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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:15:23:21:02 by Dragons' Den.

interesting article. i feel for one sat 5,000 miles away that its easy to crticise the club. lets be honest.....

- so the article about me made the team lose to nottingham.... i dont agree and im amazed that this is the excuse

- the internet site was down for a few days due to our supplying company holding us to ransom for a new term which was resolved...sorry not a financial thing but interesting how that lost us a result after investing money into a new site

- late salaries on 2 occasions which people are quick to jump on the band wagon off. there were issues but we have kept the club going

- you didnt get the 2,500 seater stand but got 1,000 which has never been filled and a marque second to none but we could not get 2 tiers due to planning.

after 4 months of helping the club out and being the only team left standing i feel dissapointed with the response. we fight for gates every week and we struggle. do the supporters do enough increasing our gates i ask. we put a new stand up and a new marquee and we cant fill it and the fans prefer to stand... again i appologise. if you guys feel that the players are not performing on the pitch i appreciate it but having a team at all in this league was not imaginable a few months ago.


My team are working hard and you will see radicle changes but please stop these excuse making or negatove posts as we are where we are and get behing us please.vote with your feet and fill the ground up and the new stand.

For the record we could not sign our additional signings as they failed the border criteria.(but you got one international in gordon ross)


i read these blogs most days and have always offered my email for comments. i know that most people on here are real fans but please stop with these posts and as a club we have no excuses to move forward. i hope you all great the new announcements and help make london welsh a force on and off the pitch.



regards



neil

Thanks for your speedy response Neil.

The article was not intended to be read in a negative way but as a reflection of all events during the first eleven league games. To gloss over the problems would be wrong and perhaps in the cold light of day you will read it and view it differently. For example, no link has been made between The telegraph article and the defeat at Nottingham.

Also many thanks for your honesty regarding the wages situation. Members were aware that there had been problems on one occasion but probably not the second one. This openness is appreciated.

The more discussion there is the less doubt and suspicion will exist in the minds of supporters!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:16:09:11:21 by Dragons' Den.

Just to seek some Clarification and make a couple of Comments:

Firstly without Neil's intevention I doubt very much if we would even be in the Championship - Now we are lets stay there please>
I don't really understand Neils last sentence???

"i hope you all great the new announcements and help make london welsh a force on and off the pitch".

Dragons Den - Although like Neil you are also flying the LW flag I can't agree with your comment "The more discussion there is the less doubt and suspicion will exist in the minds of supporters"!

Blogs are very dangerous in that people read what they want to read -
Neil says positive action is what is required not negative comment which I am sorry to say is what seems to be around on these blogs most of the time.

Well said Di. It’s like lower league football clubs isn’t it? A new chairman comes in and injects some money into a struggling club. New players appear, the ground facilities are improved and gates go up. The chairman expects, perhaps, some gratitude for this. Instead he is greeted with suspicion by a group of long-term supporters who feel that the club is much more theirs than his. They are largely anonymous and unaccountable for anything, but they feel that the Chairman reports to them, and if he doesn’t meet their high, but unspecified, standards, he’s in big, but unspecified, trouble.

It’s also a bit like Obama with the Republicans: for some “supporters”, the new guy is not one of us, we’re pretty sure he’s a bad guy, he doesn’t have the same vision we do, we didn’t vote for him and, pretty much, whatever he does, either it’s the wrong thing or it’s not good enough.

I suppose the consolation is that this vituperation mainly comes from three or four anonymous internet hardmen (or sock puppets) but it is corrosive and I’m not really sure what people hope to achieve by it (cue patronising posts about open discussion, we all want what’s best for the club etc.)

Shy - let's not turn this into another mud-slinging exercise. the dragon's den summary is IMHO a valid attempt to summarise the first half of the season and any organisation that's afraid of a little constructive comment and criticism soon decends into the "group think" of the boardroom without taking on board the views of all the fans (not just those telling them how good a job they are doing)

I'm really pleased that Neil came on board and also has the energy and interest to reply to postings on this "unofficial" site from afar. We are making progress but as the article suggests the job's not complete and any change (even for the better) will leave some moaning for a return to the good old days.

I'll keep visiting this site for a consitently up-to-date and informative viewpoint of what's happening both on and off the pitch at ODP.

Finally i'm not sure who you mean by "three or four anonymous internet hardmen (or sock puppets)" Most regular posters are clearly identifiable and in a previous thread "I am spartacus" not only identified themselves but stated where they stood or sat during the games - and we are all i'm sure always avilable to continue the conversation over a beer in one of the many new drinking areas now available under Neil's new regime.

We all have LW's best interests at heart but trying to stifle debate isn't the best way for us to move forward together.

Best wishes

Eddie

Alert the irony police..

There's a group of posters who attribute every glitch to financial problems. See if you can find them in the "Spartacus" thread.

And who's trying to stifle debate?

We've still got to be grateful that we are in existence and in this league, but we can't rest on that, can we. Attendance does have to rise, which presumambly will happen when the rugby at ODP builds a reputation for being consistently successful and attractive.

The matches against Doncaster and Plymouth didn't help in building our reputation all. But i'm sure the lads are working hard on it. Last winter we had that awful patch and still came out pretty well at the end of the season.

So hopefully the two away matches will get the team back on course and ready to rise to the occassion against Nottingham. And I'm sure the off-field team will be doing their bit to match the challenge of Barbarians v New Zealand.

Regards

David 2 (I'm Spartacus - sit near the back more towards the Pagoda end. Got a bit hysterical about the performance on Saturday so apologies to anyone within earshot!!! But I'm calm and positive again now).

Well done Neil for responding, but methinks he protests too much and having a go at supporters isn't on. Fact is some stuff has been achieved and we won't go down given the strength of the playing squad. But is whatever is happening financially, viable in the long term? Is this all made of Straw? Or is it a case of there really is no smoke without fire? Talk of frozen bank accounts and bankrupcy hearings worry me at any time, let alone now. We must stand together...

Much of the negativity on here no doubt stems from the fact that this is an unofficial site. For example, I don't think anybody who ever had any dealings with our former Chief Exec would have trusted him to oversee anything more complicated than an Under Fives blow-football tournament, and had we had an unofficial mouthpiece I think there would have been much more negativity around over the last couple of years. But as the only LW chatpage was courtesy of the official site we were all much more circumspect.

Much of the rumour and innuendo has arisen over on Rolling Maul, where other people from other clubs appear to have their own agenda. There were plenty of rumours last season, but they were generally discussed offline, whereas this year everything is being thrown into the public domain - and it's amazing how many of these threads are started within an hour of the pubs shutting.

In addition, and with all due respect, we know only what Neil has told us about himself, whereas we all knew who Kelvin was and what he was about. A cursory Google tells us next to nothing about Saudex or Arena Events Group, and it's only natural for people who have been watching rugby since the good old amateur days to question why anybody - no matter how deep their pockets - wants to throw bucketloads of cash into the bottomless chasm of professionalism.

Also, it's worth remembering that there is such thing as constructive criticism - it doesn't have to be all bad. But overall I think that the problem is that any positive comment doesn't ruffle feathers and doesn't promote arguments - it's only the negative posts (which I still believe are the minority) that create unrest and consequently take up more webspace.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:16:14:26:15 by Mark W-J.

I don't know if I'm losing my one-time legal objectivity in my retirement but I thought (and still think) that this article was an honest objective attempt to analyse what's gone wrong with the team in the last two games because it's clear that something has. Against Plymouth we were even worse than we were against Doncaster. Yet between both matches we managed to beat Coventry away. There really didn't appear to be any leadership or motivation against Plymouth. And it's interesting that few if any of your other correspondents have come up with an alternative analysis.

I should know better than to argue with lawyers, but with respect to Dockman and DD, I don't see any "analysis" of what's gone wrong in that article. There is a statement that some players are injured and some speculation about the possible thoughts of the players. DD himself says "It's almost impossible to guess from the touchline". It's a reasonable summary though IMHO.

I'd like to thank Abergavenny for knitting his/her eyebrows and muttering darkly about the well-known smoke/fire correlation, bang on cue. I wonder what happened to that £2M in escrow?

My main criticism of the current management would be that they haven't done well in managing expectations. I think the changes at ODP are very good (and so do people from outside the club, according to the other threads here) but because they promised even more, people complain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:17:09:18:45 by Shy1105.

Neil if you're on here mate; who actually paid the first two months wages, you or Kelvin? I hear the latter but you're the man. Oh yes and when are the players getting their rolexes and BMW's and playing in front of 100,000 people in Dubai?

Abergavenny - come on now you're just being mischievous! They were all promised Apple Macs not Rolexes. Although they were also told BMW was about to become a major sponsor. Must be the reason they pulled out of F1 - decided LW would be more value for money presumably.

See what I mean about managing expectations?

If, hypothetically, Kelvin were paying the wages rather than Neil, who cares, if Kelvin and Neil are happy with it?

i think you may find that the boys met lexus 2 weeks ago as the bmws were too expensive and the deposits were too big. apple lap tops were offered to players for analysis and will be coming in time. in terms of the salaries... london welsh paid the teams salaries. Kelvin is a sponsor and has kindly paid his sponsorship to help the club for this year along with other investors and sponsors whether it be a table for the year or a logo on the shirt

Looks like a good answer to me.

Neil,

Well that's great for the boys. Will the Lexus cars be arriving at the same time as the Apple Macs?

I guess BMW are probably re-considering the sponsorship you have discussed with them now that Lexus are involved? Still fantastic news though. Both companies produce good cars.

Thanks for the clarification though. It's refreshing to have such an open dialogue with the club's owner.

PS Good luck with the Steljes case.

Cheers neil for your frankness, and well done Kelvin for keeping things afloat in the short term. It's a shame about the BMW's but that old deposit thing - it normally means they need cash up front which obviously isn't always that forthcoming at Welsh. Anyway, why do they need BMW's? A flash car doesn't always equate to great wealth, although, as an outward manifestation of apparent spending power, some people are often confused about this.

Abergavenny and Brecon: the Batman and Robin of the thread, heroes and role models for us all..

Quote:

Shy1105
Abergavenny and Brecon: the Batman and Robin of the thread, heroes and role models for us all..

Who is Brecon? Is he/she providing a beacon of light on affairs as well?

Shy1105....wake up and smell the coffee mun!

On the other hand if this account from Danny in local paper is true, problems off the pitch appear to be seeping onto it; the players aren't fools, or schoolboys, although 8 am runs in Richmond Park might indicate some think they are.....

(danny Wilson)said: “The display against Plymouth was quite simply disgusting in terms of what we are trying to achieve.

“There was a complete lack of desire and enthusiasm.

“Those were my thoughts when we lost at home to Doncaster three weeks ago, and then we went and produced an excellent display at Coventry.

“I am not going to accept many more performances like that, and if the players were not aware of that before they certainly are now.”

presumably you mean Arabian coffee?

Quote:

Abergavenny
On the other hand if this account from Danny in local paper is true, problems off the pitch appear to be seeping onto it; the players aren't fools, or schoolboys, although 8 am runs in Richmond Park might indicate some think they are.....
(danny Wilson)said: “The display against Plymouth was quite simply disgusting in terms of what we are trying to achieve.

“There was a complete lack of desire and enthusiasm.

“Those were my thoughts when we lost at home to Doncaster three weeks ago, and then we went and produced an excellent display at Coventry.

“I am not going to accept many more performances like that, and if the players were not aware of that before they certainly are now.”

I'm sure once the Apple Macs arrive for the boys to do their video analysis everything will be back on track. Plus the Lexus cars will help build team spirit etc. No need to worry.

Sorry for getting your name wrong Blod. I was confusing it with your secret identity.

If the bad performances indicate "the problems" are "seeping onto the pitch", what do the good performances mean? What about the bad performances last year? Does Occam's razor not help with this?

I'm sure you guy(s) know something, or think you do, but I just don't see much logic in what you say. Basically, someone says something and you sneer, either at what was said or at something that no-one actually said. Have you considered the possibility that people who lack your perspective might not get what you're saying?

I'm sure this is just a failure to smell the coffee on my part...

blodwen and Abergavenny please go away and start a "blog" of your own you really deserve each other.

The facts are simple London Welsh will either continue as a Championship side with funding and sponsorship coming from one source or another
or
everything will again go bottom up and it's back to the dark ages and blodwin and abergavenny can take over.

God forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very interesting Club News BMWs LEXUS Cars for players,most clubs in the Championship would have a problem giving their players Russian TRABANTS.How lucky you are to be so wealthy!

At last some words of wisdom.

Reminds me a bit of someone who was so scared of dying they didn't enjoy their life while they were here.
If Saudex Neil and Kelvin screw up then we are in no worse place than we were start at the season. If on the other hand they provide the goods as I have to say they have so far then everything is rosy in the garden and we can celebrate success both on and off the field.
The basic fact of the matter is plenty have a lot to say about Red Dragon but NO ONE could provide an alternative.

.

Dan - exactly.

There was no viable alternative so everybody, please stop whinging and get behind them.

Ok. Let's see what happens in the run up to Xmas. Perhaps Abergavenny and I are both wrong to be so suspicious. Let's hope so...

PS Shy1105 Why do you think I am a guy?!!!!

I don't see that last week's performance has anything to do with Saudex at all - it was a shocking display by the players, first and foremost. If that was as good as they can play, that's fine, I'm not going to blame anyone who gives it their all. But they are better than that, and as Danny said, there was an apparent lack of desire - it looked like they would rather be anywhere than ODP last Saturday. And by 10 minutes into the second half, I felt exactly the same.

Quote:

blodwen
PS Shy1105 Why do you think I am a guy?!!!!

Yesterday I thought you were a place so things are at least going in the right direction.

The thing is, as stated by other posters above, even if you are right, it's not as if there was an alternative.

Quote:

blodwen

PS Shy1105 Why do you think I am a guy?!!!!

There must be an answer to that !!!!!!

Nope. There's no answer to that.

But I expect to see it discussed at length on the Abergavenny/Blodwen innuendo board...

No I am going to discuss yesterdays court hearing bought by Steljes in an attempt to Bankrupt Neil, wonder where he was right now?

And I'll ask as I genuinely don't know; how hard did people look for alternatives or were they just wowed by the prospect of a rolex wearing, apple mac using BMW driver riding out of the sunset and offering them huge amounts of cash?

And, in the process of so wanting this to be true, suspended disbelief and didn't look anywhere else for money.

Blimey, are people still impressed by Apple Macs?

As to your "genuine" question, I think you'll find that the Directors of the old club put it into voluntary administration, the administrator asked for bids, and the bid from Red Dragon Rugby was found to be acceptable by both the administrator and the RFU. I would like to think that their scrutiny was a little more rigourous than "he's got a rolex, he must be OK." Even it if wasn't, it's still more scrutiny than any previous regime has had.

There was one other bid on the table. It was loudly endorsed by some supporters of the club but demonstrably, and by its own admission, had no money to speak of. I genuinely don't know if it got as far as the RFU or if it was discarded by the administrator. Most supporters appear to be over all that now.

If you think that there's a load of backers out there for clubs like LW and no-one involved thought to look for them, you're probably on your own. IMHO.

I'd be genuinely surprised if there's anything there you didn't know...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:18:18:15:23 by Shy1105.

If I was lucky enough and i do mean lucky enough to win loads of money on the national lottery the very last thing i would be inclined to do with my winnings would be to back LONDON WELSH. Why do i say this????

Prior to the club going into voluntry administration if i had been lucky enough and i do mean lucky enough to win loads of money on the national lottery i would without question have given LONDON WELSH a healthy amount of my winnings.

Ever since Neil Hollinshead has been involved with the club he has received no end of criticism with regards to his financial support and backing of the club.

With all the flack and abuse that Neil Hollinshead has received from various postings on this and other chat pages i am really surprised he is still supporting our club. for heavens sake let him and the other backers do their jobs and support them in the same way that they are supporting us.

Anyone with any spare money would IMO stay well clear of our great club. What we need to do is encourage every possible investor to buy into this great product. Which is. LONDON WELSH. PADDYTAF



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:18:19:46:47 by paddytaf.

In what way is he supporting the club? I mean in reality?

With his financial backing (Yes or no!) What do you think i would be very interested to know. PADDYTAF

Beggars can't be choosers as I think the saying goes. There is no need for this back chat contained in this thread as we can do nothing about the situation.

We all look forward to you continuing to develop the regime Neil, and I don't think you have cause to be so sensitive in your initial response - I think that the original "article" was pretty accurate and balanced, not intending to criticise, but just to be honest. Any info you can give us without breaching confidences is always welcome Neil.

I am sure that once things pick up on the pitch, these spats will wane!

Let's win at Moseley for starters.

(Chilled gogar 3000 miles away)

Exactly gogar.

We would be nowhere without Neil, and the management are doing their best at the moment. There have been VAST improvements on last year already. There will be hiccups, that's only natural but can we lay off for a while, sit back and enjoy the rugby PLEASE?


Bloody infighting. Typical Welsh.

Abergavenny, drop me your email, mobile or name that would be great to know who you are.. i would also like to know what you have done for the club... lets iscuss rather than your slide comeents ... i should stop there.... and by the way there was no court case yesterday....

Quote:

lonwelsh123
Abergavenny, drop me your email, mobile or name that would be great to know who you are.. i would also like to know what you have done for the club... lets iscuss rather than your slide comeents ... i should stop there.... and by the way there was no court case yesterday....

Abergavenny. Please stop your slide comeents. Yew shud no beter.

Neil - best not not drink and post on the web at the same time.

Quote:

Shy1105
Abergavenny and Brecon: the Batman and Robin of the thread, heroes and role models for us all..

Actually we're following this thread quite closely. Gotham City RFC have been in a little financial trouble recently but the Joker has promised to help us out with some investment via his firm based in the middle east.

++
By the way London welsh are playing Moseley in the cup tomorrow evening - anyone interested?

Have we got a team to go up there?
Sorry - found it on other thread.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:19:17:42:08 by adge1.

Re: Half Time Whistle Posted by: Di Bark (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2009 17:21


++
By the way London welsh are playing Moseley in the cup tomorrow evening - anyone interested?

Don't know, Are you? didnt see you post anything about it Di Bach?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:19:22:27:27 by UncleBryn.

God, this is all very dull isnt it.

You've got conspiracy theorists who may or may not be right and then you've got the reactionary anti-conspiracy theorists! Di Bark and Shy 1105.

Whoever is right or wrong i'm looking forward to the "i told you so's"!

It's all very bolshevik splinter group isnt it.

As well as the hilarious interventions from Mr Chairman when he's all tired and emotional!



Honestly didnt know though that the players had been paid late twice.

I don't know about you but it wouldnt inspire me with confidence.

How can that happen if we are rolling in all this Arab money anyway.

Anyway, if Neil is feeling unloved, perhaps maybe the numerous friends of the family he's got called "Taff" Jones, (from the first programme) can remind him we are not all one-eyed provincial ingrates.

Maybe they were the same Taff Jones' we all remember from the valleys who used to eat coal and split the day equally between sheep farming, mining and playing rugby at the pit head.


As far as asking what people have done for the club, i'd imagine some of them have been coming here for quite a bit now.

Thats a bit of a worrying and dismissive attitude.

And they will still be coming when Neil, Kelvin, the current coaches, players and management have long gone off to different clubs / interests.

I suppose thats the difference between paying to watch a club and loving it or of having a position of employment with the club whether current or former.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:19:22:30:20 by UncleBryn.

Ps, hopefully i managed to offend everyone equally with that posting





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:19:22:50:40 by UncleBryn.

Uncle Bryn

probably done enough to be labelled a "sock puppet"

Cheers

Eddie

These smileys are great aren't they?

I don't think Bryn is a sock puppet. I'm not so sure about BatmanandRobin. But I could be wrong. But hey, I don't want to stifle any debates. People are perfectly entitled to discuss things with themselves, especially if it's the only way they can get someone to agree with them.

Anyway, who votes we leave this thread to die a peaceful death and get on with the rugby?

While we still can?

From Royal Courts of Justice listings for tomorrow's Bankruptcy Court hearings (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/list_bankruptcy.htm):


REGISTRAR BARBER


At half past 10

Adjourned Petition
06435/2009 Gorton CA

Petition
08897/2009 Cooney A
08899/2009 Edgeworth JL
08900/2009 Dillon P
08901/2009 Gwynne AJ
08903/2009 Hollinshead N
08926/2009 Callender E
08927/2009 Mahmood SD
08945/2009 Scane I
08947/2009 Vekaria SL
08928/2009 Luthra SK
08954/2009 Hussein M

Apparently there was a hearing the week before last that was brought by a further creditor (approx £300k must be paid by early January).

Another pay day missed yesterday. By Neil's admission in one of his above postings, it's now three out of four that have been missed since the start of the season.

Time for a bit of honesty Neil. The club's members and players deserve it.

Di Bark , Shy 1105?

Your thoughts would be interesting to hear?

It's not about them being deceived, question is what the hell is going on?

Just because someone is petitioning for bankruptcy doesn't mean Neil is bankrupt (I think!).

Have to agree it doesn't exactly bode well for the immediate future though...

Where has all the money come from that has been spent up to now though?

I'm sure there will be an explanation forthcoming from NH in due course...probably some credit problems he is having linked to the Dubai crisis...

Quote:

earlsfieldwelsh
Just because someone is petitioning for bankruptcy doesn't mean Neil is bankrupt (I think!).
Have to agree it doesn't exactly bode well for the immediate future though...

Where has all the money come from that has been spent up to now though?

You are quite right... he will be given time to pay (approx £800,00)

Where has all the money come from? I'm sure the RFU will be asking where their grant has ended up...Kelvin has been paying the players wages I understand.

Closer to £900,000 I reckon, plus costs over the two bankrupcy petition hearings. Poor players, no wonder they can let their heads drop sometimes. Obviously nothing has been set in stone, and maybe Neil has a cunning plan to make everything alright.

We're not the only ones in the do-do...
[news.bbc.co.uk]

Edit - from the official Coventry site:

COVENTRY RFC LIMITED
Written by Andrew Green
Tuesday, 01 December 2009

It is with great regret that Coventry RFC Limited has announced today that it has taken the decision to close the club. Over the past three years the club has tried to overcome many problems and set itself a secure future, unfortunately due to many issues, some inside and some outside of its control, this has not been possible.
The club, like many other sporting organisations, has struggled as a result of the changing economy; however the club has been involved in complex legal problems and as a result doesn’t even have a lease to be at the Butts Park Arena. This situation has arisen despite promises and assurances from various financial organisations to provide the club with a lease after action was taken over a year ago to resolve the problems.
The club simply cannot carry on with such an uncertain future. The club has debts and creditors that it has a responsibility to pay and has carried on because of promises and solutions they would bring. Unfortunately and unlike most companies the club doesn’t have any options to re-finance despite several interested parties/investors offering funding. This is because it doesn’t have a lease for The Butts Park Arena, 8 acres of public land that was given to the club for its financial future some 6 years ago by Coventry City Council.
This is a very sad day for rugby in Coventry; however the club just can’t ignore the present situation regarding its debts and creditors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:12:01:16:08:24 by Mark W-J.

Neil's not involved with Cov as well is he?

I think we can fairly easily put to bed the idea of a fully professional second tier in English rugby now.

Indeed; the sheer absurdity of putting up extra stands and expecting people to fill them just like that is amazing. If the premiership clubs need a feeder league they and the RFU should fund it; on other hand why should they bother when they can just pull in foreign players more cheaply?

Tomorrow in court?

The premiership clubs were against the idea in the first place - it was RFU driven. However there is nothing you can do to stop ambitious club owners overspending..witness Lon Scottish, Richmond etc etc. It's not just a Championship problem either - only Leicester, Saints and poss Quins are able to cover costs...

I would like to put the record straight re London Scottish & Richmond with the article below cut from Wikipedia. For the Scots it was the White Knight who let them down.

"The club turned professional in 1996 and was playing in the top division as recently as 1999. The club was placed into administration in 1999 and a nominal merger with London Irish took place. During this period Tony Tiarks bought the club for £500,000 in 1996. In the summer of 1998, Scottish, co-tenants of Richmond at the Athletic Ground, were promoted to the top division via a play-off, and Tiarks forced through an ill-fated groundshare with Harlequins and London Broncos at the Stoop. By the halfway point of the following season, Tiarks was disillusioned and discussed selling Scottish's place in the Premiership to second-division Bristol. He bailed out in the summer of 1999.The original amateur club rejoined the RFU leagues at the bottom of the pyramid after effectively being relegated 9 divisions by the RFU. The club has since progressed back up through 6 divisions in 9 seasons to National Division One for the 2009-2010 season. The club shares the Athletic Ground with Richmond."

It would appear that once again people seem to think that insulting our clubs owner is the way to make the club successful! I’m sure that NH is probably looking at Coventry with green eyes tonight and thinking “if only!”.

The blog spooks who in their wisdom have the power, intelligence and resources to watch every move others do should perhaps look into the mirror instead of through the window and consider the damage they are doing to their club by continually focusing on the negative and endlessly looking for a reason for it to fail.

I expect that if the Reapers had their way the fantastic stand and hospitality areas would be replaced by stocks and gallows and NH et al would be hung drawn and quartered for their treachery and crimes against the Dragon state. I’m sure you would all find that spectacle more engaging as your interest certainly doesn’t appear to be on the game.

My limited understanding of the clubs position is that the management TEAM are working tirelessly to keep our great club moving forward. This may be with the help of Mr NH, club sponsors or even new investors.

NH took the club on when it had failed.. he has delivered to a point (I’m not suggesting all has been perfect) but you know what, he’s giving it a damn good go. He’s got good support around him and a dedicated TEAM to work with.

The club can not expect NH or any other individual to pick up the bill indefinitely and therefore needs the support of the supporters (the clue is in the name)to make the club a place that people want to associate with.

I’m my humble opinion it’s imperative that each and every SUPPORTER gets behind the club and those attempting to keep it from being relegated to the annuls of rugby history.

That may simply mean turning up to the games, bringing a friend along for the first time, helping to find sponsors or even dare I say it getting behind the players and management and supporting their efforts!!!

Negativity will only worsen the situation and push people away. If I were a potential investor in the club and I looked at this blog I’ll tell you now I wouldn’t want to place my hard earned cash with a team who's SUPPORTERS turn every problem the club has into a witch hunt.

Mr NH I’ll do my bit and buy a ticket for the new stand at least it has a roof to protect me from the vultures hanging out on the left wing plotting their revolution. And although it really is none of my business I wish you all the best for your day in court tomorrow, no doubt if I stay logged on ill know the verdict before you do!

Whilst NH may have his own reasons for owning the club (he's not doing it out of love for the riches it’s bringing him!) I fear there are other people with their own agendas driven by jealousy, hatred and ignorance.

If NH feels a little taller when he steps out of bed in the morning because he can proudly say that he has an involvement in something he feels passionate about then good on him. He wasn’t born a Welsh man so it’s the closest he’s going to get.

I have seen vast improvements in the way the club is perceived by others this year and that in its self is a big step forward towards the ultimate achievement. Half the battle is creating a positive vibe around the club, making it the place to be seen the place to get seen. People may not realise that there is a lot of hard work going on in the back ground raising the profile of the club again and next year in particular is a year to play on and to get real enthusiasm back into the rugby fraternity for our great club with its great 125 year history.

How many clubs can you walk into and meet JT, JPR, Mervyn Davies and other names that are willing to help the club be great again. How many clubs in our league can boast involvement from the Prince of Wales as well as a Saudi Prince, this is something to be proud of and positive about and will even by association realise opportunity for the club if it is handled correctly.

From what I've seen whilst as any business man NH is having some difficulties or should I say disagreements with other associates, and lets face it (not drawing any direct comparisons here) which people facing entrepreneur hasn’t, even the greats such as Branson have had a few little problems along the way! (As I said no direct comparison sorry NH). NH is pulling the business world’s attention towards our club and additionally from what I am lead to believe the sporting worlds focus towards our club as well.

I appreciate that this may not translate into cold hard cash right now but it could and the difference is, if it does it will be sustainable cold hard cash from multiple sources instead of individuals bleeding themselves dry to keep players on the pitch.

However every article posted on the web telling the world that the club has financial issues is another nail firmly driven home. What business or supporter wants to hear that?

There is still much to do on and off the pitch and unfortunately because of the way the world works today off the pitch is almost as critical as the game. We have to encourage people and businesses to get involved with our club. To sponsor our club and to spend money on our club. If NH is at the front of house making this happen then he is doing his job as far as I can see.

Perception is everything and if we are perceived as a bickering bunch of welsh _____ then who’s going to take those empty seats next to me in the stand?

I have to ask you Abergavenny what has this man ever done to you? are you actually a hidden kilt wearing Scott’s man bitter and twisted because you had to stump up for the bar bill in the end? I've seen lesser persecution in a Scorsese movie! Mun

Whilst NH may not be the Messiah in your eyes, the players did get paid again this month and therefore the collective club management and sponsors should be thanked and that includes the club owner. At least we get to see another month of Rugby and you get to stay up past your bed time writing on here!

I simply feel that if people have constructive comments, be it criticism to make about the running of London Welsh, Ways to improve its game or something interesting to tell the SUPPORTERS then please feel free to share them with us. If this blogg is to be used as a stoning ground then what’s the point?

Poor old JT still has to write the match reviews! I bet he'd be able to get someone to write the court review tomorrow. It’s all about priorities.

Open dialogue is good but failing to understand the wider consequences of what one writes is not.

I've been behind NH all the way since the summer - lets face it, without him there wouldn't be a club right now. The developments at the ground have been great and having sampled the hospitality a couple of times, I can safely say that is brilliant as well. Although the team has had a couple of ups and downs, fortunately we seem to be back on track there in the last couple of matches too.

However, regardless of accusations of hidden agendas, etc, you surely can't blame supporters for being a little bit worried when the owner of their club is up in bankruptcy court? Other clubs in the league are demonstrating pretty well how difficult it is to stay afloat at the moment and we all know from recent experience how it feels to be heading in that direction.

Love the Joker Blod.

London Welsh Supporters?, you are welcome to join Di Bark and I in the counter-revolutionaries (I'm assuming Di doesn't mind.) I agree with all you've said.

I also agree with the posters who say that the Championship doesn't make financial sense.

I don't really want to speculate on NH's motives. If they are just self-aggrandisement, that doesn't necessarily make him any different from any other big investor in any club.

If the worst comes to the worst and the club is bankrupt, we are still no worse off than we were in July. The previous administration ran the club into the ground with nothing to show for it. At least we have a few emolluments (and not in the Lloyd George sense) to show for it this time.

And again, in that event, some of us will no doubt print t-shirts saying "I told you so", but while they're doing that, I will be thinking "If they knew all this, why didn't they do something about it, instead of @#$%& on a chat page? What were they trying to achieve by that?"

Let's not forget that there was no alternative. If anyone has any better ideas, now would be the time to air them. Perhaps the PGG consortium, altruists to a person, will come galloping over the hill with an injection of cash, if such a thing becomes necessary. I expect they're checking down the back of their sofas right now.

And finally, some people might infer from some of the remarks above that the posters think that the directors may have misappropriated funds from the club. I am not saying that myself, nor am I saying that this was the intent of the posters concerned: I'm just saying that it's a possible inference. I have no legal knowledge but those posts seem slightly suspect to my ignorant eyes. Still, if the posters concerned worked in trades where legal knowledge is required, they would know better than I.

I agree totaly that being vigilant and having a concern for the clubs future is one thing. I'd expect nothing less of any true supporter and I certainly do not subscribe the big brother way of thinking where censorship rules.

However attempting to ridicule`and undermine the clubs owner and therefore by default its management, players, staff and those who fund the club is a completely different thing.

Hearsay conjecture and title tattle should be left for the club house not posted on this supporter’s web site for all to see. It’s as damaging for the club as any court case, late payment or badly played game.

I simply ask that people consider what it is they expect to achieve by writing in a way that de-motivates all, drives people away from the club and will only exasperate the situation. By all means conduct open, constructive, quetioning dialogue but at the same time get behind our team and ask what WE can do to help it not hinder it.

Quote:

LondonWelsh Supporters?
Hearsay conjecture and title tattle should be left for the club house not posted on this supporter’s web site for all to see. It’s as damaging for the club as any court case, late payment or badly played game.

Well our (sometimes tired and emotional) 'owner' feels free to post his thoughts on here - why shouldn't the rest of us?

This is not the official Lon Welsh website but a free and open forum...

As it says on the header 'unofficial and independent'.

If I was playing for London Welsh I would have to ask myself whose side are the supporters on. Enough of this sniping lets concentrate on supporting the players and the club.

I do understand that our main backer may have some financial difficulties, but that is not unusual in todays difficult economic climate. However look around Old Deer Park, what do you see, well the last time I was there, there was a new grandstand and a hospitality suite, this famous old ground finally looked like it was moving into the Twenty First century. And where did the money come from?

I like everybody else who has posted on this site wants to see the club go forward and as much as I agree with free speech and the right to express ones opinions I do feel that some of the comments posted this site should have been left to the clubhouse after a game. There is a right place and a wrong place for comment and this site is not the right place for what journalists used to call'knocking copy'.

So on Saturday we play Nottingham, lets do two things. Firstly turn out in large numbers to watch the game and second make our players feel that the supporters are on their side and not preoccupied with the financial problems of our main backer.

At last some sense exilied gog,here,here! for what it's worth, everyne needs to get behind the management and players for the rest of the season and stop the carping. As for the gloom mungers, the championship will succeed and the rewards will be felt in the longer term for all clubs, as this league is much needed in terms of offering young and older players the chance to shine. It needs a sponsor of some weight to get behind it and promote it fully. Having watched the likes of Bath, Worcester, etc. I see better rugby here most of the time!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:12:03:14:14:45 by londonbound.

No one posting today.Is there a "BLACKOUT" on the site.

Posted on the Pirates site by 1Spy:

Why would you want to own a RUGBY CLUB? new
Posted by: 1spy (IP Logged)
Date: 03 December, 2009 10:00


After reading the "bad mouthing"of the owners of BEES LONDON WELSH and now COVENTRY on their Forums iam surprised any one wants to invest millions of their money into Rugby.No wonder the RFU and Clubs find it difficult to find sponsors.Sponsors do not want to be involved with infighting and bad news.Fortunately that was killed off at the Pirates 2 years ago when the fans backed Dickys "Pirates Future" plan and the dinasours were defeated.

There's no Blackout. I think fans are all very sad at the Bankrupcy talk and the possibility that NH's "investment"may not work. No news of yesterday's High Court Bankrupcy division hearing, but the one held last month apparently gives him until early January to pay up £300,000 odd or be declared bankrupt, which, I guess, will mean he can't be a director of a rugby club (or Saudex, but that isn't a real entity anyway). So no Blackout, just a lingering sense of doom really

Quote:

Abergavenny
I think fans are all very sad at the Bankrupcy talk and the possibility that NH's "investment"may not work.

Some posters are sadder than others I expect. Some posters seem quite triumphant. And some posters are sad at the perpetual "carping", "bad mouthing, "knocking copy", "hearsay conjecture and tittle tattle" as well.

Does anyone actually use the word carping?

They do when it adequately describes what has been happening.

Good post, Shy.

Quote:

Abergavenny
There's no Blackout. I think fans are all very sad at the Bankrupcy talk and the possibility that NH's "investment"may not work. No news of yesterday's High Court Bankrupcy division hearing, but the one held last month apparently gives him until early January to pay up £300,000 odd or be declared bankrupt, which, I guess, will mean he can't be a director of a rugby club (or Saudex, but that isn't a real entity anyway). So no Blackout, just a lingering sense of doom really

Yesterday NH got a stay of execution until 12th January. Then back to court for Bankruptcy?

Quote:

Abergavenny
Does anyone actually use the word carping?

Londonbound does above, hence the quotes.

Shy1105....Say NH is made bankrupt sometime between Jan 7 and Jan 12, you definitely have 35 to 40 more days of slagging off realists before the end game is on you. PS> read the children's story "the emperors new clothes." You might just get things then, but if not watch the film of James Thurber's short story "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty", which was first published in The New Yorker on March 18, 1939. Then you might just get what people on the board are going on about. Or not, as the case may be. That is your perogative.

Bit discoraging all this.Just started coming to London Welsh this season,liked the feeland the set-up of the place,and being part Welsh(and proud) felt at home. So, am i wasting my time getting enthusiastic about the club,or should i just give up now?

Quote:

Abergavenny
Then you might just get what people on the board are going on about.

I like think I know exactly what you are "going on about" but I'm not sure what success looks like for you. Assuming that Dragonhawk's post is genuine (and if it isn't, I'm sure it's representative), is that what you want to achieve?

If RDR becomes unable to fund the club for any reason, aren't we in the same position we were in in July. It wasn't an "end game" then, for the club at large.

Anyway there's a PM facility if you want to get personal. No need to inflict that on other people. Mun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:12:04:08:36:33 by Shy1105.

Dragonhawk

I could copy and paste your post and use it as my own. Whatever happens, I hope we are living proof that if people come to LW, it gets under the skin very quickly.

Don't give up people. The fun is just beginning.

Not giving up Shy. As I said, it's under the skin now. Will be there tomorrow cheering the boys on.

Quote:

Shy1105

If RDR becomes unable to fund the club for any reason, aren't we in the same position we were in in July. It wasn't an "end game" then, for the club at large.

This seems to be an odd position to take? London Welsh could have decided to continue as a semi-amateur club I believe. You would rather it has it's name dragged through the mud, it's RFU money used mysteriously at best just to scrape through for 3 or 4 months?

Just grab the nearest lifeline without any real due diligence. (despite Lon Scottish directly voicing their concerns about the current owner). I must hand it to him though - he really has got a talent for hoodwinking people...including plenty on this board.

I'm just going by the judgement of the administrator and the RFU. I am, perhaps naively, assuming that they demonstrated due diligence.

If anything has "dragged the name of the club through the mud" I would say it was the winding-down of the old club (which also attracted lots of suspicion on the web). There's been plenty of name-dragging on this forum, just not the club's. If, hypothetically, we have been deceived, I like to think that people would understand.

So is that what you want then? A "semi-amateur club"? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just trying to understand what you're advocating.

Quote:

Shy1105

Quote:

Abergavenny
Then you might just get what people on the board are going on about.

I like think I know exactly what you are "going on about" but I'm not sure what success looks like for you. Assuming that Dragonhawk's post is genuine (and if it isn't, I'm sure it's representative), is that what you want to achieve?

If RDR becomes unable to fund the club for any reason, aren't we in the same position we were in in July. It wasn't an "end game" then, for the club at large.

Anyway there's a PM facility if you want to get personal. No need to inflict that on other people. Mun.

Just to assure you, the post,and my concerns are genuine.

Quote:

Shy1105
I'm just going by the judgement of the administrator and the RFU. I am, perhaps naively, assuming that they demonstrated due diligence.
If anything has "dragged the name of the club through the mud" I would say it was the winding-down of the old club (which also attracted lots of suspicion on the web). There's been plenty of name-dragging on this forum, just not the club's. If, hypothetically, we have been deceived, I like to think that people would understand.

So is that what you want then? A "semi-amateur club"? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just trying to understand what you're advocating.

I think the RFU failed with their due diligence (done hastily over a weekend I recall) and the administrator will also have some very awkward questions to answer if this 'owner' which supposedly proved it had funding for the next 2 years is made bankrupt...

All I have been advocating for months is a more critical look at NH and his credibility....

Quote:

blodwen
the administrator will also have some very awkward questions to answer if this 'owner' which supposedly proved it had funding for the next 2 years is made bankrupt...

That's certainly metaphorically true, though I don't know if there's any comeback on the administrator if he got it wrong. Do you have to have two years' funding to satisfy the administrator, or was that an RFU requirement? The whole interface between business law and sport regulation is messy.

Quote:

blodwen
All I have been advocating for months is a more critical look at NH and his credibility....

Well, I'd say "mission accomplished" on that one. There have been some very critical looks indeed, though sometimes I think we've seen the conclusion rather than any evidence that may exist. But I'm not still not sure where you'd want to go after that look, or who you wanted to look. And there's evidence of some positive change at the club as well.

And let's not forget, NH is not the only director of RDR, and it's RDR that owns the club (isn't it?)

Anyway: match day tomorrow..

It would appear that the stand and marquee are to remain for a little while longer and the stocks and gallows held at bay. So for one I will be taking advantage of this on the weekend and enjoying a good game of rugby accompanied by a few beers and good people.

Ill be keeping my eyes open for Abergavenny and friend who no doubt will be easy to spot on the side lines with their cloaks and scythes conducting their vultures to pick at the bones of their beloved club!

I’m sure that if you asked nicely, NH would be more than happy to welcome you into the fold at the pre-match dinner tomorrow so that you can have an opportunity to discuss your point of view over a spot of lunch with him?

NH what do you think?

Or perhaps Abergavenny you will be busy across the road at the London Scottish ground supporting them instead!!

I for one am glad to see that NH has been given time to sort out what ever it is he has to sort out and we should all take some solace from this as obviously things are not as simple as they may seem.

And lets not forget that although someone may take proceeding to make a person bankrupt, it does not necessarily mean that those individuals are correct in their actions. If NH has decided to fight his corner in some financial dispute then good on him and I as you I suspect would not want a club owner who rolled over and opened his wallet every time money was demanded.

There are many reasons why NH might find himself in this situation and yet those with motives unclear to me have chosen to immediately condemn this man without trial.

I guess that what ever the outcome may be in time, NH and the management team will be working to ensure there are alternatives available to the club if necessary.

Alternatives that don’t result in relegation to the bottom of the leagues and having to resort to becoming a semi pro club. Lets face NH appears to be devoted to the club, he's had enough chances to bail out with good cause through a lack of support. So I doubt he would simply close the gates and walk away as has been seen elsewhere.

I believe in the club and trust in its management to do the right thing, to be proactive in their quest for the premiership and with great resolve determination and luck to ultimately succeed in that quest. And when they do we will be able to look back at the bad old days and say I told you so doubting Thomas.

And in the mean time we can help the team achieve this by showing them support. Encouraging them on and off the pitch and making them feel valued, wanted and respected.

We can do this by stamping out those who fear our success, those who need darkness and despair in their lives to give them something to moan about. Those with a green eye and cold hearts.

We can do this by being united in our intentions and by voicing our heart felt opinions and showing the world outside of London welsh that we believe in our club and what it stands for.

or

We can listen to gloom gloom dribble dribble gloom gloom as well as accusations and innuendo from those with anal retention.

I refuse to be sucked into their infantile world where rage and frustration is their only objective, so as this is a democratic web site I believe? I propose a vote, all those in favour of ignoring bloggers who have nothing but negative comments to make carry on typing. All those in favour of continuing to listen to or wishing to offer uneducated, mindless, negativity look for the off button on your PC and press it hard.

In total agreement with the previous poster.

Let’s stop this persistent whinging from a minority of 'supporters' who didn't get their own way in the summer. I guess they would rather London Welsh be playing Sudbury, Maidstone or Harrogate because if they got their way we could end up down at the bottom again. It’s a long time since Old Deer Park welcomed a Welsh club and I for one am looking forward to the visit of Llanelli.

It is for the majority of London Welsh supporters to say to this irresponsible minority enough is enough. Support London Welsh or go, it is really is as simple as that.

I'm not sure I understand your voting methodology there LWS. I do agree with a lot of the sentiment in the two posts above, though I think "if you don't like it, leave" is a bit strong. Perhaps the mods should lock this rather tired and bilious (and possibly libellous, he said, uneducatedly) thread. That's what happened on the League 1 forum when their LW thread descended to this level.

What do you think DD?

Threads tend to close themselves when a discussion has run it's course. lt seems that both sides still have plenty to say on this topic and therefore it is likely to keep going for a little while yet.

As for libellous comments, there has been nothing posted so far that would cause the slightest concern.

If anyone is fed up with the comments on this board but hasn't got the will-power to overcome the addiction on their own then send a PM and a voluntary ban can be imposed. Posting - together we can quit it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:12:04:18:18:22 by Dragons' Den.

Hmmm,

well an interesting thread to say the least, lots of angst and anxioussness and a little stirring of the pot.

Simple truth is that most matters are a matter of public knowledge, the rest are pure speculation.

I hate to say this, but threads like these are damaging the REST of the club, you know U5's up to Wizards.

Funnily enough the club is not just the 1'st team, there are huge numbers of players outside of those heady heights that YOU are damaging by having silly threads like this, and I have yet to see or speak to anyone with such passionate views when we have also been playing or been contacted by concerned parties asking what the vast bulk of the club is up to.

I do not pass any judgement on anyone or anything, we, the CASC would much prefer for matters to run their course than debate matters in a public forum where people can hide their true identities.

So its fairly clear that you will not get answers on this medium. You are damaging the CLUB by having these threads.

Please desist and let matters run their course as funnily enough YOU wont be able to influence or change anything that happens, just make things harder for the rest of the club.

In closing, the CASC runs everything outside of the 1'st team, so if you care so passionately about the club, come and offer your services to us, we would welcome your input. If not, kindly shut up.

Thanks

Ian Horgan, co chair of LW CASC, Manager, Coach, Chief cook and bottle washer and sometimes player for the Wizards, contactable on ianhorganrugby@yahoo.co.uk

Oh and my edit is thus, perhaps this forum should be entitled London Welsh RFC 1st team unofficial chat room NOTHING to do with 90% of the rest of the club.

( not a reflection on the people who have set this up as they have been great adding our links etc)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:12:04:21:09:46 by Ian the Wizard.

Quote:

lonwelsh123
in terms of the salaries... london welsh paid the teams salaries. Kelvin is a sponsor and has kindly paid his sponsorship to help the club for this year along with other investors and sponsors whether it be a table for the year or a logo on the shirt

Somehow Neil you forgot to mention how much hard cash you yourself personally have

a. invested so far to boost the coffers and
b. plan to pay in over the next 6, 12, 24 months to support a business which last year burned around £1m more than it earned ...

C'mon don't be modest - an awful lot of supporters really want to love you, but they also want to know what's left in your pockets after two bankruptcy hearings ordered you to pay out north of £900k plus costs by 12 January... or should the Welsh faithful start looking now for an investor with hard cash?

Clearly "neighbour" - another "new" name- can't read Ian's spot on posting above. Ian is absolutely right.

And if we need more money at some stage in the future, any potential investor will look at this website and could well say that its not worth it given the vitriol thrown by a small group. I won't call them supporters, because they are damaging the club.

So, give it a rest. We don't need it.

All very sad that a great club with great history is being dragged through this because the rfu wanted clubs to run before they could walk. Why could t clubs stay semi pro and let the ambitious few with good buisness plans and money fight for promotion for a few years until everyone was ready? Another question which someone might be able to help with,I have visited odp for the last 3 years with Exeter and love it. This year I have my dog and I was wondering like Moseley can you bring them to the ground?

Chief,

unfortunately you cant as every inch of green is used for sport at some stage.

Interesting nobody bothering to congratulate the boys for a job well done yesterday. The weather held fast for the game as did our scrum and passion especially in the first half. In my opinion the second half lacked a little luster but the team kept pushing forward to a succesfull result.

I had the pleasure of meeting with some of the player's partners and its funny how they also echoed the thoughts of the positive ones on this thread. negativity is damaging to all including our players. So lets show the boys our appreciation and thank them for their efforts, we have a good chance of being up there with the best this year if we can keep the focus on the rugby and keep the fire in our bellies. Well done team.

Hear, hear. Well done lads!

LWS - 'Interesting nobody bothering to congratulate the boys for a job well done yesterday....'
Yes they have - including you - on the other thread!

Negative comments on the Championship are not just confined to this board - you'll find loads of postings on rolling maul forum and individual club's sites.

I agree that this negative baiting (almost witch-hunt) of Neil should stop. Who on earth expects him to post his personal financial details for the view of anonymous posters on an unoffical chat site. Would you?

I don't agree that this citicism would put off any potential investors. it's common knowledge that Coventry and Birmingham have followed us into administration and Nottingham have been given notice to quit by the new owners of the County ground. How many others will follow before the end of the season is open to conjecture.

IMHO the problems stem from the RFU who have encouraged a full time professional second tier without the apprporiate funding in place. No sponsorship for the Championship or B&I cup; no tv exposure and little national press coverage are more likely to discourage likely investors than the negative ramblings of some "sock puppets" on this board.

The England vs.Wales Twickenham fixture has always been a good cash cow for the club over the years. It will be interesting to see what plans the new marketing team will put into place to help maximise our revenue from that weekend.

Eddie
ps - did my bit for club funds on saturday by bringing two friends, buying a programme, bacon butty, pints of Fullers during the game and Guiness afterwards and look forward to making a similar contribution on the 19th