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I think you're right with B2 - too many times we took the wrong option - going blind when there was only one person there and the support was elsewhere.

I was also surprised that we didn't attack their lineout all game.

But regarding B5 we were without more than 2 or 3 people, more like 2 or 3 first choice jumpers in the lineout without even thinking of the rest of the team

Listened to it on Radio 5 Live amazingly! Sounded like a different game on the radio..? Thanks BRW for your efforts. Chin up, old boy. Things, can only get better....

......You should sit next to him at the Stoop (I do). Luckily, his wife is also there to calm him down.

did we not win all our own line outs? i thought the line out had really improved over the past few weeks

we're still not competing enough on oppostion throws though!

By "bodge our own lineout" I presume you mean the two attempts to set up a maul near their line. It's true we don't seem to be able to maul, but that is a separate issue from the lineout. I didn't see a problem with the throwing and catching on Saturday whatsoever. No overthrows, no tap downs bobbling around on the floor, nothing stolen. It was very strange to watch neither team challenge on the other's throw though

johnlid re BRW its always the same with these fellows on the wings...a little on the excitable side....probably because they are usually too skinny to stick it up their jumper and "Rummmbblllle!......

The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George

"Lightweight"?

15 and a bit stone in my playing days and plenty of experience packing down in various positions, thank you very much. Physicality was my game in the pack, think Moody without the skill.

Point of Order! I thought you told me you used to play on the Wing (hence Battering Ram Winger) when we were discussing the blonde in the Front Row several threads ago...?

Cripes! Are there 2 of you?

The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George

We never seemed to chase our kicks down, just waited either for the counter attack or return kick. If anybody made a break he found himself on his ownsome, no backup whatsoever. Evans kicking is appaling, place and out of hand, doesn't appear to control the game from behind at all (bring on clegg) he cant be any worse. Starting to think my season ticket is a complete waste of money, similar thoughts the season before we went down. No leadership or game plan at all from JK. Stupid idea to 'rest' three of our best players, the welsh fans I spoke to after the game couldn't believe their luck.

Quote:

deadlyfrom5yardsout
Point of Order! I thought you told me you used to play on the Wing (hence Battering Ram Winger) when we were discussing the blonde in the Front Row several threads ago...?
Cripes! Are there 2 of you?

In my time, I have played every position on the pitch except tighthead, hooker, scrum half and fly half. One of the joys of a few seasons of 3rd XV rugby is you never quite who will turn up this week so you never know which position you'll be in. Wing/full back and the odd jaunt at centre tended to be my position at a more refined level.

Crawleyquins, would you rather have rested some of the players in the GP games?

Prof:
I think some supporters/fans are far harder to please than others: Crawleyquins is one of them. You can't blame them. From last year's peaks to this years trough has been startling, worrying and horrible to watch at times.

Team and club still need supporting though...

Quote:

The Prof
Crawleyquins, would you rather have rested some of the players in the GP games?

I would. I would also not have done it en masse.

Oh to have the benefit of the retrospectoscope, a most valuable tool.

I don't think you need amazing powers of hindsight to realise that resting our 3 most influential players for an eminently winnable match (a crucial one in HEC terms) was going to cause problems.

BRW I am with you there! My first ever game of Senior Rugby was with Sutton & Epsom's 8th's at Wing and as the years rolled by I got heavier and moved up the ThreeQuarters and eventually finished up playing most of my carreer at No. 8 ( Mainly because I could catch in the line-out and not for any other particular reason...) My last ever game was also for the bottom team at a different club, but not at Wing!

Oh, Happy Days!!

The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George

As soon as we lost the first 3 games we had to go all out to win at Newcastle and at home to Bath... what else could we do?

No-one wants to be like Saints a couple of years back - semi (?) in the HEC and relegated.

Quote:

Jammy Git
I don't think you need amazing powers of hindsight to realise that resting our 3 most influential players for an eminently winnable match (a crucial one in HEC terms) was going to cause problems.

I'd have said our last 2 GP games were eminently winnable, and so one proved - just. However, missing any combination of those players would probably have resulted in two losses - they were that close. Given the choice of beating Bath or Cardiff in the current situation (before the Bath game) I would have said Bath every time. Although I appreciate it if the HEC means more to some supporters than the GP. I just feel that top 6 in the GP is the main thing that matters, and everything else is a luxury. Sure, if we were consistently finishing in the top 3 in the GP then I would feel differently about how we approach the HEC, but we're not there yet, particularly with the loss of Deano.

QP,

One match in the GP does not carry the same importance as one match in the HEC. Losing to Newcastle does not affect our league season as much as losing away to Cardiff affects our HEC season.

JG - and if we're relegated, or miss HC competition next year?

If we'd had a good start to the season you're right. I think we'd have rested players over the Newcastle/Bath games.

However if we had lost the Bath game we'd be down there with 3 points, 1 point above Leeds. If spreading our resting players caused us to lose both Newcastle and Bath (both close games), we'd be bottom of the table!

As it is we're in a group of six separated by 4 points. If we could get top of that group even, we'd be 6th. Then it's a slog upwards!

No but the chances are that losing to Newcastle and Bath would have worsened confidence further and we'd still have lost to Cardiff even with those players. At the time of the Newcastle match I'm sure it was more important than the Cardiff match to JK and the team; same for the Bath match. We'll have to agree to disagree I reckon.

There is no serious threat of relegation.

Tigers and Wasps have proved that rubbish starts to the season do not rule you out of a top-4 finish (let alone a top 6). However, losing the opening two matches of your HEC group - and make no bones about it, we're seriously up against it against Toulouse - virtually seals your fate in that competition.

Tigers and Wasps have more pedigree than us. Simply put, they are traditionally far stronger than us.

I'm not arguing that. The point is that a match in the GP at this stage of the season carries less importance. A loss to Newcastle does not define our season. An away loss to Cardiff might well have scuppered our HEC chances.

I really hope I'm wrong.

Sorry JG the league is the bread and butter, we MUST finish in the top 6 if that means we go nowhere in the HC so be it.

I'd have done the same, play all our important players in the league and for our home games, try and sneak a win (or something at least) on the road without them.

If we had rested Care then we might have just had the one scrum half available - Williams. Dickson and So'oialo were injured. Resting Easter would have been tricky because of the lack of locks. We could perhaps have rested Ugo but we needed him because of lack of back 3 players through injury and bans.

Quote:

Rocker
Sorry JG the league is the bread and butter, we MUST finish in the top 6 if that means we go nowhere in the HC so be it.

And 1 point vs 2 points at Newcastle will not make much of a difference.

Its always jam tommorrow though isn't it? Accept that you wont get anywhere in HC this year in order that you can try to finish in the top 6 in GP. This is so that , err, you can not worry about winning the HC again next year.....and so on...Maybe, as said in other threads, we should accept our current position where the Club is still growing and developing and target things other than the HC for the foreseeable...?

The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George

JG: it might not make much of a difference points wise, but the draw aginst Newcastle did give them the confidence to finish off the game v Bath.

HEC will and has to be secondary to GP this year. With the number of injuries/bans/EPS conditions, JK had no option, especially as Cardiff had a number of injuries as well. As frustrating as the final 15 minutes of the Crdiff game were, the fact that we nearly came away with a draw (their last score was premeditated by a dodgy penalty that could/should have gone the other way) flatters the Blues.

Continue to support the club...

I was listening on the radio and, unless those present want to say otherwise, we weren't well and truly beaten, the score line flattered Cardiff massively and we could (and maybe should) have nicked it at the end. Not that it excuses the obvious issues we still have (mainly an inability to find the receiver of that final pass, or them to actually catch it), but a win could easily have been achieved without the 3 players rested even with all the other injuries, bans and other issues affecting the squad. It must remain therefore the right decision.

Well there were many poor aspects to our play, but the stats showed we had about 2/3 territory and possession, and any team that does that is doing a lot of the basics pretty well.

This club is run on jam tomorrow, I fear.

Quote:

Battering Ram Winger
This club is run on jam tomorrow, I fear.

So which clubs are in fact offering jam today?

Leicester, despite being 5th.
London Irish - playing the kind of game and occupying the kind of position we aspire to.
Saracens - if it's not all smoke and mirrors then yes, jam today.
Northampton - great performance since start of the season.
Wasps - hmmm maybe, not convinced.

The others? Worcs, Glos, Bath, Sale, Quins, Newcastle, Leeds. Jam tomorrow I'm afraid.

I think Sarries might be offering gruel today, boerewors tomorrow, but at least it's food right now.

I really don't think we could have rested those 3 earlier, for the reasons above. Injuries/bans to alternative players, importance of winning games, etc. I agree that 1 point at newcastle wouldn't have been much different to the 2 we got, but I suspect that a huge amount of confidence and momentum was gained from that second half come back.

I don't feel we missed ugo or nick too much against cardiff. Guest in particular had a great game. But i think Danny's decision making would have been better when we were camped on their line for so long. And he is a threat to defenders, meaning they have to concentrate on the pick and drive, the backs, and his little darting run. Steve wasn't great, his service was slow, but I think a lot of people are missing the fact that he got very very little quick ball to work with. Ok, so he probably didn't do a great job when we did get quick ball, but for most of the time he was waiting for 30s for the cardiff players to take their hands off it or decide to roll over. Fair play to Cardiff, they got away with it, so I don't blame them at all, but surely the ref must see the players lying all over the ball.

It's such a shame that proper rucking is no longer allowed. You never used to have this problem for two reasons. 1, the refs didn't allow it, but more importantly, if a player was lying on the wrong side, he got a nice set on stud marks to show for his troubles. Now they penalise use of of the boot, even if it's legitimate

One of the main concerns is how flat we stand when we attack. No-one is running on to the ball or running at angles this season. Also, we used to chase kicks in a line, so as to avoid gaps appearing and broken-field counter attacks, but we chased up in a fast line. Now we still chase in a line, but we jog, putting no pressure on the kicker.

I still think we can salvage this season. Just need to tweak the tactics, play to our strong points, which are not imho a pick and drive game or a kick and chase game, and cut out the silly errors

I agree TBone and IMHO what we need is a tactical tweaker...stat!

The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George