmistress.
Thanks, I am sure that the PRL will have had a plan B all along.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:ChrisR
Wonder who the 8 are?
That'll be the Rabo less the Welsh (so Irish, Scots and Italiens), as they've already said they're looking to join the RCC.
Quote:RubzQuote:ChrisR
Wonder who the 8 are?
That'll be the Rabo less the Welsh (so Irish, Scots and Italiens), as they've already said they're looking to join the RCC.
You do know the Welsh are contracted to the Rabo until 2016 ?
Quote:CorkoQuote:RubzQuote:ChrisR
Wonder who the 8 are?
That'll be the Rabo less the Welsh (so Irish, Scots and Italiens), as they've already said they're looking to join the RCC.
You do know the Welsh are contracted to the Rabo until 2016 ?
I don't believe there's any suggestion they're going to leave the Rabo. They're looking to join the RCC in place of the Heineken Cup, alongside the Rabo.
A lot of crowing from the ERC lobby, but SKY are still going to face a situation where they won't be showing English teams in the market that matters the most to them. There won't be many people who will take a £20 per month subscription to watch Munster play Toulon.
I expect Plan B will appear soon, possibly with SA?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I expect Plan B will appear soon, possibly with SA?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:RubzQuote:CorkoQuote:RubzQuote:ChrisR
Wonder who the 8 are?
That'll be the Rabo less the Welsh (so Irish, Scots and Italiens), as they've already said they're looking to join the RCC.
You do know the Welsh are contracted to the Rabo until 2016 ?
I don't believe there's any suggestion they're going to leave the Rabo. They're looking to join the RCC in place of the Heineken Cup, alongside the Rabo.
There have been suggestions that they could join the AP.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Convex Hull
A lot of crowing from the ERC lobby, but SKY are still going to face a situation where they won't be showing English teams in the market that matters the most to them. There won't be many people who will take a £20 per month subscription to watch Munster play Toulon.
I expect Plan B will appear soon, possibly with SA?
Plan A and Plan B would require IRB approval, which clearly they are not going to get. No official status, no officials to ref it, there's no road to go down without breaking away from Rugby Union. Sky almost certainly will continue to with the current agreement, to do otherwise would hand it to BT. And as much as we would like to think Rugby Union is universally popular, the reality is that we are an add on to their main event of soccer.
More sensationalist reporting. ERC can't exclude the RFU from meetings: whether the English clubs are in or out the RFU still owns a large chunk of ERC.
Presumably the RFU chose to absent itself from the Dublin meeting in order to maintain its position as "honest broker" between the warring factions.
Presumably the RFU chose to absent itself from the Dublin meeting in order to maintain its position as "honest broker" between the warring factions.
Quote:Shhh!
More sensationalist reporting. ERC can't exclude the RFU from meetings: whether the English clubs are in or out the RFU still owns a large chunk of ERC.
Presumably the RFU chose to absent itself from the Dublin meeting in order to maintain its position as "honest broker" between the warring factions.
If that were even remotely true, I'm sure the RFU will be out this morning clearly up such a blatant mistruth.
The reality is that the RFU had abdicated their responsibility to the game by splintering their backside on the fence.
Quote:CorkoQuote:Shhh!
More sensationalist reporting. ERC can't exclude the RFU from meetings: whether the English clubs are in or out the RFU still owns a large chunk of ERC.
Presumably the RFU chose to absent itself from the Dublin meeting in order to maintain its position as "honest broker" between the warring factions.
If that were even remotely true, I'm sure the RFU will be out this morning clearly up such a blatant mistruth.
The reality is that the RFU had abdicated their responsibility to the game by splintering their backside on the fence.
Utter rubbish. That's your credibility blown (if you ever had any). Just another Irish ostrich.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:08:58:51 by Shhh!.
Quote:CorkoQuote:Convex Hull
A lot of crowing from the ERC lobby, but SKY are still going to face a situation where they won't be showing English teams in the market that matters the most to them. There won't be many people who will take a £20 per month subscription to watch Munster play Toulon.
I expect Plan B will appear soon, possibly with SA?
Plan A and Plan B would require IRB approval, which clearly they are not going to get. No official status, no officials to ref it, there's no road to go down without breaking away from Rugby Union. Sky almost certainly will continue to with the current agreement, to do otherwise would hand it to BT. And as much as we would like to think Rugby Union is universally popular, the reality is that we are an add on to their main event of soccer.
I think that you greatly underestimate the determination of English clubs to break away from the existing system.
SKY have already lost the battle against BT in the UK due to losing European soccer rights. The UK audience that they will get from a HEC competition without the English will be pitiful, they will lose their shirts.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Shhh!Quote:CorkoQuote:Shhh!
More sensationalist reporting. ERC can't exclude the RFU from meetings: whether the English clubs are in or out the RFU still owns a large chunk of ERC.
Presumably the RFU chose to absent itself from the Dublin meeting in order to maintain its position as "honest broker" between the warring factions.
If that were even remotely true, I'm sure the RFU will be out this morning clearly up such a blatant mistruth.
The reality is that the RFU had abdicated their responsibility to the game by splintering their backside on the fence.
Utter rubbish. That's your credibility blown (if you ever had any). Just another Irish ostrich.
You're the very one suggesting that the RFU are absenting itself, rather than not being invited ! I'll be waiting for that press release stating that fact then !!!
And lets be honest the Unions meeting in Dublin is no change to last time, it was just representatives of LNR and PRL that didn't go.
I will be cancelling my SKY subscription whether or not ERC run next year's European competition.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Corko
You're the very one suggesting that the RFU are absenting itself, rather than not being invited ! I'll be waiting for that press release stating that fact then !!!
Quote:tpr's headmistress
You really are wicked, Shhh!
It was kind of him to put a pic of himself !
Quote:BarnetSarrie
My responses to your points in Italics, Fireworks.
Couple of points from the other side of the pond. As a leinster and general rugby fan I want to see the HC continue as it has provided great rugby over the years and has grown to a point that some of the unions worry it might overtake the international game.
Sorry Fireworks - in case you missed it - throughout the thread - the Heineken cup is already dead. We are seeing its final matches. It will not be played next year.
Based on current reports the HC does not appear to be quiet as dead as you thought. Unfortunately it may continue without you. As a rugby fan I would like to see the prl teams involved but that is up to them now.
The appears to be a point lost by the prl and lnr side of the debate. All the other teams in the HC are union controlled as is the situation in every other major rugby country around the world. So the welsh can claim they are in but they have no power to join. Under french law the FFR controls the game. Each player has a passport type document that they need to be able to play. The FFR have said that the only cross border competition french teams can play in is the HC.
The PRL and LNR are well aware of union control. Indeed, the LNR is supposedly also Union controlled - but theory and fact are often quite complicated. The FFR will have to back down - or they will have nothing TO control. As with everything - they can only govern by common consent. The French clubs are effectively even stronger than their English counterparts - and their tolerance has been stretched to the limit. The Welsh are already on board - they have to be - or they will lose their real currency - their players. And everyone from the Union, to the Clubs and the individuals concerned - knows it. Furthermore - under the new scheme they would get more 'big audience' fixtures - playing their English counterparts and will do better financially than they currently do.
Well it appears that the FFR have found a pair. The LNR only run the top14 on licence from them and that licence was extended by a few months until 14 December but they have now been told no HC no agreemenmt. Without the sgreement done quickly they cannot negotiate their own tv deal and that is worth far more to them than BT or the PRL.
This new competition has no sponsor, no IRB sanction, no sanction from any of the unions and no refs or officials.
I have a feeling that Heineken may be lined up to sponsor the new competition - but we are already being told that there are numerous other big names waiting in the wings, our own sponsor, Allianz included, so I don't think that will be a problem. As for Refs and officials - the Unions are hardly on good terms with their own Referees at the moment - they are on pretty shaky ground if they start to use that stick.
Sponsorship does not work like that. They need at least a years lead in time so they can get the marketing benefit out of it. Also it has been widely reported that Heineken, Amlin and Fedex have signed up an extension with ERC. Whether the union are on good terms with officials or not they still control them. They could ref the matches without IRB say so but then it would not be rugby union.
The only thing it has is a tv deal the details of which are shrouded in mystery. How could they expect anyone to sign up to a deal with no view of the details. The BT deal is seen as a bit of a joke as one of the points believed to be in it is a shareholding for BT in the new competition which will never happen.
The current view here is that a deal will be done along the lines of the declaration from the last erc meeting and some concession will be made to allow the fools running the prl top save some face and claim a victory of some sort.
This last point has been dealt with by everyone else. None of the concessions would have happened without hardball being played by the French and English. But it isn't enough any more. 'The Fools' as you call them - have had quite enough of being played for Fools. They aren't about to go back to the old status quo again. They really would be fools if they did so! The only thing I would add is that it is no great surprise that the BT deal is being kept quiet as it isn't finalised yet. All business deals are mysterious until they are signed, sealed and delivered. But Sky are certainly pretty worried about it - and I think you are very mistaken if you think that the new competition wont happen. I am totally convinced that it will - even if it only has English French and Welsh teams participating at the outset. I have never seen the clubs so bullish or determined. There will still be some tasty encounters with decent viewing figures and crowds. It will be a shame - but I am also sure that in the end the Irish, Italians and Scots will take part. And perhaps we will see even more club teams from both emerging and established rugby nations joining the present incumbents!
Most of the concessions on qualification etc were outlined months ago. The recent ERC deceleration just hard wired them. It was already recognised that some change was needed but the method of negotiation is what most over here have a problem with. The welsh cannot survive without their union and if they join the prl the cease being welsh clubs.
As it stands we are facing a situation we do not want which is a HC with no english teams and with a stronger french presence. I enjoyed trips to games against some prl teams over the years and I hope the clubs can survive if they end up outside the ERC.
Quote:Fireworks
As it stands we are facing a situation we do not want which is a HC with no english teams and with a stronger french presence. I enjoyed trips to games against some prl teams over the years and I hope the clubs can survive if they end up outside the ERC.[/b]
Given that, financially, they get diddlysquat from the HC anyway I don't think there's much to worry about on that count.
If I were you I'd be more concerned for the survival of those clubs which currently get a large slice of their income from the HC because, as CH points out, Sky ain't going to be willing to pay through the nose for a tournament where a huge slice of the potential TV audience has gone AWOL.
Can you imagine if some of the French clubs did go back into the HC?
Cher M. Camou,
We have fulfilled our obligations by sending out 15 blokes no-one had ever heard of to play in front of 35 people (mostly the players' parents) and a couple of chiens.
Please find enclosed herewith our invoice for 2 million euros.
Up yours,
M. Boudjellal
Cher M. Camou,
We have fulfilled our obligations by sending out 15 blokes no-one had ever heard of to play in front of 35 people (mostly the players' parents) and a couple of chiens.
Please find enclosed herewith our invoice for 2 million euros.
Up yours,
M. Boudjellal
You could be right hopefully neither side gets to find out.
The other problem from an RFU point of view is it is would not be great preparation for the WC to have no european competition to develop the players.
The other problem from an RFU point of view is it is would not be great preparation for the WC to have no european competition to develop the players.
You can be sure that the PRL and owners have lined up some decent SH opposition, in the event that they don't play in the HEC.
And, as Nigel Wray has already said, any attempt by the IRB or the Unions to block club matches will result in a 'see you in court'.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
And, as Nigel Wray has already said, any attempt by the IRB or the Unions to block club matches will result in a 'see you in court'.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Convex Hull
You can be sure that the PRL and owners have lined up some decent SH opposition, in the event that they don't play in the HEC.
And, as Nigel Wray has already said, any attempt by the IRB or the Unions to block club matches will result in a 'see you in court'.
My understanding is that Sky cover most of the SA rugby so you could have a problem with that one and all the SH unions directly control their franchises. SA also want to pitch for the RWC so will not want to do anything to annoy the IRB.
The legal angle is interesting. I discussed it recently with a friend who has years of european law experience and his view is that it would be a very costly process for the prl and highly unlikely to succeed in doing anything but make the lawyers richer.
Is that the same Nigel Wray who was going to see the Championship Club owners in court a few years back, if they refused to accept his vision of Ring Fencing the Prem.
Quote:FireworksQuote:Convex Hull
You can be sure that the PRL and owners have lined up some decent SH opposition, in the event that they don't play in the HEC.
And, as Nigel Wray has already said, any attempt by the IRB or the Unions to block club matches will result in a 'see you in court'.
My understanding is that Sky cover most of the SA rugby so you could have a problem with that one and all the SH unions directly control their franchises. SA also want to pitch for the RWC so will not want to do anything to annoy the IRB.
The legal angle is interesting. I discussed it recently with a friend who has years of european law experience and his view is that it would be a very costly process for the prl and highly unlikely to succeed in doing anything but make the lawyers richer.
So I guess that you are predicting that SKY shells out loads of loot for an English audience of three people and a dog.
Good luck with that one....
Who, in their right mind, is going to pay £20-£30 a month to see half a dozen decent matches between an Irish team and the French each season, when they can watch French and English league rugby with BT?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:15:17:05 by Convex Hull.
Quote:Convex HullQuote:FireworksQuote:Convex Hull
You can be sure that the PRL and owners have lined up some decent SH opposition, in the event that they don't play in the HEC.
And, as Nigel Wray has already said, any attempt by the IRB or the Unions to block club matches will result in a 'see you in court'.
My understanding is that Sky cover most of the SA rugby so you could have a problem with that one and all the SH unions directly control their franchises. SA also want to pitch for the RWC so will not want to do anything to annoy the IRB.
The legal angle is interesting. I discussed it recently with a friend who has years of european law experience and his view is that it would be a very costly process for the prl and highly unlikely to succeed in doing anything but make the lawyers richer.
So I guess that you are predicting that SKY shells out loads of loot for an English audience of three people and a dog.
Good luck with that one....
Who, in their right mind, is going to pay £20-£30 a month to see half a dozen decent matches between an Irish team and the French each season, when they can watch French and English league rugby with BT?
I was not aware that BT had any rights to french top14 rugby. My understanding is that tv deal is being looked at now but is going nowhere till the HC issue is sorted as the LNR licence to run the top14 has expired and the new one will not be forthcoming until the dump the RCC and move back to the HC.
I try to wat some AP games when I can but outside of the top few, like in the rabo, the standard is muck and is quiet boring. As a product on its own I wonder how long BT will want to fund it.
Unless I have had a series of 'senior moments', I have been watching French club rugby on BT. A couple of matches each weekend. I presume that I will still be watching it next year, because I certainly won't have a SKY subscription, along with lots of other people - if our local TV installers are to be believed.
SKY have already lost the important battle to BT, namely football, and BT have much bigger pockets than SKY.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
SKY have already lost the important battle to BT, namely football, and BT have much bigger pockets than SKY.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
BT have the right to show highlights only from French Top 14 at present IIRC.
You (Fireworks not Convex) are correct that the FFR are trying to use the licence to push the LNR back towards the HC.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:16:03:59 by Teah.
You (Fireworks not Convex) are correct that the FFR are trying to use the licence to push the LNR back towards the HC.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:16:03:59 by Teah.
They may or may not have the 'rights', but they certainly have been showing the matches (in full).
Quote:Teah
BT have the right to show highlights only from French Top 14 at present IIRC.
You (Fireworks not Convex) are correct that the FFR are trying to use the licence to push the LNR back towards the HC.
Bzzt, thanks for playing but BT Sports like ESPN before them have rights to the Top14. The full matches.
BT have the UK rights to Top 14. They acquired them from ESPN, They mainly show highlights and show a very limited number of games in full.
Fireworks is referring to the French TV rights, showing French rugby in France. These are currently held by Canale Plus, but as Firewrks says, coming up for renegotiation under licence from FFR. As Fireworks says says, FFR may use it as a threat to LNR.
Fireworks is referring to the French TV rights, showing French rugby in France. These are currently held by Canale Plus, but as Firewrks says, coming up for renegotiation under licence from FFR. As Fireworks says says, FFR may use it as a threat to LNR.
Yep - I certainly have a series link on my Virgin TV box for "Live: French Top 14 Rugby" on BT Sport 2.
Next game to be shown is Sat 23/11 @ 13:00 "ASM Clermont Auvergne v Racing Metro 92"
Next game to be shown is Sat 23/11 @ 13:00 "ASM Clermont Auvergne v Racing Metro 92"
Quote:Convex Hull
So I guess that you are predicting that SKY shells out loads of loot for an English audience of three people and a dog.
Good luck with that one....
Who, in their right mind, is going to pay £20-£30 a month to see half a dozen decent matches between an Irish team and the French each season, when they can watch French and English league rugby with BT?
So it seems that Convex's remark above remains a telling one?
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
No, what happens in France is of far more importance to whether we have a European Cup or Champions league instead.
If the lawyers do become involved, and I hope they don't, then the Heineken Cup less the English clubs, or the English and French clubs if the French clubs don't crack, will be able to go ahead.
It may not be possible to watch the European Champions league while legal action is ongoing, or indeed for that competition to even take place.
The renegotiation of the French Top 14 TV rights is of far greater importance to the French clubs than what league matches Glynn can or can't watch from Horsham. Only a few quid a week for him but millions of euros in revenue to the French clubs, in addition to the Euros the FFR has waved at the French clubs.
I have Virgin media cable TV. I am able to watch skysports and BT sport. I don't have to chose. I am very happy watching rugby on both. However this is again irrelevant to a battle for control of the game.
If the lawyers do become involved, and I hope they don't, then the Heineken Cup less the English clubs, or the English and French clubs if the French clubs don't crack, will be able to go ahead.
It may not be possible to watch the European Champions league while legal action is ongoing, or indeed for that competition to even take place.
The renegotiation of the French Top 14 TV rights is of far greater importance to the French clubs than what league matches Glynn can or can't watch from Horsham. Only a few quid a week for him but millions of euros in revenue to the French clubs, in addition to the Euros the FFR has waved at the French clubs.
I have Virgin media cable TV. I am able to watch skysports and BT sport. I don't have to chose. I am very happy watching rugby on both. However this is again irrelevant to a battle for control of the game.
Are you sure the Heineken Cup goes ahead. I doubt Heineken would not have a cluase in their sponsorship contract about who is competing and would want to renegotiate if there is less exposure. As I am sure SKY will...
As the use of alcohol related advertising in France is not allowed, it's known as the "H Cup", whilst everyone knows what it stands for, I cannot see Heineken being too keen on paying for just part of their name being used....
The tipping point will come if BT secures any more rights to significant sports, like cricket. Rugby is way below darts in number of viewers, as I recall.
SKY took a huge hit on their share price recently when they lost European football. A couple more big wins by BT may see them beating a retreat.
Rugby, even French League rugby, is down in the noise when compared with other sports.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
SKY took a huge hit on their share price recently when they lost European football. A couple more big wins by BT may see them beating a retreat.
Rugby, even French League rugby, is down in the noise when compared with other sports.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:ChrisR
Are you sure the Heineken Cup goes ahead. I doubt Heineken would not have a cluase in their sponsorship contract about who is competing and would want to renegotiate if there is less exposure. As I am sure SKY will...
Well it's happened once before. Th English clubs didn't take part in 1998/99 (ish) for a season and the Heiny sponsorship carried on. But it was early days then.
Can anyone remember what the circumstances were around that? I can't but I wouldn't be surprised if the French had a hand in it.
Quote:ChrisR
Are you sure the Heineken Cup goes ahead. I doubt Heineken would not have a cluase in their sponsorship contract about who is competing and would want to renegotiate if there is less exposure. As I am sure SKY will...
I thought that Heineken sponsorship was up for renegotiation at the end of the season? Sounds like a great deal for them, no mention of their name in France, no English viewers and an Irish contingent focused on Guinness.
Extend the sponsorship? It is what my American friends would describe as a 'no brainer'.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Chris, IIRC Sky signed with the ERC in full knowledge that the English and French clubs had withdrawn at that stage. I would have thought that point would have been covered.
Yes, Sky would be paying much less for a competition without the English and French clubs. However if the French clubs crack.....
There would be no legal impediment to the European Cup going ahead, whether sponsored by Heineken or anybody else. Whether it would go ahead, I agree, is a separate point. However the rival Rugby Champions Cup might be prevented from taking place until any legal battle is resolved.
Pierre Camou, FFR President, I discover, is a Basque who took part in the 1968 protests in France. He backpacked across the world, worked in a local bank in Bayonne and distrusts the bigger Banks. He believes in living a simple life. He appears not to be subject to persuasion by the LNR thus far...
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:18:37:32 by Teah.
Yes, Sky would be paying much less for a competition without the English and French clubs. However if the French clubs crack.....
There would be no legal impediment to the European Cup going ahead, whether sponsored by Heineken or anybody else. Whether it would go ahead, I agree, is a separate point. However the rival Rugby Champions Cup might be prevented from taking place until any legal battle is resolved.
Pierre Camou, FFR President, I discover, is a Basque who took part in the 1968 protests in France. He backpacked across the world, worked in a local bank in Bayonne and distrusts the bigger Banks. He believes in living a simple life. He appears not to be subject to persuasion by the LNR thus far...
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:20:18:37:32 by Teah.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
For what it is worth, which is not a lot.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
For what it is worth, which is not a lot.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Indeed, the other day they were reporting that the Froggies had folded at the same time as the grauniad was reporting the complete opposite.
CH - Sky unlikely to beat a retreat. Champions League viewing actually accounts for very little of their viewing in % share terms. It's the prestige of them losing it which is the headline grabber rather than the loss of audience.
And you're right by the way, rugby comes well below darts in terms of viewing figures.
And you're right by the way, rugby comes well below darts in terms of viewing figures.
Terrestrial services have caught up with satellite broadcasting, now that analogue services have been withdrawn. The whole SKY business model, based around satellites, is coming under attack imo.
They are, at best, maintaining current levels of subscriptions and are reliant on add-on services to sustain profitability. Most of those add-ons can be provided at no cost, or minimal cost, by the service providers, such as BT or free-to-air.
They are going to have a big problem in the coming years, I suspect.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
They are, at best, maintaining current levels of subscriptions and are reliant on add-on services to sustain profitability. Most of those add-ons can be provided at no cost, or minimal cost, by the service providers, such as BT or free-to-air.
They are going to have a big problem in the coming years, I suspect.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
The BUT is that the Sky business model isn't about tv - it's about what they call "Triple Play". Namely tv services, broadband services and telephony services.
Both Sky and BT are trying to get as many people as possible to buy all 3 from them, that's when they can start to monetise these rights (as well as supporting them in a small way through advertising).
Both Sky and BT are trying to get as many people as possible to buy all 3 from them, that's when they can start to monetise these rights (as well as supporting them in a small way through advertising).
Quote:Convex Hull
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10464060/Premiership-Rugby-given-assurances-Top-14-clubs-remain-committed-to-breakaway-Rugby-Champions-Cup.html
For what it is worth, which is not a lot.
Let's face it, for all the PL & Pro clubs blustering about not wanting the ERC to govern the new Euro Cup, there WILL be a group of people that will form a Governing Body and this Governing Body will be given a name of sorts and I have no doubt those individuals that sit on the new Euro Governing Body (EGB?) will each collect a handsome salary for their few hours work each year.
PL 12, Top 14 and RABO 12 will all be part of the Euro Cup comp and the oversight will be done a newly formed Euro Governing Body that is made up of the clubs & regions with representation (but not a majority) on the board by members of the six unions.
Now, I don't know how many make up the present ERC's board but it probably is less than the 38 representatives of the PL/Pro/Rabo clubs and the 6 unions that will make up the new board of the Euro Governing Body.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:21:10:22:42 by CK55FEZ.
I can see that a lesson in the history, ownership and structure of ERC is required.
ERC is OWNED by the unions - EQUALLY. This means that the unions representing 12 clubs/teams can gang together to outvote the unions representing 26 clubs/teams, and they often do.
The new governing body will not be owned by the unions and each of the 38 clubs/teams (if 38 it is to be) will have an equal vote.
The RFU and the FFR delegated their votes on the ERC board to the PRL and LNR clubs, but still amounting to just a 1/6 share of the total vote each.
When enough unions + PRL/LNR were fed up enough with Lux to want to get rid of him, the FFR seized its votes back in order to ensure that Lux was re-elected, otherwise if the LNR clubs had been able to vote Peter Wheeler would've got the job and this would all have been sorted out years ago.
And you wonder why PRL and the LNR want nothing more to do with a tournament OWNED and run by the unions? If the new governing body is incompetent and partisan, the clubs will be able to SACK it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:21:10:53:25 by Shhh!.
ERC is OWNED by the unions - EQUALLY. This means that the unions representing 12 clubs/teams can gang together to outvote the unions representing 26 clubs/teams, and they often do.
The new governing body will not be owned by the unions and each of the 38 clubs/teams (if 38 it is to be) will have an equal vote.
The RFU and the FFR delegated their votes on the ERC board to the PRL and LNR clubs, but still amounting to just a 1/6 share of the total vote each.
When enough unions + PRL/LNR were fed up enough with Lux to want to get rid of him, the FFR seized its votes back in order to ensure that Lux was re-elected, otherwise if the LNR clubs had been able to vote Peter Wheeler would've got the job and this would all have been sorted out years ago.
And you wonder why PRL and the LNR want nothing more to do with a tournament OWNED and run by the unions? If the new governing body is incompetent and partisan, the clubs will be able to SACK it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:21:10:53:25 by Shhh!.
Quote:Rupes
The BUT is that the Sky business model isn't about tv - it's about what they call "Triple Play". Namely tv services, broadband services and telephony services.
Both Sky and BT are trying to get as many people as possible to buy all 3 from them, that's when they can start to monetise these rights (as well as supporting them in a small way through advertising).
BT owns the cable that goes into your house. They have tacit government support, for what it is worth I think that SKY will lose.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:21:20:47:07 by Convex Hull.
Quote:Shhh!
.....(abridged quote)............And you wonder why PRL and the LNR want nothing more to do with a tournament OWNED and run by the unions? If the new governing body is incompetent and partisan, the clubs will be able to SACK it.
If reports are true (see other thread) then this is all rather academic as it seems the French may have bailed out.
'L'Angleterre, ah, la perfide Angleterre,
que le rempart de ses mers rendait inaccessible aux Romains,
la foi du Sauveur y est abordée.
It very well may not be so Perfidious Albion now.
A rather pointless press release from PRL, basically asking who'll play In the Heineken if then and LNR don't.
Maybe the last sentence is the most important bit:
The two new competitions will be based on:
* Expansion into new markets.
South Africa here we come? From a TV audience perspective it makes the most sense to have the three most populous fan bases in the same time zone play in the same competition.
Gives Toulon and us an advantage though. We already speak Afrikaans!
Maybe the last sentence is the most important bit:
The two new competitions will be based on:
* Expansion into new markets.
South Africa here we come? From a TV audience perspective it makes the most sense to have the three most populous fan bases in the same time zone play in the same competition.
Gives Toulon and us an advantage though. We already speak Afrikaans!
One assumes the next step will be the five unions making the RFU and the English clubs an offer they simply cant refuse, in the end its about the money.
No Amlin under the ERC proposal?
Oooh goody, I can't wait to pay my £30 a month to BT - so I can watch Fatboy Barnes waxing Lyrical about Munster A putting 60 points on Zebre.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Oooh goody, I can't wait to pay my £30 a month to BT - so I can watch Fatboy Barnes waxing Lyrical about Munster A putting 60 points on Zebre.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Don't know who your stock broker is but I think you will find sky still trading around £8.30 hardly a huge hit on the high of £8.39.
[www.ft.com]
I haven't checked whether they have recovered.
Either way, they are under pressure from BT and a lot of English subscribers are very likely to join me - by dumping them.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I haven't checked whether they have recovered.
Either way, they are under pressure from BT and a lot of English subscribers are very likely to join me - by dumping them.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Pablo - that is the day's high.
I think you will find they reached a high of 949 on Monday 4 November. So 830ish is quite a fall.
I think you will find they reached a high of 949 on Monday 4 November. So 830ish is quite a fall.
Sky Sports reporting via their Twitter that the French have bailed on their plans to leave ERC and have signed up for next year's Heineken Cup with the English teams omitted.
[twitter.com]
So, no European competition for English clubs next year, it seems. A HUGE shame and everyone involved with the Champion's Cup has to take a long look at themselves.
[twitter.com]
So, no European competition for English clubs next year, it seems. A HUGE shame and everyone involved with the Champion's Cup has to take a long look at themselves.
If true, the French clubs have taken their 30 pieces of silver from Camou and Co at the FFR.
The swine.
The swine.
More like the French need a hard look at themselves. Yellow stripes and white feathers for them. 30 Pieces of silver from M. Camou.
Snap! Teah.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:21:20:10:14 by tpr's headmistress.
Snap! Teah.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:21:20:10:14 by tpr's headmistress.
Take a step back and a big deep breath, it doesn't say the French clubs, just the French which could mean the FFR
No Welsh regions have signed up, yet, and only 6 'unnamed' French sides by the looks of it.
So they have 14 teams out of 20 by my calculations...
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
So they have 14 teams out of 20 by my calculations...
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
It reports that the unions, bar RFU, have agreed. That really isn't a surprise.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Great from Wray, some brilliant lines in there as well - "last bastion of the landlord versus serf relationship"
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
The blazers don't like it up 'em, though. This one will continue to rumble on for quite a while yet.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
As this is largely about unions v clubs, I wonder whether the unions signing anything is relevant to what will actually emerge.
I just dread the prospect of it ending up like darts where there are two rival camps, or worse still like boxing.
And do you know what - reading Nigel's comments - when you put it like that - he is ABSOLUTELY right!
As Patton said " id rather have a division of Germans in front of me than two divisions of French behind me". lets hope we don't end up with a 98/99 scenarios with no English clubs in European competition. Nige would do well to ease up on the sabre rattling if he's reliant on French support. But I guess he knows more than we do.
Looks like each French club participating to get an additional 2mill each from the union. Lots of silvery reasons to shaft Nigel!
Quote:The Bard
I just dread the prospect of it ending up like darts where there are two rival camps, or worse still like boxing.
as someone who has recently taken an interest in darts, i can tell you thats its not too bad with the pdc being effectively the top tier with the bdo a long way behind in terms of crowd entertainment/atmosphere, press coverage and the quality of the players (thats despite bdo getting more viewers being on the bbc and all)
however admittedly a similar situation wouldn't work for rugby in the slightest
There are now some disobliging comments about Nigel appearing in the thread below the article.
Yes, mainly from Southern Irish provinces who are happy to see the English and French fund their game. I think they can be safely ignored.
Ask the players and coaches in private what they think about the shambles. Landlord versus serf my a***, its the landlords like Wray and Craig who are the driving forces, not the guys who go onto the field. As it was the 6N who created the ERC in the first place, why would they then decide to do away with it.
Face it, the PRL put the cart before the horse in almost all their efforts, look at the way they dealt with BT behind everyone's backs, showing no loyalty to Sky. Look at their pathetic efforts over governance.
Face it, the PRL put the cart before the horse in almost all their efforts, look at the way they dealt with BT behind everyone's backs, showing no loyalty to Sky. Look at their pathetic efforts over governance.
Rupert Murdoch would sell his granny, if it turned a profit, as would BT.
It is the legal, as well as moral, responsibility of every Chairman and CEO of every Premiership club to negotiate the best possible price for their services, on behalf of the shareholders and employees.
As Nigel Wray correctly said, The Unions are trying to impose restraints of trade on the clubs, for their own benefit.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
It is the legal, as well as moral, responsibility of every Chairman and CEO of every Premiership club to negotiate the best possible price for their services, on behalf of the shareholders and employees.
As Nigel Wray correctly said, The Unions are trying to impose restraints of trade on the clubs, for their own benefit.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Plenty more twists and turns to come. Some juicy bits from the Torygraph:
The English and French clubs could survive without meaningful European rugby, and as suggested by reports that English clubs are holding talks with South African teams, they could yet look elsewhere. But the Welsh regions simply could not. As the Wales legend Gareth Edwards said last week, the regional game would be “dead” without proper European competition.
The regions have previously stated their support for the RCC so the news on Thursday that the Welsh Rugby Union had agreed to a 20-team Heineken Cup next season, without the English clubs, would have been a surprise. That is even though it is understood that Stuart Gallacher, the chief executive of Regional Rugby Wales, ..., who was present ..., was asked to leave the room having presented his case for the regions.
He was asked to leave the room! What are they, a bunch of children playing a game of hide-and-seek? Dear God, small wonder the clubs want nothing to do with this amateurish shower.
There is so little detail in Thursday’s proposal, which might be little more than a statement to try to preserve the European Rugby Cup Limited.
It is thought that the French union president, Pierre Camou, has promised four or five French clubs for the 20-team competition next year, but as of yet nobody knows who they are, or where he intends to get the £1.7m he has reportedly offered each French club to stay with ERC.
There must be a genuine fear among the Celtic nations that the proposed ERC competition will be little more than a knockout version of the RaboDirect Pro 12.
The English and French clubs could survive without meaningful European rugby, and as suggested by reports that English clubs are holding talks with South African teams, they could yet look elsewhere. But the Welsh regions simply could not. As the Wales legend Gareth Edwards said last week, the regional game would be “dead” without proper European competition.
The regions have previously stated their support for the RCC so the news on Thursday that the Welsh Rugby Union had agreed to a 20-team Heineken Cup next season, without the English clubs, would have been a surprise. That is even though it is understood that Stuart Gallacher, the chief executive of Regional Rugby Wales, ..., who was present ..., was asked to leave the room having presented his case for the regions.
He was asked to leave the room! What are they, a bunch of children playing a game of hide-and-seek? Dear God, small wonder the clubs want nothing to do with this amateurish shower.
There is so little detail in Thursday’s proposal, which might be little more than a statement to try to preserve the European Rugby Cup Limited.
It is thought that the French union president, Pierre Camou, has promised four or five French clubs for the 20-team competition next year, but as of yet nobody knows who they are, or where he intends to get the £1.7m he has reportedly offered each French club to stay with ERC.
There must be a genuine fear among the Celtic nations that the proposed ERC competition will be little more than a knockout version of the RaboDirect Pro 12.
Some of the reports on the conduct of the discussions beggars belief, if they are correct.
As you note, 'asked to leave the room'!?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
As you note, 'asked to leave the room'!?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Our Nige keeps saying NEARLY done when referring to the RCC deal. How nearly done?. I remain to be convinced that any of our French brethren will fully support the premier clubs stance when push eventually comes to shove. 2 million pieces of silver is a strong motivator even to some of the top French sides. The South African option will be great for the millionaires amongst us ! We are not Manchester United or the New York Yankees so the global appeal is limited. You can watch live top flight rugby in SA for about a third of what it costs here. Don't see swathes of Africans coming to the Allianz or Wembley either. Common sense needs to prevail with a merit based equitable tournament being organised. I am a rugby fan who likes to watch live rugby. Who cares what it's called or by whom it's sponsored as long as it provides some of the treats we have experienced over the last few years, which will disappear without inclusion of the Celts et al no matter how much glitter we sprinkle on this steaming turd. Before I receive an economics lecture I am aware that things must progress and that we need BT, BskyB etc but at what cost to the Allianz faithful?.Kind of ironic if we win it this year!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:25:14:39:04 by Pablo1632.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:25:14:39:04 by Pablo1632.
Quote:Pablo1632
Our Nige keeps saying NEARLY done when referring to the RCC deal. How nearly done?. I remain to be convinced that any of our French brethren will fully support the premier clubs stance when push eventually comes to shove. 2 million pieces of silver is a strong motivator.
The colour of M. Camou's money remains to be seen. I believe the FFR is virtually bankrupt.
Well he is a French B-anker!. My pal at Clermont tells me they will be in the Heineken next year so who knows what the truth is. Maybe Patton wasn't far out " give me a division of Germans in front of me rather than two divisions of French behind me"
It may well be the Heineken, but who will be running it?
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
How is it that "nearly done" can go on the record yet the club's policy is not to confirm anything (eg a signing) until it's confirmed? ;-)
In all of this the fans and the rugby has been forgotten. A brilliant competition that needed a bit of updating has been destroyed and if it goes the way it is looking then everyone but the french will be losers.
The french will decide which way they are going in the next month and they are more likely to go with the HC because of the deal they need to do with the FFR to allow them to do their own tv deal which could be worth over 3m per club.
That it has come down to a few tv deals some rich owners and the unions fighting over scraps is depressing.
The french will decide which way they are going in the next month and they are more likely to go with the HC because of the deal they need to do with the FFR to allow them to do their own tv deal which could be worth over 3m per club.
That it has come down to a few tv deals some rich owners and the unions fighting over scraps is depressing.
Quote: "........... If, on the other hand, they (the RFU) are ostracised by every other European union the whole foundations of the Six Nations, the region's chief financial driver, start to tremble."
Grauniad's got its head up its proverbial.
Do the writer really think there is some great bond between the RFU and the other unions?
History has shown time and again how the celtics have collectively worked together to disrupt RFU plans.
Grauniad's got its head up its proverbial.
Do the writer really think there is some great bond between the RFU and the other unions?
History has shown time and again how the celtics have collectively worked together to disrupt RFU plans.
Quote:Shhh!
Unfortunately the inevitable result of years of ERC mismanagement.
We could argue that one until the proverbial cows came home. I am sure will not agree with me on this one but I think the whole thing went wrong when the game went professional and the RFU and FFR did not follow the rest of the world and let the clubs set up independent of them.
If the current clubs were all franchises of the Unions there would a lot less trouble and we could get on with the rugby.
I just want to get back to some rugby.
If the clubs were all franchised, I probably wouldn't bother going along - much as the Welsh and Scottish rugby supporters have disappeared.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Ditto.
This is what a lot of Celts don't seem to grasp: our ancient clubs matter to us which is why, if push comes to shove, we'll manage without the Heineken Cup.
This is what a lot of Celts don't seem to grasp: our ancient clubs matter to us which is why, if push comes to shove, we'll manage without the Heineken Cup.
Quote:Fireworks
I just want to get back to some rugby.
You probably wouldn't be so despondent if you had meaningful rugby to watch every weekend.
Of all the arguments in favour of the unions, the least convincing is that they'd have run their domestic game better than has happened in England or France. IIRC, not one of the four Welsh or two Scottish regions has any remote chance of financial self-support, lacking profits or other external resources. They are perpetual life-support, and have disconnected from the life-blood of local community involvement. To argue that England should franchise a series of regional clubs is plain daft. I'd not fancy having to tell Bath, Bristol, Cornish Pirates, Exeter, Gloucester and Worcester that they are to amalgamate into two sides henceforth to be called West Country and South Mercia. And anyone who thinks that merging Tigers and Saints into East Midlands would run very far must need to up his medication.
Franchising in the NH has failed, continues to decline and will ultimately kill domestic rugby professional rugby except as a feeder for France and England
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Franchising in the NH has failed, continues to decline and will ultimately kill domestic rugby professional rugby except as a feeder for France and England
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
That is an excellent precis of why the English and French clubs are so uneasy with a path plotted for the HEC by the unions.
It is not about greedy owners trying to get rich, but rather proud clubs securing a stable future.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
It is not about greedy owners trying to get rich, but rather proud clubs securing a stable future.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Agreed, and that was without mentioning the Welsh 5th Region the Celtic Warriors, and the dispute between the WRU and Leighton Samuel which was settled out of court in 2006.
Quote:Shhh!Quote:Fireworks
I just want to get back to some rugby.
You probably wouldn't be so despondent if you had meaningful rugby to watch every weekend.
Very good. That is such a witty and sharp retort I am really stung by it.
We have plenty of meaningful rugby and we also have teams that play exciting rugby worth watching. I am not sure who ate your porridge but I am trying to discuss this in as conciliatory a manner as possible.
The only winners here are the french. We all lose something and the money they gain will mean they can buy your players just as easily as they can buy ours. I would like to see an attempt by the unions to extend the salary cap to all european teams. That is something that only the unions you seem to hate so much could do and it might create a more even pitch for everyone to compete on.
Quote:Innings
Of all the arguments in favour of the unions, the least convincing is that they'd have run their domestic game better than has happened in England or France. IIRC, not one of the four Welsh or two Scottish regions has any remote chance of financial self-support, lacking profits or other external resources. They are perpetual life-support, and have disconnected from the life-blood of local community involvement. To argue that England should franchise a series of regional clubs is plain daft. I'd not fancy having to tell Bath, Bristol, Cornish Pirates, Exeter, Gloucester and Worcester that they are to amalgamate into two sides henceforth to be called West Country and South Mercia. And anyone who thinks that merging Tigers and Saints into East Midlands would run very far must need to up his medication.
Franchising in the NH has failed, continues to decline and will ultimately kill domestic rugby professional rugby except as a feeder for France and England
Like with anything the view is different depending where you stand. The welsh and the scots made a mess from the start but if the scots were left as independent clubs they would have vanished years ago because of a lack of finance.
However it works quiet well in Ireland. Mostly because we left the clubs to play amateur rugby and were lucky to have the 4 provinces already in place.
You cannot say it has been a total failure in the NH when the two biggest leagues have not tried it. I would never have thought it sensible to get rid of the clubs but they could have become the franchises. There was and is no need to create regions when the work was already done. I do think it would have worked if it was tried from the start but changing now would be very painful for the game.
It is difficult to say which is the better model when you have the two competing in the same area because they effect each other. If there was only independent clubs in the NH there would be no meaningful teams in scotland, wales or italy and Ireland would struggle. That would not be good for the future of rugby.
I'm making a perfectly serious point. Here in England we care passionately about our clubs and the rivalries between them and if we have to make do without the Heineken Cup for a while then we will. But how will the Rabo League clubs (and their supporters) manage without the HC (or with an HC which turns out to be just a knockout version of the Rabo)? Pretty poorly is my estimate - in fact, if it went on for any length of time, it would more-or-less kill professional rugby in some of those countries.
Salary cap has the square root of naff all to do with the unions. The salary cap in England is imposed by PRL, not the RFU, and the salary cap in France is imposed by LNR, not the FFR.
Salary cap has the square root of naff all to do with the unions. The salary cap in England is imposed by PRL, not the RFU, and the salary cap in France is imposed by LNR, not the FFR.
Quote:Shhh!
I'm making a perfectly serious point. Here in England we care passionately about our clubs and the rivalries between them and if we have to make do without the Heineken Cup for a while then we will. But how will the Rabo League clubs (and their supporters) manage without the HC (or with an HC which turns out to be just a knockout version of the Rabo)? Pretty poorly is my estimate - in fact, if it went on for any length of time, it would more-or-less kill professional rugby in some of those countries.
Salary cap has the square root of naff all to do with the unions. The salary cap in England is imposed by PRL, not the RFU, and the salary cap in France is imposed by LNR, not the FFR.
I am quite happy that you are that attached to your club. Without ardent fans there is no game. If the BT deal is good then your teams will be able to do without european action but as a rugby fan do you really want to. There is a rumour about the content of the BT deal that says it is no so hot after next year if there is no european rugby if that is true it could hurt some of the smaller clubs.
It would hurt us a lot to not have it but at the moment it looks like we will have all the rabo teams and the french so the HC will go on. It is damaged and will not be as good as before but it will go on.
The point about the salary cap and the unions is not to be combative. I do not think the french clubs would want one but I do think all the unions working together could force one. Unlikely as it would be to work it would be good for you as well as us.
I suspect that there will be plenty of international action for English teams, probably to higher a standard than much of the HEC, and to larger crowds.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
French clubs meeting today:-
Meeting
Also apparently the whole Rabo league qualify for the Heineken Cup next season as there is no Amlin (way to support grass roots rugby ERC, how about inviting some of the smaller nations to compete).
The whole Rabo league qualifying should ensure some cricket scores.
Meeting
Also apparently the whole Rabo league qualify for the Heineken Cup next season as there is no Amlin (way to support grass roots rugby ERC, how about inviting some of the smaller nations to compete).
The whole Rabo league qualifying should ensure some cricket scores.
Quote:Fireworks
I am quite happy that you are that attached to your club. Without ardent fans there is no game. If the BT deal is good then your teams will be able to do without european action but as a rugby fan do you really want to.
If doing without European rugby for a while is what it takes to get a tournament which is professionally and equitably run then so be it. As noted already, the free slots in the calendar will be filled by something attractive.
Quote:Fireworks
It would hurt us a lot to not have it but at the moment it looks like we will have all the rabo teams and the french so the HC will go on. It is damaged and will not be as good as before but it will go on.
You might get something from France, precisely what remains to be seen.
Quote:Fireworks
The point about the salary cap and the unions is not to be combative. I do not think the french clubs would want one but I do think all the unions working together could force one. Unlikely as it would be to work it would be good for you as well as us.
The French already have a salary cap, it's just a bit(!) higher than for the rest of us!
From the point of view of the RFU I'd have thought that the salary cap is a double-edged sword: on the one hand, it encourages English players to seek their fortunes in France, but on the other hand it keeps the English clubs from hiring loads of foreign players and turning into Toulon.
At the moment the lure of the French Euro seems a much bigger problem for the Irish and Welsh than for the English as regards player retention.
With the size of their squads and the extra 2 Million Euro could the French provide two teams, one for thr HC and one for the RCC for seven weeks a season.
Agreed re the passion and rivalry but without the French we are the losers. An Anglo French, Welsh cup may have brought the others into line eventually.Sadly this looks similar to 98/99 when the lack of European Rugby was felt throughout the country. You can bet that BT are furiously exploring ways to make some form of climb down palatable for the premiership. Enough with combative statements from our hierarchy and be a part of what appears to be a much fairer tournament. The French are the winners now claiming that their demands have been met and surprise surprise " we owe allegiance to our union and not the English " History shows us what bad allies they are! No matter how its dressed up with potential South African games etc it will never have the same appeal to ordinary fans as a packed encounter between the best of England and the Best of Europe.
There seems to be a lot of smugness on the article assuming that the LNR are going to tow the FFR line.
I would wait and see what happens...
I would wait and see what happens...
My French rugby friends, some of them ex-professional players, have nothing but contempt for Toulon. They do not consider them to be a French team.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Just spotted this good point on the Tiggs board:
The Axis unions last week announced that the HC would have a twenty-team format, with no 2nd-tier tournament.
There are 12 sides in the Rabble league, and there are 14 in the, erm, Top 14!
12 + 14 = 26. With no 2nd-tier tournament.
So who doesn't get to play? This will doubtless be on the table at Orly today.
The Axis unions last week announced that the HC would have a twenty-team format, with no 2nd-tier tournament.
There are 12 sides in the Rabble league, and there are 14 in the, erm, Top 14!
12 + 14 = 26. With no 2nd-tier tournament.
So who doesn't get to play? This will doubtless be on the table at Orly today.
Quote:Shhh!
The Axis unions last week announced ......
don't let George Bush know there is an Axis Union in Europe - remember what he did to the Axis of Evil in Iraq
rnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 1m #frenchclubsmeeting @simonrug French Clubs have decided to stick with FFR. They will open a door for the English clubs to come back.
I liked the tags against this message:
surrender monkeys, cheese eating,
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I liked the tags against this message:
surrender monkeys, cheese eating,
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Rugby World ‏@Rugbyworldmag 36s
Being reported French clubs have come into line with their union and are sticking with ERC and Heineken Cup, leaving English clubs isolated
According to French rugby journalist @ArnaudDavidSO the Top 14 clubs will now try to convince the Prem clubs to rejoin the Heineken Cup.
I could put a stereotypical comment about the French ....but....I won't
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:28:17:06:45 by 1876-Fez.
Being reported French clubs have come into line with their union and are sticking with ERC and Heineken Cup, leaving English clubs isolated
According to French rugby journalist @ArnaudDavidSO the Top 14 clubs will now try to convince the Prem clubs to rejoin the Heineken Cup.
I could put a stereotypical comment about the French ....but....I won't
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:28:17:06:45 by 1876-Fez.
HA!
All is not what it seems! L'Equipe reports that French participation in next year's HC has two conditions:
1. That the English also participate and
2. A new governing body (not ERC) is to be in place by the 2015/2016 season.
Puts a slightly different complexion on things, n'est pas?
All is not what it seems! L'Equipe reports that French participation in next year's HC has two conditions:
1. That the English also participate and
2. A new governing body (not ERC) is to be in place by the 2015/2016 season.
Puts a slightly different complexion on things, n'est pas?
Cheese eating surrender monkeys!
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Shhh, check out Midi Olypique usually well informed. They report that the surrender monkeys have disassociated themselves from the English and are to remain under ERC governance . My French not perfect but that's the just I think!
Quote:Pablo1632
Shhh, check out Midi Olypique usually well informed. They report that the surrender monkeys have disassociated themselves from the English and are to remain under ERC governance . My French not perfect but that's the just I think!
Anyone who has read only the extremely sparse statement put out by LNR will be seriously under-informed. L'Equipe clearly believes it knows more.
Sky and The Times also reporting similar story on the French decision now.
Looks pretty inevitable to me know that the English Clubs have gotten themselves in a hole to the point where the don't compete in Europe next season, for the French its clearly more about the money than power.
I am sure there are more twists and turns to come, it seems to me that the French Clubs have agreed to put back the inevitable changes by a year, and given that The English have signed their own deal with BT, they are not going to be able to play in THE HC next season, even if they want to, without massive compromises from all the stakeholders and mainly BT and Sky who are the games paymaster, not the unions or The Clubs
Since you obviously didn't understand it in English let's try it in French:
En l’état actuel des choses, une avancée a été trouvée : à savoir la participation à la H Cup, avec deux réserves : que les clubs anglais acceptent d’y participer, et que la FFR appuie la LNR dans la création d’une nouvelle entité, qui ne sera plus l’ERC, et ce à l’horizon 2015/2016.
In other words, the French clubs haven't changed their position at all: they will not participate in any tournament that doesn't have the English in it. It's what they've been saying all along.
En l’état actuel des choses, une avancée a été trouvée : à savoir la participation à la H Cup, avec deux réserves : que les clubs anglais acceptent d’y participer, et que la FFR appuie la LNR dans la création d’une nouvelle entité, qui ne sera plus l’ERC, et ce à l’horizon 2015/2016.
In other words, the French clubs haven't changed their position at all: they will not participate in any tournament that doesn't have the English in it. It's what they've been saying all along.
In which case both the French and The English have boxed themselves into a corner for next season, from which there will be no escape without fairly serious compromises all round.,
Interview with Paul Goze, President of LNR:
Interviewer: Will the French clubs play next year in the European Cup, organised by ERC?
Goze: They might play in the ERC competition provided that the agreements are finally settled and that the competition takes place with the English clubs.
Interviewer: What will be the position of the French clubs if English clubs do not compete in the European Cup next year?
Goze: If the English clubs do not play in the European competition then another meeting will be organised. And then we will put again the question of the participation of the French clubs.
Interviewer: With increased power for the leagues?
Goze: The commercial part, i.e. marketing, TV, will be managed by the participants, so the leagues. But the unions will be on board with us. And if it does not happen you can conclude that there will be no competition.
And Goze concludes:
We reserve the right not to do it [the European Cup] if the English do not come.
So it's all smoke-and-mirrors. In reality, the only thing that has changed today is that the French clubs have accepted that they can't play in the RCC - but, as they've said all along, they will play in no competition without the English.
Portly female not even in the building yet.
Interviewer: Will the French clubs play next year in the European Cup, organised by ERC?
Goze: They might play in the ERC competition provided that the agreements are finally settled and that the competition takes place with the English clubs.
Interviewer: What will be the position of the French clubs if English clubs do not compete in the European Cup next year?
Goze: If the English clubs do not play in the European competition then another meeting will be organised. And then we will put again the question of the participation of the French clubs.
Interviewer: With increased power for the leagues?
Goze: The commercial part, i.e. marketing, TV, will be managed by the participants, so the leagues. But the unions will be on board with us. And if it does not happen you can conclude that there will be no competition.
And Goze concludes:
We reserve the right not to do it [the European Cup] if the English do not come.
So it's all smoke-and-mirrors. In reality, the only thing that has changed today is that the French clubs have accepted that they can't play in the RCC - but, as they've said all along, they will play in no competition without the English.
Portly female not even in the building yet.
In common with a goodly number on these boards, I really hope we have nothing ever again to do with ERC. If that means staying out of Europe for a season then so be it.
That seems to be an (almost) universal theme on all Premiership supporter sites.
Nearly every comment on the subject that I have read concludes that no European rugby for a year or two is preferable to the HEC as it is formulated.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Nearly every comment on the subject that I have read concludes that no European rugby for a year or two is preferable to the HEC as it is formulated.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face!. We need European rugby as do our sponsors. I live in hope that common sense will prevail
We once had a subsidiary who sold their products at a loss. When challenged on how they were going to rectify the situation, the CEO said that he planned to increase sales.
Doing what you did in the past, without searching for better solutions, is not always the best strategy.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:07:49:54 by Convex Hull.
Doing what you did in the past, without searching for better solutions, is not always the best strategy.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:07:49:54 by Convex Hull.
Anglo-Bokke cup for 2014-2015 will be fine, with the French joining the year after and the rest if they want.
What disappoints, but does not surprise me, about this whole tawdry situation is the way Premiership Rugby (in other words the English) have again been royally shafted by celtics & french.
OK, so as I write, it seems french clubs may have said that they will only play in the ERC tourny next year if the English do and that there also has to be a change in management structure in a year's time.
BUT, if the English clubs categorically refuse to play in the ERC tourny next year do YOU really believe the french will stay out of it?
Also, saying they (the french) want a change in management in a year's time is bogus. It is clear that celtics don't want to dissolve the ERC so it is just dumb of the french to believe in a year's time they will get their wish.
I also read this morning that the English clubs may now consider re-joining the ERC tourny.
Whatever happened to the saying I Say What I Mean and I Mean What I Say ?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:10:39:02 by CK55FEZ.
OK, so as I write, it seems french clubs may have said that they will only play in the ERC tourny next year if the English do and that there also has to be a change in management structure in a year's time.
BUT, if the English clubs categorically refuse to play in the ERC tourny next year do YOU really believe the french will stay out of it?
Also, saying they (the french) want a change in management in a year's time is bogus. It is clear that celtics don't want to dissolve the ERC so it is just dumb of the french to believe in a year's time they will get their wish.
I also read this morning that the English clubs may now consider re-joining the ERC tourny.
Whatever happened to the saying I Say What I Mean and I Mean What I Say ?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:10:39:02 by CK55FEZ.
McCafferty now being reported as not ruling out premiership involvement next year. Tone down the rhetoric and if some face saving compromise can be reached for all involved embrace it. Easier to change from within than rely on assistance from our reliable French allies next year!. As for all the stuff about us being better off and the others withering on a dodgy French vine I'm not so sure. The Irish and French appear to have crowds which rival and in some cases exceed ours regularly. You can rest assured that SKY have offered assurances to them, illustrated by our French shafting and the ease with which everyone but the Welsh held their ground.
[www.espn.co.uk]
PRL backing down a bit, but still insist the Heino will be run by a new body, not the ERC, for 2015-2016 onwards
PRL backing down a bit, but still insist the Heino will be run by a new body, not the ERC, for 2015-2016 onwards
The intriguing bit for me is the silence from Regional Rugby Wales. Although the WRU has sided with the ERC status quo, RRW's lack of noise says to me that they are sitting on the fence until one faction or the other wins.
RRW stands to make more money from a BT-Funded, club-run Rugby Champions Cup, than it does from the reduced slice of the ERC cake it will have to accept. Plus, there is the added incentive of the four regions joining an expanded Premiership, with the extra fixtures being played in the LV= Cup slots.
It's all a bit circular:
PRL - No ERC or no participation in the HCup
LNR - No English clubs = no participation
ERC - Has to destroy itself, if not next season, certainly by June 2015 for PRL to join in.
The unions - of course, they will go with the status quo as they don't run the show and will see the clubs running it instead as a threat.
RFU - I think they're keepming scthum to keep the clubs and the EPS agreement onside. Although we know Ian Ritchie has been doing a bit of shuttle diplomacy.
BSkyB - They will want a full participateion from 6 countries, but are joined at the hip to ERC. As the incumbent they have something to lose if the English teams sit out next year's tournament.
BT - probably hopping (no pun intended) mad over it all as PRL could well have promised them cross-border rugby to show.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
RRW stands to make more money from a BT-Funded, club-run Rugby Champions Cup, than it does from the reduced slice of the ERC cake it will have to accept. Plus, there is the added incentive of the four regions joining an expanded Premiership, with the extra fixtures being played in the LV= Cup slots.
It's all a bit circular:
PRL - No ERC or no participation in the HCup
LNR - No English clubs = no participation
ERC - Has to destroy itself, if not next season, certainly by June 2015 for PRL to join in.
The unions - of course, they will go with the status quo as they don't run the show and will see the clubs running it instead as a threat.
RFU - I think they're keepming scthum to keep the clubs and the EPS agreement onside. Although we know Ian Ritchie has been doing a bit of shuttle diplomacy.
BSkyB - They will want a full participateion from 6 countries, but are joined at the hip to ERC. As the incumbent they have something to lose if the English teams sit out next year's tournament.
BT - probably hopping (no pun intended) mad over it all as PRL could well have promised them cross-border rugby to show.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Goze has told L'Equipe that if the unions don't agree to a new governance structure where the clubs control the marketing and TV then there will be no tournament in September 2014.
U-turn? What U-turn?
U-turn? What U-turn?
I know it's difficult to polish a t--- but really guys,pouring sprinkles over it won't change it. The French have done what they always do and looked after themselves. It may not be a 180 but its as close as makes no difference. I have no doubt our Welsh brethren are on board also. Hopefully all this wall @#$%& will end with some face saving jesters for all ensuring we play European rugby.
Pablo, you could try reading what the people involved actually say. Unless and until you do you are the one indulging in wishful thinking. See L'Equipe for Goze' latest comments. If you don't read French then Google Chrome will do a half-assed job of translating it for you.
It might be a bit in the translation, but I understood what the french said is that they will only play if the English clubs are accepted into the new tournament. I.e. if they are invited to play but say no, the French would still play.
Quote:primavesi
It might be a bit in the translation, but I understood what the french said is that they will only play if the English clubs are accepted into the new tournament. I.e. if they are invited to play but say no, the French would still play.
No, that isn't what they said. They are saying this:
Their agreement to participate has two conditions:
(i) that the English choose to participate and
(ii) the unions agree the new governance arrangements for 2015/2016.
If the English choose not to play, the French clubs' agreement is off and they will look at it again to decide what to do.
If the unions don't agree the new governance arrangements then that's it, no tournament in 2014.
It's all in these interviews with Goze:
L'Equipe
Rugbyrama
Maybe he's lying through his teeth, I wouldn't know, but unless proven then what he says is all we've got to go on.
Sorry Shhh, It's clear at the moment to everyone but the dilussional that we alone will be without meaningful European competition next season, as it currently stands. The French will play no matter what. Primavesi, I believe you have translated it correctly. Has anyone heard from Nige ?. I hope he's furiously sorting something with McCafferty et al which will give Rugby fans what we want, a merit based fair to all competition.
Quote:Pablo1632
Sorry Shhh, It's clear at the moment to everyone but the dilussional that we alone will be without meaningful European competition next season, as it currently stands.
Really? You speak for everyone do you? That's a remarkable power you have there. Woodford Dave often claims the same mandate.
It's "delusional" BTW.
Quote:Pablo1632
The French will play no matter what. Primavesi, I believe you have translated it correctly.
Clearly you can read neither French nor the (often risible) Google translation.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:13:43:05 by Shhh!.
Wasn't that long ago that you were pontificating about the only show in town being the RCC and that everyone would have to follow us, WRONG. You deliver more spin than Alistair Campbell. What is certain, there will be a Heineken cup next season which will hopefully include Sarries.
If I get something wrong I'm happy to admit it. Clearly humility is not part of your make up. Can't claim to be as fluent as you appear to be but capable of reading the numerous publications who dare to have an opinion different from you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:14:04:21 by Pablo1632.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:14:04:21 by Pablo1632.
Hard luck, anyone who claims to speak for "everyone" forfeits all credibility.
If what the parties are sayin can be taken at face value - and there's a long way to go before we know that - then the HC is (in its present form) dead. There may be one season's death rattle, but after that, new organisation, new format, maybe a new name. If that happens, then that's a win for the English and French clubs.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Lets agree to differ and if the French fall in behind us resulting in no tournament next season I will agree to eat humble pie. Can you say the same if there is a Heineken Cup with or without English participation?. Btw I stated everyone but the delusional which you generously helped me spell correctly .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:14:16:28 by Pablo1632.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:11:29:14:16:28 by Pablo1632.
Quote:Pablo1632
Lets agree to differ and if the French fall in behind us resulting in no tournament next season I will agree to eat humble pie. Can you say the same if there is a Heineken Cup with or without English participation?. Btw I stated everyone but the delusional which you generously helped me spell correctly .
Only if it's not a one season "interim" HC, as I explained above. if the HC continues into the future run by ERC then the English clubs will have been shafted by the French, and that's not happened yet.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Lets hope it is dead in its present format and that a merit based, fiscally fair tournament rises from the ashes. I think that's all anyone wanted from the start.
Quote:AP
If what the parties are sayin can be taken at face value - and there's a long way to go before we know that - then the HC is (in its present form) dead. There may be one season's death rattle, but after that, new organisation, new format, maybe a new name. If that happens, then that's a win[color=#FF0000][/color] for the English and French clubs.
This is the problem with the whole thing. When you negotiate and each party takes an entrenched position then you can only get a result where there are winners and losers. The problem with that is the loser is never happy and they store up the resentment untill they can get even.
The better way to do things is to look at what is driving all the parties involves and work together on finding a solution. The PRL and LNR were right to issue the notice to pull out but where it went drastically wrong is when they dug themselves in to a position with the BT deal where it is difficult for them to move.
It is all a mess and the biggest losers are the fans. I want to see the top teams in European rugby playing each other and a small number of intransigent gits are getting in the way.
Fireworks - when the English and French announced that they were to withdraw, 18 months ago, it was because pleading by said parties to discuss went unnoticed or ignored by ERC for years. That the ERC sought to finally react 2 onths ago says more about ERC than a few CEOs that have been trying to talk for years.
We all want to see each other's teams playing in a european competition but it is the refusal of the ERC to discuss this historically that has dragged it this far out to sea and there seems to be collective denial by many of the advocates of the ERC that are part of the problem.
We all want to see each other's teams playing in a european competition but it is the refusal of the ERC to discuss this historically that has dragged it this far out to sea and there seems to be collective denial by many of the advocates of the ERC that are part of the problem.
Spot on, BQ.
Much as I like the HC, if we don't get what we are seeking, we really should sit it out for a year (if we can afford to of course!).
I very much hope that the days of funding the Irish provinces are numbered.
Much as I like the HC, if we don't get what we are seeking, we really should sit it out for a year (if we can afford to of course!).
I very much hope that the days of funding the Irish provinces are numbered.
Be interesting to see if the English Clubs maintain their united stance, sure the clubs with deep pockets could withstand a season with no European Rugby, but will the smaller ones survive without the income and all the additional costs involved with flying to South Africa to compete, read somewhere that its fairly evenly divided between six clubs who want to slug it out and six that want compromise.
Quote:Pablo1632
Btw I stated everyone but the delusional which you generously helped me spell correctly .
Can you not see how spectacularly arrogant it is to claim that everyone who disagrees with you is delusional? No, I suppose you can't, that would be consistent with spectacular arrogance.
Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. You are probably one of the most egotistical arrogant people I have ever come across . I note you spend as much time spewing the gospel according to Shhh across several other boards. Keep on spinning it won't make it come true. Are you even a Sarries supporter ? Anyway have the last word as I now bow to your superior knowledge and am just bored with you. Looking forward to a big Sarries win tomorrow with real supporters!
I think it may be wise until we hear from Mr Wray, I feel he and the others such as Saints & Tigers are a bit like Maggie; Not for turning.
There were always three possible outcomes:
- ERC crumbles (25%?)
- Anglo-French clubs crumble (25%?)
- compromise (50%?)
Compromise breaks down into winning and losing compromises, not really stand off.
If (big if) the reports are right, this is a winning compromise for the Anglo-French clubs - one more season of ERC HC, then a new, club-run competition.
If that's correct, then I don't see any English clubs being unhappy.
The question will be where the contractual fallout with Sky and BT lies, and that's probably been addressed in the contracts.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
- ERC crumbles (25%?)
- Anglo-French clubs crumble (25%?)
- compromise (50%?)
Compromise breaks down into winning and losing compromises, not really stand off.
If (big if) the reports are right, this is a winning compromise for the Anglo-French clubs - one more season of ERC HC, then a new, club-run competition.
If that's correct, then I don't see any English clubs being unhappy.
The question will be where the contractual fallout with Sky and BT lies, and that's probably been addressed in the contracts.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Be interesting to see if Nigel, can carry the rest of the Prem with him, given lack of European competition might bankrupt a few clubs, my gut feeling is still that a compromise will be found, the world won't end if the start of the new era is put back by a season
Its not the ERC's fault that the PRL negotiated with BT without any discussion with other interested parties. That's what created the stand-off. The 'celtic' countries have long conceded the need for a more competitive qualification process but, as any organisation is likely to do, are unlikely to give in easily to demand tactics. A mediation process was proposed and created but the PRL decided it was beneath them to attend. A massive tactical mistake as the problems with the French was foreseeable to all but the English owners, Wray included.
If any organisation should be reprimanded its the PRL not the ERC.
If any organisation should be reprimanded its the PRL not the ERC.
The BT deal would have resulted in all competing nations receiving more money. The ERC proposal will, according to the reports that I have read, result in the Italians and Scots receiving a lot less, with only the French better off.
That is, of course, before SKY and Heineken claw back a big chunk of their money due to the absence of the English spectators. When that happens, the Celtic nations will all be substantially worse off than they are now and the number of Celtic & Italian players in the French league will increase.
How the PRL funds the clubs in their domestic league is no business of the ERC, and if the Celtic countries acknowledged that the current arrangements were unfair, why did they sit on their hands for years?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
That is, of course, before SKY and Heineken claw back a big chunk of their money due to the absence of the English spectators. When that happens, the Celtic nations will all be substantially worse off than they are now and the number of Celtic & Italian players in the French league will increase.
How the PRL funds the clubs in their domestic league is no business of the ERC, and if the Celtic countries acknowledged that the current arrangements were unfair, why did they sit on their hands for years?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Eif, that is a horribly one-sided view. The pure fact is the ERC did nothing over the last 20 months since the French and English handed in their notice.
What were PRL and LNR supposed to do after this, nothing?
Blatantly one sided view.
What were PRL and LNR supposed to do after this, nothing?
Blatantly one sided view.
Quote:ChrisR
Eif, that is a horribly one-sided view. The pure fact is the ERC did nothing over the last 20 months since the French and English handed in their notice.
What were PRL and LNR supposed to do after this, nothing?
Blatantly one sided view.
Give him his due, he's been consistent!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Quote:Eif Jones
Its not the PRL's fault that the ERC negotiated with SKY without any discussion with other interested parties. That's what created the stand-off. The 'celtic' countries have at long last conceded the need for a more competitive qualification process but, as any organisation is likely to do, are unlikely to give in until they have no other option. A mediation process was proposed and created but the PRL decided it was way to late to attend. A massive tactical mistake by the ERC to leave it so late.
If any organisation should be reprimanded its the ERC not the PRL.
There you go Eif, fixed a few errors for you
Quote:ChrisR
Eif, that is a horribly one-sided view. The pure fact is the ERC did nothing over the last 20 months since the French and English handed in their notice.
What were PRL and LNR supposed to do after this, nothing?
Blatantly one sided view.
Could it possibly be that the Unions had the PRL card well marked, and knew what the real PRL agenda was ?
Quote:
He's an embarrassment at this stage. Is there any one left in Sarries with the moral compass to see this buffoon for what he is ?
On a free vote, 30 out of 38 clubs and regions would have signed up to the Rugby Champions Cup. It was the Axis Unions that used coercion not PRL. That says a lot to me.
The FFR gave notice to leave the ERC. The FFR changed its position. PRL have been entirely consistent throughout.
Nigel Wray's position is entirely honourable. The only logical and consistent course of action is for the English clubs to stay out of any European competition until the Clubs and regions are able to negotiate commercial deals without interference from their respective Unions.
The FFR gave notice to leave the ERC. The FFR changed its position. PRL have been entirely consistent throughout.
Nigel Wray's position is entirely honourable. The only logical and consistent course of action is for the English clubs to stay out of any European competition until the Clubs and regions are able to negotiate commercial deals without interference from their respective Unions.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
...and, if that does come to pass, the French won't take it seriously, even if they do compete for the bribe.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:01:03:00:50 by Convex Hull.
...and, if that does come to pass, the French won't take it seriously, even if they do compete for the bribe.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:01:03:00:50 by Convex Hull.
Quote:CorkoQuote:
He's an embarrassment at this stage. Is there any one left in Sarries with the moral compass to see this buffoon for what he is ?
What we see is a man who has supported this club for 18 years with millions of his own money, effectively subsidising our season tickets for all that time and bringing some of the world's finest rugby players to an unfashionable club in some obscure corners of north London, and whose most recent act of generosity and commitment was to put up another £10M of his own money to build our new stadium.
And what do you have in comparison? A rigged system of franchises run by a bunch of port-sodden, self-serving, amateur blazers with their warty hands in everyone's pockets but their own.
So when it comes to Nigel wanting to remove those blazers' leprous paws from his pockets, you'll find very few around here who will not give him their unqualified support.
The Welsh dilemma (from the grauniad):
The uncertainty is not what the four Welsh regions wanted to hear. They have until the end of the month to sign a new four-year participation agreement with their union. The offer is for a roll-on deal that does not include an increase in the £6.2m they receive, apart from an annual inflation-linked rise.
"If we sign and nothing happens in Europe, we will have condemned our businesses," one regional administrator said. "If we do not sign, our money will stop in June and we would not have the means to pay our players. Europe is the key to this, but no one seems to know what is going on."
Don't forget the nuclear option fella. You'd be very welcome in the Premiership.
The uncertainty is not what the four Welsh regions wanted to hear. They have until the end of the month to sign a new four-year participation agreement with their union. The offer is for a roll-on deal that does not include an increase in the £6.2m they receive, apart from an annual inflation-linked rise.
"If we sign and nothing happens in Europe, we will have condemned our businesses," one regional administrator said. "If we do not sign, our money will stop in June and we would not have the means to pay our players. Europe is the key to this, but no one seems to know what is going on."
Don't forget the nuclear option fella. You'd be very welcome in the Premiership.
Would the welsh union remove funding for the regions if they join the English league? If so, why?
Quote:Trev's Big Tackle
Would the welsh union remove funding for the regions if they join the English league? If so, why?
Why would the Welsh regions join the premiership? Because they are sick to the back teeth of the WRU taking their money and then under-funding them to the extent that they are just becoming feeder clubs for the Top 14. They are sick to the back teeth of playing in a meaningless league that hardly anyone in Wales gives a toss about, and yet still being hopelessly uncompetitive in Europe. And because ultimately they will be better funded and better supported in a proper league where ancient rivalries will ensure keenly-fought and passionately-supported fixtures.
can't see welsh sides joining the premiership unless relegation is got rid of,
for example dragons would probably be strong favourites for relegation if they joined
for example dragons would probably be strong favourites for relegation if they joined
Quote:at-sarrie
can't see welsh sides joining the premiership unless relegation is got rid of,
for example dragons would probably be strong favourites for relegation if they joined
Certainly it wouldn't be easy to bring about, that's just one amongst a raft of huge obstacles.
You never know, if the Welsh had a meaningful league to play in every week, then they might get round to beating Australia at some point
certainly the premiership would toughen up,
with the threat of relegation and not having heineken cup rugby virtually guaranteed
with the threat of relegation and not having heineken cup rugby virtually guaranteed
Quote:Shhh!
The Welsh dilemma (from the grauniad):
edited:
"If we sign and nothing happens in Europe, we will have condemned our businesses," one regional administrator said. "If we do not sign, our money will stop in June and we would not have the means to pay our players. Europe is the key to this, but no one seems to know what is going on."
Would the WRU really turn off the £tap to the Welsh regions?
If a region could not pay players wages then the region could possibly been in breach of a player's employment contract. Breach off contract could lead to players walking away from the regions unencumbered and free to negotiate a new employment contract with anyone.
Would the WRU really risk that?
Quote:CorkoQuote:
He's an embarrassment at this stage. Is there any one left in Sarries with the moral compass to see this buffoon for what he is ?
I'm not a Sarries supporter, but I do recognise someone who puts his heart & soul (and money) into a sport he loves, and what is more, he says what he means and means what he says. A man who sticks by his principles.
Quote:Shhh!Quote:Trev's Big Tackle
Would the welsh union remove funding for the regions if they join the English league? If so, why?
Why would the Welsh regions join the premiership? Because they are sick to the back teeth of the WRU taking their money and then under-funding them to the extent that they are just becoming feeder clubs for the Top 14. They are sick to the back teeth of playing in a meaningless league that hardly anyone in Wales gives a toss about, and yet still being hopelessly uncompetitive in Europe. And because ultimately they will be better funded and better supported in a proper league where ancient rivalries will ensure keenly-fought and passionately-supported fixtures.
Not really addressed my question there.
The English clubs get funding from the RFU - would that be extended to the Welsh clubs if they are cut off from the WRU? I doubt it so would the welsh regions really be better funded in an english prem without any union funding?
But my question is why would the welsh union cut funding? Does it matter to the union whether the welsh teams play in a combined Irish, Scot, Italian, Welsh league rather than a combined English, Welsh league?
Quote:CorkoQuote:
He's an embarrassment at this stage. Is there any one left in Sarries with the moral compass to see this buffoon for what he is ?
It's always odd when people talk about themselves in the third person, isn't it?
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
Quote:Shhh!Quote:CorkoQuote:
He's an embarrassment at this stage. Is there any one left in Sarries with the moral compass to see this buffoon for what he is ?
What we see is a man who has supported this club for 18 years with millions of his own money, effectively subsidising our season tickets for all that time and bringing some of the world's finest rugby players to an unfashionable club in some obscure corners of north London, and whose most recent act of generosity and commitment was to put up another £10M of his own money to build our new stadium.
And what do you have in comparison? A rigged system of franchises run by a bunch of port-sodden, self-serving, amateur blazers with their warty hands in everyone's pockets but their own.
So when it comes to Nigel wanting to remove those blazers' leprous paws from his pockets, you'll find very few around here who will not give him their unqualified support.
Get off the stage ! He's playing the long game by building London Saffers, he and his cronies are after the control of the game (which Paul Ackford's article today lays it all out for even the slow amongst you !), and then they control where the TV money goes. That's when he gets payback.
Wray couldn't give a toss about the Welsh or anyone else, he'll bully and abuse to get his way. Not the sort that Rugby Union should be tolerating.
Quote:Trev's Big TackleQuote:Shhh!Quote:Trev's Big Tackle
Would the welsh union remove funding for the regions if they join the English league? If so, why?
Why would the Welsh regions join the premiership? Because they are sick to the back teeth of the WRU taking their money and then under-funding them to the extent that they are just becoming feeder clubs for the Top 14. They are sick to the back teeth of playing in a meaningless league that hardly anyone in Wales gives a toss about, and yet still being hopelessly uncompetitive in Europe. And because ultimately they will be better funded and better supported in a proper league where ancient rivalries will ensure keenly-fought and passionately-supported fixtures.
Not really addressed my question there.
The English clubs get funding from the RFU - would that be extended to the Welsh clubs if they are cut off from the WRU? I doubt it so would the welsh regions really be better funded in an english prem without any union funding?
But my question is why would the welsh union cut funding? Does it matter to the union whether the welsh teams play in a combined Irish, Scot, Italian, Welsh league rather than a combined English, Welsh league?
They'd cut funding because they could then start from scratch and create WRU funded teams in the Rabo who want to be there, in the same successful model as the IRFU.
Your insight into a man you've never met and about whom you clearly know the square root of **** all is truly breathtaking.
Still, now that you have revealed yourself as nothing but a fantasist motivated by pure prejudice we can all now ignore you and you bitter, hate-filled ravings.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:01:17:31:02 by Shhh!.
Still, now that you have revealed yourself as nothing but a fantasist motivated by pure prejudice we can all now ignore you and you bitter, hate-filled ravings.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:01:17:31:02 by Shhh!.
London Saffers - what the hell is he prattling on about. It's a bit behind the times as a confrontational accusation which just rolls off the back. Pleeese don't quote that old out of date hack Ackford at us - he should have retired some time ago, together with his jaundiced view.
Quote:Corko
Get off the stage ! He's playing the long game by building London Saffers, he and his cronies are after the control of the game (which Paul Ackford's article today lays it all out for even the slow amongst you !), and then they control where the TV money goes. That's when he gets payback.
Wray couldn't give a toss about the Welsh or anyone else, he'll bully and abuse to get his way. Not the sort that Rugby Union should be tolerating.
Quote:CorkoQuote:Shhh!Quote:CorkoQuote:
He's an embarrassment at this stage. Is there any one left in Sarries with the moral compass to see this buffoon for what he is ?
What we see is a man who has supported this club for 18 years with millions of his own money, effectively subsidising our season tickets for all that time and bringing some of the world's finest rugby players to an unfashionable club in some obscure corners of north London, and whose most recent act of generosity and commitment was to put up another £10M of his own money to build our new stadium.
And what do you have in comparison? A rigged system of franchises run by a bunch of port-sodden, self-serving, amateur blazers with their warty hands in everyone's pockets but their own.
So when it comes to Nigel wanting to remove those blazers' leprous paws from his pockets, you'll find very few around here who will not give him their unqualified support.
Get off the stage ! He's playing the long game by building London Saffers, he and his cronies are after the control of the game (which Paul Ackford's article today lays it all out for even the slow amongst you !), and then they control where the TV money goes. That's when he gets payback.
Wray couldn't give a toss about the Welsh or anyone else, he'll bully and abuse to get his way. Not the sort that Rugby Union should be tolerating.
You really haven't got a clue, have you?
Wray is 65 and has enough cash for him, and his family, to sail off into the sunset without ever caring about a 'payback' on Saracens of a few million at some unspecified period in the future.
If he wanted to generate additional wealth, he knows far better ways to do it than playing around with a business that has the same turnover as a small branch of Waitrose.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Convex Hull
If he wanted to generate additional wealth, he knows far better ways to do it than playing around with a business that has the same turnover as a small branch of Waitrose.
Indeed. I'm sure Nigel understands perfectly well that the only way to get rich out of rugby is to get your snout in the trough at ERC, the IRB or the IRFU.
Former RFU chief calls for McCafferty to quit
December 2, 2013
Former RFU chairman Martyn Thomas has said it is time for Premiership Rugby's chief executive Mark McCafferty to stand down.
"The practical reality is that McCafferty has led the Premiership into the wilderness," Thomas told the Rugby Paper. "Now he's either got to lead them back from the wilderness, or they've got to find someone else to do it.
"CEOs have to move on, and just as it was right for Francis Baron to move on from the RFU, it's time for Mark to move on. He's been there since 2005, and it probably needs a change of personnel so they can rebuild."
Thomas warned the planned breakaway competition was a doubtful starter when it was first launched and questioned "how could they have misjudged the French position so badly?" adding: "The leadership of Premiership Rugby has got to answer some questions. If they feel ERC and the RFU are dysfunctional, they also stand accused of the same failings."
December 2, 2013
Former RFU chairman Martyn Thomas has said it is time for Premiership Rugby's chief executive Mark McCafferty to stand down.
"The practical reality is that McCafferty has led the Premiership into the wilderness," Thomas told the Rugby Paper. "Now he's either got to lead them back from the wilderness, or they've got to find someone else to do it.
"CEOs have to move on, and just as it was right for Francis Baron to move on from the RFU, it's time for Mark to move on. He's been there since 2005, and it probably needs a change of personnel so they can rebuild."
Thomas warned the planned breakaway competition was a doubtful starter when it was first launched and questioned "how could they have misjudged the French position so badly?" adding: "The leadership of Premiership Rugby has got to answer some questions. If they feel ERC and the RFU are dysfunctional, they also stand accused of the same failings."
Yes, Martyn Thomas really commands a lot of respect in English rugby...
Quote:saracens4life
Yes, Martyn Thomas really commands a lot of respect in English rugby...
Considering you badly you've been misled, perhaps he should be.
Is this the same Martyn Thomas that said this to BBC Radio Wales on the 13th September 2013?
But former Rugby Football Union chairman Martyn Thomas told Radio Wales that English clubs are tied in to the existing tournament for another year.
"There's a contractual obligation there that the RFU can enforce," he claimed.
"It not only provides that they will play in Europe to the end of the season 2014-2015, it also provides that they will play in no other professional competitions."
Who is misleading who?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:02:11:30:53 by CK55FEZ.
But former Rugby Football Union chairman Martyn Thomas told Radio Wales that English clubs are tied in to the existing tournament for another year.
"There's a contractual obligation there that the RFU can enforce," he claimed.
"It not only provides that they will play in Europe to the end of the season 2014-2015, it also provides that they will play in no other professional competitions."
Who is misleading who?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:02:11:30:53 by CK55FEZ.
this really is all getting very messy, none of the parties are going to come out of it well.
How many Sarries fans here attended games in Southgate?
Were any of you at the meeting at which Nigel Wray announced his plans for Saracens 18 odd years ago?
Were any of you at the meeting at which Nigel Wray announced his plans for Saracens 18 odd years ago?
I attended Southgate regularly back in those days, wasn't at the meeting but was around when it all kicked off
Ah yes, Martyn Thomas, another dinosaur of whom we were all heartily pleased to see his be-blazered back.
Quote:Myball
How many Sarries fans here attended games in Southgate?
Were any of you at the meeting at which Nigel Wray announced his plans for Saracens 18 odd years ago?
As a Saracens club member I was there at the packed clubhouse at Bramley Road when the proposal for an outside investor was put forward.
I cast my YES vote and it was one of the better decisions in my life.
Irish RFU loses 26 million euros trying to flog overpriced tickets.
Will now have to reduce the funding of all professional squads. Bye bye players.
And the Irish trolls wonder why PRL wants nothing to do with a tournament run by the unions.
Will now have to reduce the funding of all professional squads. Bye bye players.
And the Irish trolls wonder why PRL wants nothing to do with a tournament run by the unions.
I was also at Bramley Road the night Nigel was revealed as the mystery investor (actually he didn't really say anything himself as far as I remember). Probably the best thing that has happened to us - we'd still be the Sarries Amateurs at Bramley Road otherwise.
That news from IRFU is fairly grim, IMHO. They run at a loss now anyway and are borrowing money to avoid having to face the fact. If the situation on the current account is not better in five years' time, Irish rugby will be beyond saving.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
'tis what I've been saying all along. If the Celtic unions persist with the European status quo, with their rubbish Sky deal, and with the absence of the English and possibly the French making the tournament progressively less attractive, professional rugby will be dead in the Celtic nations a few years from now.
'tis their just desserts for predicating their entire existence on a rigged European tournament that simply can't continue in the same amateurish and biased way it has been run to date.
'tis their just desserts for predicating their entire existence on a rigged European tournament that simply can't continue in the same amateurish and biased way it has been run to date.
This isn't "new" news, it was published back in July, just makes their recent decisions even more daft.
Sssssh, brain washed by the PR spouted by the English media throughout this debacle. It is most certainly not a rubbish Sky deal, don't you have any loyalty to an organisation that has helped elevate the Heineken to the status it now has worldwide. If it was such rubbish, why did the English not put forward the BT possibility to the ERC rather than go behind backs to apparently sign a deal they were not authorised to sign, they didn't even inform their own RFU. Its time McCafferty considered his position having led the English clubs down a stupid road, aided and abetted by the club owners who should have known better. Having spare millions in their back pockets does not give them the authority to mess up European rugby.
There's an awful lot of after-timing on this thread. So the Heineken Cup is now the worst thing in the world is it? Not sure I remember so many people saying that over the years.
For what it's worth - my view is that I think it's a great competition, albeit that I don't think anyone ever thought it was perfect from a financial or corporate governance perspective. To which end, surely negotiation would have been a better route, rather than just picking up the PRL ball and running off with it?
For what it's worth - my view is that I think it's a great competition, albeit that I don't think anyone ever thought it was perfect from a financial or corporate governance perspective. To which end, surely negotiation would have been a better route, rather than just picking up the PRL ball and running off with it?
Rupes - that rather discounts the two years of notice PRL and LNR gave the ERC since announcing their intention (some year before BT "deal" struck and the numerous times that it had been bought up before (notably 2006) that discussions were sought but ERC refused to discuss or offer changes, as reported to us.
I think you're right that many thought and still think the competition (as games of rugby) is/was excellent, just that its governance and structure were "imbalanced"...
I think you're right that many thought and still think the competition (as games of rugby) is/was excellent, just that its governance and structure were "imbalanced"...
Many of us have been moaning for years about the biased and inequitable structure of it. Can't help it if Rupes didn't notice that.
@Shhh! - for years? Really?! LOL Regardless, do you think that the situation the English clubs now find themselves in is desirable and was the original intention? If the answer to both of those is no, then surely something has gone wrong somewhere with the process?
@Bolly-Quin - interesting point re the notice period. I just wonder if that nuclear option of saying we're not playing under these rules any more was the right way forward. IF everything was signed, sealed and delivered then possibly but, with hindsight, we now know that not to be the case. But I also agree 100% with your phrase "as reported to us".
@Bolly-Quin - interesting point re the notice period. I just wonder if that nuclear option of saying we're not playing under these rules any more was the right way forward. IF everything was signed, sealed and delivered then possibly but, with hindsight, we now know that not to be the case. But I also agree 100% with your phrase "as reported to us".
Quote:Rupes
@Shhh! - for years? Really?!
Yes, really. As I say, it can't be helped if you took no notice of the people complaining or if your memory is faulty.
And my memory is worse than your memory and so on and so on ad infinitum until bored...
...so much for reasoned debate.
...so much for reasoned debate.
Oh get off your high horse, what do you expect when you arrive here, for once in a blue moon, effectively calling people hypocrites and liars?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:03:08:31:03 by Shhh!.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:03:08:31:03 by Shhh!.
Not on any high horse, but this is good entertainment. As it is, I've got a shed load of work to do so must get on. Have a great relaxing day - good luck with posts for the next 24 hours 
Rupes why do you think most of the original posters here have given up?
Burning the Boards London Style
[images.google.co.uk]
Burning the Boards London Style
[images.google.co.uk]
So what exactly were PRL and LNR supposed to do. Since they were constanty outvoted the only option they had was to give notice to leave.
Eif is just funny, unfortunately not in a good way. What were they supposed to do after they handed in their notice, and ERC did nothing. Just sit around and not organise any tv rights and new competition?
ERC starting to negotiate after the fact, a full 12 months or more after the notice was given in, does not count as being pro-active.
The more I read from Celtic nation supporters, the more I want the English clubs to sit out of Europe for a year. The break will probably do our players the world of good.
Eif is just funny, unfortunately not in a good way. What were they supposed to do after they handed in their notice, and ERC did nothing. Just sit around and not organise any tv rights and new competition?
ERC starting to negotiate after the fact, a full 12 months or more after the notice was given in, does not count as being pro-active.
The more I read from Celtic nation supporters, the more I want the English clubs to sit out of Europe for a year. The break will probably do our players the world of good.
various reasons Bri, not sure I can get all the blame for that.
I'll get back into the box, don't worry.
I'll get back into the box, don't worry.
Not blaming you mate as you well know. Anyway back on topic.
I for one am getting the feeling we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. As a regular attendee on our European Travels I will miss these trips next year.
Please do not boycott but negotiate.
Burning the Boards London Style
[images.google.co.uk]
I for one am getting the feeling we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. As a regular attendee on our European Travels I will miss these trips next year.
Please do not boycott but negotiate.
Burning the Boards London Style
[images.google.co.uk]
Quote:Rupes
Not on any high horse, but this is good entertainment.
Right, so you're a troll.
Quote:BigBri
Oh dear oh dear
We have an equal number of biased posters who have swallowed too much spin on our board. The real fans who want to debate the merits are drowned by shouting.
I have been involved in many negotiations that were more difficult than this. The key was always to take the people out of the problem and focus on working together to fix the problem. You need to look at the reasons why both sides have taken their positions not the positions themselves. By looking at what you have in common you gradually remove problems until there are non left.
All sides in this got it wrong. The unions should have moved faster and the prl/lnr should not have gone nuclear.
Quote:FireworksQuote:BigBri
Oh dear oh dear
We have an equal number of biased posters who have swallowed too much spin on our board. The real fans who want to debate the merits are drowned by shouting.
I have been involved in many negotiations that were more difficult than this. The key was always to take the people out of the problem and focus on working together to fix the problem. You need to look at the reasons why both sides have taken their positions not the positions themselves. By looking at what you have in common you gradually remove problems until there are non left.
All sides in this got it wrong. The unions should have moved faster and the prl/lnr should not have gone nuclear.
At last a voice of common sense.
Burning the Boards London Style
[images.google.co.uk]
Quote:Rupes
There's an awful lot of after-timing on this thread. So the Heineken Cup is now the worst thing in the world is it? Not sure I remember so many people saying that over the years.
For what it's worth - my view is that I think it's a great competition, albeit that I don't think anyone ever thought it was perfect from a financial or corporate governance perspective. To which end, surely negotiation would have been a better route, rather than just picking up the PRL ball and running off with it?
Great competition with flaws in the structure and running of it sufficient to make it, eventually, imperative to change it, and worth losing it for a year to get those changes if that's what it takes, IMHO.
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
The danger is Tiger Geezer that if you go down the nuclear route of having no European Competition for a couple of years, the loss of income will mean teams going bankrupt not just the Irish who everyone seems to want to go bankrupt, but some of the less well off English Clubs too, in two years time there might not be enough teams left to make up a meaningful European competition.
As the "Less well off" English clubs tend to be in the Amlin anyway they are stuffed either way.
As for the HC money? well it was not all that much. We are reported to have more than made up for that from the current BT deal.
As for the gate revenue, well it will depend what fills the gap. An increased premiership would give much bigger gates than most Amlin (and some HC) games.
As for the HC money? well it was not all that much. We are reported to have more than made up for that from the current BT deal.
As for the gate revenue, well it will depend what fills the gap. An increased premiership would give much bigger gates than most Amlin (and some HC) games.
Quote:Eif Jones
abridge by CK:- .......................It is most certainly not a rubbish Sky deal, don't you have any loyalty to an organisation that has helped elevate the Heineken to the status it now has worldwide.................
loyalty to who? Sky or ERC?
DuckonStilts
Its starting to look to me that the game of Rugby Union is stuffed either way. Certainly as we have known it.
Its starting to look to me that the game of Rugby Union is stuffed either way. Certainly as we have known it.
Quote:WoodfordDave
The danger is Tiger Geezer that if you go down the nuclear route of having no European Competition for a couple of years, the loss of income will mean teams going bankrupt not just the Irish who everyone seems to want to go bankrupt, but some of the less well off English Clubs too, in two years time there might not be enough teams left to make up a meaningful European competition.
As an extremely biased poster I really do not want to see Leinster go bust or even to be weakened. Neither do I want to see any of the prl or other rabo teams going bankrupt. The game of rugby is only finding its feet in the professional era and it would be terrible if it was destroyed in its infancy by this messing.
As I have said before we have a lot in common and should build on that. The big danger to all of us is the top14 getting too big for anyone to compete with. One very left field suggestion was a merger of the prl and rabo. Not sure it is practical but as a hypothetical suggestion who do you think would make it in to the first division.
Quote:FireworksQuote:BigBri
Oh dear oh dear
We have an equal number of biased posters who have swallowed too much spin on our board. The real fans who want to debate the merits are drowned by shouting.
I have been involved in many negotiations that were more difficult than this. The key was always to take the people out of the problem and focus on working together to fix the problem. You need to look at the reasons why both sides have taken their positions not the positions themselves. By looking at what you have in common you gradually remove problems until there are non left.
All sides in this got it wrong. The unions should have moved faster and the prl/lnr should not have gone nuclear.
You could start by not calling it "gone nuclear". After years of being ignored while in ERC and over a year of being ignored after giving notice to quit ERC what do you think PRL should have done? Carried on talking to a brick wall or start banging their heads against it? ERC's intransigence left PRL nowhere to go but attempt to set up their own tournament.
Signing a TV deal which precludes you from playing before the notice period is up, is going nuclear, left themselves without any wriggle room now and doing it without having the French contractually signed up to joining you is verging on suicidal, as events have now proven. Its declaring UDI whilst having none of your partners on board, not even the French who are crucial to the success of whatever cup takes place
So you wait for the notice period to be up, before you start arranging a tv deal, yeah that sounds like great commercial sense. Especially when you don't know the details of the deal.
It may contain clauses which mean the English clubs can play some other form of competition next season, provided it is not run by the ERC. Anglo-Welsh friendlies for example.
It may contain clauses which mean the English clubs can play some other form of competition next season, provided it is not run by the ERC. Anglo-Welsh friendlies for example.
If PRL have no intention of playing in an ERC run tournament why would they be worried about a clause saying they cannot play in an ERC run tournament?
Quote:WoodfordDave
Signing a TV deal which precludes you from playing before the notice period is up, is going nuclear, left themselves without any wriggle room now and doing it without having the French contractually signed up to joining you is verging on suicidal, as events have now proven. Its declaring UDI whilst having none of your partners on board, not even the French who are crucial to the success of whatever cup takes place
[rugbylaw.blogspot.ie]
Have a look at this opinion. Believe it is from a barrister.
It would appear that the prl may be in hot water themselves with a 4 year BT deal when europe has already handed out fines for tv deals that are over 3 years.
Doubt it will make a difference considering it looks like next year will be missed. That makes it a three year deal
BT are not showing PRL teams in Europe this season so it would of course only be 3 years,The Premiership contract is 4 years but who knows how that is set up legally!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:04:11:35:57 by Ade43.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:04:11:35:57 by Ade43.
Surely the nub of this is that the PRL by signing the deal have committed the clubs from the other 5 nations to making a deal with BT , on the basis that if they don't the English Clubs can't and won't play in any new competition, let alone the existing one, what would Nigel be saying now if say the French Clubs had signed a deal with someone else committing the English to signing with someone else, without even asking them, kind of smacks of dictatorship, rather than sensible negotiation, surely you agree the nature or the new competition first before selling TV Rights to it, some may now I work as an agent in the Entertainment business, so I do know a bit about rights and TV deals, and the way this has been put together all seems a bit silly to me, the PRL might have got away with it had the French been on board, without them I can't see how they can get to a position where they can play in any European competition anytime soon, and I am not talking a season or two. The game just becomes a pawn in the war between BT and Sky to no ones benefit, lets be clear change had to come, the bias towards the RABO Clubs in the current set up is indefensible, just not at all convinced the English and French went about changing it the right way, and the French have finally woken up to that and bailed out, leaving the club game in the whole of Europe in a real mess. very sad.
Check out the facts before spouting off Dave. You have no idea what is in the contract and whether or not the definition of English European games just meant any cross border competition. Therefore the matches between the English and French would have been fine.
Really trying not to get drawn in to the various message board debates on this, but.....
Eif, how have Sky made the European Cup more popular? I remember attending sell-out finals when it was on the BBC and am fairly sure the highest TV viewing figures for a Club rugby game are still for Tigers vs Toulouse in the 1997 semi.
Who knows where the European Cup could have got to if ERC hadn't taken (and distributed poorly) Sky's deal?
Eif, how have Sky made the European Cup more popular? I remember attending sell-out finals when it was on the BBC and am fairly sure the highest TV viewing figures for a Club rugby game are still for Tigers vs Toulouse in the 1997 semi.
Who knows where the European Cup could have got to if ERC hadn't taken (and distributed poorly) Sky's deal?
Quote:FireworksQuote:WoodfordDave
Signing a TV deal which precludes you from playing before the notice period is up, is going nuclear, left themselves without any wriggle room now and doing it without having the French contractually signed up to joining you is verging on suicidal, as events have now proven. Its declaring UDI whilst having none of your partners on board, not even the French who are crucial to the success of whatever cup takes place
[rugbylaw.blogspot.ie]
Have a look at this opinion. Believe it is from a barrister.
It would appear that the prl may be in hot water themselves with a 4 year BT deal when europe has already handed out fines for tv deals that are over 3 years.
It would appears that -
That piece is liberally larded with get-outs for the author in case he's wrong. It's so qualified that it's no more than an opinion piece. It's certainly not (and to be fair, I doubt it was intended to be) a serious legal opinion.
Apparently.
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
Barristers and opinions, they all have one - just like ......
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Very true, WD. It would be a hard row to hoe indeed if you weren't entitled to a ringpiece.
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
You obviously filled in my dots, TG!
I do have cause to use solicitors and barristers from time to time.
I have yet to be told by a solicitor what is the best course of action in our business affairs. They normally list out all possible options, then all possible consequences - and all possible options arising from all possible consequences.
And so, like some tedious and arcane form of chess, it rumbles on until someone makes a decision.
In my experience barristers do exactly the same, but just charge a lot more.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I do have cause to use solicitors and barristers from time to time.
I have yet to be told by a solicitor what is the best course of action in our business affairs. They normally list out all possible options, then all possible consequences - and all possible options arising from all possible consequences.
And so, like some tedious and arcane form of chess, it rumbles on until someone makes a decision.
In my experience barristers do exactly the same, but just charge a lot more.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
The latest...Linky
Oh...the comment at the bottom is not me...just someone using a user name like mine!
SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:05:18:54:44 by 1876-Fez.
Oh...the comment at the bottom is not me...just someone using a user name like mine!
SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:05:18:54:44 by 1876-Fez.
This is like ping-pong with the English Channel as the net. What kind of shot will the Froggies return?
It will be interesting to hear the response from the French clubs now, will they stand firm and not take part if the English don't. I won't hold my breathe 
in the long term, its the best decision
potential for an expanded premiership or a world club championship is exciting
potential for an expanded premiership or a world club championship is exciting
First bit of integrity in this saga for quite some while now. Stand by what you say and what you mean it might hurt now but it will eventually come good.
The Taffs are getting heavy!
Welsh regions threaten legal action against WRU
Seems that the Heineken Cup may be dead after all. Can't see the Froggies wanting to stay in if it becomes a four-nation tournament (or, if they do, they really will treat it as a sideshow, sending academy teams and devaluing it so much that Sky will no longer be interested).
The Welsh could still hold the balance of power in all this, just as seemed to be the case when the RCC was announced.
One wonders if this leak, coming at the same time as the PRL announcement, is entirely coincidental?
Welsh regions threaten legal action against WRU
Seems that the Heineken Cup may be dead after all. Can't see the Froggies wanting to stay in if it becomes a four-nation tournament (or, if they do, they really will treat it as a sideshow, sending academy teams and devaluing it so much that Sky will no longer be interested).
The Welsh could still hold the balance of power in all this, just as seemed to be the case when the RCC was announced.
One wonders if this leak, coming at the same time as the PRL announcement, is entirely coincidental?
God forbid I should ever have thought that I'd be sorry for the Welsh, but the game in Wales seems to be falling apart at a rate of knots, shortsightedness from those who are meant to be looking after the interests of the game, they must get real and join the 21st century fast, or it will be curtains.
The position of PRL isn't helping them but it's not the root cause, just hastening things along. But like a lot of things in this world, the English will get the blame as usual.
The position of PRL isn't helping them but it's not the root cause, just hastening things along. But like a lot of things in this world, the English will get the blame as usual.
The English could prove to be the saviour of Welsh rugby.
Even a full Heineken Cup next season would've only delayed the inevitable. In the long run the Welsh need to be playing in a serious league, and there's only one of those available.
Irish professional rugby was OK so long as it had the rigged Heineken Cup to justify its existence. Without a serious Euro competition it is doomed.
Scottish and Italian pro rugby were doomed even before the HC died as a serious tournament.
The only way pro rugby outside of France, Wales and England can survive in the northern hemisphere is for Ireland, Scotland and Italy to get real and start talking seriously about a root-and-branch revamp of the entire structure of European rugby instead of trying to hang on to the doomed Heineken Cup - a sinking ship which will surely take them with it.
Even a full Heineken Cup next season would've only delayed the inevitable. In the long run the Welsh need to be playing in a serious league, and there's only one of those available.
Irish professional rugby was OK so long as it had the rigged Heineken Cup to justify its existence. Without a serious Euro competition it is doomed.
Scottish and Italian pro rugby were doomed even before the HC died as a serious tournament.
The only way pro rugby outside of France, Wales and England can survive in the northern hemisphere is for Ireland, Scotland and Italy to get real and start talking seriously about a root-and-branch revamp of the entire structure of European rugby instead of trying to hang on to the doomed Heineken Cup - a sinking ship which will surely take them with it.
This gets stormier than the weather. The Welsh clubs are losing the only assets that keep them in business, and the WRFU seems hell-bent on accelerating that process. Rabo Direct turns yet more obviously into a second-rate competition where every single club is on central life-support. The French clubs international exposure is in a second-tier European competition, with only the certainty that one or other club will win it every year.
What then happens when the prospect of a world club competition, not involving ERC-contracted nations, suddenly takes hold.
Would I rather be watching Sarries in a dying H-Cup or in a vibrant new world club championship? Would a single serious welsh, Irish or Scottish player want to stay on board at home for the former, or would the prospect of regularly measuring themselves against the best in the world appeal more? Would the French clubs still attract the quality of players they do now?
I hope the English clubs will tough this out.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
What then happens when the prospect of a world club competition, not involving ERC-contracted nations, suddenly takes hold.
Would I rather be watching Sarries in a dying H-Cup or in a vibrant new world club championship? Would a single serious welsh, Irish or Scottish player want to stay on board at home for the former, or would the prospect of regularly measuring themselves against the best in the world appeal more? Would the French clubs still attract the quality of players they do now?
I hope the English clubs will tough this out.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
agreed,
i think anyone on this board would be more excited by the prospect of playing the likes of the crusaders or the stormers rather than connacht or zebre,
i think anyone on this board would be more excited by the prospect of playing the likes of the crusaders or the stormers rather than connacht or zebre,
And which route would attract the TV money, which ultimately will decide what happens anyway?
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Stand by your principles, well done PRL. I doubt we can expect much support from the French but I hope we remember it when they want into our new tournament.
Quote:ChrisR
Stand by your principles, well done PRL. I doubt we can expect much support from the French but I hope we remember it when they want into our new tournament.
and the oft repeated story now quoted in BBC report.
BBC Quote: English and French clubs gave notice 17 months ago that they would leave and form a breakaway competition.
But last week French teams committed to the current tournament - as long as their English counterparts also did
For sure ChrisR, like you, I will be very interested if, having made the statement (that has been widely published) can the French really go back on their word.
I too am also glad that Premier League is toughing it out.
The PRL need to get real, the chance of any alternative is a big zero. It does surprise me that so many supporters of the English clubs are with the PRL on this, maybe they have been brainwashed by the media. If the English media had been more questioning of the PRL stance then it would have been harder for PRL to head down this cul-de-sac.
Mark McCafferty, Premiership Rugby chief executive, said: “There were no dissenting voices,” and he added: “The clubs in any case will be better off in 2014-2015 than they are in 2013-14 even without European competition so it is not an issue for the clubs.
More an open road than a cul-de-sac
More an open road than a cul-de-sac
Ironic from Eif in a week when we see the clearest evidence yet of total meltdown in Welsh rugby.
Quote:
a very interesting viewpoint worth a read.
I think he's saying what most of us have thought fro a long time, but his forecasts are pretyy dire. BUilt a great stadium but bet the house on it and the bet failed.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
That's a great article and encapsulates the problem. There must be a balance between club and National teams. A total focus on either one will destroy the other.
The success of Wales, Ireland, Italy & Scotland is not the responsibility of English & French club sides. A strong club base working in tandem with the relevant national body is the only way to deliver sustainable growth and success.
From the Cardiff article it appears that the 'regions' are effectively 'slaves' to the WRU - a situation that ultimately is unsustainable.
Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !
The success of Wales, Ireland, Italy & Scotland is not the responsibility of English & French club sides. A strong club base working in tandem with the relevant national body is the only way to deliver sustainable growth and success.
From the Cardiff article it appears that the 'regions' are effectively 'slaves' to the WRU - a situation that ultimately is unsustainable.
Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !
Got this from the Tiggers board: French TV last night reported that several major Top 14 clubs (Clermont, Toulouse, Racing, Stade Francais, perhaps more) are intending to follow PRL out of next season's HC Lite.
What with the Welsh seemingly moving closer to the Premiership this is all a long way from over and PRL may yet win out.
What with the Welsh seemingly moving closer to the Premiership this is all a long way from over and PRL may yet win out.
At last week's meeting of the French clubs Camus presented the French u-turn into next season's Heineken Cup as having been the result of a 'unanimous' vote amongst the clubs. In fact it was a 9-5 vote for, and it was noticeable that the 5 clubs were the 'biggies' ie the above 4 plus Biarritz (I think). Those 5 clubs must have been pretty irked by Camus' 'unanimous' comment hence the ensuing development.
I wonder what's going on behind the scenes at Sky?
I wonder what's going on behind the scenes at Sky?
The thing no-one has seemed to mention is that next season is a 20 team HC and no Amlin, so what are the rest of the teams doing on those weekends, twiddling their thumbs?
If alleged evidence emerges that the administrators are lying, not making errors but lying, you have to expect that anything the rest of us read or hear is as likely to be unreliable hearsay,conjecture or lies as it is to be the truth.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Quote:Innings
I think he's saying what most of us have thought fro a long time, but his forecasts are pretyy dire. BUilt a great stadium but bet the house on it and the bet failed.
I don't understand the WRU's strategy. Whether by design or by accident they're killing off the only clubs or regions in Wales with which fans in Wales can make any cultural or historical connotation with.
And when they're all dead and gone, then what are the WRU going to do? I really think they want to try and pull an IRFU and run a couple of WRU super-regions but then they've got the same problem where they'll still be competing with the so called "fifth region": the national team.
Roger Lewis and the WRU have done far more damage to club or regional rugby in Wales than Premiership Rugby ever had.
Quote:Innings
If alleged evidence emerges that the administrators are lying, not making errors but lying, you have to expect that anything the rest of us read or hear is as likely to be unreliable hearsay,conjecture or lies as it is to be the truth.
Well, Innings, Camus appears to have both lied and promised money he hasn't got.
Does Gordon Brown have any relatives in France?
On the Tigers board so it must be true. Some great games this weekend thus far and I for one will miss it next year.
Btw it's Tigers
Btw it's Tigers
No-one said it was true. Have you offered Nigel your piggy bank yet to help with funding Sarries if we stay in the HC on the same old dismal terms? No, I thought not.
BTW, it's Tiggers. "The wonderful thing about tiggers, is tiggers are wonderful things etc. etc."
BTW, it's Tiggers. "The wonderful thing about tiggers, is tiggers are wonderful things etc. etc."
grauniad
"Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the Rugby Football Union, is making another push to salvage a six-country European Cup for next season. He fears that some unions will go into financial meltdown if the English clubs find a permanent way of occupying the nine weekends taken up by the Heineken Cup."
grauniad again
"England have done a selfie – a self-exclusion – but instead of being jeered out of the door, as they were on those previous occasions, there is a feeling among some of those that must stay behind that they, too, would rather be heading for the exit and for the English alternative on the other side."
"The French clubs...will presumably be less than whole-hearted in the establishment's tournament that cages them. And the Welsh regions will be struggling to fill their squads with anyone other than children too young to vote and men too old for the Home Guard."
"Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the Rugby Football Union, is making another push to salvage a six-country European Cup for next season. He fears that some unions will go into financial meltdown if the English clubs find a permanent way of occupying the nine weekends taken up by the Heineken Cup."
grauniad again
"England have done a selfie – a self-exclusion – but instead of being jeered out of the door, as they were on those previous occasions, there is a feeling among some of those that must stay behind that they, too, would rather be heading for the exit and for the English alternative on the other side."
"The French clubs...will presumably be less than whole-hearted in the establishment's tournament that cages them. And the Welsh regions will be struggling to fill their squads with anyone other than children too young to vote and men too old for the Home Guard."
One of your better bits of research! Hope that something can be sorted as alas my piggy bank, as you correctly identified won't help. I think you have got me wrong as I respect Nigel's stance and concur that without him there probably would be no Sarries. Just hope he can find an acceptable solution that provides the humble fan with competitive European competition. Anyway let's win the last one.
Quote:Shhh!
BTW, it's Tiggers. "The wonderful thing about tiggers, is tiggers are wonderful things etc. etc."
Yes, it's a sad song, that.
The wonderful thing about Tiggers
Is Tiggers are really first class
Their forwards are largely uninjured
But their backs are made out of glass
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
Ian Richie might hopefully be the saviour of all this, his big asset is that he isn't a rugby man (note that there are no rugby women involved in this process, which doesn't help either) He comes from Tennis a far bigger sport worldwide, and is possibly the only man looking at the bigger picture, what he is saying here is a much more eloquent version or what I was saying yesterday, step up to the plate Mr Ritchie, good luck to you.
he's also responsible for some of the silly decisions in organising the world cup, isn't he?
e.g. not making an effort to make the game more popular in the north and the stupidity of putting england games on at 8:00
e.g. not making an effort to make the game more popular in the north and the stupidity of putting england games on at 8:00
What on Earth is stupid about putting England games on at 8-00 PM in the evening, this is prime time TV not rinky dinky Saturday afternoon stuff, helps with the time difference down under too, you would be bonkers to consider any other time slot
Quote:at-sarrie
he's also responsible for some of the silly decisions in organising the world cup, isn't he?
e.g. not making an effort to make the game more popular in the north and the stupidity of putting england games on at 8:00
To be fair they did want to stage games at the only stadium in the north to rival Twickenham in capacity (Old Trafford) but Manchester United refused. And, as stated above, the 8:00 p.m. kickoff is driven by telly which, however much we may dislike it, inevitably gets its way.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:08:13:10:30 by Shhh!.
Quote:Shhh!Quote:at-sarrie
he's also responsible for some of the silly decisions in organising the world cup, isn't he?
e.g. not making an effort to make the game more popular in the north and the stupidity of putting england games on at 8:00
To be fair they did want to stage games at the only stadium in the north to rival Twickenham in capacity (Old Trafford) but Manchester United refused. And, as stated above, the 8:00 p.m. kickoff is driven by telly which, however much we may dislike it, inevitably gets its way.
still having more games in wales than the north is pretty pathetic despite no old trafford,
i can understand 8:00 being good time for telly, but for someone who lives miles away from london and was hoping to go to a few england games its a bit annoying, a 5:00 kick off would have perhaps been a better option as is the case for the semi finals and final
Well done and thanks to Connaught ! That's why the Heineken cups great to watch!
It's great fun to watch, Pablo, I think we're all agreed on that.
However, I believe if you're an English or French club owner it's a lot less fun to fund the entire tournament.
However, I believe if you're an English or French club owner it's a lot less fun to fund the entire tournament.
Quote:Pablo1632
Well done and thanks to Connaught ! That's why the Heineken cups (sic) great to watch!
and when the new Euro Tourny is launched without the stranglehold of the ERC, the Rugby Champions Cup sponsored by Heineken will be even better to watch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:09:12:10:36 by CK55FEZ.
Quote:CK55FEZQuote:Pablo1632
Well done and thanks to Connaught ! That's why the Heineken cups great to watch!
and when the new Euro Tourny is launched without the stranglehold of the ERC, the European Champions Cup sponsored by Heineken will be even better to watch.
Blimey. Looks like the Froggies have got a bit ahead of themselves over their fab new TV deal for the Top 14 and are facing legal action from Canal+.
Canal+ attacks the league
Beyond me what all this might mean for European competition.
Canal+ attacks the league
Beyond me what all this might mean for European competition.
Quote:To Mega Therion
Here is an alternative view from Ireland.
Is "alternative view" a euphemism for "ignorant and ill-informed rant"?
No wonder the Irish trolls behave like they do if this is the tripe their media feeds them.
At first I thought the Irish article was a spoof....... it did make me laugh though, "one-eyed" hardly begins to describe it.
Quote:Shhh!
Blimey. Looks like the Froggies have got a bit ahead of themselves over their fab new TV deal for the Top 14 and are facing legal action from Canal+.
Canal+ attacks the league
Beyond me what all this might mean for European competition.
Forget about the current squabble. I would see this as good news for everyone else in Europe. If they get that extra money it could equate to about 3.5 million extra per team plus the 2m the FFR have promised. This gives each top14 team additional cash which adds up to more than your current salary cap and enough to buy an entire welsh team just for fun. Nobody could compete with that.
It is not just the HC I would worry about. There is talk of extending it to a top16. It could become a black hole sucking any quality players in to it. With that sort money there is nobody in the NH or SH that can compete.
I think the IRB has to start doing something. Salary caps have a place but I would like to see some type of quota on the number of foreign players any team can employ. Probably impossible to enforce but I do think it would help.
Quote:Beyond me what all this might mean for European competition.
'une merde noire' more or less sets out the current situation - with thanks to Le Parisien for expressing it so eloquently.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Can't help but feel it serves the French right... Double-edged swords and all that. Live by it, die by it, I don't know some analogy involving swords and dying...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:10:12:15:06 by ChrisR.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:10:12:15:06 by ChrisR.
Quote:Shhh!Quote:To Mega Therion
Here is an alternative view from Ireland.
Is "alternative view" a euphemism for "ignorant and ill-informed rant"?
No wonder the Irish trolls behave like they do if this is the tripe their media feeds them.
video: [url][/url]
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Quote:To Mega Therion
Here is an alternative view from Ireland.
This reads like a personal attack on Nigel Wray. I am sure over the years he has faced worse.
Quote:CK55FEZQuote:To Mega Therion
Here is an alternative view from Ireland.
This reads like a personal attack on Nigel Wray. I am sure over the years he has faced worse.
I am not a big fan of Francis as a journalist. He was a player and he has followed this through to his writing. He can be funny and like a broken clock is right now and again.
HOWEVER
You look down on what he has written just as a lot of people in Ireland look down on what is in your press. The general view is that there is little if any balanced journalism involved and that most of what is written is just pr spin for the prl. Some of the "articles" read like press releases rather than journalism and there is a complete lack of questioning the "facts".
Here we have the problem of having a small market where the few journalists are scared to get on the wrong side of those in power as it could stop them getting access to players etc in future.
The fans are being treated like mushrooms.... Kept in the dark and fed @#$%&.
grauniad
Ritchie lays the blame for the current mess firmly at the door of the lunatic Camou:
"It all comes down to the framework, who runs it," Ritchie said. "ERC, the Six Nations or a new company. We believe the Six Nations is perfectly acceptable and so do Premiership Rugby and the Ligue Nationale de Rugby, but the FFR does not."
Also (the grauniad, not Ritchie):
"The Welsh regions are expected to tell the Welsh Rugby Union on Wednesday that they will be going their own way next season, prepared to go to court to fight for the right to link with the English."
For good or ill history could be about to be made.
Ritchie lays the blame for the current mess firmly at the door of the lunatic Camou:
"It all comes down to the framework, who runs it," Ritchie said. "ERC, the Six Nations or a new company. We believe the Six Nations is perfectly acceptable and so do Premiership Rugby and the Ligue Nationale de Rugby, but the FFR does not."
Also (the grauniad, not Ritchie):
"The Welsh regions are expected to tell the Welsh Rugby Union on Wednesday that they will be going their own way next season, prepared to go to court to fight for the right to link with the English."
For good or ill history could be about to be made.
Good luck to SKY with the Rabo minus the Welsh clubs and the Heineken Cup without the English and the Welsh.
Quote; "With the English clubs refusing to play in the Heineken Cup next season and the Welsh regions ready to defy their union on Wednesday by refusing to sign a new participation agreement, Ritchie fears that 18 years of European club rugby could come to an abrupt end to the benefit of no one."
What really bugs me about this whole farcical situation is that no one really wants to see an "abrupt end to European Club Rugby."
It is just that the 'control' of the current set up does not suit the majority of clubs.
And for all those that want to pick me up on the use of the word MAJORITY I am sure that if there were a free unconditional vote void of strings, persuasions, financial inducements and encumbrances then 100% of LNR, 100% OF English and at least 4/12ths of Rabo would back the formation of a new governing body.
What really bugs me about this whole farcical situation is that no one really wants to see an "abrupt end to European Club Rugby."
It is just that the 'control' of the current set up does not suit the majority of clubs.
And for all those that want to pick me up on the use of the word MAJORITY I am sure that if there were a free unconditional vote void of strings, persuasions, financial inducements and encumbrances then 100% of LNR, 100% OF English and at least 4/12ths of Rabo would back the formation of a new governing body.
Editor writes:
This thread includes the ERC thread and the HC thread.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
This thread includes the ERC thread and the HC thread.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Quote:CK55FEZ
And for all those that want to pick me up on the use of the word MAJORITY I am sure that if there were a free unconditional vote void of strings, persuasions, financial inducements and encumbrances then 100% of LNR, 100% OF English and at least 4/12ths of Rabo would back the formation of a new governing body.
Exactly, 30 out of 38. And yet the Celtic tail still wags the ERC dog and blames the English for everything.
A summary of the position facing the Welsh regions.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Nothing quite like making a thread Sticky to halt it in its tracks, eh, TT? 
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
It's migrated to the Welsh joining the AP one!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Peter Tom at Leicester has said that an Anglo-welsh league could be happen as early as next year.
If we're not going to have European rugby next year then this is a great deal for the premiership clubs, add in 4 extra home fixtures which are likely to sell well and ally the Welsh to our camp for when we next negotiate with Europe.
However, if you add in 8 extra games a year then how would we cut them again if we wanted to play European rugby later?
If we're not going to have European rugby next year then this is a great deal for the premiership clubs, add in 4 extra home fixtures which are likely to sell well and ally the Welsh to our camp for when we next negotiate with Europe.
However, if you add in 8 extra games a year then how would we cut them again if we wanted to play European rugby later?
All fighting talk really, what happens if we do want to go back into Europe, no weekends left to play it, without either kicking the Taffs back out again or some of the existing English Clubs, though it may possibly happen and we don't play in Europe any more period, that seems to be what PRL want, this really might be the end of European Rugby forever with everyone so deeply entrenched.
Inaccurate reporting. When Toms says "we have discussed the matter at board level" he means Leicester, not PRL.
Quote:StuTinner
By dropping the LV Cup
That frees up the weekends, but then you're playing 8-10 games a year with the internationals away!
There's simply not time for a 30 round national league, plus 9 Euro games, plus 8 internationals without compromising one. And certainly not in 2015 when we can't start the league until November!
would prefer just adding two english clubs, ultimately a 16 team league isn't going to work when there is a chance of returning to the heineken or creating the champions cup
Well if it's to happen then either PRL accepts that European competition is dead forever or they, and the Welsh regions, accept an arrangement which provides for 2-down, 1-up relegation/promotion in order to shrink the premiership again and allow for European competition.
Although I have little sympathy for the Rabo league unions at the moment, you do have to ask what will happen to that league if the Welsh pull out? It will become even more devalued and not really viable with only 8 pro teams involved. The Welsh joining the AP is attractive for anglo welsh rugby but overall would be very damaging for pan European rugby.
I would prefer to see 2 additional English Championship sides promoted and perhaps the introduction of a proper knock out GB&I cup (straight knock out from game 1 - no round robin pools)
The PRL/RFU need to be careful that anything they introduce on a temporary basis is easy to undo as hopefully there will be a European Cup again in a couple of seasons time which will require weekends in the calendar.
I would prefer to see 2 additional English Championship sides promoted and perhaps the introduction of a proper knock out GB&I cup (straight knock out from game 1 - no round robin pools)
The PRL/RFU need to be careful that anything they introduce on a temporary basis is easy to undo as hopefully there will be a European Cup again in a couple of seasons time which will require weekends in the calendar.
The welsh are contracted to the rabo for the next few years as far as I know so I do not think they could join the AP. Also they are contracted to the HC. They would need to give their 18 months notice which has not happened.
It is all talk at the moment. The welsh situation is a mess that needs sorting and now appears the time when it is going to blow up.
It is all talk at the moment. The welsh situation is a mess that needs sorting and now appears the time when it is going to blow up.
Having an Anglo-Welsh league would also complicate the European agenda in that the English clubs would presumably have to share a one-third vote and one-third revenue with the Welsh.
The WRU is signed up to the Pro 12, not the regions. The WRU is signed up to the HC, not the regions. What keeps the regions in the Pro 12 and the HC is their Participation Agreement with WRU, which is about to expire. If they don't sign a new Participation Agreement then, contractually, they are free agents.
And if the WRU then tries to use its rules to block the regions from playing in a new Anglo-Welsh tournament the WRU will most assuredly find itself trying to defend its position in a court of law (without the benefit of an arcane statute such as FFR relied upon to bully its clubs).
And if the WRU then tries to use its rules to block the regions from playing in a new Anglo-Welsh tournament the WRU will most assuredly find itself trying to defend its position in a court of law (without the benefit of an arcane statute such as FFR relied upon to bully its clubs).
Quote:
Well he's got his eyes open and his head screwed on the right way round.
Quote:Shhh!Quote:
Well he's got his eyes open and his head screwed on the right way round.
He makes some interesting points but many of the comments are not that favorable. One poster does the maths and shows how the regions currently get about 4m each from the wru when all different funding sources are added up. The BT money top the clubs is supposed to be about 2m each. Without support from the WRU it will be difficult to bridge that funding gap. The real problem is they need to do more than bridge the gap as they claim not to be able to survive on their current money.
It might be an interesting move if it had wru approval but it would be difficult without it.
I still think a rabo plus prl amalgamation would be a great step forward but it would take years to sort out the tv deals and vested interests. It would provide enough quality teams to create active promotion relegation battles.
I think the money would easily be there and the least of the issues if this were to move forward.
BT would step up the payment just to take some more things away from SKY and devalue their Rabo League. It's worth a minor hit on BT in the big war that is going on between the two.
When you enter into it, sponsorship, increased revenue from gates, etc, I can't see it being a shortfall.
The bigger issues are the ones mentioned above, the number of fixtures, if any sort of European Tournament gets reinstated (though I would be in favour of dropping the LV Cup, but this would mean that we would need more A Team games). And of course relegation.
BT would step up the payment just to take some more things away from SKY and devalue their Rabo League. It's worth a minor hit on BT in the big war that is going on between the two.
When you enter into it, sponsorship, increased revenue from gates, etc, I can't see it being a shortfall.
The bigger issues are the ones mentioned above, the number of fixtures, if any sort of European Tournament gets reinstated (though I would be in favour of dropping the LV Cup, but this would mean that we would need more A Team games). And of course relegation.
Here are the preconceptions of the clubs/regions/provinces right now
English - greedy, selfish, wanting to rule the game with their gazillionaire owners stopping at nothing to do so
Irish - complacent, stubborn, not wanting their umbilical to the Dublin rugby Mafia cut or their free meal ticket taken away
French - double-crossing, cheese-eating surrender monkeys who were only in the ECC thing to get more wedge from their federation
Welsh - being torn to bits by a possiblity of joining the English Premiership, and the WRU pulling the rug from under them if they don't behave
Scots / Italians - lambs to the slaugher. Whatever happens, these two can only lose.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
English - greedy, selfish, wanting to rule the game with their gazillionaire owners stopping at nothing to do so
Irish - complacent, stubborn, not wanting their umbilical to the Dublin rugby Mafia cut or their free meal ticket taken away
French - double-crossing, cheese-eating surrender monkeys who were only in the ECC thing to get more wedge from their federation
Welsh - being torn to bits by a possiblity of joining the English Premiership, and the WRU pulling the rug from under them if they don't behave
Scots / Italians - lambs to the slaugher. Whatever happens, these two can only lose.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Saracens are part owned by a billionaire, he can't find the 30million down the back of the sofa if it is needed, now back under your bridge.
Quote:ChrisR
Saracens are part owned by a billionaire, he can't find the 30million down the back of the sofa if it is needed, now back under your bridge.
Ooh listen to her, only asking a simple question, last year the club run at a £7m loss, not great business practice, so I would question the judgemnt of leaders who run a club into debt every year, just saying as I see it, so stop being so bitchy love
Rupert is worth a tad under $10 billion, Wray significantly less, but still many hundreds of millions. There are others, too.
The £30M that you associate with Saracens is only an issue if the loan is called in.
That won't happen.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
The £30M that you associate with Saracens is only an issue if the loan is called in.
That won't happen.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Wray is less than a 1% shareholder! I don't see how questioning facts is trolling unless the truth hurts to be honest! now who is this Rupert chap! I cannot find any shareholders or directors called Rupert, lots of Saffers mind you have shares or are directors. But the fact the club runs continually at a loss should be a concern, unless you stupid, I don't think for one minute any Saracens fans are stupid but to think running a business at a loss is good, is more than a strange thought process.
Ritchie is doing his best but this kow-towing to the reactionary Celts and Italians is scarcely better than what we have now:
RFU trying to broker a deal
"What had been discussed in detail was that the RaboDirect PRO12 teams would get a protected financial distribution for five years of a minimum of £16.77million per annum, rising to £20.12million if the revenue raised from the tournament climbed above £50.3million."
"Get stuffed" is the only possible response to that.
RFU trying to broker a deal
"What had been discussed in detail was that the RaboDirect PRO12 teams would get a protected financial distribution for five years of a minimum of £16.77million per annum, rising to £20.12million if the revenue raised from the tournament climbed above £50.3million."
"Get stuffed" is the only possible response to that.
It's better though Shhh! because of the removal of the ERC, and the then equal share of votes. The money as the tournament grows can then be more equally apportioned down the road, one step at a time.
Quote:YoungMan
Wray is less than a 1% shareholder! I don't see how questioning facts is trolling unless the truth hurts to be honest! now who is this Rupert chap! I cannot find any shareholders or directors called Rupert, lots of Saffers mind you have shares or are directors. But the fact the club runs continually at a loss should be a concern, unless you stupid, I don't think for one minute any Saracens fans are stupid but to think running a business at a loss is good, is more than a strange thought process.
You might find that you receive a more considered response if you had made some effort to determine the facts.
There are any number of articles that identify the shareholders of Saracens. Rupert bought a 50% share in Saracens from Wray's group in 2008/9.
Saracens are spending a lot on their stadium. It would be quite impossible for the club to fund this work from revenue, and the club had no assets, such as land to sell off to developers.
The club is very fortunate to have rich benefactors who are fully aware that there is a need to invest now, in order to achieve financial stability in the future.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Shhh!
Ritchie is doing his best but this kow-towing to the reactionary Celts and Italians is scarcely better than what we have now:
RFU trying to broker a deal
"What had been discussed in detail was that the RaboDirect PRO12 teams would get a protected financial distribution for five years of a minimum of £16.77million per annum, rising to £20.12million if the revenue raised from the tournament climbed above £50.3million."
"Get stuffed" is the only possible response to that.
TO be fair, Shhh, you missed the bit that follows which is where the hard ball hits you:
"If you want that protected with a guarantee that is underwritten by the English and French, you can't take that guarantee and then say you want a majority say on how the rights are controlled.
"Either you split the commercial rights three ways or you take the guarantee."
I think Ritchie is doing a grand job. Whether the other unions think so and whether it will work remains to be seen. Who would be a cat herder?
Convex, I go with the legal entity that is companies house , it only mentions Johanns daughter as being a share holder/Director not some newspaper. The majority share holder is a limited company of which wray is not a director. I don't know about you , but I don't believe millionaires or billionaires waste money on bad investments, there will be a limit , when enough is enough ?
It doesn't matter what you believe - Nigel Wray has spent his money on the game/club he loves. Others may spend their fortune on artwork etc. but sport is his passion so that's where he puts his money. You'll only get the bare bones of information from Companies House.
Precisely. I have significant shareholding in a couple of companies but it is not directly evident from the records in Companies House.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Perhaps YoungMan thinks Nigel keeps his share certificates in a shoe-box under his bed along with the yellowing ones he was given 25 years ago when Abbey National was privatised.
But what makes you think it is a bad investment? The long term goal is to make the club financially viable. The only way to make that happen is to invest money in the short term on ifrastructure that will allow it to make money (something like, I don't know, a brand new stadium?).
As Convex Hull mentioned above, Saracens had no saleable assets so this investment has to be funded by debt/losses. We are incredibly lucky that we have investors to cover this.
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
As Convex Hull mentioned above, Saracens had no saleable assets so this investment has to be funded by debt/losses. We are incredibly lucky that we have investors to cover this.
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
Guess we'll find out a bit more today about what the Welsh Regions are going to do.
Quote:Oh so that's why it the loss has increased steadily since 2009, silly troll. Be blind to the facts guys if you want. It just emphasises the arroganceRif
But what makes you think it is a bad investment? The long term goal is to make the club financially viable. The only way to make that happen is to invest money in the short term on infrastructure that will allow it to make money (something like, I don't know, a brand new stadium?).
As Convex Hull mentioned above, Saracens had no saleable assets so this investment has to be funded by debt/losses. We are incredibly lucky that we have investors to cover this.
Why is it that when someone has a difference of opinion to the perceived norm, they are branded a troll? I just don't get it.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Me neither there is a kinbd of thought police here and if you don't agree with their views, you are a troll and abuser or worse, lets be fair no one here is stating facts merely stating opinions, me included.
Some come to express an opinion. Some come to mock and jeer. The latter are trolls.
The Welsh View
[www.walesonline.co.uk]
"We view ourselves on the eve of battle. We are nerved for the contest, and must conquer or perish. It is vain to look for present aid: none is at hand. We must now act or abandon all hope! Rally to the Red Hand, and be no longer the scoff of English tongues! Be men, be free men, that your children may bless their father's name and....... SUFTUM
[www.walesonline.co.uk]
"We view ourselves on the eve of battle. We are nerved for the contest, and must conquer or perish. It is vain to look for present aid: none is at hand. We must now act or abandon all hope! Rally to the Red Hand, and be no longer the scoff of English tongues! Be men, be free men, that your children may bless their father's name and....... SUFTUM
Quote:To Mega Therion
Why is it that when someone has a difference of opinion to the perceived norm, they are branded a troll? I just don't get it.
The key giveaways are clear.
Someone who has a difference of opinion would first have a valid opinion to start with and then respond to the initial reply by ChrisR with a reasoned response, listing facts and other information to back that opinion or point.
He would then have a robust and reasoned debate and take on board the views of those debating with him.
Instead, Youngman first windmills in with a cheap shot about Saracens debt pile. Then, instead of getting pinned down on that, moves on to (very weakly) question who owns Saracens sprinkled with a few choice insults.
Next, he keeps coming back to the fact that Saracens are making a loss year on year and refuses to be drawn on why exactly Saracens have been losing money in the past decade.
Every time the conversation goes back on topic, he comes back with yet another post to take it back off of topic to get a reaction.
That, my friend, is why he is a troll and not a person with a difference of opinion.
Interestingly those who do espouse an opinion on websites that is deliberately inflammatory tend to use the term arrogant whenever someone challenges them. For classic examples look at any comments sections on the bbc rugby website, it seems to be one of the most widely used words on there, usually in conjunction with the word English. Almost in the same way as any mention of Saracens is combined with the phrase cheating the salary cap or Chris Ashton is @#$%&. Really bored with keyboard warriors.
"Darkness washed over the Dude - Darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night. There was no bottom."
"Darkness washed over the Dude - Darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night. There was no bottom."
Quote:
No, just the view of Gwyn Jones.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Quote:Gwyn Jones
Do you really trust the English to do what is in the best interest of Wales?
Eight hundred years of oppression should have taught us to be cautious.
That kind of...vitriol in this day an age is frankly embarrassing and hardly moves the debate forward.
Perhaps as a starting point for righting all the wrongs of 800 years of oppression we should ask the chaps in the round ball game to release Cardiff and Swansea from the oppressive regime of the Premiership so that they can operate as freed entities in the Welsh league structure!
Can you imagine the joy of all those Welsh fans as they head off to the big matches against Bala Town, Bangor City and AirbusUK!!
Oppression is only oppression when it suits the argument. Very, very lazy journalism.
Can you imagine the joy of all those Welsh fans as they head off to the big matches against Bala Town, Bangor City and AirbusUK!!
Oppression is only oppression when it suits the argument. Very, very lazy journalism.
Just heard a delicious rumour that the Scots are in too. RCC by the back door?
(And no, I don't have anything to back it up, gossip is all it is!)
(And no, I don't have anything to back it up, gossip is all it is!)
Oo Chop.s that's our local stamping ground didn't know we could watch our rugby there though.
Posted by: Shhh! (IP Logged)
Date: 11 December, 2013 13:49
Some come to express an opinion. Some come to mock and jeer. The latter are trolls.
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You only have to look at the House of commons to see that mocking, jeering and taking the wee wee, has been engrained in British life for centuries, its the way we do business old chap, why should the internet be excluded.
Date: 11 December, 2013 13:49
Some come to express an opinion. Some come to mock and jeer. The latter are trolls.
Options: Reply To This Message•Quote This Message•Report This Message•Reply via
You only have to look at the House of commons to see that mocking, jeering and taking the wee wee, has been engrained in British life for centuries, its the way we do business old chap, why should the internet be excluded.
Because the internet grants anonymity and forums are even worse being that you can register under different usernames, something you should be well aware of Dave, just for the case of posting comments meant to cause a response.
I am all for reasoned debate but as soon as someone starts getting personal I stop responding to them. It also helps, as mentioned above that people check their facts.
The last I was aware Nigel owns 20% in Sarries with a couple of other guys owning 30% between them (their names escape me currently), and Rupert having 50%.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:11:17:40:28 by ChrisR.
I am all for reasoned debate but as soon as someone starts getting personal I stop responding to them. It also helps, as mentioned above that people check their facts.
The last I was aware Nigel owns 20% in Sarries with a couple of other guys owning 30% between them (their names escape me currently), and Rupert having 50%.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:12:11:17:40:28 by ChrisR.
Quote:2009...around the time the club started designing and building a brand new stadium?YoungManQuote:Oh so that's why it the loss has increased steadily since 2009, silly troll. Be blind to the facts guys if you want. It just emphasises the arroganceRif
But what makes you think it is a bad investment? The long term goal is to make the club financially viable. The only way to make that happen is to invest money in the short term on infrastructure that will allow it to make money (something like, I don't know, a brand new stadium?).
As Convex Hull mentioned above, Saracens had no saleable assets so this investment has to be funded by debt/losses. We are incredibly lucky that we have investors to cover this.
"My kicking coach tells me to imagine I am on the beach and that's what I did. I tried to be as relaxed as possible because we had the wind in our face and I didn't want to force it." - Marcelo Bosch, 06/04/15
Or maybe we won't learn anything more today... Guess we won't actually learn anything until the 31st December...
No agreement, more talks...
No agreement, more talks...
If they can only be bothered to spend two hours on what is probably the most important decisions they will make for Welsh Rugby, seems they aren't that serious about coming to a resolution.
A meeting lasting less than two hours suggests to me that there was complete deadlock and they all went off to consult their lawyers.
Quote:"However, the WRU remains hopeful that the Regions will decide to continue with the Participation Agreement by the deadline of 31st December 2013."
So - the WRFU still 'hopes' for the status quo to be maintained? Some of that most revered body have clearly got their heads firmly jammed into some very dark places of each other's anatomies.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
WRU (note there is no 'F' in WRU - Fnarr) allegedly wants to replace the current set-up with three regions based in Neath, Pontypridd and in North Wales.
There is a Twitter campaign on the go #uniteandfight from regions supporters
The WRU is about as revered in the valleys right now as Will Carling and Brian Moore combined.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
There is a Twitter campaign on the go #uniteandfight from regions supporters
The WRU is about as revered in the valleys right now as Will Carling and Brian Moore combined.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Problem is with the French conceding, the WRU will think that the provinces will do the same - and with that much money at stake, they might
There is still the LNR thing about participation in an ERC-run HCup next season being dependent on English clubs being in there too. If as expected PRL does not back down, that will be another interesting sub-plot.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
They were more than a little mealy-mouthed about what they plan to do if the English are absent. They simply committed to having another meeting, should it occur.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:InningsQuote:"However, the WRU remains hopeful that the Regions will decide to continue with the Participation Agreement by the deadline of 31st December 2013."
So - the WRFU still 'hopes' for the status quo to be maintained? Some of that most revered body have clearly got their heads firmly jammed into some very dark places of each other's anatomies.
there is more chance of status quo appearing at wembley on the 22nd march than there is for welsh club rugby at the moment, why are they just delaying all the time.. the longer this continues the more welsh players go to france, the more aggitated we as fans get, really hope it gets sorted soon
Not sure how true this is but I have been told that the WRU have laid out a plan where by if the regions do not sign up by the deadline they will be launching 4 new regions. They already own 50% of Scarlets and the Blues are on the turn so they will probably have at least two full squads to start with. I was further told that a number of those coming to the end of their contracts have been approached by the WRU to sign central contracts but the difficulty is competing with the money the french are offering.
There is only two weeks for a decision to be made. Unless they get an offer of an invite to the AP plus a small shed full of money they have no alternative. It would be suicidal to not sign in the hope of an anglo deal.
They may be left with four weakened teams for a few seasons but they are willing to accept that short term hit for the long term stability it should give them. Remember that a good pro career is about 10 years and many of the big names are at the wrong end of that figure. In 2 or three years the next generation will be pushing through and the teams will build from there.
There is only two weeks for a decision to be made. Unless they get an offer of an invite to the AP plus a small shed full of money they have no alternative. It would be suicidal to not sign in the hope of an anglo deal.
They may be left with four weakened teams for a few seasons but they are willing to accept that short term hit for the long term stability it should give them. Remember that a good pro career is about 10 years and many of the big names are at the wrong end of that figure. In 2 or three years the next generation will be pushing through and the teams will build from there.
Quote from the Guardians' Breakdown:-
"Under the plan agreed by the RaboDirect Pro12 unions and the FFR at a meeting in Dublin last month that the RFU was excluded from, 20 teams will take part in the tournament next season when the Amlin Challenge Cup will be suspended.
The Rabo would provide 12 of the teams, France six and the other two would be filled by sides from, probably, Spain and Portugal."
So a complete farce of a tournament, 2 whipping boys from Italy, plus two more even greater whipping boys, 1 from Spain and Portugal. Bet SKY will love covering that. At least the Italian clubs might get a win, though probably the Spain and Portugal sides will be in the Ulster, Munster, Leinster groups...
"Under the plan agreed by the RaboDirect Pro12 unions and the FFR at a meeting in Dublin last month that the RFU was excluded from, 20 teams will take part in the tournament next season when the Amlin Challenge Cup will be suspended.
The Rabo would provide 12 of the teams, France six and the other two would be filled by sides from, probably, Spain and Portugal."
So a complete farce of a tournament, 2 whipping boys from Italy, plus two more even greater whipping boys, 1 from Spain and Portugal. Bet SKY will love covering that. At least the Italian clubs might get a win, though probably the Spain and Portugal sides will be in the Ulster, Munster, Leinster groups...
Actually the Breakdown is a really interesting read this time around, anyone know whether (considering it is emailed to me and therefore not on a website) I can post it in it's entirety here?
Yep, France get 50% of the ERC funding for 6/20 of the clubs.
Wales get 1/4 of the Pro-12 group's funds despite providing 1/3 of the teams because the WRU didn't fight for them.
With friends like the WRU, no wonder the regions are planning to leave for the old enemy!
Wales get 1/4 of the Pro-12 group's funds despite providing 1/3 of the teams because the WRU didn't fight for them.
With friends like the WRU, no wonder the regions are planning to leave for the old enemy!
Quote:Fireworks
Not sure how true this is but I have been told that the WRU have laid out a plan where by if the regions do not sign up by the deadline they will be launching 4 new regions. They already own 50% of Scarlets and the Blues are on the turn so they will probably have at least two full squads to start with.
Whoever told you the WRU has a 50% stake in any team other than the Dragons is full of it.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
Quote:
A good read, I can't see anything getting sorted in time for next season the way it's gone so far.
Can only see it getting a whole lot messier too, it's a real shame a great competition(on the field) is being ruined by all the %£*& off the field!
Looking at the attendance figures for the Rabo it's clear that the game is in decline in Wales. Would an Anglo Welsh league help or totally bury the Welsh?. I don't see any of them really competing with premiership teams in the long term. What happens about relegation?. The Irish must also know this would kill the Celtic league and I doubt you would see the fantastic attendance figures for the Irish provinces if competing in a nothing league. All involved need to sort out a merit based Euro tournament. I'm not sure regular trips to Wales will make up for following Sarries to France and Ireland etc.
Some of us make regular trips to Wales in order to support Sarries.
[www.bbc.co.uk]
Don't know if the merge fairy will add the Heino thread with this, but the RFU is proposing the Six Nations Committee to take over control of the competitions from the ERC
Don't know if the merge fairy will add the Heino thread with this, but the RFU is proposing the Six Nations Committee to take over control of the competitions from the ERC
and seems to have support of everyone but perhaps the French.
Fingers crossed!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Fingers crossed!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Hobbies and personal passions usually cost money, and rich men can afford hobbies and personal passions that cost more than do those of the average rugby supporter.
A bunch of rich men, and a couple of very rich men, have spent money on their passion for rugby by supporting a small local club with long traditions and enabling it to become a powerhouse of the modern game. That costs a lot more money than any of us can afford, but why shouldn't they have spent it? If they actually enable the club to make a profit that returns their monetary input, that'll be a good day for them, but it may not kill any of them if the club doesn't make a profit sufficient to repay them.
And whilst on the subject, why aren't we all criticising the many people who 'invested' in shares in London Irish many years ago? That 'investment' seems to me to be identical in every respect, probably even including scale as a proportion of the investors' wealth, as that by NW and SAIL into Sarries. And shall we all criticise Irish for accepting a new slew of money from men who can have no more expectation of making a profit than did NW when he set out on his adventure?
I can only see two possible reasons for this endless ranting about Sarries' backers. One is simple socialist envy that some people have more money than the people who are complaining, and the other is that the money didn't go to to whatever club the complaining people support.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
A bunch of rich men, and a couple of very rich men, have spent money on their passion for rugby by supporting a small local club with long traditions and enabling it to become a powerhouse of the modern game. That costs a lot more money than any of us can afford, but why shouldn't they have spent it? If they actually enable the club to make a profit that returns their monetary input, that'll be a good day for them, but it may not kill any of them if the club doesn't make a profit sufficient to repay them.
And whilst on the subject, why aren't we all criticising the many people who 'invested' in shares in London Irish many years ago? That 'investment' seems to me to be identical in every respect, probably even including scale as a proportion of the investors' wealth, as that by NW and SAIL into Sarries. And shall we all criticise Irish for accepting a new slew of money from men who can have no more expectation of making a profit than did NW when he set out on his adventure?
I can only see two possible reasons for this endless ranting about Sarries' backers. One is simple socialist envy that some people have more money than the people who are complaining, and the other is that the money didn't go to to whatever club the complaining people support.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Quote:mk-fez
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25382232
Don't know if the merge fairy will add the Heino thread with this, but the RFU is proposing the Six Nations Committee to take over control of the competitions from the ERC
Who are you calling a "fairy"?
I'll try to merge them before my lunch guest turns up
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Here's Eddie Butler's take on things.
Last night I was invited to play in my village's Boxing Day charity rugby match. I resemble Butler's remark "Men too old for the Home Guard"
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Last night I was invited to play in my village's Boxing Day charity rugby match. I resemble Butler's remark "Men too old for the Home Guard"
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Stuart Galacher prepares the way for the Welsh Regions to play hardball.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
That's all over then. The timetable for the new London runway will be an eye's blink compared with this mess resolution once MPs get involved.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Bloomin' eck, now the Froggies have gone and isolated themselves and have killed off next season's HC Lite (the England-free version of the HC that they all agreed on to such fanfare a few weeks ago):
grauniad
So as things stand there is no European tournament of any description next season and the future of professional rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy looks increasingly bleak. However, PRL is in discussion with the RFU over Ritchie's proposal for a European tournament run by the 6 Nations Committee, raising the (slim) hope of a tournament next season, albeit without the French because the FFR will not agree to this governance compromise!
Meanwhile, RRW (the four Welsh pro clubs) has told the WRU that it will not sign a new participation agreement for the Pro 12 and ERC by the 31st December deadline - and has not requested an extension to the deadline. RRW has also warned the WRU that if it (the WRU) tries to set up its own regional teams to participate in the Pro 12 and ERC, RRW will seek an injunction to prevent them from doing so.
Meanwhile meanwhile, the Italian federation has indicated that it is fed up with having to pay the Celts 3 million euros per season to play in the Pro 12, and has indicated that it may withdraw its teams.
Where all this chaos will end is now anybody's guess.
grauniad
So as things stand there is no European tournament of any description next season and the future of professional rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy looks increasingly bleak. However, PRL is in discussion with the RFU over Ritchie's proposal for a European tournament run by the 6 Nations Committee, raising the (slim) hope of a tournament next season, albeit without the French because the FFR will not agree to this governance compromise!
Meanwhile, RRW (the four Welsh pro clubs) has told the WRU that it will not sign a new participation agreement for the Pro 12 and ERC by the 31st December deadline - and has not requested an extension to the deadline. RRW has also warned the WRU that if it (the WRU) tries to set up its own regional teams to participate in the Pro 12 and ERC, RRW will seek an injunction to prevent them from doing so.
Meanwhile meanwhile, the Italian federation has indicated that it is fed up with having to pay the Celts 3 million euros per season to play in the Pro 12, and has indicated that it may withdraw its teams.
Where all this chaos will end is now anybody's guess.
We don't like the suicide note you (WRU)'ve, so we'll draft our own!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
I presume that nothing actually happens at midnight tonight if this deal isn't signed as it appears to run until the end of the season at least.
But we're really quickly running out of time to decide what fixtures will happen when and which teams will play in them.
Say the WRU decide to set up three new teams, they won't be able to reach out to players for another few months by which point most current pros will be contracted to another side. Are they really going to make up three sides from academy players and whichever of Leigh Halfpenny, Sam Warburton, Alun Wyn Jones, Scott Williams, Adam Jones and Rhys Priestland decide to be loyal enough to stay in Wales but not loyal enough to stay with their clubs?
But we're really quickly running out of time to decide what fixtures will happen when and which teams will play in them.
Say the WRU decide to set up three new teams, they won't be able to reach out to players for another few months by which point most current pros will be contracted to another side. Are they really going to make up three sides from academy players and whichever of Leigh Halfpenny, Sam Warburton, Alun Wyn Jones, Scott Williams, Adam Jones and Rhys Priestland decide to be loyal enough to stay in Wales but not loyal enough to stay with their clubs?
Apparently the WRU meets on Thursday to decide its next move.
Meanwhile, according to today's broadsheets, PRL is pushing for one more effort to save the HC based on the RFU proposal of governance by the 6N committee and commercial control by the clubs (i.e. broadcast by BT). Ironically the Frogs are now believed to be the main stumbling block after Camou had a hissy fit when all the other Unions rejected his plan for governance by FIRA.
It's hard to see what the WRU can do next. It could take months yet for the Unions and the courts to figure out who will play in what tournaments next season so, even if the WRU does try to create its own regional teams, by the time it's all sorted out the players the WRU is desperate to keep will all have signed lucrative contracts in France anyway.
It begins to look like the only solution now to the entire calamity is for the Unions, PRL and RRW to all go along with the RFU plan, even if it leaves the Frogs out in the cold.
Meanwhile, according to today's broadsheets, PRL is pushing for one more effort to save the HC based on the RFU proposal of governance by the 6N committee and commercial control by the clubs (i.e. broadcast by BT). Ironically the Frogs are now believed to be the main stumbling block after Camou had a hissy fit when all the other Unions rejected his plan for governance by FIRA.
It's hard to see what the WRU can do next. It could take months yet for the Unions and the courts to figure out who will play in what tournaments next season so, even if the WRU does try to create its own regional teams, by the time it's all sorted out the players the WRU is desperate to keep will all have signed lucrative contracts in France anyway.
It begins to look like the only solution now to the entire calamity is for the Unions, PRL and RRW to all go along with the RFU plan, even if it leaves the Frogs out in the cold.
Yep, there's just not enough fans or players in Wales to set up a secret extra set of clubs to start playing in September.
You might persuade Pontypridd to step up as a new region (again), but other Welsh Premiership sides like Cardiff or Newport are obviously too closely linked to the current regional structure to side with the WRU.
You might persuade Pontypridd to step up as a new region (again), but other Welsh Premiership sides like Cardiff or Newport are obviously too closely linked to the current regional structure to side with the WRU.
We were hoping for a regional team in North Wales which we could semi-support whilst still supporting Saracens. Can't see it happening though.
They could play at the Wrexham FC ground instead of the Crusaders. 20 minute drive - perfect!
Flippancy as to the bumpy terrain aside, as you say I can't see it happening. My money's on a last-gasp rescue for the Heineken Cup, thereby enabling the WRU and the clubs to revert to simply hating each other instead of all-out war.
So that is an anglowelsh league and new regions for the WRU then. Interesting times...
The ERC are going to have issues finding 20 competitive teams for their HC next season.
I wonder if the WRU start approaching the few players left playing in Wales and tell them
1. They can tear up their contracts with their clubs because of sub-clause 175.5 and sign another contract - their lawyers will help
2. They won't get picked for Wales if they don't
1. They can tear up their contracts with their clubs because of sub-clause 175.5 and sign another contract - their lawyers will help
2. They won't get picked for Wales if they don't
I see that the WRU statement confirms what the regions have been saying all along i.e. that the WRU doesn't give a stuff about professional domestic rugby in Wales except as a feeder for its international ambitions:
The decision of the existing Regional Organisations not to continue with the PA has now freed the WRU to present a new Participation Agreement focused on recognising and rewarding Regions which identify, develop and retain players capable of challenging for international honours with Wales. This is in the best interests of Welsh Rugby.
The decision of the existing Regional Organisations not to continue with the PA has now freed the WRU to present a new Participation Agreement focused on recognising and rewarding Regions which identify, develop and retain players capable of challenging for international honours with Wales. This is in the best interests of Welsh Rugby.
You couldn't ask for a worse start to the Welsh rugby new year
[www.cardiffblues.com]
and
[www.wru.co.uk]
The old adage - When you find you're in a hole, stop digging - seems not to be known across the Severn Bridges.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
[www.cardiffblues.com]
and
[www.wru.co.uk]
The old adage - When you find you're in a hole, stop digging - seems not to be known across the Severn Bridges.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
What a mess, it's hard to see how the WRUs stance can end well for them.
Hopefully with that commitment to the champions cup, the French sides will get back on board and some kind of tournament will take place next season.
Hopefully with that commitment to the champions cup, the French sides will get back on board and some kind of tournament will take place next season.
Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but doesn't that also mean they've effectively pulled out of the Rabble as well? That must have a few large implications for the aviva...
Edit: [www.theguardian.com] Well there you go! (It's the Grauniad so it's probably 100% wrong, but still...)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:01:13:35:49 by Wolfpack Mozart.
Edit: [www.theguardian.com] Well there you go! (It's the Grauniad so it's probably 100% wrong, but still...)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:01:13:35:49 by Wolfpack Mozart.
Quote:Wolfpack Mozart
Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but doesn't that also mean they've effectively pulled out of the Rabble as well?
Indeed it does, the participation agreement they refused to sign covered both the HC (ERC version) and the Pro12.
It's a complete mess, with the Italians not committed (yet) to the Rabo, the French not happy with the ERC running the HC, the Welsh looking to be in the Premiership next season.
It looks like the Rabo will be Scotland v Ireland v The New Welsh Regions with no players, and the HC Lite will be exactly the same. Well done SKY for paying for the rights to the same competition twice.
Makes you appreciate our league and how well setup it is, remind me who does that?
It looks like the Rabo will be Scotland v Ireland v The New Welsh Regions with no players, and the HC Lite will be exactly the same. Well done SKY for paying for the rights to the same competition twice.
Makes you appreciate our league and how well setup it is, remind me who does that?
And the ones who've dropped the biggest clanger of all? The IRFU and the Irish provinces, who failed to spot that it was all falling apart and that their 15-year gravy train was about to come off the rails (see what I did there?).
They, like the ERC, stuck their heads in the sand and pretended nothing was going to happen (hardly surprising they both did the same thing as they are effectively the same organisation).
ERC intransigence started this problem - and the IRFU - as the most powerful of the Union-run leagues - carried it on. Now they effectively have nothing but half a league and no European competition. Most worringly, they have to find a way of funding themselves in the future, rather than live off the back of English and French generated revenues.
Whereas we know what's going on in Wales as it's slapped all over the papers every day, I wonder what's going on behind the scenes in Italy, Ireland and Scotland?
They, like the ERC, stuck their heads in the sand and pretended nothing was going to happen (hardly surprising they both did the same thing as they are effectively the same organisation).
ERC intransigence started this problem - and the IRFU - as the most powerful of the Union-run leagues - carried it on. Now they effectively have nothing but half a league and no European competition. Most worringly, they have to find a way of funding themselves in the future, rather than live off the back of English and French generated revenues.
Whereas we know what's going on in Wales as it's slapped all over the papers every day, I wonder what's going on behind the scenes in Italy, Ireland and Scotland?
Someone somewhere has to back down if we go Anglo Welsh with 16 teams there will be no space for cross border competions, no European Cup at all nor an Anglo Saffa one, and the Six Nations will be reduced to rubble, with only the English and French able to put out serious teams, .
I can sadly see the whole game imploding quickly.
Happy new year
I can sadly see the whole game imploding quickly.
Happy new year
Well the TOP14 make room for it, and while it is 4 more games, we could just get rid of the LV Cup...
..Pah! You can see rugby imploding, but what about this?
Comet ISON: Electrical discharges to destroy earth's surface on January 12, 2014.
....that's going to mess up our match against Toulouse.
A bit of a bummer, really. I have spent the last ten weeks redecorating the bedroom. I wouldn't have bothered if I had known earlier.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:01:22:57:03 by Convex Hull.
Comet ISON: Electrical discharges to destroy earth's surface on January 12, 2014.
....that's going to mess up our match against Toulouse.
A bit of a bummer, really. I have spent the last ten weeks redecorating the bedroom. I wouldn't have bothered if I had known earlier.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:01:22:57:03 by Convex Hull.
Well yes ChrisR by my maths tells me we will have sixteen in the Anglo Welsh
Quote:Convex Hull
..Pah! You can see rugby imploding, but what about this?
Comet ISON: Electrical discharges to destroy earth's surface on January 12, 2014.
....that's going to mess up our match against Toulouse.
A bit of a bummer, really. I have spent the last ten weeks redecorating the bedroom. I wouldn't have bothered if I had known earlier.
Just make a few of these and you can enjoy your new decor for years to come.
Even keeping the European weekends free
for the extra 8 matches
there are 4 weekends for the current LV cup, plus 2 weeks everyone gets off (7th & 14th March), one of which is the LV semis
that needs 2 more weeks to find and the knock-out semi and final weekends will do nicely
for the extra 8 matches
there are 4 weekends for the current LV cup, plus 2 weeks everyone gets off (7th & 14th March), one of which is the LV semis
that needs 2 more weeks to find and the knock-out semi and final weekends will do nicely
Thanks for the tip Shhh!
I just advised my daughter that she needs to wear one over her helmet, when she is skiing in Colorado next week.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I just advised my daughter that she needs to wear one over her helmet, when she is skiing in Colorado next week.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Yeah WD, my post was not clear, I meant 4 extra matches compared to what they play in the top 14, so an extra 8 altogether.
Quote:Convex Hull
Thanks for the tip Shhh!
I just advised my daughter that she needs to wear one over her helmet, when she is skiing in Colorado next week.
You know it makes sense. Can't be too careful when the end of the world is nigh.
I read somewhere that there were 6 Welsh players up for contract renewal at the end of this season
given there are at least 7 of their most senior players already 'abroad', this does put the union in a strongish position
As well as the 6 senior players, there must also be some fringe / U20s also up for renewal or playing abroad already (Rees for example)
seems to me this is allowing the union to play hardball
given there are at least 7 of their most senior players already 'abroad', this does put the union in a strongish position
As well as the 6 senior players, there must also be some fringe / U20s also up for renewal or playing abroad already (Rees for example)
seems to me this is allowing the union to play hardball
I note that the WRU has never quoted the IRB 'regulation' that allows it to veto the Welsh regions' participation in a cross-border competition, let alone give a document and paragraph reference to an IRB source.
I suspect that their stance is bluster designed to protect their hegemony over finances, and the argument will fall away amongst much spluttering of Gin-and-Tonic over blazers.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
I suspect that their stance is bluster designed to protect their hegemony over finances, and the argument will fall away amongst much spluttering of Gin-and-Tonic over blazers.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Quote:TonyTaff
I note that the WRU has never quoted the IRB 'regulation' that allows it to veto the Welsh regions' participation in a cross-border competition, let alone give a document and paragraph reference to an IRB source.
I suspect that their stance is bluster designed to protect their hegemony over finances, and the argument will fall away amongst much spluttering of Gin-and-Tonic over blazers.
Quote:IRB Regulations 2.1.2
A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to one Union and shall be
subject to the jurisdiction of the bye-laws, rules and regulations of that
Union. A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to the Union within
whose geographical boundaries its Home Ground is situated and shall
only be entitled to play in Matches organised, recognised or sanctioned by
that Union, unless specific approval has been given by both Unions. No
Club or Rugby Body shall be entitled to change the location of its Home
Ground or the name by which its senior teams are known, without the
prior written consent of the Union to which it is affiliated.
BB
Quote:JO'G
I read somewhere that there were 6 Welsh players up for contract renewal at the end of this season
given there are at least 7 of their most senior players already 'abroad', this does put the union in a strongish position
As well as the 6 senior players, there must also be some fringe / U20s also up for renewal or playing abroad already (Rees for example)
seems to me this is allowing the union to play hardball
Funny, but I read it the other way, they may have some degree of control (ala George North), but if the players all move out of Wales, who will go and watch depleted teams being stuffed by the Irish, Scots & Italians? Which TV/Sponsors are going to put up anything like the Money Sky or BT do?
It seems that WRU may have something up their sleeve, but it appears that all along they just want to hang the regions out to dry so they can take "control", but control of what I ask, I think they have over played their hand.
Quote:Fozz1e
Funny, but I read it the other way
Me too. The WRU wants to set up new regions as franchises as per the Irish model, but it can't hire players for those regions who are already under contract - and in a few weeks' time that'll be all of them. I mean, if you were Sam Warburton, how long would you be prepared to hang around waiting for Welsh lawyers to finish slinging mud at each other when you've already got lucrative offers on the table?
Quote:Brown BottleQuote:TonyTaff
I note that the WRU has never quoted the IRB 'regulation' that allows it to veto the Welsh regions' participation in a cross-border competition, let alone give a document and paragraph reference to an IRB source.
I suspect that their stance is bluster designed to protect their hegemony over finances, and the argument will fall away amongst much spluttering of Gin-and-Tonic over blazers.
Quote:IRB Regulations 2.1.2
A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to one Union and shall be
subject to the jurisdiction of the bye-laws, rules and regulations of that
Union. A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to the Union within
whose geographical boundaries its Home Ground is situated and shall
only be entitled to play in Matches organised, recognised or sanctioned by
that Union, unless specific approval has been given by both Unions. No
Club or Rugby Body shall be entitled to change the location of its Home
Ground or the name by which its senior teams are known, without the
prior written consent of the Union to which it is affiliated.
Thanks BB. I'm at a loss to understand why the WRU don't quote this, and then invite the IRB to state if they think the Anglo-Welsh plan could ever fly if the WRU oppose it.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Quote:TonyTaff
Thanks BB. I'm at a loss to understand why the WRU don't quote this, and then invite the IRB to state if they think the Anglo-Welsh plan could ever fly if the WRU oppose it.
It's what this was intended to indicate:
Furthermore the WRU reaffirms its commitment to the International Rugby Board's regulations which provide that cross-border competitions and tournaments may only take place with the full approval of the relevant unions.
Statement not required from IRB, the regulation is clear. Ultimately, though, a court will still be asked to rule on it.
Actually, maybe I posted too soon. Does this mean no Anglo-Welsh premiership? I bloody hope so!
BB
BB
As has been noted before, the fact that the home union (ie WRU) has to approve participation in a cross border competition does not mean the union can be capricious about it. If the WRU sets up its own new regions to participate in the RABO/Heineken, and no longer backs the present regions, what would be reasonable to block those regions participating in the expanded AP or the RCC?
That is where the EU laws and restraint of trade etc start to bite.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
That is where the EU laws and restraint of trade etc start to bite.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Quote:Brown Bottle
Well, there's a couple of nothing statements.
Not at all. The WRU set RRW a deadline of December 31st to sign a new participation agreement. Now WRU says it will present RRW with a new agreement and a new timetable. WRU has blinked.
This is getting more arcane than the Archers plot. I have no idea what each entity is planning.
I am not entirely convinced that they do, either.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I am not entirely convinced that they do, either.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Well Mr McCafferty came out in support of the Regions for standing up to the Union and backing the RCC...
So I am not sure if the Welsh regions are interested in a expanded premiership or the RCC? Either one is preferable I guess to the Participation Agreement that the Unions presented.
I wonder if the new one has better finances...
So I am not sure if the Welsh regions are interested in a expanded premiership or the RCC? Either one is preferable I guess to the Participation Agreement that the Unions presented.
I wonder if the new one has better finances...
prem rugby statement from yesterday ...
On behalf of its clubs, Premiership Rugby today welcomed the news that the Welsh Regions are backing the creation of the Rugby Champions Cup next season and has endorsed the need for resolution in a short timescale.
The concept of the new competitions was announced in September last year and as well as providing a strong, merit-based sporting format, the Rugby Champions Cup will deliver higher commercial values and a platform for expansion. It remains essential within the governance structure for the new competitions that the participant clubs are able to deliver this sporting and commercial improvement under the overall aegis of unions.
"We believe that the new competitions are clearly the best solution. They will deliver more matches between the top teams, as decided on merit, and as the Welsh Regions have stated, they will generate the financial returns to ensure continued strong investment into the club game, including player development and retention,” said Premiership Rugby Chief Executive Mark McCafferty.
On behalf of its clubs, Premiership Rugby today welcomed the news that the Welsh Regions are backing the creation of the Rugby Champions Cup next season and has endorsed the need for resolution in a short timescale.
The concept of the new competitions was announced in September last year and as well as providing a strong, merit-based sporting format, the Rugby Champions Cup will deliver higher commercial values and a platform for expansion. It remains essential within the governance structure for the new competitions that the participant clubs are able to deliver this sporting and commercial improvement under the overall aegis of unions.
"We believe that the new competitions are clearly the best solution. They will deliver more matches between the top teams, as decided on merit, and as the Welsh Regions have stated, they will generate the financial returns to ensure continued strong investment into the club game, including player development and retention,” said Premiership Rugby Chief Executive Mark McCafferty.
Quote:The WRU set RRW a deadline of December 31st to sign a new participation agreement. Now WRU says it will present RRW with a new agreement and a new timetable. WRU has blinked.
It wasn't to sign a new agreement - it was to ratify the existing 10 year one which the WRU were locked into.
BB
Quote:Brown BottleQuote:The WRU set RRW a deadline of December 31st to sign a new participation agreement. Now WRU says it will present RRW with a new agreement and a new timetable. WRU has blinked.
It wasn't to sign a new agreement - it was to ratify the existing 10 year one which the WRU were locked into.
Splitting hairs.
So this could be a breakthrough if true. At least for next season as a one off.
[www.espn.co.uk]
Give the French something to think about and Sky get shafted so u can see why the BT Sport paymasters would push the PRL into it
[www.espn.co.uk]
Give the French something to think about and Sky get shafted so u can see why the BT Sport paymasters would push the PRL into it
The Welsh situation seems to be the determining factor at the moment, BBc Wales are not committing to next season yet, and Pontypridd have stepped into the possible breach.
Seems it may be civil war amoungst the clubs, pro-clubs and WRU, another fine mess.
Seems it may be civil war amoungst the clubs, pro-clubs and WRU, another fine mess.
RRW trying to win hearts and minds - those of the less literate variety.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
seems a sensible approach from the Welsh clubs
1) Scaremonger about a breakaway Angle/Welsh league
2) Fall-back to a perfectly reasonable argument on a competition (RRW) that's going to bring more money to Welsh rugby and by inference allow Wales to retain their star players
3) Make it plain that if the Union did its job properly they would have already left the Irish, Scots and Italians to make up their own minds or RRW
1) Scaremonger about a breakaway Angle/Welsh league
2) Fall-back to a perfectly reasonable argument on a competition (RRW) that's going to bring more money to Welsh rugby and by inference allow Wales to retain their star players
3) Make it plain that if the Union did its job properly they would have already left the Irish, Scots and Italians to make up their own minds or RRW
If the legal opinion received by both sides is that it could go either way in court , I doubt either side want to battle it out, could take years going through appeals from both sides right up to the European Courts.
Maybe common sense will now prevail from all sides and a deal will get done
Maybe common sense will now prevail from all sides and a deal will get done
WRU have probably realised that whether they were to win or lose the court case, they would end up paying out, either the regions' costs and damages (if WRR win) or bailing out the bankrupt clubs / funding their successors (if WRU win). And it would be after a lost season of rugby as well.
It's always been the case that this whole dispute would largely be settled by the end of this season, because no-one can afford uncertainty. The question is who can afford to blink last.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
It's always been the case that this whole dispute would largely be settled by the end of this season, because no-one can afford uncertainty. The question is who can afford to blink last.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Quote:I think that's a very good point. The regions believe they are drinking in the last-chance saloon and have nothing to lose, so they are willing to stake everything and go to the wall if they fail.AP
WRU have probably realised that whether they were to win or lose the court case, they would end up paying out, either the regions' costs and damages (if WRR win) or bailing out the bankrupt clubs / funding their successors (if WRU win).
Agreed the welsh clubs are is a pretty tricky position
starved of funds by the union until they cannot effectively run as a going concern and slapped down when doing anything that will improve their income
starved of funds by the union until they cannot effectively run as a going concern and slapped down when doing anything that will improve their income
Slightly OT here, but is anyone here aware of the 360 deal and the way it has transformed the music industry in the last ten years and made it even wealthier despite the advent of free downloading, if there is (Mick Cater if you are one of the posters here join in ) if there is anyone who has a clue what I am talking about, could it not be the solution to the current crisis in the way that Rugby Union is run in Europe for starters.
Interesting snippet in the Breakdown this week:
"The regions have signed a heads of agreement with Premiership Rugby, binding them to a mutual policy on Europe: neither will play in the Heineken Cup or whatever it turns into without the other. If there is no resolution on a tournament for next season by 31 January, they will start arranging an Anglo-Welsh league."
"The regions have signed a heads of agreement with Premiership Rugby, binding them to a mutual policy on Europe: neither will play in the Heineken Cup or whatever it turns into without the other. If there is no resolution on a tournament for next season by 31 January, they will start arranging an Anglo-Welsh league."
Quote:Trev's Big Tackle
Heads of agreement is non-binding.
Unless it says it's legally binding.
Or unless it involves a Tongan prop of dubious morality.
Time to move on! That was years ago!
Time to move on! That was years ago!
Now the Italians are threatening to pull out of the Pro 12!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
I've no doubt about the commercial impact of a rabodirect league of six clubs, four from Ireland and two from Scotland, playing each other four times a year.
Ireland want nothing to change, and why would they, whilst the Scots are apparently totally caught in the headlights waiting for whichever train will hit them first. The Welsh are caught in the vortex of local politics, leaving the Italians as the only ones actually talking sense. It might also be very good for the Italian game in the medium term, with less money going on imports to help them in the rabo and more going on developing the local talent pool.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Ireland want nothing to change, and why would they, whilst the Scots are apparently totally caught in the headlights waiting for whichever train will hit them first. The Welsh are caught in the vortex of local politics, leaving the Italians as the only ones actually talking sense. It might also be very good for the Italian game in the medium term, with less money going on imports to help them in the rabo and more going on developing the local talent pool.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
This came out a while ago. If I remember correctly the Italians have to pay the Celts something like £3M per season to be allowed to play in their friendlies tournament.
With no Italian money and no sponsor it is in very real danger of collapsing regardless of what the Taffs do.
With no Italian money and no sponsor it is in very real danger of collapsing regardless of what the Taffs do.
About time, pointless league that is only used to get players fit and in the best form they can for the HC. I guess SKY won't be covering a lot of rugby next season... Actually they could cover the ERC's new HC Lite, that will be exactly like the Rabo (except for the Welsh regions)...
There appears to be some "optimism" following a meeting of the Six Unions, but without the WRU/RRW coming to some agreement, the RFU actually being able to deliver the PRL desires, a rapprochement between FFR & LNR and the agreement of Sky/BT, it appears there is still a long way to go.
And that's without factoring in the desire of Les Franglais wanting to be rid of ERC.
The fat lady can remain seated methinks.
And that's without factoring in the desire of Les Franglais wanting to be rid of ERC.
The fat lady can remain seated methinks.
The solution is appearing there, and I now feel confident that the crisis will get resolved quickly, a real nuclear option asppears in there, that Sky and BT Sport have had enough of the stupity and could quite easily join forces between themselves to share the TV rights and then babng the heads of the clubs and thew unions togther that hard, that they are concussed for a week, before getting up and shaking hands on the deal the TV companies tell them to make, as Nigel says the ultimate bosses in all of this are the TV companies, Sky who see their competition disintegrating because of the instransigence of the Celts and BT who have been sold rights to somdthing by PRL that they had no rights to sell and now can't deliver on.
The TV companies have kept publically quiet throughout (showing all other parties the best way to play). The questions they probably have to answer is whether 50% of a good competition each is better than 100% of a bad one each.
If they are genuinely willign to share (and that is a question) then a full multi-national competition will certainly happen next year.
If they want 100%, then this will roll on for another few months!
If they are genuinely willign to share (and that is a question) then a full multi-national competition will certainly happen next year.
If they want 100%, then this will roll on for another few months!
Welsh rugby is becoming even more of a mess, central contract for 1 player, and then not guaranteed to be released to his current region. No wonder Cardiff are upset with the WRU.
You can't just central contract specific players, it will never work. Worse times ahead for Welsh rugby by the looks of things.
You can't just central contract specific players, it will never work. Worse times ahead for Welsh rugby by the looks of things.
the Regions had previously agreed they wouldn't play centrally contracted players Warburton's gone down a lot in my estimation.
If the choice was go abroad or be centrally contracted he was a bit limited and obviously would prefer to stay in Wales. The not playing of centrally contracted players seems a little harsh if they want to keep Welsh players in Wales. It depends on how dictatorial the WRU are going to be I suppose.
TPRH he's said he only wants to play 20 games a year so thaats 4 Autumn series, 5 in 6N and 2/3 summer tour not very attractive for regions!
He should have signed for us then, he could have rotated with Burger and Fraser.
In all seriousness that is terrible, 11 or 12 Internationals, 6 pool games in Europe (if it ever gets organised) leaves 2 for the league (even our players don't get rested that much)...
In all seriousness that is terrible, 11 or 12 Internationals, 6 pool games in Europe (if it ever gets organised) leaves 2 for the league (even our players don't get rested that much)...
The Saints board decided a while ago that centrally contracted players could end up playing in England as the regions have refused their services. They are trying to take 1st place in the queue for Warburton.
I'm sure Cardiff will take him even for 10 games a year, but I wonder how many other players will follow suit.
I'm sure Cardiff will take him even for 10 games a year, but I wonder how many other players will follow suit.
As Gryff has said, the Welsh regions have taken a hard line in an attempt to dissuade players from signing central contracts. Whether they are as united as PRL is open to doubt - a region may break ranks and accept SW on his/WRU's terms.
IF Saints are planning, as reported, then they are playing with fire. PRL will realise that the RFU will take a dim view of the WRU parking their contracted players in English Prem sides, potentially at the expense of game time for English qualified players. There could be fall-out between PRL and RFU, just as they prepare to negotiate the next tranche of their agreement. PRL may be a lot less lenient with Saints than they were over the North release clause.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
IF Saints are planning, as reported, then they are playing with fire. PRL will realise that the RFU will take a dim view of the WRU parking their contracted players in English Prem sides, potentially at the expense of game time for English qualified players. There could be fall-out between PRL and RFU, just as they prepare to negotiate the next tranche of their agreement. PRL may be a lot less lenient with Saints than they were over the North release clause.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
I didn't know that Gryff, and I understand why you criticised him now.
Warburton has read the injuries thread on this board?
A nice long career with plenty of world cups and Lions Tours?
A nice long career with plenty of world cups and Lions Tours?
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