England
Sale to Host England Saxons Opener
By Kath 17/12/08
December 17 2008
ENGLAND Saxons will kick off their 2009 campaign against Portugal at Edgeley Park, Stockport, the home of Sale Sharks, on Friday January 30 (kick off 8pm, live on Sky Sports). The following week they travel to Dublin to take on Ireland A at Donnybrook on Friday February 6 (kick off 7.30pm).
Sale to host England Saxons Opener
England Saxons have been unbeaten for two years and last season recorded back to back victories over Ireland A (31-13) and Italy A (15-38) before retaining the Barclays Churchill Cup.
England Saxons - Barclays Churchill Cup Winners 2008
Said Stuart Lancaster, England
Saxons Head Coach, "England Saxons
is crucial in helping us identify those players with the capability and
mentality to play international rugby.
"With two rearranged Guinness Premiership fixtures (Gloucester
Rugby v London Irish and Harlequins v Northampton Saints) scheduled for the day after, the match
against Portugal will see us
field a young England
side, giving us a good opportunity to see as many young and talented players as
possible.
"Sale
Sharks have done a great job in attracting Friday night crowds. I've been there
on several occasions and always enjoy the excellent atmosphere.
"The Saxons team last played there in May 2007 when they opened their
Barclays Churchill Cup campaign with a 51-3 victory over the USA. This match
is another great opportunity for rugby fans in the north to enjoy
representative rugby."
Excepting sevens, the two nations have never played each other at senior level.
Portugal are ranked No 23 in the world and are among six European countries
hoping to fill the two automatic Rugby World Cup 2011 places, with the highest
placed nation joining England in Pool B.
With four crucial matches in the three months that follow, the first against
Russia on February 7, the fixture against England's young guns is an important
part of Portugal's preparations. Having qualified for the Rugby World Cup for
the first time in 2007, when they beat Uruguay over two legs in the
repecharge match, they will be hoping to make it to their second RWC.
Said Nathan
Bombrys, Sale Sharks Commercial Director,
"We are delighted to bring another
senior international rugby match back to the North West.
"To have the England
Saxons play here in Stockport for the second
time in less than two years if fantastic news for Sharks' supporters across the
region. We look forward to welcoming Portugal
for their first ever 15-a-side, senior international match in England. Their
passionate and determined style of play that was one of the highlights of the
last Rugby World Cup. We look forward to
another excellent Friday night of rugby at Edgeley Park."
Tickets for England
Saxons match against Portugal
at Edgeley Park on January 30 are available from www.salesharks.com and
start from just £5 for adults.
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Discussion started by Unofficial England Rugby Union , 17/12/2008 16:44
Unofficial England Rugby Union
17/12/2008 16:44
17/12/2008 16:44
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
Only £10 to £15 for a top quality seat, or £5 for the open end/existing season ticket holders in their normal seats.##
Does that mean no Glaws/LI/Quins/Saints players for the Portugal game?
Also, can they pick who they want for the game(s) or are they limited by the agreement?
Also, can they pick who they want for the game(s) or are they limited by the agreement?
I'm sure there is a Saxons squad as there is a "first team" squad and they're part of "the agreement" so selection is limited to that group.
So this is our "Development squad" is it ??
We have...
1 player aged 34
2 players aged 32
3 players aged 31
2 players aged 29
1 player aged 28
2 players aged 27
6 players aged 26
1 player aged 25
Out of a squad of 28 players 17 of them are 26 years old or over.
I give up...
We have...
1 player aged 34
2 players aged 32
3 players aged 31
2 players aged 29
1 player aged 28
2 players aged 27
6 players aged 26
1 player aged 25
Out of a squad of 28 players 17 of them are 26 years old or over.
I give up...
So do I. No excuse for a 34 year old to be there. Tindall should be in the main squad. Why is Strettle there, when he's our best Winger. A few older heads, such as Worsley are fine, as long as the side is young elsewhere. No point in sending out 15 20 year olds to get hammered, but equally a victory by a bunch of 30 years olds is equally pointless.
You might have thought that the penny would have dropped by now at Rugby House after a five year long yawning gap in player development between the GP and the National side.
Fat chance.
"More of the same chaps. We can always blame CW. Got to win the next game y`know".
Fat chance.
"More of the same chaps. We can always blame CW. Got to win the next game y`know".
The Saxons set-up isn't ONLY to give a bunch of 20-23 year olds game time. Of course it's about exposing young talent to a new environment at international rugby, but since this new agreement came into effect, it should also be used as a place to keep players on standby should there be any injuries to elite squad members.
Who would really argue with the vast majority of those Saxons selections anyway.
Easter is a good example, he was put in the Saxons should any injuries occur, they did and he's now on great form and our first choice number 8.
Kay and Worsley are in there if we get desparate, and in Kay's case that may indeed happen.
The selection of Strettle in the Saxons is still pretty puzzling though. Is Cueto on good enough form to suggest he might be returning to the Cueto of old? I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the 5 to make the EPS.
Who would really argue with the vast majority of those Saxons selections anyway.
Easter is a good example, he was put in the Saxons should any injuries occur, they did and he's now on great form and our first choice number 8.
Kay and Worsley are in there if we get desparate, and in Kay's case that may indeed happen.
The selection of Strettle in the Saxons is still pretty puzzling though. Is Cueto on good enough form to suggest he might be returning to the Cueto of old? I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the 5 to make the EPS.
I would argue with half of them.
The Saxons should be about player development alone.
The Saxons should be about player development alone.
Which offers more development for young players?
Playing against Stade Francais in Paris in the Heineken Cup?
or playing a one off game against Portugal or Italy A at Edgeley Park?
The Saxons is about both giving future England stars a chance to play in a new environment on the international stage AND giving the elite squad certain backup players should the need arise. The inclusion of 3 or 4 older more experienced heads in a 30 man Saxons squad is no bad thing either.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:17:12:01 by Patrick.
Playing against Stade Francais in Paris in the Heineken Cup?
or playing a one off game against Portugal or Italy A at Edgeley Park?
The Saxons is about both giving future England stars a chance to play in a new environment on the international stage AND giving the elite squad certain backup players should the need arise. The inclusion of 3 or 4 older more experienced heads in a 30 man Saxons squad is no bad thing either.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:17:12:01 by Patrick.
Really?
Because I just did a quick count and out of the 30 players, 8 are over 25. Deacon, Chris Jones, Skivington, Titterrall, Worsley, Goode, Paul Hodgson, and Tindall.
Easter is in the EPS; and rightly so. Good thing he was in the Saxons to start with though wasn't it.
And since when did players become useless when they turn 26?
And as a final point, it'd be a bit hard for that group to gain any experience anyway, seeing as there aren't any Saxons games until the Six Nations, by which time Johnno will have revised both squads. Just maybe, Martin Johnson has a slightly better idea on international selections than you (or any of us). He's the one who travels up and down the country every week with the other coaches, looking at potential England players. It's been (very) well documented that you don't like the RFU, we get it, but bearing in mind the Saxons have provided most of the younger crop of Elite players of the years I'm not sure your arguments have much ground. Particularly since the Saxons team, 99% filled with young talent (no ages necessary) have been unbeaten for two years.
Course people will question a few selections, Strettle, Worsley etc but on the whole, I'm looking forward to their game at EP
Because I just did a quick count and out of the 30 players, 8 are over 25. Deacon, Chris Jones, Skivington, Titterrall, Worsley, Goode, Paul Hodgson, and Tindall.
Easter is in the EPS; and rightly so. Good thing he was in the Saxons to start with though wasn't it.
And since when did players become useless when they turn 26?
And as a final point, it'd be a bit hard for that group to gain any experience anyway, seeing as there aren't any Saxons games until the Six Nations, by which time Johnno will have revised both squads. Just maybe, Martin Johnson has a slightly better idea on international selections than you (or any of us). He's the one who travels up and down the country every week with the other coaches, looking at potential England players. It's been (very) well documented that you don't like the RFU, we get it, but bearing in mind the Saxons have provided most of the younger crop of Elite players of the years I'm not sure your arguments have much ground. Particularly since the Saxons team, 99% filled with young talent (no ages necessary) have been unbeaten for two years.
Course people will question a few selections, Strettle, Worsley etc but on the whole, I'm looking forward to their game at EP
Assume we are in `09 and forget the months.
Deacon...29
Easter...31
Hobson...26
Jones...29
Kay...34
Skiv...27
Titterell...28
Wood...26
Worsley...32
Goode...30 ?
Hodgson...27
Ojo 26
Strettle 26
Tindall...31
W.worth...26
Who really cares that the Saxons have been unbeaten for 2 years when the National side have lost so many.
When you pick for the Saxons you should be thinking 2-6 years hence.
Otherwise you will just put out your best England second team, and that`s not what is needed.
Its the usual story. Short term gain. No foresight.
Deacon...29
Easter...31
Hobson...26
Jones...29
Kay...34
Skiv...27
Titterell...28
Wood...26
Worsley...32
Goode...30 ?
Hodgson...27
Ojo 26
Strettle 26
Tindall...31
W.worth...26
Who really cares that the Saxons have been unbeaten for 2 years when the National side have lost so many.
When you pick for the Saxons you should be thinking 2-6 years hence.
Otherwise you will just put out your best England second team, and that`s not what is needed.
Its the usual story. Short term gain. No foresight.
No I'd rather take their actual ages, not the ones where you've added a year to every player to suit your (still flawed) point. In fact I don't particularly care what their ages are, they're all good players and the vast majority deserve to be in the Saxons. I was just trying to point out that your argument was flawed.
So do you think that anyone that's 26 and over shouldn't be allowed a look in? Particularly since anyone outside both squads can't represent England in the elite squad? What rubbish. On par with your suggestion that Johnno should chop and change his 22's week in week out, trying new players for every game. As if we haven't learned the lessons of doing that these past 5 years.
So which out of those players wouldn't you have in the Saxons? They have to be players who don't deserve to be called up to the England squad in case of injuries. Hodgson? Will probably be in the EPS in a couple of days. Wigglesworth? Wood? Strettle? Easter? Skivington? Tindall? I'll say it again, nowadays, it's not ONLY about player development. Playing week in week out for their clubs at the highest level will take care of that far more than any international A match against Portugal or Italy A.
Perhaps I'm wrong and you obviously know more about how to select England squads than Johnno. (also note that the RFU as an organisation have nothing to do with squad selections)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:19:04:32 by Patrick.
So do you think that anyone that's 26 and over shouldn't be allowed a look in? Particularly since anyone outside both squads can't represent England in the elite squad? What rubbish. On par with your suggestion that Johnno should chop and change his 22's week in week out, trying new players for every game. As if we haven't learned the lessons of doing that these past 5 years.
So which out of those players wouldn't you have in the Saxons? They have to be players who don't deserve to be called up to the England squad in case of injuries. Hodgson? Will probably be in the EPS in a couple of days. Wigglesworth? Wood? Strettle? Easter? Skivington? Tindall? I'll say it again, nowadays, it's not ONLY about player development. Playing week in week out for their clubs at the highest level will take care of that far more than any international A match against Portugal or Italy A.
Perhaps I'm wrong and you obviously know more about how to select England squads than Johnno. (also note that the RFU as an organisation have nothing to do with squad selections)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:19:04:32 by Patrick.
The results in the AI series prove conclusively that the GP is an inadequate platform for the top level.
There has been far too little change over the last 5 years not too much.
There is a very big divide between the GP and International football. That gap has been bridged with the Saxons. In part.
The Saxons should be an under 23 or 24 age group side with the inclusion of 4 - 6 older players in the squad. Pick who you like. On the basis of what you say above pick the next 4 - 6 in line for the Senior squad if you like.
Kay, at 34, is the standout folly in the squad. From his point of view Im amazed he didnt just declare himself unavailable and get on with his Leicester thing. Maybe he needs the money?
The senior squad is made up of 33 players (I think). Plenty enough for a 6 Nations campaign. If you have an emergency you might need to go off and have a quiet word with a GP coach or bring in one of your 4 - 6 from the Saxons.
If "Playing week in week out at the highest level" will take care of everything then why do we have the bl@@dy Saxons in the first place? To aerate the Edgeley Park pitch?
There has been far too little change over the last 5 years not too much.
There is a very big divide between the GP and International football. That gap has been bridged with the Saxons. In part.
The Saxons should be an under 23 or 24 age group side with the inclusion of 4 - 6 older players in the squad. Pick who you like. On the basis of what you say above pick the next 4 - 6 in line for the Senior squad if you like.
Kay, at 34, is the standout folly in the squad. From his point of view Im amazed he didnt just declare himself unavailable and get on with his Leicester thing. Maybe he needs the money?
The senior squad is made up of 33 players (I think). Plenty enough for a 6 Nations campaign. If you have an emergency you might need to go off and have a quiet word with a GP coach or bring in one of your 4 - 6 from the Saxons.
If "Playing week in week out at the highest level" will take care of everything then why do we have the bl@@dy Saxons in the first place? To aerate the Edgeley Park pitch?
Quote:whingebasher
The results in the AI series prove conclusively that the GP is an inadequate platform for the top level.
What a ludicrous thing to say.
- You could argue that it was the hard-nosed, win at all costs attitude of the GP that got England to their second world cup final just last year
Quote:whingebasher
If "Playing week in week out at the highest level" will take care of everything then why do we have the bl@@dy Saxons in the first place? To aerate the Edgeley Park pitch?
To give up and coming England players the opportunity to step out of their comfort zone for a couple of weeks, and train with a brand new bunch of players coaches. Ie, getting them prepared for full England duty and seeing how they get on. It's very simple. The placement of Saxons games during the Six Nations periods reinforces this, it'll let the players play in a new environment, which will help them adjust should they be called into the full squad at a moment's notice due to injury. Case in point, Strettle last year.
With regards to the rest of your post, I disagree completely, and have explained why. Pointless saying it all again.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:20:43:48 by Patrick.
It was also the hard nosed win at all costs attitude that caused the the huge pool defeat versus SA then was it?
Most players who have not `up and come` by the age of 24 are not going to do so.
Er Strettle already had one or two caps you may recall.
The side is full of old men. They are taking up space that should be allotted to younger players.
What are Worsley and Kay doing in there?? Do you really think they are being `groomed` to take over if someone in the Senior squad gets hurt??
They dont need Saxons rugby.
The mentality of the selectors is that the Saxons need them (And 15 or so over 24/25ers or whatever).
Youll get far more out of the Saxons thing if you consider which players need Saxons rugby NOT the other way round.
The Saxons are being treated as a B team. Its a wasted opportunity.
Most players who have not `up and come` by the age of 24 are not going to do so.
Er Strettle already had one or two caps you may recall.
The side is full of old men. They are taking up space that should be allotted to younger players.
What are Worsley and Kay doing in there?? Do you really think they are being `groomed` to take over if someone in the Senior squad gets hurt??
They dont need Saxons rugby.
The mentality of the selectors is that the Saxons need them (And 15 or so over 24/25ers or whatever).
Youll get far more out of the Saxons thing if you consider which players need Saxons rugby NOT the other way round.
The Saxons are being treated as a B team. Its a wasted opportunity.
Quote:whingebasher
Most players who have not `up and come` by the age of 24 are not going to do so.
Complete rubbish. Isn't Armitage 25? Kennedy 26? And they only recently got their first cap.
Quote:whingebasher
Er Strettle already had one or two caps you may recall.
Exactly. He was in the Saxons squad in 2007, had two games to show what he can do without the comfort of his Quins team-mates (strategically set during the Six Nations), excelled, and was called into the Senior set-up because of injury and made a big impact from his very first cap. There are plenty of other examples, Easter and Haskell to name but two. It's easier to go from club > to Saxons > to full International, and that's one of the reasons the A team exists.
Quote:whingebasher
The side is full of old men. They are taking up space that should be allotted to younger players.
What are Worsley and Kay doing in there?? Do you really think they are being `groomed` to take over if someone in the Senior squad gets hurt??
They dont need Saxons rugby.
No they don't, but they're there anyway as potential call-ups to the main squad should the need arise. How you equate Kay and Worsley being there to "the side is full of old men" is beyond me. Chuter excelled in the Churchill Cup a few months back, and because of that was granted a place in the EPS. Many younger players praised his leadership and the experience he had to share among the group. Crane was named man of the series and a few months later earned his first cap.
Quote:whingebasher
The mentality of the selectors is that the Saxons need them (And 15 or so over 24/25ers or whatever).
Youll get far more out of the Saxons thing if you consider which players need Saxons rugby NOT the other way round.
The Saxons are being treated as a B team. Its a wasted opportunity.
No, the Saxons are being treated as half a developmental squad, half a B team 'stepping-stone' to the Elite side, which is how it should be.
Not sure Chuter is the best example. If there was ever a player that was never international class, stopping younger and potentially better players getting in the EPS it is Chuter.
It is a difficult balance to achieve. At the end of the day, there is no point in filling it with youngsters that are not good enough, for the sake of it. Young players would, I assume, prefer older heads alongside them, instead of inferior players their own age.
Plus, there are not that many youngsters coming through who are not in either the EPS or the Saxons. It would be foolish to play someone in the Saxons who had hardly played Premiership rugby. E.g David Tait, using my club Sale as an example.
Having said that there are a few too many older players, especially those who are 26-29 and haven't made it. Tindall and Worsley have 100 caps between them. They are quality players, who's experience is vital.
BUT,
Deacon, Skivington, Wigglesworth aren't international quality.
Titterrell was, but was never given the chance (imho), and shouldn't be in the mix really. Similar argument to Jones. He's never going to feature for England again.
It really is a bit too much of a B team for my liking. If you do put older players in the team, it should be the right kind of players.
Patrick has correctly pointed out that players such as Easter and Strettle started in the Saxons. Great, but they made it in one season. Some players will be playing Saxons rugby season after season.
It is a difficult balance to achieve. At the end of the day, there is no point in filling it with youngsters that are not good enough, for the sake of it. Young players would, I assume, prefer older heads alongside them, instead of inferior players their own age.
Plus, there are not that many youngsters coming through who are not in either the EPS or the Saxons. It would be foolish to play someone in the Saxons who had hardly played Premiership rugby. E.g David Tait, using my club Sale as an example.
Having said that there are a few too many older players, especially those who are 26-29 and haven't made it. Tindall and Worsley have 100 caps between them. They are quality players, who's experience is vital.
BUT,
Deacon, Skivington, Wigglesworth aren't international quality.
Titterrell was, but was never given the chance (imho), and shouldn't be in the mix really. Similar argument to Jones. He's never going to feature for England again.
It really is a bit too much of a B team for my liking. If you do put older players in the team, it should be the right kind of players.
Patrick has correctly pointed out that players such as Easter and Strettle started in the Saxons. Great, but they made it in one season. Some players will be playing Saxons rugby season after season.
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