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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:06:27:13:54:12 by Darraghgirl.

Think we can all admit, since Mark took over we have had nothing but faith in his and the coaching teams decisions. They have been near faultless for over 10 years.

Sadly however, for the first time, it feels there may be some cracks in the decision making. Favoring loyalty of players over form, reverting back to type of kick and chase game, being just a couple.

Given recent performances, this is a great opportunity to really go for it and pick a form team from the start. I would go for something like this:

1. Mawi
2. Dan
3. Marco R
4. Maro
5. Theo Mac
6. JMG
7. Earl
8. Willis

9. Ivan VZ
10. Faz

11. Roti
12. Tommo
13. Cinti
14. Parton
15. Daly

16. George
17. Mako
18. Hoskins
19. Tizzard
20. Isikwe
21. Simpson
22. Loz
23. Goode

Really like that team jimfitz12.
Main change for me would be one of the bench locks, Isiekwe for me, over McFarland. A tough call as I like to see McFarland play as much as possible but I feel we need a set piece and workrate lock to get the best out of the pack and enable Maro to concentrate on being a nuisance!
Davies/Simpson on the bench an interesting call. I suspect we'll back the formers experience but I'm a fan of the laters tempo and he's tended to have influential moments when he's come on for us.
Everything crossed Segun is fit as he adds so much to our attack.
I think if Lozo were fit and to come on I'd want Cinti to stay on and move to one of the wings.

Friday feels very close now, so I hope the team have rested, trained well and sorted the nerves that seemed to beset them in the last performance somewhat.
This is a game Sarries definitely can win but Saints are now a quality team and I suspect Sarries will have to be at their very best to do so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:27:15:16:58 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

jimfitz12
Sadly however, for the first time, it feels there may be some cracks in the decision making. Favoring loyalty of players over form, reverting back to type of kick and chase game, being just a couple.

I'd be quite happy to see the team you've suggested, but can't agree with either of these statements. Team selection has often been criticised on these boards, sometimes with a poster's pet hates/likes taking precedence over common sense, but in the vast majority of cases the coaching team's selections have proven to be well founded. I certainly don't feel there is any sacrifice of strategy due to loyalty. The coaches know exactly (better than us) what each player is capable of and for how long they can maintain a peak on the field. Just one example would be Faz, who has clearly not been100% in the last couple of games, but even at 95% is the best 10 we have and I'm sure is being picked for his contribution rather than sentiment. Likewise Jamie over Theo - what price experience and consistency over pace and unpredictability? Elsewhere (back 3, front row) it seems to me to be six of one and half a dozen of the other, so I'll continue to trust Smallys judgement.

As for the game we play, yes we kick and chase when necessary, but have you not noticed the range of styles over the past couple of months? I think one of our strengths is that opponents never know what's coming their way with Sarries. Having said that, of course we have off days where things don't work out in our favour, but let's hope that doesn't happen in the next couple of weeks.

Other thing I missed is I would still start George but maybe try and get Dan on earlier. Part of the balance is to ensure we have quality and impact coming on from the bench.

Thanks, RogerG, for writing my post for me.

I would like that 23, though I would have a different XV in a couple of places.

I'd be happy to see Lewington or Maitland there if Roti or Parton are off colour.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Quote:

Roger G
Team selection has often been criticised on these boards, sometimes with a poster's pet hates/likes taking precedence over common sense, but in the vast majority of cases the coaching team's selections have proven to be well founded. I certainly don't feel there is any sacrifice of strategy due to loyalty. The coaches know exactly (better than us) what each player is capable of and for how long they can maintain a peak on the field.

As one of the more glass half empty supporters, I think this is a little unfair.

Everyone has talked about this season as a transition season, but there hasn’t actually been any transition at all— and that’s what has raised a few eyebrows when the same team trots out every weekend.

At times it has felt that it is very difficult to get dropped / taken out the team this season. It is difficult not to query what more does Theo Dan need to do to get a start, or query how poor the scrum needs to be for Mako to be dropped. Jamie George and Mako Vunipola are hardly anyone’s pet hates. Very very far from it.

On team above, agree broadly with that in my opinion. I think we need a bigger second row to help our front row’s inevitable struggle - so id play Tizzard or Isikwe, with McFarland, JMG and Willis in the back row. Earl on bench.

Saying all that; I live in hope for Friday night. Saints are comfortable favourites and the best team in the league, but if there is any team that can turn up and ruin their season it’s us (and they’d have been gutted at the result last weekend too because they know that as well).

Quote:

Roger G

Quote:

jimfitz12
Sadly however, for the first time, it feels there may be some cracks in the decision making. Favoring loyalty of players over form, reverting back to type of kick and chase game, being just a couple.

I'd be quite happy to see the team you've suggested, but can't agree with either of these statements. Team selection has often been criticised on these boards, sometimes with a poster's pet hates/likes taking precedence over common sense, but in the vast majority of cases the coaching team's selections have proven to be well founded. I certainly don't feel there is any sacrifice of strategy due to loyalty. The coaches know exactly (better than us) what each player is capable of and for how long they can maintain a peak on the field. Just one example would be Faz, who has clearly not been100% in the last couple of games, but even at 95% is the best 10 we have and I'm sure is being picked for his contribution rather than sentiment. Likewise Jamie over Theo - what price experience and consistency over pace and unpredictability? Elsewhere (back 3, front row) it seems to me to be six of one and half a dozen of the other, so I'll continue to trust Smallys judgement.

As for the game we play, yes we kick and chase when necessary, but have you not noticed the range of styles over the past couple of months? I think one of our strengths is that opponents never know what's coming their way with Sarries. Having said that, of course we have off days where things don't work out in our favour, but let's hope that doesn't happen in the next couple of weeks.

I'm sorry Roger but I'm really not sure what season you've been watching. I think we were absolutely outstanding against quins in both games, and pretty good against bristol away, but have been pants (I'll be mild in my comments) outside of that. Bath away was a great defensive performance. I completely agree with what Jim says.

Our scrum has been an absolute unmitigated disaster all year. Mako has been awful quite frankly with Jamie and judge also part of a scrum that is top of the list for scrum penalties conceded. Any other comment is just one eyed starry eyed thinking. Linked to what jim said, I find the absolute reluctance to even try and change it baffling. Mawi has hardly had a start all year. This can only be down to sheer choosing "Club legends" over performance. Be really honest and truthful and name one positive part of makos game this year. Scrummaging? Definitely not. Carrying? No Tackle count?- possibly.... Im struggling.

Jamie has had to deal with some very difficult things personally this year. If we're talking in terms of pure rugby performance, he's been part of a scrum going backwards and offers nothing going forward. Lineout has been inconsistent too. To his credit his tackle count is still usually good. For me, theo is quite clearly the best hooker at the club. He makes AT LEAST one line break a game which, if we had any form of attack, would be putting us in good positions to score. He makes the top metre count every game despite often being on for only 30 minutes. He also has a very high tackle rate for a man his size.

The biggest example of Jim's point in the forwards for me is billy. It's really sad to see our number 1 number 8 in our clubs history fall so far. Just not even close to the player he once was. Two years out of date. There's nothing wrong with admitting this. We are indirectly tarnishing his legacy by continuing to play him. His interview after the sale game said it all for me. "Yeah we lost but whatever, that happens in rugby".

As for the comment on kick chase. We don't play it "where necessary". We've played it solidly in every game appart from 3. It's just not the winning form of the game anymore. It's very 2018 when we were clearly the best team in Europe by some distance. I was at Tottenham on Saturday and we aren't even in the same hemisphere as either of those two teams. Both games against bordeaux showed this where, predictably, we played a kick chase game to not lose, rather than win. For me this is a very stale, % game that just doesn't work anymore. Tompkins is a good player but just offers very little in attack. Northampton have played a superb attacking game this year, something which we were having huge success in doing at the start of last season. For some inexplicable reason, this just stopped. For me, our current attack has the potential to be really special, as it has shown twice this year, yet week after week we resort to endless up and unders and grubbers as we just don't know what to do with the ball in hand. Honestly, I don't think that the players want to play like this. They're being told to by the coaches. Teams VER MUCH know what they're getting with sarries in my opinion- endless ball in the air.

We have got the squad, particularly next year, to compete with most in Europe.

It's far from a disaster. Two times out of 10 we beat saints on Friday then have a great day out in sw London the week after. Personally I don't see it.

We owe everything to Mark mccall and a few others but this doesn't mean they're immune to critique. With mcall driving it forward we just need a freshen up. Out with the some of the players of the past, some of whom are the greatest to ever wear the shirt, and in with the new, tactics and all.

Maitland is injured isn't he?

Yes, Maitland is done unfortunately, he posted a picture on Instagram yesterday, knee in a full brace

Nice to see a new? poster StonexJim and whilst agreeing with some of your post I think Tompkins is vital to us playing at our best and think he's integral to our attack as well as defence.
I also rate Dan and he and George together are a great option. Is he better around the field? Yes. But as a hooker? No. Given set piece, scrum in particular has been an issue I think that's a priority. In that respect I think his best position is still impact from the bench.

I'm one in the camp of some players being played on rep rather than form we're not talking about the odd game and off performance but over the season.
RogerG is right that ofc the coaches know more about both the game and players than us and yet I'm struggling with the idea that you could justify some selections on performance.
Our territory, kick-chase, pressure game worked for many years and was a huge credit to the coaches and players. A very narrow win v Bath away it hasn't this season with losses to Bordeaux twice, Saints twice, and Bath and Sale at the StoneX.
Quins and Bristol have shown what we can do and whilst I appreciate the significant issues with the scrum re setting a platform I just feel we've not embraced that attacking ambition enough this season.

I don't want us to just chuck it around. Do that and we lose to Saints for sure but when we get numbers in attack or turnover and space is out wide let's see us take our chances as we have done so brilliantly at times this season rather than hoof the ball away in a % play or put in a speculative kick in behind when we have an overlap.

Saints will score tries on Friday, it’s what we do BUT we also concede far too many. If Sarries defence is tight and you can keep the scoreboard ticking over, even if just three points at a time, then it will be a close game that could go either way.
No-one at the Gardens should be taking this game lightly for one moment.

Interestingly when we won there in 2010 we had just changed from a kick everything style to a far more adventurous style. Selection will be fascinating, I’d expect 3 backs on the bench if Faz is still struggling so a big call on which forward misses out.
Toulouse somehow won with a battered scrum but I can’t see us being so fortunate unless we have the game of our season in every other facet.

As an outsider I think starting JG then bringing Dan on against a tiring team works very well.

Think you need Isiekwe or Tiz in 2nd row with Theo on the bench.

Maybe Lewington to start ahead of Segun?

Think you’d be more likely to see Daly on the wing with Goodey at fullback if Roti isn’t fit.

Agree on the first two points tigersimon but Segun has to start if fit. He's the only one of our back three that I feel provides a consistent threat.

Have faith in the Sarries coaches, they have the IP, the track record, the experience. I wouldn't swap Mark McCall for any other coach in the world. He and his team will have done their homework on Saints. They will have spotted vulnerabilities. Saracens still might lose of course but seriously, would you bet against them?

I really have an issue with some of the “in coaches we trust” posts what’s the point in having a forum to debate these things if every time someone says something different to what the coaches do it’s just responded to with “coaches know more than us” yeah they probably do. But that doesn’t mean we can’t share opinions.

As for selection, I think Mako has to be dropped. Segun has to start if fit. I would rather not see Lewington play. He looked so off it against Sale, granted he wouldn’t have had long to prepare but he is a professional.

Quote:

Stumpy7780
I really have an issue with some of the “in coaches we trust” posts what’s the point in having a forum to debate these things if every time someone says something different to what the coaches do it’s just responded to with “coaches know more than us” yeah they probably do. But that doesn’t mean we can’t share opinions.
As for selection, I think Mako has to be dropped. Segun has to start if fit. I would rather not see Lewington play. He looked so off it against Sale, granted he wouldn’t have had long to prepare but he is a professional.

Obviously it's my post that's prompted this, as it was an "in the coaches we trust" post. Of course we should share opinions and speculate about alternatives, but to suggest a bunch of enthusiastic but relatively uninformed fans know better than the coaching team irks me a bit. The coaches don't (and shouldn't) post here to justify their selections but I think we should accept that they have good, and very well informed, reasons for their selections even if we don't understand them rather than assuming they're picking players for nostalgic reasons. If critical posts were trying to understand why one player had been chosen over another then I'd have no problem, but when the general tone suggests the team selection is based on the wrong criteria then it exasperates me.

You only have to listen to the TV pundits (even Austin) to realise there are much more complex things going on on the pitch than most of us mere mortals understand, and picking the players with the right talent and rugby knowledge to deal with those things needs to be judged on more than "form". Alex Goode is a great example - not the fastest or biggest player on the pitch, but his experience means, despite his age and lack of pace, he's usually in the right place and knows where the space in front of him is, yet I've seen posts that seriously question why he's even in the Sarries squad, let alone in a match day 23.

One poster said we'd been pants all season. Well we started the season with most of our first choice still in France but yet were one decent performance away from being top of the league - if that's "pants" then I'll take it every time. I think some of us think we have a divine right to be top of the tree every year but, frankly, I'm finding this season much more exciting than most. I think the champions could be any one of the four semi-finalists - yes even Sarries playing some of the old guard. Actually I'd prefer to start with the old guard (if that's who the coaches think will give us the best chance), who are more likely to have the experience to deal with the pressure, than some of our newer very exciting recruits who will learn loads by going through that pressure alongside players who have been there before.

A fair defence RogerG.
I think Goode is a good! example of the club getting it spot on. He is still a high quality player but is definitely one of those not playing at the levels he has. The coaches have mainly been playing him from the bench this season where his experience is valuable and whilst he has had fewer of his best games this season it is clear what he still offers. It's also clear what Daly adds at FB as a starter. To me the balance there feels right.
We have other first and even bench choices where that clearly isn't the case. Trust the coaches, trust the process but the reality is some of those players haven't been delivering and we've trusted and backed them in all our tough games so what are we thinking is going to change? and on what basis?
I said above we lost badly against Bordeaux and comfortable wins for Saints and Bath were given an air of respectability by a late flourish when we tried to keep the ball in hand at last. Fell short v Sale. All those games were played with the same gameplay and all with the same result. Bath away is the sole result against a top4 team played in that style to hang our hats on.
I don't know about you but in all those games I didn't feel we were entitled to win. I felt we were beaten by the better team BUT I also felt like we didn't fire any shots and that's what I find/found so frustrating.
I really hope I won't feel like that at 10 on Friday.

I'll grab the Oval Insights preview data that's made available to the press to give an idea about 'some narratives of a possible win' [media-cdn.incrowdsports.com]

Quote:

Saracens
• Tom Willis made more dominant carries than any other player (seven) and the joint-most
post-contact metres (24) in Round 18.

Willis has been exceptional in getting onto the front foot to facilitate exits, set up space close to the line and turn retreating scrums into clean ball. He's going to be critical.

Quote:

• Saracens have won the second-most turnovers this season (141), an average of 8.9 per 80
minutes in matches they’ve won.

Given the back 5 we have it's not surprising, but we go *hard* on the ground. If this game is refereed like European knock out rugby then this could be critical. It goes without saying but given the scrum issues, lineouts are where it's at, we've seen a few 'clever' ones in the last few weeks of effectively knock out rugby but traditionally this is where the locker gets emptied of all strike plays.

Quote:

• Saracens have retained as many kicks as any other team this season (81). Owen Farrell has
made more contestable kicks than any other fly-half (47).

The reason I don't usually complain about our kicking game. You can see what the team are *trying* to do with it in terms of either finding space, pushing a teams defensive line around to create space later or trying to advance with the ball via competition, or isolating a player in a challenged place for one of those holding on penalties mentioned above. Our big issue has been that our scrum is tissue paper, so we can't take advantage of knock ons in the kick chase game, which does reduce its effectiveness as a multiplier.

Quote:

• Saracens have the highest penalty count in the Premiership: they have conceded an average
of 11.2 per 80 minutes this season.

And it all comes down to this. Some of the issues are to be expected when you're going hard on the floor, you will have timing issues. But all too much of this is either scrum penalties or just insanity of the sort that you see when players are trying too hard and not *really* trusting the systems, themselves and each other. We can win games when giving away a lot of penalties, but when we don't, we're fairly unstoppable.

This year, when we've been good we've been very good. When we've been bad we've been horrid. A lot like the 2014/15 season where we hammered Quins twice, never looked really convincing in the regular season but put two great games together in a row to win the whole thing from 4th, including a cracker of a try from a young hooker who showed pace to burn ;-) [www.youtube.com] so we'll see!

Quote:

Roger G
I think some of us think we have a divine right to be top of the tree every year

I don’t see any evidence of this.

I think very few of us who have watched this season thinks we will win on Friday night (as evidenced by the comments above) - we can win, of course, and I’d love it if we did, but I don’t think there is any question Saints start big favourites.

I think very few of us thought we’d beat a brilliant Bordeaux team in Bordeaux. I was over there for both, and never believed we were going to win: they were always going to be too good. BUT, that doesn’t mean it isn’t entirely fair to question both selection and tactics for both games considering what happened. Rest assured it could have been an aggregate of 140-0. They stopped bothering after 45 mins both games.

Saying “we were up against a good team but bloody hell were we awful…twice” isn’t saying “oh we should win that game every time.”

As OM said, we didn’t throw a single punch. Not one. That’s the disappointing thing.

Thanks ned that's fascinating stuff.
To be clear (because my posts sound rather negative) we're doing so much well I think I just want to see the attitude we've seen in some games that when it's on we take a chance rather than go for a % play. The Daly play from in our 22 that resulted in Dan's break recently. Farrells from almost on our try line v Sale, equally in their half ball in hand lets see another option than a kick in behind 75% of the time, etc
Thats also interesting but worrying re penalties. As you say it would be interesting to know the breakdown of where they come from and to what degree we can address/control that.

Of course we should debate team choices, but I object to the insistence that some players are being selected only on the basis of past glory and that anyone who can't see that is deluded. That's insulting to the coaches, the players and the supporters.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Having read the Saints version of this thread we seem to be doing it wrong! We should be talking about how those cheating Saints and a compliant ref are going to rob us on Friday 😀

Quote:

AP
Of course we should debate team choices, but I object to the insistence that some players are being selected only on the basis of past glory and that anyone who can't see that is deluded. That's insulting to the coaches, the players and the supporters.

Thanks AP. Pretty much my thoughts, but expressed in a much more concise way. Comments along the lines of "I don't understand why player 'x' is selected" I can live with but "the coaches have got it wrong and should have selected player 'y'" is, as you say, insulting. Maybe there are some questions there for the Fezcast guys in the summer if they can persuade one or more of the coaching team to talk to them.

OM: I do actually agree with you (in case that didn't come through) and it's because the things we're doing well this year don't quite connect and reinforce each other (e.g. the kicking game and bad scrum) that you don't get those 'momentum shifters' where one massive defensive tackle leads to a turnover, leads to a kick, leads to a knock on, leads to a scrum penalty, leads to 22 pressure at the other end.

Because of that you kind of need to try more things - some of the issues we've had in games have come from 'forcing it' out wide that can either lead to turnovers or knock ons (which then have scrum pressure!) but I don't mind that because from a 'trying to win the game' mindset I'm not sure how else we can win against certain teams. I like Northampton so much last year because they're asking the same question we have at our best in the last couple of years:

"We're going to score 40 points in this game. You can't win by kicking penalties, there won't be enough possession in the game for you. If you are not going hell for leather trying to win the game from minute 1 in a race to 40 you will lose"

That doesn't work so well when you lose collision dominance, which is why the pre-season articles about the Northampton team putting on weight, adding explosiveness etc. were so interesting. It really did feel like the process that our mid 2010s team went through after being embarrassed repeatedly in Europe and other knock outs and they've really reaped the rewards. The last stat I'll bring from the Oval insights report for Fridays game:

Quote:

Fin Smith has made more tackles than any other back in the Premiership (160) and scored
the second-most points in the league (132)

All season teams have been trying to find out if he's Danny Cipriani or George Ford (in this case, Ford is the tenacious tackler who's 'good enough'). At this point I think it's clear, he's very good, you won't put him off his game. Don't obsess with running down the 10 channel, it just gets you closer to Courtney Lawes which is a place you don't want to be. It's a mistake we've made in the past - and one I was very pro at the time against the young George Ford who I felt just wasn't big enough - to go back to the topic of this thread, not making the same mistakes again is what you hope to get from having an experienced coaching team!

I honestly don't get why its insulting to anyone as long as comments are phrased in a respectful way?

The coaches admit they got it wrong the season that Tigers won. The players did too, they talked about not firing any shots.
Did they think they were getting it wrong at the time? Im guessing not 🤔
Were those who thought they were and suggested so at the time wrong and insulting THEN but right NOW? (given the coaches now agree their approach was wrong)

Excellent post ned and some very good points especially re forcing it at times leading to scrums which we all know isn't great.
Also agree re Saints (I'm not a huge fan of Squidge rugby but he's done a very good video about how they play and have improved) like you I love how they play and also (I feel) like you I can see this Sarries team being able to play in a very similar way.
Spot on re "targetting" 10 too. Fin Smith is a cracking player. Now that would be an heir to Farrell I'd have been excited about.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:28:12:40:25 by OldMarovian.

OM, my point is simply the narrow one (and Roger does not express it quite right) that it's fine to say in your view that a player should or should not be selected; what's not fine is to impute an ulterior motive to the selection for which there is no evidence and to insist on that when it's pointed out.

Personally, I wouldn't have Billy in Friday's 23 as there are at least seven locks / back rows in better form and I'd have Daly at 15 and Goode on the bench. But if the coaches choose otherwise, then it's not because they want to give the old warhorses a last hurrah.

Enough already!

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

As an aside McCall mentioning this is his 15th year with the club. Well done that man 👏

500 of our 2700 allocation returned suggests supporters not over-optimistic. Will have to add 20% travelling support noise to compensate!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:28:18:17:42 by OldMarovian.

In every year of his 15 in charge we’ve reached a semi final at least! (We’ll count the championship play-off as a final)

Mark's view on the debate (at least, the view he'll tell the press)

Quote:

Still at a loss to explain his team’s sporadic dips this season, McCall implored his players not to be “passive”.
“The peculiar thing for this year about us is the gap between us at our best and us at our worst,” he said. “Trying to figure that out is for another time in a way. What we’ve seen from us at our best is a team that can perform at a very high level.

“We’ve shown that five or six times and, funnily enough, most of those have been away from home – down at The Stoop, at Kingsholm when we were without our World Cup players, at Ashton Gate and at The Rec. We’ve had some really good performances on the road and the encouraging thing is they show what we’re capable of.”

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thats also interesting but worrying re penalties. As you say it would be interesting to know the breakdown of where they come from and to what degree we can address/control that.

If I had to pick a single most-annoying thing to change, it might well be the number of times we concede a penalty and then give away a 10 metres by random players arguing with the ref.

Delete -dup!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:30:11:59:15 by AlanE2.

In reading this thread I think I must be living in a parallel universe. I started supporting Sarries nearly 30 years ago when we were regularly winning things (not) and easily coming top 4 (not). Before second guessing Mark M it might be worth "the experts" on the board absorbing his Wipedia page intro below:

Mark Conn McCall (born 29 November 1967) is an Irish professional rugby union coach and former player, who is the current director of rugby of Premiership Rugby club Saracens. Arriving as an assistant in 2009 and taking charge of the first-team in 2011, he is considered one of the greatest club managers of all time and holds the record for the most English championships won with six Premiership trophies. McCall also led Saracens to three European Rugby Champions Cup wins.[2]

Quote:

Sarakene
In reading this thread I think I must be living in a parallel universe. I started supporting Sarries nearly 30 years ago when we were regularly winning things (not) and easily coming top 4 (not). Before second guessing Mark M it might be worth "the experts" on the board absorbing his Wipedia page intro below:
Mark Conn McCall (born 29 November 1967) is an Irish professional rugby union coach and former player, who is the current director of rugby of Premiership Rugby club Saracens. Arriving as an assistant in 2009 and taking charge of the first-team in 2011, he is considered one of the greatest club managers of all time and holds the record for the most English championships won with six Premiership trophies. McCall also led Saracens to three European Rugby Champions Cup wins.[2]

I don’t want to have a fight but us being rubbish in the mid 00s is totally irrelevant.
Plenty of us go back that far, and many of go back further.
Some of us go back to standing at the side at Bramley Rd, avoiding the dog muck that had been flicked to the side before the game to enable play. I do. So what?

All irrelevant to whether the squad available right now is fulfilling its potential.

And Marks palmares shouldn’t preclude anyone from expressing an opinion either.

Totally agree with wolfpack.

Every time we lose, which we've done plenty this year, I shouldn't have to say

"Well we lost but I'm so grateful we aren't as bad as we used to be"

Threads merged to keep all the prematch stuff nice and tidy

Thanks merge-fairy.
Less than 16 hours till we see the squad.
I am attempting to engage my positivity setting from now on!
COYSarries, you can do it! 😀

Quote:

Sarakene
In reading this thread I think I must be living in a parallel universe. I started supporting Sarries nearly 30 years ago when we were regularly winning things (not) and easily coming top 4 (not). Before second guessing Mark M it might be worth "the experts" on the board absorbing his Wipedia page intro below:
Mark Conn McCall (born 29 November 1967) is an Irish professional rugby union coach and former player, who is the current director of rugby of Premiership Rugby club Saracens. Arriving as an assistant in 2009 and taking charge of the first-team in 2011, he is considered one of the greatest club managers of all time and holds the record for the most English championships won with six Premiership trophies. McCall also led Saracens to three European Rugby Champions Cup wins.[2]

I was actually one of the founding members of the club back in 1876 so therefore I know best. In me I trust



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:29:20:39:11 by chinjy.

Christoph Ridley to referee.

Saracens Men team to play Northampton Saints:

1 Mako Vunipola

2 Jamie George

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Maro Itoje

5 Nick Isiekwe

6 Juan Martin Gonzalez

7 Ben Earl

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Owen Farrell (c)

11 Tom Parton

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Lucio Cinti

14 Alex Lewington

15 Elliot Daly

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Ollie Hoskins

19 Hugh Tizard

20 Theo McFarland

21 Tom Willis

22 Aled Davies

23 Alex Lozowski

Well. We'll certainly now see if playing experience over form is the right thing....

Hope I'm wrong in what I think will happen...

Hmmmmmm

Billy starting is a bit of a red flag for me.

Would probably have preferred Goode to start with Daly on the wing. But that wasn’t an option. Lewington really didn’t look up to it last game out

Nice that Loz is back

6-2 bench also a worry

Just hope we are within touching distance when the bench come on. But this game feels like one step to far

Bit negative but that’s just how I’m feeling about the game

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Stonex_jim
Well. We'll certainly now see if playing experience over form is the right thing....
Hope I'm wrong in what I think will happen...

We’ll be fine as long as there are no scrums and no opportunities for anyone to back chat after a pen

I am good with the team selection given who was available and both teams have gone 6 vs 2 split on the bench as they know the collisions will be enormous. I think the game is very evenly balanced with Saints having the edge in the backs and us in the forwards. I shall travel in hope and hoping it is a repeat of 2015 rather than the heartache that was 2014!

Has Willis started any “big” games for us this season? I don’t think he’s started in Europe, didn’t start either against Quins, isn’t starting tomorrow. Can anyone explain?

Well that's the team chosen. Best of luck to them.

Big Tom should be starting imo, he always gets over the gain line/bounces off the tacklers. As some have said I would have preferred to see the replacement front row starting, I fear that we will be too far behind by the time they come on.

Great to see Loz back, obviously covering 10 as well.

Bit harsh to single Lewi out for being off it in the last game, pretty much everyone was. He played really well for us in first part of season and then didn’t play for ages for some reason. He then came in at the last minute for the Sale game.

I’d love to see us win tomorrow, but looking at their team and how they’ve played this season we need to be at our best and for them to be off it. Good luck boys.

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#wolfpack1
Has Willis started any “big” games for us this season? I don’t think he’s started in Europe, didn’t start either against Quins, isn’t starting tomorrow. Can anyone explain?

Because our coaches have gone down the sentimental players leaving route rather than the winning one. Saints are mentally 10-0 up before a ball has been kicked.

I'm sorry to say I agree with TOKS.
I'm really biting my tongue but I think the coaches have made the teams job much harder with some selections.

This brings an end to Goode's run of starting every knockout game since 2010!

Billy starting seems extraordinary. I will be there on Friday but very much more in hope than expectation. Assume Segun is still injured.

Hell of a risky selection. Billy and Mako both need to have their games of the season to justify selection. Is Owen fully fit? If not having just one guy on the bench who’s not played for 6 months to replace him is a risk we surely don’t need to take if Goodey is available

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The Bard
Hell of a risky selection. Billy and Mako both need to have their games of the season to justify selection. Is Owen fully fit? If not having just one guy on the bench who’s not played for 6 months to replace him is a risk we surely don’t need to take if Goodey is available

Goodey is injured apparently

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OldMarovian
Christoph Ridley to referee.

Thanks - it wasn’t up on the Premiership website when I checked. I’ll edit.

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OldMarovian
I'm sorry to say I agree with TOKS.
I'm really biting my tongue but I think the coaches have made the teams job much harder with some selections.

I shot from the hip and immediately regretted it so I'm glad you agree Sir!

To me Willis is at least as good as his brother who was an integral part of Toulouse beating Ireland last weekend.

And love Mako to bits but I've obviously been watching from a parallel universe this season.

Still even if we get pumped the fact that we aren't as bad as we were 25 years ago is enough for some.

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TOKS

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#wolfpack1
Has Willis started any “big” games for us this season? I don’t think he’s started in Europe, didn’t start either against Quins, isn’t starting tomorrow. Can anyone explain?

Because our coaches have gone down the sentimental players leaving route rather than the winning one. Saints are mentally 10-0 up before a ball has been kicked.

You get told off for saying things like that round here!

IMO I’m not sure it’s sentimentality as much as blind faith: “they’ve done it before for us, they’ll do it again.”

Either way, I can’t pretend to agree with the call.

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OldMarovian
As an aside McCall mentioning this is his 15th year with the club. Well done that man 👏
500 of our 2700 allocation returned suggests supporters not over-optimistic. Will have to add 20% travelling support noise to compensate!

Not so much optimism or lack thereof, as Friday scheduling in our case.

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#wolfpack1

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TOKS

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#wolfpack1
Has Willis started any “big” games for us this season? I don’t think he’s started in Europe, didn’t start either against Quins, isn’t starting tomorrow. Can anyone explain?

Because our coaches have gone down the sentimental players leaving route rather than the winning one. Saints are mentally 10-0 up before a ball has been kicked.

You get told off for saying things like that round here!

IMO I’m not sure it’s sentimentality as much as blind faith: “they’ve done it before for us, they’ll do it again.”

Either way, I can’t pretend to agree with the call.

And, believe me WP, I don't want to be typing those words either. I want to look at a team-sheet and, much as the guys on the Saints board are doing, say that's pretty much the best we could have picked.

But it isn't. Not by a long way.

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Harrow Sarrie

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OldMarovian
As an aside McCall mentioning this is his 15th year with the club. Well done that man 👏
500 of our 2700 allocation returned suggests supporters not over-optimistic. Will have to add 20% travelling support noise to compensate!

Not so much optimism or lack thereof, as Friday scheduling in our case.

Agreed.

There is no way i can take time off work to drive up the M1 on Friday night. I have no doubt Saracens would have sold out their full allocation if the match had been scheduled on a Saturday or Sunday.

For the record, 19 out of the last 21 finals have been won by teams that were 1st or 2nd in the league.
No team that came 3rd has won the final and only 2 teams that came 4th have won the final.

Lets not underestimate the huge task Saracens have ahead of them. All the very best and for those that make the match, enjoy.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

From the Saracens piece:

"Unfortunately Rotimi Segun, Sean Maitland and Alex Goode have all been ruled out of the semi-final with season-ending injuries."

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Well one of our party has already dropped out for tomorrows visit
Tbh it's a bit fairweather-fan for me and his brother is coming instead but the mood of all 6 is deflated after the team announcement.

What I am hoping is this is a plan to ensure we can finish strongly. Whether we're still in touch by that point ...?

Gutted for them all but especially Segun. He seems to have no luck with injuries. Wish them all a good rehabilitation and ofc a great future for Maitland wherever he ends up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:30:13:28:56 by OldMarovian.

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OldMarovian
Well one of our party has already dropped out for tomorrows visit Tbh it's a bit fairweather-fan for me and his brother is coming instead but the mood of all 6 is deflated after the team announcement.

That's very disappointing OM. Whatever my views on team selection (not going there today ) I support whatever team turns out. I can't make it to the semi for private reasons but would have if I could whoever was picked.

I feel much the same Roger but thankfully it won't be a case of one Sarries supporter less in our group.

If there’s one player who will be fuelled by the emotion of the situation it’s Billy. Let’s hope it’s used in a positive way. The injury to Segun is pretty gutting, it massively changes the dynamic of our backline. If he can stay fit it would be great but maybe we need to look at bringing someone else in who can provide a spark in his absence.

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The Bard
Hell of a risky selection. Billy and Mako both need to have their games of the season to justify selection. Is Owen fully fit? If not having just one guy on the bench who’s not played for 6 months to replace him is a risk we surely don’t need to take if Goodey is available

Isn't it laughable that we're saying they need to have the game of their season.

You'd think in a semi the coaches would have picked on form throughout the season...

I'd be delighted to be wrong but I don't see anything then a comfortable saints win and a bit of "I did tell you so".

Won't stop me supporting the boys vociferously of course

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Sarriebone

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The Bard
Hell of a risky selection. Billy and Mako both need to have their games of the season to justify selection. Is Owen fully fit? If not having just one guy on the bench who’s not played for 6 months to replace him is a risk we surely don’t need to take if Goodey is available

Goodey is injured apparently

Segun, Maitland and Goode - all season-ending injuries.

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TommyKentish
If there’s one player who will be fuelled by the emotion of the situation it’s Billy. Let’s hope it’s used in a positive way

Agree. No silly cards. Lots of momentum from carries please.
Let's be honest, if we get a result from this game it will have been a phenomenal performance and the coaches will be thoroughly vindicated.

Well i do hope all your pessimism is well founded. I don't like Saints being favourites. It feels unusual.

As for picking on sentiment, thats ultimately what did for Jim Mallinder. Our best DoR by miles but he couldn't move on from the fading Stars who got him there. Its all to common for coaches to fade and need to move on when their golden generation fades. It will be interesting to see if Saracens or Exeter can rebuild without a change at the top. Its possible ofcourse but unusual.

Hope you enjoy the game tomorrow but hopefully not the result. Time to see if loosing to Leinster was experience or a mental scar.

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#wolfpack1
Everyone has talked about this season as a transition season, but there hasn’t actually been any transition at all— and that’s what has raised a few eyebrows when the same team trots out every weekend.

What percentage of the team do you think needs to be new to constitute the description 'transition'?!

Worth reminding as well that Saracens are still the current Premiership champions.

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Toga

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#wolfpack1
Everyone has talked about this season as a transition season, but there hasn’t actually been any transition at all— and that’s what has raised a few eyebrows when the same team trots out every weekend.

What percentage of the team do you think needs to be new to constitute the description 'transition'?!

I’d argue more than just a new blind side flanker and outside centre!

Parton is new as well, but is he playing if Maitland and Goodey and Roti were fit? Maybe, maybe not.

The spine of the team - Mako, Jamie, Maro, Billy, Faz - is the same as its been for 10 years.

The game plan has reverted to old school 2017 Sarries (but imo without the size or physicality to do it anymore). I’m sure they did it because they knew there would be injuries and World Cup disruption, and it’s fairly easy game plan for players to come in and out of. There’s a logic to that, but it’s based around the same fundamentals - kick chase, territory based, heavy tackles - that (other than last season) have been the hallmark of our game for years (mostly because Faz’s game control is second to none).

Next season, with no Vunipolas, presumably (hopefully?) with Dan as first choice 2, a new captain, a new 10, and a new playing style that isn’t based on Faz’s control because Burke is a totally different player … that will be a transition season.

All I can say is best wishes for the lads. The Carlsberg Block 3 sarries will be making noise the whole way through and doing our best for the team. We just need a performance to be proud of, win or lose. Good luck sarries

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saracensfan62
All I can say is best wishes for the lads. The Carlsberg Block 3 sarries will be making noise the whole way through and doing our best for the team. We just need a performance to be proud of, win or lose. Good luck sarries

Excellent post. I too shall be cheering them on at FGs and as you say it's the performance and commitment that count.

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#wolfpack1

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Toga

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#wolfpack1
Everyone has talked about this season as a transition season, but there hasn’t actually been any transition at all— and that’s what has raised a few eyebrows when the same team trots out every weekend.

What percentage of the team do you think needs to be new to constitute the description 'transition'?!

I’d argue more than just a new blind side flanker and outside centre!

Parton is new as well, but is he playing if Maitland and Goodey and Roti were fit? Maybe, maybe not.

The spine of the team - Mako, Jamie, Maro, Billy, Faz - is the same as its been for 10 years.

I don't think it's true that everyone has talked about this season being a transition one. Lucy Wray, when still CEO, talked about 24/25 as being the transition season.

Given the way most contracts start/end - ie in the close season - we have always known since before we won last year's championship that the bulk of the squad, including the spine of the team were still going to be here in 23/24, so it is not surprising to see them picked (but we can always argue over specifics). JMG and LC were unusual recruits being specific to the situation at London Irish in the last close season.

Cmon the boys. Give us another week of it.

Good luck everybody.

Daly on kicking duty again, Faz not 100% ?

First 10/15 better, but seem to have dropped off again. Still very much in it though

We need Mawi, Dan and Willis to come on and start getting us over the gainline. Bit of a horror 5 mins after the dissallowed try, Saints just moving through the gears to squeeze us.

Worrying Parton injured yet again, Segun also out, we need to get some good wingers who can stay fit.

How was that head shot on Theo not even looked at????

@#$%&.
Just too sloppy

Fair play. Can be proud of that performance.

Vastly superior performance to what I was expecting. I was wrong.

Still think some fundamental flaws need adressing that qeve been saying all year. Don't think saints really got out of 2nd gear. Scrum was usual shambles and the attack was relatively toothless. Think a lot of errors came from an such an attack that just isn't used to playing.

The right team is in the final and there's some hope for next year but for some changes.

Jmg is frankly a disgusting player

Northampton deserved that, fair play, scrum was what cost us that today, did not expect to be that close, so very proud of the lads. I do agree with sarriebone, with the way the game is being reffed how was that shoulder to head not looked at, a yellow all day.

Right team in the final. They were the best team in the league all season.

It’s a frustrating way to lose though. We did turn up, we gave it a go, our defensive breakdown was excellent, our defence was physical, and we actually outscored them two tries to one … but ultimately our scrum cost us the league as we knew it would. It was appalling in the first game against Exeter and didn’t get any better.

We were inaccurate, a lot of dropped balls, a lot of mistakes. And when you have a scrum as weak as ours that’s just so much field position and easy points.

Thank you to all the boys who are leaving. I’ve loved watching you play.

Fair play to the lads, they gave it their all tonight. And well played Saints, deserved. As we have said above, scrum cost us, which is why we have 2 new LHs coming, a new scrum coach and hopefully a good TH. And we need to pick the right captain and not just go to the next most senior player. It has to be someone who warrants their place in the starting 15 and I am not sure that is Jamie at the mo., imho.

An odd season, some great games, some awful games and said farewell to some legends. Good luck boys.

Am looking forward to next season, be interesting to see if we can move on to the next era.

Deserved win for Saints, I never felt like we were in control. Apart from the glaring scrum issue it was the same story and the other two Saints matches, not enough punch in the middle of the field to get us on the front foot so our main source of creativity in Daly was easily shut down. Hopefully Spink will help with that particular issue but we also desperately need two first choice wingers who can stay fit.

It was great seeing Faz come up with a bit of magic despite being injured and I so grateful to him, the Vunipolae and everyone else leaving who have contributed to so many great times.

Next season is going to be very interesting, hopefully a proper pre-season will help as well as the England boys getting some rest. Maro has played too many minutes, I’ve no doubt he will go to NZ but the guy looks knackered. As does Earl who hasn’t been able to hit the heights of the six nations after doing basically all the carrying for the England pack.

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Sarriebone
Daly on kicking duty again, Faz not 100% ?

He had strapping high on his right thigh. (Don't ask how I noticed.......)

Congrats to Saints. Hope they go on and win the whole thing now.

We and the team can be proud of that performance but that's definitely a game we could/should? have won. A game of fine margins as they say and on this occasion we didn't quite do enough and Saints played brilliantly. Fitting that Lawes should get the final turnover.
Kind of bemused that Furbanks shoulder to Dans face wasn't reviewed as looked a fairly clear card but sometimes those things get missed. Ridley otherwise excellent.

Thanks to Farrell, the Vunipolas, Lewington and Maitland for everything. Some genuine legends of the game and they have been brilliant players for us. It's been a joy and privilege to watch them play.

Well done Saints but we pushed you close so you need to play better in the final
Sad for Sarries, great attempt

Stats re scrum penalties were awful, saints had so few all season, we gave them so many tonight

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OldMarovian
Congrats to Saints. Hope they go on and win the whole thing now.
We and the team can be proud of that performance but that's definitely a game we could/should? have won. A game of fine margins as they say and on this occasion we didn't quite do enough and Saints played brilliantly. Fitting that Lawes should get the final turnover.
Kind of bemused that Furbanks shoulder to Dans face wasn't reviewed as looked a fairly clear card but sometimes those things get missed. Ridley otherwise excellent.

Thanks to Farrell, the Vunipolas, Lewington and Maitland for everything. Some genuine legends of the game and they have been brilliant players for us. It's been a joy and privilege to watch them play.

Healey obviously didn’t complain enough on comms for the Furbank incident!

fair result & some very good performances. JMG's tackle on Mitchell absolutely astounding. Faz on one leg apparently but made a decent job of staying involved. Our defence was back to where it should be & really shacked the Saints running game almost entirely. On the day Mitchell & Lawes were absolutely excellent throughout for Saints. Nuff said about scrums elsewhere!

500 Sarries missed out last night. Full house, atmosphere electric and both teams fired up. Great night out. Sadly, 1% less may have given us more.

Off now to watch replay and work out why Mark took Nick I off. From our seats he looked outstandinb.

Enjoyable evening at The Gardens with a great atmosphere and two teams giving it all. The truth is if we could have got parity in the scrum we would have won quite comfortably as we edged the tackle area. No lack of commitment from any of the players and plenty of positives to take into the new season.
Emotional night for both teams with some big players playing either their last game, their last game in England or for the Saints players the last game at home!
Well worth the effort and joys of travelling - the M1 South was shut at junction 13 on the return journey!!

We were a lot more competitive than I feared we might be, particularly with the unnecessary risk of not enough cover for the backs on the bench. Faz kicking off his left foot and leaving all kicking to Daly showed he was clear miles from fitness.
Brilliant atmosphere as it usually is there for big games and very well refereed by Christophe Ridley who is now looking like a top ref.
No complaints about the result and Saints worthy winners.
It’s pretty obvious what we need to do to even remain competitive, never mind get back to the top.

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The Bard
It’s pretty obvious what we need to do to even remain competitive, never mind get back to the top.

Agree. I'd suggest if you stick Davison in Sarries pack we win that game even with all else the same.
Trying to stick with positives we coped pretty well with Parton going off very early (hope he's ok) with Lozo stepping in and Cinti moving to the wing.
Farrell played very well.
We got to see a snippet of JMG and McFarland together and it was great.
We out-scored Saints 2 to 1 and arguably created more chances. The more comfortable we get ball in hand the more those passes and offloads will stick.
Despite the players leaving we have a strong squad and whilst next season looks likely to be a transition there is still lots of reason for optimism.

I was really worried when Loz had to come on so early but he looked like he’d almost never been away

Agree Stumpy. Shame he couldn't hold the pass from Daly on what could have been a linebreak but given how long he's been out and the intensity of that match it was an incredibly impressive first game back.
It will be fascinating to see where and how he's played next season. Also to note that we definitely missed the "punch" Cinti adds to our attack in the midfield when he moved to the wing.
With Tompkins, Hartley, Lozo, Spink, Hallett and Cinti too (if not on the wing) we have great options for next season.

Mixed feelings after the game yesterday.

Firstly best team all tear won and can't complain about that. They deserved it on the night too. Although it was close on tge scoreboard I didn't feel the game was as close. Scrum has been an issue for a while and cost us.

A lot to be proud of though. Everyone fronted up, and I thought Billy looked to be running harder than most of the season. JMG is an unbelievable player and tracking down Mitchell was the highlight to me of the commitment from everyone. The way we attacked the breakdown all night was amazing as we have lost that area in other games.

Overall in an odd way it was a satisfying night, best team all season and on the night won, but there is a lot to look forward to next year as a new chapter opens for the team. If the new fly halves settle in well there is a lot of potential moving forward with few new players coming in.

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Static
If the new fly halves settle in well there is a lot of potential moving forward with few new players coming in.

I just hope Fergie and Louie get on - that chemistry will be crucial.

I feel very optomistic for next season. When we get a scrum that can compete we largely have the remaining components of a team that can win. Obviously that depends on how well Burke fits in and whether we can retain the drive and standards that Owen brought. But we have Mark , the coaches and the senior players to do that. So here's hoping for a decent tight head and an extra wing. I also hope the Riccioni can return to be the player he was before his injury.

Agree MHB but "when we get a scrum that compete" is doing quite a lot of heavy lifting there!!

Great game to watch and just rewatched the game but what a shameful display of sportsmanship from itoje. Sarries player extends his hand to help a saints player to his feet and Itoje slaps it down.

Just watching a little clips package that Saints have put out. Crickey F Smith is an impressive young man. Obviously his own person but his confidence and authority at only 21 are very reminiscent of a young Farrell IMO.
I was oblivious to him at Wuss but impressed immediately when he moved to Saints especially when he stepped up so well when Biggar left early.
Tbh I've seen nothing to suggest that M Smith should be ahead of him in the England pecking order, quite the reverse infact. I hope he gets a proper chance on the summer tour.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:06:06:08:45:25 by OldMarovian.

Agreed - he certainly looks like the next England fly half to me ….

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OTsarrie
Agreed - he certainly looks like the next England fly half to me ….

Some of us have been saying that for quite a while now!

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

I rated Fin at Worcester and touted that Tigers sign him around about the time we signed Pollard rather than going for a short term Marquee signing.
Has certainly stepped up again under Vesty’s coaching.

My concern is that he hasn’t started yet internationally (missed opportunity by SB against Italy or Wales during 6N!)
So he either starts against Japan - Fatigue? & was replaced yesterday
Or he starts for the first time against the ABs!
Definitely ahead of Marcus IMO.