Bath

Just about calmed down from Saturday. Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows the status of the Saints' player who was stretchered off? Looked a bad one.

Won't repeat what's been said above but wanted to flag the one moment that stuck out in my mind from Saturday: my Dad asked me who would be captain next year - reckon it'll still be Ewels? I was stumped. From my layman's view, I just don't get him - as a player or captain. I don't doubt his commitment, but I don't see anything there but a nice, honest player and bloke. Hard-working and gives his best - but that only gets you so far, especially in role as captain. Basically, Hooper MKII.

When was the last time we had an out and out leader? Someone who likely got the hairs on the back of the neck standing up during a rallying call? I'm harking back to days of Steve Borthwick unless anyone has anything different? Wonder what he's up to now.

Would someone like McInally - with an RAF background - be a little more inspiring as opposed to insipid? Perhaps Big Dave comes straight back in to head up a rejigged leadership group? Maybe one of the youngsters like Reid are now ready to step into the role permanently? I just don't see anything that says anything other than team of individuals and there doesn't seem to be anyone there to pull us together. When chips are down etc etc, we just fall apart. I get that not all leaders are shouters, but I don't see any of those so we must have a softly, softly leader, which isn't working.

I think/hope JvG and his team will turn up into a fitter team that's harder to beat. I'm relatively confident on that. I just don't see who heads that team up and leads/steers/drives us on the pitch.

Quote:

Barfboy
Just about calmed down from Saturday. Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows the status of the Saints' player who was stretchered off? Looked a bad one.

See posts above, he travelled home with the rest of the Saints squad.

Quote:

shendy

Quote:

OutsideBath
SW, would that be the mystery lock we’ve been trying to sign since the summer? Don’t hold your breath.
Back to the game, any news on the Saints player carried off?

Saints tweeted that he was in the changing room with the team after the game and travelled home with everyone else.

That’s good news

That's a really good and encouraging post Ali

Thank you and big thank you to your BiL

If we were back in the amateur days I could understand a lot of the comments about poor leadership, losing focus during the injury, unnecessarily subbing some of our best players and finding so many ways to turn an easy victory against an average opponent into abject defeat, but this is supposed to be a professional club, just look at the cost of the tickets! We seem to do this week after week without ever learning the lessons. What a shame there is no relegation, it is the only thing to really concentrate the minds of those running the club.

Some good individual performances, mostly from those prematurely subbed, but the last 10 minutes must have been the most discouraging I have seen in many years and the silence at the end was deafening.

It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Quote:

woodpecker
It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Agree, and his boss TM ? , probably does as well !

---

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

[Cipriani seemed to be doing most of the talking to the team….
Ewels mentioned after a loss a couple of weeks ago that the team switch off and aren’t consistent for 80 minutes but unfortunately he doesn’t seem able to prevent it. I too thought that the Bath players were just ambling about during the injury break.
I don’t like to single people out but as Captain he should have been firing them up.
I dont readily see a standout captain waiting in the wings?
Once Saint got the momentum the writing was on the wall.

Great news about the injured Saints player.

Another positive I really enjoyed the game. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have accepted this defeat had there been relegation.
I actually thought Saints look a very powerful team.


quote Barfboy]Just about calmed down from Saturday. Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows the status of the Saints' players who was stretchered off? Looked a bad one.

Won't repeat what's been said above but wanted to flag the one moment that stuck out in my mind from Saturday: my Dad asked me who would be captain next year - reckon it'll still be Ewels? I was stumped. From my layman's view, I just don't get him - as a player or captain. I don't doubt his commitment, but I don't see anything there but a nice, honest player and bloke. Hard-working and gives his best - but that only gets you so far, especially in role as captain. Basically, Hooper MKII.

When was the last time we had an out and out leader? Someone who likely got the hairs on the back of the neck standing up during a rallying call? I'm harking back to days of Steve Borthwick unless anyone has anything different? Wonder what he's up to now.

Would someone like McInally - with an RAF background - be a little more inspiring as opposed to insipid? Perhaps Big Dave comes straight back in to head up a rejigged leadership group? Maybe one of the youngsters like Reid are now ready to step into the role permanently? I just don't see anything that says anything other than team of individuals and there doesn't seem to be anyone there to pull us together. When chips are down etc etc, we just fall apart. I get that not all leaders are shouters, but I don't see any of those so we must have a softly, softly leader, which isn't working.

I think/hope JvG and his team will turn up into a fitter team that's harder to beat. I'm relatively confident on that. I just don't see who heads that team up and leads/steers/drives us on the pitch.[/quote]

Quote:

Old Bath Tub

Quote:

woodpecker
It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Agree, and his boss TM ? , probably does as well !

Well I certainly hope JvG isn't a yes man and shakes up this complacent coaching setup. If he is another yes man that allows Bath to continue down this path then we will be relegated.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

Old Bath Tub

Quote:

woodpecker
It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Agree, and his boss TM ? , probably does as well !

Well I certainly hope JvG isn't a yes man and shakes up this complacent coaching setup. If he is another yes man that allows Bath to continue down this path then we will be relegated.

I don’t think Ed G will be wanting yes men OB

It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

Quote:

Pop stand fan
The long injury break killed us. Going forward with momentum when the game was stopped. Conceded a penalty at the restart scrum from which Saints went on to score. All downhill from there.

The actions of the two captains during the injury break were interesting. Saints were gathered into a huddle and I guess were being exhorted to give it everything whereas Bath seemed to mill around the pitch with little group interaction.....did they think that they had the game won? Lack of leadership & energy.

Quote:

hasta
It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

I think there are indicators that the characters/leaders/square pegs, havent stayed under Hooper. Also I recognise the type in the stuff (guff) he comes out with.

Which leaders? Which square pegs?

I don't particularly like the way that Hooper communicates to the media. But that doesn't mean anything.

Quote:

woodpecker

Quote:

hasta
It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

I think there are indicators that the characters/leaders/square pegs, havent stayed under Hooper. Also I recognise the type in the stuff (guff) he comes out with.

Stooke , Zac Mercer, Freddy Burns ?
(Characters) Stooke & Mercer also leaders IMHO although all were pretty much sidelined under Hooper. Mercer later showed his worth
IMHO

As long as Ed Griffiths isn't the type of bloke who wants everyone to touch their forelockand agree with him, should be ok. Not implying that either. Hooper and Tarquin are a mutual admiration society and have been for quite a few years now.

Eh? Mercer left for waaaay more money - he played pretty much every game. Burns was flakey as anything. He could have been given more of a chance but he was playing worse than Priestland.

Stooke I'd rather have kept. But he certainly wasn't a leader. Not compared to the likes of McNally.

Quote:

hasta
Eh? Mercer left for waaaay more money - he played pretty much every game. Burns was flakey as anything. He could have been given more of a chance but he was playing worse than Priestland.
Stooke I'd rather have kept. But he certainly wasn't a leader. Not compared to the likes of McNally.

Hasta - I do feel this subject has been battered to death and we need to draw a line beneath it and look forward, however Mercer certainly did have a huge falling out with Hooper - there was a period at the end of his penultimate season with the club where he was dropped from the squad - not injured, just dropped at a time when we had huge injury issues in the back row with a lot of discussion around a huge falling out with Hooper - Burns came out as is Freddie's way and told it how he saw it listing Hoopers behaviour akin to being sent to "Coventry" refusing to speak with Freddie and excluding him from everything. Stooke has stated about his desire to leave but has not named any specific person but again rumours surround his relationship with Hooper.

As they say "No smoke without fire". The big fact is that the 2 people who many including me on this forum have issues with have been given new roles away from the 1st Team squad playing matters - read into that what you wish.

As I say it is time to draw a line under this dark & sad time for Bath FC and look forward to happier times.

The trouble is that you only see one side of these issues Ali & are not aware of the full story. It is dangerous to make continued assumptions on that basis, particularly when you are of the view that SH & TM can do nothing right. It’s surprising that we can retain any top players if that is the situation!

Quote:

Widcombe Boy

Quote:

woodpecker

Quote:

hasta
It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

I think there are indicators that the characters/leaders/square pegs, havent stayed under Hooper. Also I recognise the type in the stuff (guff) he comes out with.

Stooke , Zac Mercer, Freddy Burns ?
(Characters) Stooke & Mercer also leaders IMHO although all were pretty much sidelined under Hooper. Mercer later showed his worth
IMHO

Likely great motivators for those surrounding them but not necessarily ideal captains to liaise with the ref, make on field decisions to adapt the game style to suit the game, decide on whether to kick the 3 or go for a lineout catch and drive, etc.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
The trouble is that you only see one side of these issues Ali & are not aware of the full story. It is dangerous to make continued assumptions on that basis, particularly when you are of the view that SH & TM can do nothing right. It’s surprising that we can retain any top players if that is the situation!

Bath are currently the worst team in the premiership (that's a fact not an opinion) it's reasonable on a message board to hypothesise what might be the cause of that.

One hypothesis is that Hooper doesn't like those edgier types with stronger personalities who challenge and may be seen as disruptive. Its also a hypothesis (which I subscribe to ) that a successful team/organisation needs some of those characters.

The reason this came up again was (for me) the Mercer interview listen from 50.20 . These may not be all down to Hooper, but interesting.

[www.youtube.com]

Whatever, things are changing so its history to a large extent.

I think there's are significant differences between 'characters with personality', 'characters who are disruptive', 'characters who are different' and 'yes men'.

Have we lost characters? Yes. It's a hypothesis as you say that that's down to Hooper (although, you know, who brought Nathan Hughes in?) My point is that there is no evidence (and there's none in that interview with Zach) that says that Hooper wants 'Yes Men'.

Quote:

hasta
I think there's are significant differences between 'characters with personality', 'characters who are disruptive', 'characters who are different' and 'yes men'.
Have we lost characters? Yes. It's a hypothesis as you say that that's down to Hooper (although, you know, who brought Nathan Hughes in?) My point is that there is no evidence (and there's none in that interview with Zach) that says that Hooper wants 'Yes Men'.

Its my hypothesis that Hooper wants 'Yes Men' based on my experience dealing with bosses who want 'Yes Men'. The movements within the team which I observe with my eyes, the performance of the said team (both objectively (eyes) and subjectively (results) and the comments which I hear from current and ex players with my ears tend to support for me in my own head, the hypothesis.

I concede however that the evidence is sparse and circumstantial and as such I'm not prepared to argue this in a court of law.

Having actually been in meetings with Hoops and his team one would very quickly gauge whether he wanted yes men or woman for that matter in his team. You soon get vibes in a meeting culture whether there is a yes man culture and I certainly did not perceive that in my experience.

Hughes was brought in under the Ed G and Neal Hatley regime - post changes.