Bath
Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats
By Devonport Boy
March 27 2024
It’s been around for a while and many of us will be familiar with the use of SWOT analysis as a tool for project planning or when looking at business competition. As Bath Rugby supporters, we’ve become used over the years to having a bit of a “glass half empty” view of life and whilst we’ve always kept the faith, it’s been the weaknesses and threats that we’ve tended to focus on. But not anymore. If we had any remaining doubts about the way in which the Bath Rugby project under JvG is progressing then the fun in the sun at the Rec on Sunday put them to bed.
It’s so tight at the top of the Premiership table right now. A win on Sunday against a tough to beat Sale team was essential if we were going to stay in the mix – and did the team deliver! Yes, there are always areas where the boys will feel that they could have done better but this team has skill, determination and an innate confidence which sees them perform very well under pressure. The way that they dealt with the Ollie Lawrence sin bin is a case in point. Teams must be starting to really worry about our strength in depth. They set themselves up to counter Alfie Barbeary and then Jaco Coetzee comes on and poses all kinds of problems!
Quinn’s had a bad day at the office against a Sarries team who looked very good. That’s a problem for us. They will surely want to bounce back from that at home on Saturday and we’ll need to prepare for that. There’s also the question of selection. Arguably the Premiership has already entered the realms of “knock out rugby” and with the small matter of the business end of the EPCR to content with, JvG will surely have to rotate at some point and use the whole squad.
That said, the game against Quins looks like an opportunity and I think we need to go strong. The other fixtures this weekend argue for trying to get as much as possible out of this game, especially with Northampton playing Sarries (they can’t both win!). Bristol had a great result against Saints last weekend, but Gloucester might just be able to do us a favour against them at Castle Grim and Exeter may well find a smarting Sale a tough challenge at Salford. You get the feeling that a Steve Diamond driven Newcastle are going to beat somebody this season, but Leicester may be too strong. So it’s very much in our hands. A good result this weekend and top 4 is looking very good and top 2 certainly attainable.
I’m going to leave it to somebody braver than me to predict the squad for this one. I’m just trusting JvG to have done his SWOT analysis and come up with the right strategy!
COYB
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 27/03/2024 15:30
27/03/2024 15:30
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:03:23:50:06 by hasta.
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At last night's Member's Event Lee Blackett was suggesting "tweaks" rather than rotation in selection from now on.
So- Sunday's 23 excepting:
Stuart in front row/bench?
Annett for Faiva if fit.
J du Plessis to bench.
Reid for Underhill?
Ojomoh for Lawrence?
PG
So- Sunday's 23 excepting:
Stuart in front row/bench?
Annett for Faiva if fit.
J du Plessis to bench.
Reid for Underhill?
Ojomoh for Lawrence?
PG
Quote:P G Tips
At last night's Member's Event Lee Blackett was suggesting "tweaks" rather than rotation in selection from now on.
So- Sunday's 23 excepting:
Stuart in front row/bench?
Annett for Faiva if fit.
J du Plessis to bench.
Reid for Underhill?
Ojomoh for Lawrence?
PG
Seems about right really
I’d expect something like
1. Obano
2. Dunn
3. TDT
4. Ewels
5. Stooke
6. Hill
7. Reid
8. Coetzee
9. Spencer
10. Russell
11. Muir
12. Redpath
13. Ojomoh
14. Cokansiga
15. Gallagher (Would like to see Bailey given a shot)
16. Annett
17. Schoeman
18. Stuart
19. JDP
20. Richards
21. TCS
22. Bailey/Harris
23. barbs
No indication that his injury is serious but with a shorter turnaround it might be a chance to give Barbeary the week off completely but the above works for me and makes sense
Tabai Matson leaving Quins at the end of the season and he will help the Women's team (only) for the remainder of this season ... sounds like all is not well at Quins.
Quote:OldMarovian
Tabai Matson leaving Quins at the end of the season and he will help the Women's team (only) for the remainder of this season ... sounds like all is not well at Quins.
I wondered if there was something up with the women’s team, having lost two players mid-season with immediate effect. Bella McKenzie going back to Aus could well have been for non-rugby reasons but Bryony Cleall switching to Sarries suggested there might be something going on.
I would do v similar hk890
Gallagher
Big Joe
Mojo
Redpath
Muir
Finn
Spencer
Beno
Dunn
Tdt
Ewels
Stooke
Hill
Reid
Coetzee
Bench: annett, schoeman, stuart, jdp, richards, schreuder, bailey, bayliss
Thought Sam was excellent for eng and on sun but maybe time to manage him.
I think lawrence would benefit from a short break at this stage- was good Sunday but a way off his electric best.
3 changes to freshen up the pack on a 6 day turnaround and get stuart on relatively early as tdt put a big shift in against sale.
Would love harris to get a go at 15 at some point- took a hell of a knock against glos. Hope he is OK.
Gallagher
Big Joe
Mojo
Redpath
Muir
Finn
Spencer
Beno
Dunn
Tdt
Ewels
Stooke
Hill
Reid
Coetzee
Bench: annett, schoeman, stuart, jdp, richards, schreuder, bailey, bayliss
Thought Sam was excellent for eng and on sun but maybe time to manage him.
I think lawrence would benefit from a short break at this stage- was good Sunday but a way off his electric best.
3 changes to freshen up the pack on a 6 day turnaround and get stuart on relatively early as tdt put a big shift in against sale.
Would love harris to get a go at 15 at some point- took a hell of a knock against glos. Hope he is OK.
Interesting minor tweaks I would imagine given our next 2 games are huge away games to Chiefs - maybe rest Underhill and Lawrence - I would like Finn to rest but knowing he is a playing animal and just wants to play who knows maybe put him on the bench - Cam and Ollie have played similar minutes over the 6 Nations so which one do you rest? I agree I though Cam was outstanding on Sunday and outshone Ollie but I wouldn't read too much into that - they are forming a serious partnership and add Max O into the equation we are very fortunate.
I think the pack will stay pretty much the same given how good they were against Sharks - I am not sure whether Stuart will be given another week off given what lies ahead - Roux and Barbeary maybe rested given their recent injury pasts and again the workload ahead. Quins are so dangerous but they are in no way the physical pack that Sharks and Tigers are and we seriously bossed Sharks - Quins will want a fast and free game and I know JvG will be telling the boys to stick to the game plan which has served them so well so far and dominate them up front. Also thought Faiva looked good when he came on best performance since joining - good in the loose and his set play was way better - Who would be a coach - maybe something like:
Obano
Dunn
TDT
Ewels
Stooke
Hill
Reid/Bayliss
Coetzee
Spencer
Bailey
Muir
Redpath
Max O
Joe C
Gallagher
Annett/Faiva
Schoeman
Griffin/Stuart
Du Plesis/Roux
Bayliss/Reid
Schrueder
Russell
I think the pack will stay pretty much the same given how good they were against Sharks - I am not sure whether Stuart will be given another week off given what lies ahead - Roux and Barbeary maybe rested given their recent injury pasts and again the workload ahead. Quins are so dangerous but they are in no way the physical pack that Sharks and Tigers are and we seriously bossed Sharks - Quins will want a fast and free game and I know JvG will be telling the boys to stick to the game plan which has served them so well so far and dominate them up front. Also thought Faiva looked good when he came on best performance since joining - good in the loose and his set play was way better - Who would be a coach - maybe something like:
Obano
Dunn
TDT
Ewels
Stooke
Hill
Reid/Bayliss
Coetzee
Spencer
Bailey
Muir
Redpath
Max O
Joe C
Gallagher
Annett/Faiva
Schoeman
Griffin/Stuart
Du Plesis/Roux
Bayliss/Reid
Schrueder
Russell
Quote:I'd go with that, but but both Bailey and Harris on the bench, no forwards in the 23 shirt please (besides, neither Barb.s nor Richards suits the role of "emergency backs cover" like Cloete or Bayliss).HK890
I’d expect something like
1. Obano
2. Dunn
3. TDT
4. Ewels
5. Stooke
6. Hill
7. Reid
8. Coetzee
9. Spencer
10. Russell
11. Muir
12. Redpath
13. Ojomoh
14. Cokansiga
15. Gallagher (Would like to see Bailey given a shot)
16. Annett
17. Schoeman
18. Stuart
19. JDP
20. Richards
21. TCS
22. Bailey/Harris
23. barbs
We've 5 players who regularly played during the 6N, Stuart's had a week off, Underhill, Lawrence and Russell all need one, Redpath probably doesn't, but it would be a decent idea anyway at some point.
I far prefer easing those rest weeks through, rather than throwing them all in at once.
Russell is the one I'm worried is getting over-played, but A] it's still less than his last few seasons in France, and B] Quins want broken-field rugby; the same scenarios that help MSmith, help Finn.
I'd look to give Finn a break against Exeter (prem) and Newcastle; I'd even be tempted to give him the 3 week block, to include Sarries at home (for the sake of R&R, and giving Bailey an actual run)
RAEBURN SHIELD
Thanks for the preview report DB, and for all the others, always a good read
From the preview on the Offy, it sounds like we might be going full bore again, with Russell and Lawrence starting.
Suppose, given how Quins are in a bit of a state (famous last words…), this Saturday is a big opportunity to really stake a claim for top 2. Like v Sale, it’s not do or die but the upside of winning, especially beating a close rival in the league, is massive. Danger of course being you go full strength and lose and then have a tired squad and must win games! Good luck, JvG!
If all fit, I’d go full strength again with maybe Stuart back, Stooke for Roux. Would maybe give Underhill the week off- didn’t think he was quite on it last week, and Bayliss and Reid would suit a fast paced game v Quins.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Suppose, given how Quins are in a bit of a state (famous last words…), this Saturday is a big opportunity to really stake a claim for top 2. Like v Sale, it’s not do or die but the upside of winning, especially beating a close rival in the league, is massive. Danger of course being you go full strength and lose and then have a tired squad and must win games! Good luck, JvG!
If all fit, I’d go full strength again with maybe Stuart back, Stooke for Roux. Would maybe give Underhill the week off- didn’t think he was quite on it last week, and Bayliss and Reid would suit a fast paced game v Quins.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Interesting last time at the Rec Quins changed their back row because of the threat and power of our back row by replacing the in form Evans with Chisholm who incidentally I thought was their player of the match - but they were clearly worried.
I think with Ted Hill back and the way he played last weekend our back row is even more powerful. Quins will be desperate to make the game loose, frenetic and stressed - which may play into our hands - I am sure JvG, Lee and team will be wanting more structure and power and Finn to orchestrate the tools he has all around him.
Weather at present looking dry and mild. Official for the match Anthony Woodthorpe.
I think with Ted Hill back and the way he played last weekend our back row is even more powerful. Quins will be desperate to make the game loose, frenetic and stressed - which may play into our hands - I am sure JvG, Lee and team will be wanting more structure and power and Finn to orchestrate the tools he has all around him.
Weather at present looking dry and mild. Official for the match Anthony Woodthorpe.
It’s an interesting point you make Ali about power.
Puts me in mind of how sometimes coaches pick an XV to suit the team they’re playing, when I just want the best XV to suit how we play. I always think this when international teams play Fiji- don’t try and match them, just focus on your engths, rather than worrying about them too much.
So v Quins, it’s tempting, cos they have Esterhuizen and play wide, to go, ok well we need a big centre and more pace in the backrow. But in fact like you say, the better approach is just to focus on our own strengths and double down on them. So pick a team that helps us dominate set piece and gain line, especially given how they’re missing the likes of Cunningham-South. Good news is that Reid for Underhill doesn’t decrease our power, maybe in the tackle but not in the carry.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Puts me in mind of how sometimes coaches pick an XV to suit the team they’re playing, when I just want the best XV to suit how we play. I always think this when international teams play Fiji- don’t try and match them, just focus on your engths, rather than worrying about them too much.
So v Quins, it’s tempting, cos they have Esterhuizen and play wide, to go, ok well we need a big centre and more pace in the backrow. But in fact like you say, the better approach is just to focus on our own strengths and double down on them. So pick a team that helps us dominate set piece and gain line, especially given how they’re missing the likes of Cunningham-South. Good news is that Reid for Underhill doesn’t decrease our power, maybe in the tackle but not in the carry.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Sounds like underhill has to be stood down for 1 of the next 4 games?
I would tempted by exeter away in champions cup thinking about it.
Don't think we have any other mandated rest required? Agree that giving finn and lawrence a week off at some stage is sensible.
If we beat exeter in champions cup and reach play offs there could still be a good chunk of the season left to manage....
I would tempted by exeter away in champions cup thinking about it.
Don't think we have any other mandated rest required? Agree that giving finn and lawrence a week off at some stage is sensible.
If we beat exeter in champions cup and reach play offs there could still be a good chunk of the season left to manage....
Stuart has apparently had a week off in Kenya.......very nice.
Apparently he will be back in the squad
Apparently he will be back in the squad
Teams Up. Du Plessis debut:
Bath Rugby: 15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Ruaridh McConnochie, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Ben Spencer; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Jacques du Plessis (debut), 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Jaco Coetzee
Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Elliott Stooke, 20 Josh Bayliss, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Alfie Barbeary
PG
Bath Rugby: 15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Ruaridh McConnochie, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Ben Spencer; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Jacques du Plessis (debut), 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Jaco Coetzee
Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Elliott Stooke, 20 Josh Bayliss, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Alfie Barbeary
PG
Quote:Charlieboa1
Agree that giving finn and lawrence a week off at some stage is sensible.
Is there a potential danger that Finn reaches the maximum number of games allowed per player before the end of the season? I'm not sure where we are with the max, some reports say 30 matches per season.
Tomorrow's match will be Finn's 16th for Bath this season, added to his 8 Scotland appearances, gives a total of 24. I'm not sure if the pre-World Cup warm up matches count for this season. If not, Finn could have as few as 6 matches left in the tank. If we get to the Prem final, that's 6 more matches (excluding tomorrow's game) and that could be his full quota.
Potentially, then, he may need to be rested for at least a couple of games, depending on where Bath management see this season's priorities.
As stated above, not sure about the regs for appearances, so this could all be a load of guff...!
Not sure about Scotland, but from The Times on Wednesday...
"For player welfare, England players are limited to the equivalent of playing in 30 full matches per season — an aggregate of 2,400 minutes — or 35 match involvements in total. With five rounds of Premiership matches left, plus the potential for two play-off matches, along with the knockout stage of European competition, and a three-match summer tour to Japan and New Zealand, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Tommy Freeman and Henry Slade have fewer than ten full matches remaining within their 2,400-minute limit."
"For player welfare, England players are limited to the equivalent of playing in 30 full matches per season — an aggregate of 2,400 minutes — or 35 match involvements in total. With five rounds of Premiership matches left, plus the potential for two play-off matches, along with the knockout stage of European competition, and a three-match summer tour to Japan and New Zealand, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Tommy Freeman and Henry Slade have fewer than ten full matches remaining within their 2,400-minute limit."
Pretty certain it's an rfu/ prem thing , doesn't apply to Scottish players.
Obviously still a management/ welfare challenge in terms of finn.
I think they may rest him next weekend but who knows...
Obviously still a management/ welfare challenge in terms of finn.
I think they may rest him next weekend but who knows...
Quins team:
Starting XV:
1. Fin Baxter (43)
2. Jack Walker (56)
3. Dillon Lewis (13)
4. Joe Launchbury (18)
5. George Hammond (58)
6. Stephan Lewies (62 - Captain)
7. Will Evans (82)
8. Alex Dombrandt (131)
9. Danny Care (369)
10. Marcus Smith (152)
11. Cadan Murley (107)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (83)
13. Oscar Beard (47)
14. Louis Lynagh (59)
15. Tyrone Green (68)
Impact Players:
16. Sam Riley (46)
17. Joe Marler (277)
18. Will Collier (235)
19. Irne Herbst (39)
20. Will Trenholm (10)
21. Max Green (7)
22. Lennox Anyanwu (21)
23. Cameron Anderson (6)
Starting XV:
1. Fin Baxter (43)
2. Jack Walker (56)
3. Dillon Lewis (13)
4. Joe Launchbury (18)
5. George Hammond (58)
6. Stephan Lewies (62 - Captain)
7. Will Evans (82)
8. Alex Dombrandt (131)
9. Danny Care (369)
10. Marcus Smith (152)
11. Cadan Murley (107)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (83)
13. Oscar Beard (47)
14. Louis Lynagh (59)
15. Tyrone Green (68)
Impact Players:
16. Sam Riley (46)
17. Joe Marler (277)
18. Will Collier (235)
19. Irne Herbst (39)
20. Will Trenholm (10)
21. Max Green (7)
22. Lennox Anyanwu (21)
23. Cameron Anderson (6)
Couple of strong srcummagers on their bench but think our bench looks stronger on paper (prob just my bias but stuart, stooke, bayliss and barbs have some serious bang!)
Am guessing here but reckon a key line of attack from Quins will be Dombrandt and Esterhuizen boshing down at Finn and Max
Saints conceding two tries in the last minute to give Sarries a bonus point [facepalm]
(Sigh) Saints letting Sarries get a BP at the death. At least they were comfortably more than a score clear…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Tigers pack being dismantled- love to see it. Just hope they can get over the line
Not really a mystery as to why Newcastle are bottom…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Falcons will win a game still this season. We have to take ours against them very seriously, especially on a Friday night.
They looked knackered and out of ideas though. I mean... Long game. But they never looked like scoring that last try.
Ref didn’t turn the clock off whilst sorting out the replacements, he was played.
Yep, we need to take the Falcons game very seriously. We’ve “got previous” at giving teams in Falcon’s position a solitary win. The game against London Welsh at the Kassam in 2012 is still a haunting memory. 9-9 on 80 minutes then Stephen Donald threw a “Hail Mary” pass which was picked off by Nick Scott (ex - Bath) who went the length of the pitch to score. Not our best day at the office!
Going to Quins today and seeing my globetrotting son. Looking out of my window its dry and sunny here in Bath so lets hope for a good day of rugby and a win for BBW
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Going to Quins today and seeing my globetrotting son. Looking out of my window its dry and sunny here in Bath so lets hope for a good day of rugby and a win for BBW
Give me a wave BSJ. We're in London Pride stand and I'll be wearing BBW scarf 😅
A few refreshments in the Webb Ellis and will shortly be mosing on into the ground
Atmosphere really good. Quins fans I've chatted to are not confident
Atmosphere really good. Quins fans I've chatted to are not confident
Look like we’re still on the coach…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Time to wake up ? 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Just not on the pace of the game. Quins look fired up
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
We are just not at the races. Our kicking game is woeful- I reckon we’ve managed one contestable kick so far.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
This feels like Quins getting their frustrations out, BUT can see us coming back
Need some fire in the belly from somewhere
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Agreed, Quins unplayable today, Bath not bad, but a bit shell-shocked.A.M 180
This feels like Quins getting their frustrations out, BUT can see us coming back
Bath's best bet may be to hand them a TBP ahead of HT, and hope they switch off.
ETA, speak of the devil.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:15:40:49 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Agreed, Quins unplayable today, Bath not bad, but a bit shell-shocked.A.M 180
This feels like Quins getting their frustrations out, BUT can see us coming back
Bath's best bet may be to hand them a TBP ahead of HT, and hope they switch off.
ETA, speak of the devil.
Well Part 1 done.
General handling and our kicking game is killing us.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
That try might have made a come back beyond reach
Shame we've gone from a great opportunity to change the complexion of the game to kissing this one goodbye in about 2 minutes
Shame we've gone from a great opportunity to change the complexion of the game to kissing this one goodbye in about 2 minutes
This is so odd. How are suddenly so poor?
Similar to other teams who have blown hot and cold since the 6N. Yes Quins are on it, but we're pretty awful at just about everything.
Similar to other teams who have blown hot and cold since the 6N. Yes Quins are on it, but we're pretty awful at just about everything.
Weaknesses on show but precious few strengths.
Not sure where the opportunities will comw from second half.
PG
Not sure where the opportunities will comw from second half.
PG
Quote:A.M 180
That try might have made a come back beyond reach
Shame we've gone from a great opportunity to change the complexion of the game to kissing this one goodbye in about 2 minutes
Top 2 inches.
Quins excellent, but we are fumbling everything and making bad calls both offensively and defensively
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Hairdryer….the new powerful Dyson at half-time ? 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:JK7
This is so odd. How are suddenly so poor?
Similar to other teams who have blown hot and cold since the 6N. Yes Quins are on it, but we're pretty awful at just about everything.
Believing own hype? Everyone lauding Bath last week plus writing off Quins - I bet they didn’t need much of a team talk.
We need the Gettysburg address at halftime if we’re going to get anything from this game.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
I do t think we're playing that badly, just shell shocked, a few handling errors, and absolutely no rub of the green. But then, the bounce of the ball always hates you when you're under the kosh.
It's the story of Quins, not the story of Bath
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:15:56:45 by Which Tyler.
It's the story of Quins, not the story of Bath
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:15:56:45 by Which Tyler.
Real shame to lose the game in such an embarrassing manner, just glad I'm not there.
We are massively better under JvG and may win something in the future, but at the moment we aren't good enough to win away from home against a decent side.
Still think things are looking good for the next couple of seasons.
We are massively better under JvG and may win something in the future, but at the moment we aren't good enough to win away from home against a decent side.
Still think things are looking good for the next couple of seasons.
Miles Reid’s tackling shown up again - is a weakness in his game. Quins playing exceptionally well with some kind officiating to put it mildly - we need to up our physicality and front up second half.
Quote:Ali1969
Miles Reid’s tackling shown up again - is a weakness in his game. Quins playing exceptionally well with some kind officiating to put it mildly - we need to up our physicality and front up second half.
The games gone, we need to focus on stopping Quins getting over the 50 point mark. Do that and move on to next week.
Quote:OutsideBath
Real shame to lose the game in such an embarrassing manner, just glad I'm not there.
We are massively better under JvG and may win something in the future, but at the moment we aren't good enough to win away from home against a decent side.
Still think things are looking good for the next couple of seasons.
One thing to lose, another to be spanked like this…
Your wider point I agree with, I think we’re not quite there to win silverware this season, but confident we will start picking up trophies in the near future
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
I don’t think JVG will be panicking these things happen in sport what he and his team will want is a response just like Quins have this week after a similar spanking by Sarries - difference is we have 40 minutes to put in a performance. Officiating has to improve as LoL has just said on TNT - Quins have everything go their way.
Extraordinary turnaround & this after West Ham were leading Newcastle 1-3 away & lost! How can all the progress Bath have made under JvG be lost in one half of rugby? I know that other potential top 4 teams have rebounded but I doubt if any of us have the slightest hope for a title win at present!
Quote:Bath Hammer
Extraordinary turnaround & this after West Ham were leading Newcastle 1-3 away & lost! How can all the progress Bath have made under JvG be lost in one half of rugby? I know that other potential top 4 teams have rebounded but I doubt if any of us have the slightest hope for a title win at present!
The progress made hasn't been lost in one half, it's just reinforced the fact that Bath aren't good enough to win anything YET.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Bath Hammer
Extraordinary turnaround & this after West Ham were leading Newcastle 1-3 away & lost! How can all the progress Bath have made under JvG be lost in one half of rugby? I know that other potential top 4 teams have rebounded but I doubt if any of us have the slightest hope for a title win at present!
The progress made hasn't been lost in one half, it's just reinforced the fact that Bath aren't good enough to win anything YET.
Yep, every team has bad days- look at last week’s fixtures
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Even in our darkest days, I don't remember us being this innacurate at the breakdown
Quote:It can'tBath Hammer
How can all the progress Bath have made under JvG be lost in one half of rugby?
It hasn't
It's called "drama queen"
RAEBURN SHIELD
Is there a reason we’re still kicking aimlessly?
Livid at how dull some of the play is
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Livid at how dull some of the play is
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Our short game has been poor all season
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Touch judge has done us a solid there
Can see this becoming a basketball match now
Can see this becoming a basketball match now
Must admit I expected to lose the game simply because Quins we bound to react from their humiliation last week.
Just didn't see this Bath squad as one that would capitulate in such a manner, really thought they were better than that.
Just didn't see this Bath squad as one that would capitulate in such a manner, really thought they were better than that.
Du Plessis has been pretty poor and to give Quins and was out because he wanted to moan at the ref was ridiculous
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Watching Bath is bad for the nerves.
I think we though the kick off was an hour later!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I think we though the kick off was an hour later!
Fair play to Gallagher
Was really shaky in the first half but he's been a big figure in this
Was really shaky in the first half but he's been a big figure in this
What a finish!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:Could gou explain please how scoring 33 points in 40 minutes is deserving of 5 points, but scoring 33 points in 40 minutes is undeserving of a bonus point?A.M 180
15 minutes for a quite undeserved but useful BP
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:16:54:34 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Could gou explain okease how scoding 33 in 40 minutes is mofs desedving than scori g 33 (and counting) in 40 minutes?A.M 180
15 minutes for a quite undeserved but useful BP
To be fair to me, I said that 15 minutes ago!
Quote:Fair but...A.M 180
To be fair to me, I said that 15 minutes ago!
It was still an assumption that we'd score those 4 tries without deserving to score 4 tries.
RAEBURN SHIELD
That come back says everything about the belief in this team.
In many ways that fight is as important as the 2 points
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
In many ways that fight is as important as the 2 points
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Reaction - Got. Bayliss outstanding bench excellent well played Schreuder and Bailey.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:16:58:34 by Ali1969.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:16:58:34 by Ali1969.
2 bonus points given the half time score is a bonus! 
they were 37 points ahead!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
they were 37 points ahead!Quote:It happens so often in this league where a team gets totally outplayed that comes away with a 4 try BP, all because the leading team has eased off/games turned looseWhich TylerQuote:Fair but...A.M 180
To be fair to me, I said that 15 minutes ago!
It was still an assumption that we'd score those 4 tries without deserving to score 4 tries.
Quins clearly eased off there, but I'm not going to argue we didn't deserve to come away with 2BPs!
Quote:shipwrecked
2 bonus points given the half time score is a bonus!
+1
Does beg the question how can a team play so badly in the first half of a match (I realise Quins were good)?
A win for Bath could have put Quins out of the running for top 4, but looking at the remaining fixtures there's the horrible prospect of Bristol pipping Bath for 4th spot.
The question that still bugs me is, why can't Bath win away to full strength teams?
Quote:Some will no doubt look at the result alone and think Quins are better placed for a Top 4 finish, but to me that game sums up why we will probably be there and they won'tToast and Marmite
That come back says everything about the belief in this team.
In many ways that fight is as important as the 2 points
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:17:03:57 by A.M 180.
Side bar - did one of their carded players come back early? AH was alluding to it…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:shipwrecked
2 bonus points given the half time score is a bonus!
+1
Does beg the question how can a team play so badly in the first half of a match (I realise Quins were good)?
A win for Bath could have put Quins out of the running for top 4, but looking at the remaining fixtures there's the horrible prospect of Bristol pipping Bath for 4th spot.
The question that still bugs me is, why can't Bath win away to full strength teams?
Because we are still a work in progress. But if we keep improving we’ll gradually turn close losses into wins.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
JvG's rotation means that when the subs come on they fit seamlessly with no drop off, that a significant change from previously.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:OutsideBath
The question that still bugs me is, why can't Bath win away to full strength teams?
Hard not to look at the league table and think just about every club bar Saints is thinking the same thing
Quote:A.M 180Quote:Some will no doubt look at the result alone and think Quins are better placed for a Top 4 finish, but to me that game sums up why we will probably be there and they won'tToast and Marmite
That come back says everything about the belief in this team.
In many ways that fight is as important as the 2 points
On paper Quins do have a difficult run in which could help Bath with getting 4th place. Bristol can't be ruled out though.
Quote:shipwrecked
JvG's rotation means that when the subs come on they fit seamlessly with no drop off, that a significant change from previously.
It’s a good point actually. Pleased with Schroeder today after being critical of him in previous games
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:A.M 180Quote:OutsideBath
The question that still bugs me is, why can't Bath win away to full strength teams?
Hard not to look at the league table and think just about every club bar Saints is thinking the same thing
It's an away 2 points though, 6 points from 3 away games is the target isn't it and win the home games.
Quote:Toast and Marmite
Side bar - did one of their carded players come back early? AH was alluding to it…
T&M agree I am sure the clock said 3.14 left on card and Hrbst came back on - who is at Fault Officials or Quins certainly Billy Mlllard didn’t want to talk about it - JVG very unhappy about it especially as Hrbst claimed the line out on Quins line.
Yep, looks like Herbst came back on over 3 minutes early from the sin bin. Absolutely awful officiating if so, add in the knock on for one of their earlier tries and given how close it was at the end, makes it difficult to swallow.
Then again, we were awful for the best part of an hour, so don’t want to solely blame the officials…
Then again, we were awful for the best part of an hour, so don’t want to solely blame the officials…
If that's true it's pretty shocking. 3 seconds, fair enough, but 3 minutes?? How on earth does that happen?
A combination of cheating by Quins and incompetence from the officials that really needs looking at. Ugo described it as 'slightly early', so maybe it wasn't 3 mins?
A combination of cheating by Quins and incompetence from the officials that really needs looking at. Ugo described it as 'slightly early', so maybe it wasn't 3 mins?
Can't always rely on the graphics but if that is 3 minutes early then that's pretty serious...
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
Bit disappointed in the player, Herbst, taking advantage to be honest. Pretty crucial as if Bath won its a 3 point difference! The could decide home or away semi.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
All I know was TV was showing over 3 mins on the clock for Hrbst then it panned and he was on the field suddenly the clock disappeared and just showed Lynaghs . The clocks on TV I was under the impression were the same as the match clock and as I said Millard really strange when asked about it and shut the conversation down immediately.
Quote:JK7
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
Which actually was Neil Jenkins was doing, in making a point while the game was still in play once the final whistle goes it's just a smacked botty for the officials. Just saying.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:17:28:35 by shipwrecked.
Quote:JK7
If that's true it's pretty shocking. 3 seconds, fair enough, but 3 minutes?? How on earth does that happen?
A combination of cheating by Quins and incompetence from the officials that really needs looking at. Ugo described it as 'slightly early', so maybe it wasn't 3 mins?
Well that’s the rub isn’t it. If purely down to poor officiating and he was told t go back on then not Quins fault.
If they knowingly get him on 3 minutes earlier then you would expect further action.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
It wouldn’t have been so bad but he had a n immediate impact and a huge last 8 minutes and probably should not have been on the field for 3 + of them.
Like I said not sure who is at fault - if it is Quins then the fingers will be pointed - if it is the officials again who were appalling the - Woodthorpe appeared out of his depth. Carley was non existent while to be fair the other touch judge was alright apart from the obvious touch call when Muir lost the ball back and it hit Care on the way out, but at least he gave Muir ‘s try as Woodthorpe looking to let Quins off again.
Like I said not sure who is at fault - if it is Quins then the fingers will be pointed - if it is the officials again who were appalling the - Woodthorpe appeared out of his depth. Carley was non existent while to be fair the other touch judge was alright apart from the obvious touch call when Muir lost the ball back and it hit Care on the way out, but at least he gave Muir ‘s try as Woodthorpe looking to let Quins off again.
No doubt It'll be swept under the carpet, TNT will gurn about how 'brilliant 'The Run In'©' is, and the officiating team will be elevated to international duty
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:JK7
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
Which actually was Neil Jenkins was doing, in making a point while the game was still in play once the final whistle goes it's just a smacked botty for the officials. Just saying.
Disagree with that SW - I wouldn't want one of our coaches sticking on a bib and coming on to be petulant to the ref. Any one of them could have gone and had a word with the officials on the sideline.
It's also a different issue. The Jenkins complaint was a high tackle - those get missed, get on with it. Allowing a player back on the field that early is black and white and a serious concern.
Not doubting what anyone saw but I really find it hard to believe it was 3 mins, there must have been some confusion with what was being displayed.
Quote:A.M 180
No doubt It'll be swept under the carpet, TNT will gurn about how 'brilliant 'The Run In'©' is, and the officiating team will be elevated to international duty
Shouldn’t be, if Quins have knowingly cheated to gain an unfair advantage then I would hope for an investigation and sanctions.
Note I say if, given the lacklustre officiating today that could well be to blame for the incident
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:17:43:54 by Toast and Marmite.
Quote:JK7
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
May have misheard, but I thought he said they flagged it at the time.
PG
Sorry, should have read up rather than spend minutes trying to type on my phone
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:17:53:06 by Which Tyler.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:17:53:06 by Which Tyler.
PG who knows - I know the TMO was desperately trying to get Woodthorpes attention for Lynaghs try to highlight the Quins knock on - by the time he did Woodthorpe dismissed it.
Quins if they are to blame well Bloodgate rears its ugly head again they do have previous for cheating and as was pointed out on numerous occasions this was a must win game for them.
It all comes down to who is responsible for Hrbsts reintroduction. If Quins then questions need to be asked if officials then it will be swept under the carpet - no one will address Woodthorpes appalling officiating - the term over promoted comes to mind.
Quins if they are to blame well Bloodgate rears its ugly head again they do have previous for cheating and as was pointed out on numerous occasions this was a must win game for them.
It all comes down to who is responsible for Hrbsts reintroduction. If Quins then questions need to be asked if officials then it will be swept under the carpet - no one will address Woodthorpes appalling officiating - the term over promoted comes to mind.
Quote:JK7Quote:shipwreckedQuote:JK7
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
Which actually was Neil Jenkins was doing, in making a point while the game was still in play once the final whistle goes it's just a smacked botty for the officials. Just saying.
Disagree with that SW - I wouldn't want one of our coaches sticking on a bib and coming on to be petulant to the ref. Any one of them could have gone and had a word with the officials on the sideline.
It's also a different issue. The Jenkins complaint was a high tackle - those get missed, get on with it. Allowing a player back on the field that early is black and white and a serious concern.
Not doubting what anyone saw but I really find it hard to believe it was 3 mins, there must have been some confusion with what was being displayed.
The point wasn't about NK JK the point is that there isn't, (or is there?) a mechanism to make a complaint about an error while the game is in progress.
If the game IS in progress and there were a mechanism then the error can be rectified. There isn't so the team suffering the injustice can do nothing but complain after the event when there is no way of changing anything.
That fact might have cost Bath Rugby 3 points, that, in this season might be critical.
Quote:Now that's simply not true.shipwreckedQuote:JK7
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
Which actually was Neil Jenkins was doing, in making a point while the game was still in play once the final whistle goes it's just a smacked botty for the officials. Just saying.
1 is following the official feedback pathways, and the other is being actively and illegally insolent of the referee on his pitch.
I less you genuinely can't see a difference between screaming in the face of a copper in the execution of their duty, versus writing a letter to their senior officer after the event.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:18:04:19 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Now that's simply not true.shipwreckedQuote:JK7
To be honest, it would also be pretty poor from Bath not to raise it - JVG said they flagged it after the game which will achieve nothing.
Which actually was Neil Jenkins was doing, in making a point while the game was still in play once the final whistle goes it's just a smacked botty for the officials. Just saying.
1 is following g the official feedback pathways, and the other is being actively and illegally insolent of the referee on his pitch.
Are there any when the game is STILL happening, this is the point I'm trying, badly, to make?
Seems a straightforward point to me, if the player went on 3 minutes early then Quins cheated and the officials are incompetent.
If he didn’t then it’s a non event.
If he didn’t then it’s a non event.
Don’t think it’s Quins’ fault. It’s not up to them to keep the time- the officials must say when Herbst is allowed back on.
If Quins were told his time on the naughty step was up, and he could return, they aren’t going to check the clock nor should they. If they tried a fast one, and just got him running back onto the pitch early, then it’s not great but still up to the officials to stop it.
That aside, a Quins performance like that was always likely after last week. We were half a step off and very inaccurate but they were so quick and clinical. Without singling out individuals (as first 50 were collectively poor) all the players rotated in showed why they’re behind the 1st XV picks. Bench was superb, including Schreuder, especially Barbeary. Thought du plessis was a mixed bag but think he’ll be great once he gets settled and some game time- huge engine.
2 points before KO would have been an ok outcome. 2 points with 20 minutes to go shows huge fight and is a great result. Onwards.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
If Quins were told his time on the naughty step was up, and he could return, they aren’t going to check the clock nor should they. If they tried a fast one, and just got him running back onto the pitch early, then it’s not great but still up to the officials to stop it.
That aside, a Quins performance like that was always likely after last week. We were half a step off and very inaccurate but they were so quick and clinical. Without singling out individuals (as first 50 were collectively poor) all the players rotated in showed why they’re behind the 1st XV picks. Bench was superb, including Schreuder, especially Barbeary. Thought du plessis was a mixed bag but think he’ll be great once he gets settled and some game time- huge engine.
2 points before KO would have been an ok outcome. 2 points with 20 minutes to go shows huge fight and is a great result. Onwards.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:yeah, you made that whilst I was typing.OutsideBath
Seems a straightforward point to me, if the player went on 3 minutes early then Quins cheated and the officials are incompetent.
If he didn’t then it’s a non event.
A] There is an official procedure - the captain has a respectfully word with the ref.
B] It's never with a view of reversing a decision that has been and gone.
C] Insolence on the pitch is never the answer.
D] I imagine that the 4th official would be fine receiving respectful feedback from coaching teams during play.
On the incident itself, has anyone with a recording actually gone back and checked the time stamp for Herbst card and his return? Rather than relying on TNT's card timer.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:18:13:28 by Which Tyler.
The Telegraph:
'The South African lock was sent to the sin-bin after 63 minutes and 52 seconds of what turned into one of the matches of the season.
Herbst should have been off the field for 10 minutes, but television pictures showed him returning to the action after 70 minutes and 51 seconds - a full three minutes early.
...
(JVG) said: “I flagged with the referee after the game but there is not a lot he can do on the pitch, he wasn’t even aware of it. We made the fourth official aware, it was a massive call in the context of the game with the player that came back on making the tackle in the corner. With a yellow card you are supposed to be off for 10 minutes not seven. It is going to go to Paul Hull and I will let the process follow its course.”
It is unclear what punishment there might be if it is confirmed that Harlequins had an extra player on the pitch. England were fined £10,000 during the 2003 World Cup when they briefly had 16 players on the pitch when they played Samoa.'
It's not clear from that when Bath reported it to the fourth official, sort of sounds like it was during the game. JVG magnanimously says there's nothing the ref could do. Far from ideal but couldn't you just send him back off for another 3 mins?
'The South African lock was sent to the sin-bin after 63 minutes and 52 seconds of what turned into one of the matches of the season.
Herbst should have been off the field for 10 minutes, but television pictures showed him returning to the action after 70 minutes and 51 seconds - a full three minutes early.
...
(JVG) said: “I flagged with the referee after the game but there is not a lot he can do on the pitch, he wasn’t even aware of it. We made the fourth official aware, it was a massive call in the context of the game with the player that came back on making the tackle in the corner. With a yellow card you are supposed to be off for 10 minutes not seven. It is going to go to Paul Hull and I will let the process follow its course.”
It is unclear what punishment there might be if it is confirmed that Harlequins had an extra player on the pitch. England were fined £10,000 during the 2003 World Cup when they briefly had 16 players on the pitch when they played Samoa.'
It's not clear from that when Bath reported it to the fourth official, sort of sounds like it was during the game. JVG magnanimously says there's nothing the ref could do. Far from ideal but couldn't you just send him back off for another 3 mins?
I've just watched the interview with the Quins coach. He is being disingenuous to say the least.Just watch the faces of BOD and Dallaglio.
Quote:Thank youJK7
The Telegraph:
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I agree Millard demeanour was not great - he was completely dismissive but more importantly not shocked and shut the conversation down immediately- Ugo Moyne obviously assisted him - agree LoL and BoD looked bemused at Millard.
Surely there must be a protocol as to who lets the player back on - like I said if it is the official then it a question for the Refs Board - if it is Quins well!!!!
If England were fined for a similar incident it would suggest that Quins maybe behind it.
Surely there must be a protocol as to who lets the player back on - like I said if it is the official then it a question for the Refs Board - if it is Quins well!!!!
If England were fined for a similar incident it would suggest that Quins maybe behind it.
If it was over 3 mins early that's an absurd mistake that v probably impacted the result.
We are cutting through them with ease over and over again when they were down to 13.
Combined with tmo flagging the knock on too late to disallow the quins try its a fairly abysmal day for the officials.
Do we believe that quins had no idea when their players 10 mins should be up? Hmm... not sure i can comprehend that. if felt strange at the time that we had so little time to take advantage.
Our own fault being being abysmal for 60 minutes tbh. We were so far off the pace and made so many basic errors.
What I like is I feel like I can trust this squad- they tend to perform (quins just capitulated fully last week). Only game given selections we should really have won that we lost was probably leic at home in oct.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:18:53:34 by Charlieboa1.
We are cutting through them with ease over and over again when they were down to 13.
Combined with tmo flagging the knock on too late to disallow the quins try its a fairly abysmal day for the officials.
Do we believe that quins had no idea when their players 10 mins should be up? Hmm... not sure i can comprehend that. if felt strange at the time that we had so little time to take advantage.
Our own fault being being abysmal for 60 minutes tbh. We were so far off the pace and made so many basic errors.
What I like is I feel like I can trust this squad- they tend to perform (quins just capitulated fully last week). Only game given selections we should really have won that we lost was probably leic at home in oct.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:18:53:34 by Charlieboa1.
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Yes, I thought I heard that.
If he just ignored it and went on, then Quins have something to answer for
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:30:18:58:53 by A.M 180.
Quote:twsaint
I've just watched the interview with the Quins coach. He is being disingenuous to say the least.Just watch the faces of BOD and Dallaglio.
It’s Quins, they have history so we shouldn’t be surprised.
I have a feeling this will either be brushed under the carpet or will turn ugly for Quins - firstly I thought for 50 minutes Quins were unworldly their hands and ability to boss the game was brilliant - however it clearly took it’s toll on them and they ran out of steam at the 60 minute mark.
It was all Bath from then on and this incident and Hrbsts affect on the match was huge. I do think if we had another 3 minutes against 13 with Finn bossing the game we would have won - so for that reason I do not believe JvG will let this lie.
It was all Bath from then on and this incident and Hrbsts affect on the match was huge. I do think if we had another 3 minutes against 13 with Finn bossing the game we would have won - so for that reason I do not believe JvG will let this lie.
JvG's interview after the game where he said "we trust the process" was polite as always but I just got the feeling that is about the closest we will se him get to being really angry!
Not a single unnecessary word.
We will see about the process, I'm not confident.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Not a single unnecessary word.
We will see about the process, I'm not confident.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Thank youJK7
The Telegraph:
It is in The Times and Planet Rugby as well.
This could run for a while.
PG
My hunch is this will descend into 'any team would try their luck' and 'rugbys all about the dark arts' among certain writers/podcasters this week
Quote:A.M 180
My hunch is this will descend into 'any team would try their luck' and 'rugbys all about the dark arts' among certain writers/podcasters this week
Quins as a club pretty much got away with bloodgate so no doubt this will be brushed under the carpet as well.
May not have affected the result, but if proven says a lot about the integrity of their coaches who would have known exactly how long the player had been off for.
I am inclined to think it's more the fault of the officials than Quins. As DB said, if they're told he can go on they aren't obliged to question it. Surely players don't just wander back on whenever they feel like it?
Someone in that stadium (or in a TV truck) in an official capacity must be counting down how much time is on the card and they've fouled up in a way that's going to be very hard to explain.
Someone in that stadium (or in a TV truck) in an official capacity must be counting down how much time is on the card and they've fouled up in a way that's going to be very hard to explain.
Quote:JK7
I am inclined to think it's more the fault of the officials than Quins. As DB said, if they're told he can go on they aren't obliged to question it. Surely players don't just wander back on whenever they feel like it?
Someone in that stadium (or in a TV truck) in an official capacity must be counting down how much time is on the card and they've fouled up in a way that's going to be very hard to explain.
I disagree, if the officials told Quins he could return their coach would have said that when questioned in interview afterwards. He didn’t, so that infers Quins tried it on and got away with it.
Assuming that he actually went on 3 mins early of course.
There were several dodgy decisions that the TMO ignored or was too late reviewing. He tried to get the ref to look at the knock on that lead to a try leading the ref to apologise to Bath. There was a lineout near Quins line given to Quins but clearly should have been an attacking line out to Bath. Another try from Quins came from a Quins player lying the wrong side of the ruck kicked the ball away for Quins to run onto.
Then the worse decision of all was Herbst returning. It was very early as he was in the lineout before the clearout. I reckon he was back after 5:30 minutes. What didn't help was taking an age to restart the game. The ref stopped the clock but it was still gamesmanship by Quins. It left a nasty taste in the mouth.
Then the worse decision of all was Herbst returning. It was very early as he was in the lineout before the clearout. I reckon he was back after 5:30 minutes. What didn't help was taking an age to restart the game. The ref stopped the clock but it was still gamesmanship by Quins. It left a nasty taste in the mouth.
I suspect it's entirely down to a big error on the part of the officiating team (Not the ref) and Quins took advantage but citing Bloodgate as evidence of Quins being cheats is a bit off; that happened in 2009.
Quote:hear hear.TomReagan
I suspect it's entirely down to a big error on the part of the officiating team (Not the ref) and Quins took advantage but citing Bloodgate as evidence of Quins being cheats is a bit off; that happened in 2009.
Bloodgate is utterly irrelevant here.
The most likely explanation is the 4th official looking at the wrong clock. I can't see the player or the club trying this on as the cha ces are being caught are pretty much 100%, and the consequences would be way too severe to be worth it.
Player isn't going to be looking at the time, if the 4th official tells him he can go back on, he's not going to question it, or know that he should.
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Quote:TomReagan
I suspect it's entirely down to a big error on the part of the officiating team (Not the ref) and Quins took advantage but citing Bloodgate as evidence of Quins being cheats is a bit off; that happened in 2009.
Tom why? If and only if this falls on Quins making a deliberate attempt to put a player on who shouldn’t be then surely as a disciplinary committee would do, you then look to the past to see if there is any previous incidents yes a long time ago but as they say more reason to make sure you are squeaky clean.
If and as I said ONLY if this found out to be cheating and not an official error is it not right and proper previous offending within reason should be brought up they would in a Court of Law.
Quote:Ali1969Quote:TomReagan
I suspect it's entirely down to a big error on the part of the officiating team (Not the ref) and Quins took advantage but citing Bloodgate as evidence of Quins being cheats is a bit off; that happened in 2009.
Tom why? If and only if this falls on Quins making a deliberate attempt to put a player on who shouldn’t be then surely as a disciplinary committee would do, you then look to the past to see if there is any previous incidents yes a long time ago but as they say more reason to make sure you are squeaky clean.
If and as I said ONLY if this found out to be cheating and not an official error is it not right and proper previous offending within reason should be brought up they would in a Court of Law.
Is anyone still at the club that had anything to do with Bloodgate? I don't mean the likes of Care and Marler, but people who could be held genuinely responsible for the actions of those directly involved, the culture etc. I honestly don't know, but to me it doesn't seem to have any bearing on what they do in 2024.
A couple of people at Quins 15 years ago cynically cheated and people want to infer what exactly, that there's a culture of cheating or that they need to make extra effort to be squeaky clean? Sorry, but I can't accept that, and if it had been us all that time ago I suspect Bath fans would find it very tiresome to have that thrown at us ad nauseum. At what point can we draw a line in the sand on that one? Should we be critical of Falcons for recruiting Dean Richards after his ban expired? Does that mean they condone cheating? All seems a bit judgemental and pious to me.
Agreed Tom.
Coincidentsl, but irrelevant.
Today's incident, whether official error, or deliberate cheating is a stand alone incident.
PG
Coincidentsl, but irrelevant.
Today's incident, whether official error, or deliberate cheating is a stand alone incident.
PG
Tom, Lets wait to see who is made accountable if anyone but if Quins are charged whatever we think their past will be taken into account as a club. I agree it is unfortunate and somewhat unfair but that is the way it is.
The issue isn't just about a player being on 3 minutes early it is that Bath missed out on playing against 13 men for 3 minutes when we were on fire.
Quote:hemington
The issue isn't just about a player being on 3 minutes early it is that Bath missed out on playing against 13 men for 3 minutes when we were on fire.
This. One more try when down to 13 and we prob would have won.
And we really believe that the player didn't know when roughly he was off and when he was due back on!? Sorry , agree you take advantage if officials wave you on but you know if you are allowed back on ever 3 mins early dont you!? You and your staff surely tailor your actions during the 10 mins based on when you are due back on?
Maybe I am overestimating how professional these professional teams are. Was a crazy game and things get muddled.
As I say previously we only have ourselves to blame, you can't be awful for 55 mins and expect to win.
Quote:And you know this to be a fact? As to the references to legal precedents, past convictions are obviously taken into account when trying individuals, but I'm suggesting that it's stretching it a bit to talk of Quins' 'previous' when it was so long ago and was down to the actions of people who left the club ages ago. Whatever action is taken I'll hazard a guess that no reference is made to 2009 'Bloodgate' because it's totally irrelevant but respect the fact that you see it differently.Ali1969
Tom, Lets wait to see who is made accountable if anyone but if Quins are charged whatever we think their past will be taken into account as a club. I agree it is unfortunate and somewhat unfair but that is the way it is.
I didn't really like the officiating over the 80 but that is some clanger. I know the player might realise but it's the fourth official who's accountable, I believe, and I don't think anything suggests that Quins manipulated or pressured the official in any way.
Still that first 50 was an embarrassment. Poor tackling, lazy defence and no real attempt to slow it down or force Quin's to play tight. The last 30 were fun but left ourselves with too much to do. The close pick and drive still a liability too.
Still that first 50 was an embarrassment. Poor tackling, lazy defence and no real attempt to slow it down or force Quin's to play tight. The last 30 were fun but left ourselves with too much to do. The close pick and drive still a liability too.
It was an amazing comeback aided by the two yellow cards & it could have been an astonishing win but the collapse in the first 50 minutes cannot be disregarded. It is true that rival teams have suffered the same fate but that was a likely reaction following the 6 Nations & players being rested. We had only a couple of first choice players missing & will now have to rest them during the run in. I think it will be an uphill struggle.
I agree that first 50 needs addressing.
Not sure who we will need to rest during run in.
No one is now subject to any mandatory rest period as far as I know after underhill was rotated out this week.
Could be wise to give finn and ollie a week off at some stage I guess.
Not sure who we will need to rest during run in.
No one is now subject to any mandatory rest period as far as I know after underhill was rotated out this week.
Could be wise to give finn and ollie a week off at some stage I guess.
Just watched the game. Forget the comeback (fun though it was), lets not kid ourselves. Quins handed us our ar$e$ and unless we can work out why and fix it we're not going too much further. Yes, Quins had "one of those days" in the first half but we were complicit in that by missing tackles, constantly chucking the ball on the ground and making poor red zone decisions. I'd hoped we'd eradicated the last of those but it seems not.
However , the second half focus on getting the TBP and losing bonus points was Salaries-esque (intended as a backhanded compliment) and it was good to see both as evidence of a collective (and particularly Finn) mindset that can appreciate the bigger picture in the heat of battle and also of an ability to compartmentalise and not go into our shells. Both of those are things we have not had in previous seasons and its good to see the development.
My MotM - "Bubbles" Barbeary. The go-forward he brought was epic but his finish for the second try was truly world class. The thought occurs that he and Coetzee need to alternate starting and benching from now on.
A word for Marcus Smith. "Classless" seems to sum it up. And I'm a huge fan. I hope someone has a quiet word PDQ. I'm starting to think that Fin Smith may be living rent-free in his head.
On a personal note - coverage here of the final stages of the Prem season has now been switched with no notice to Fox Sports and I flatly refuse to give Rupert Murdoch any of my money. My current provider here said "Sorry, nothing we can do", I said "well, there is something I can do" and cancelled my subscription. I'm royally p1$$ed off.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:03:46:41 by joethefanatic.
However , the second half focus on getting the TBP and losing bonus points was Salaries-esque (intended as a backhanded compliment) and it was good to see both as evidence of a collective (and particularly Finn) mindset that can appreciate the bigger picture in the heat of battle and also of an ability to compartmentalise and not go into our shells. Both of those are things we have not had in previous seasons and its good to see the development.
My MotM - "Bubbles" Barbeary. The go-forward he brought was epic but his finish for the second try was truly world class. The thought occurs that he and Coetzee need to alternate starting and benching from now on.
A word for Marcus Smith. "Classless" seems to sum it up. And I'm a huge fan. I hope someone has a quiet word PDQ. I'm starting to think that Fin Smith may be living rent-free in his head.
On a personal note - coverage here of the final stages of the Prem season has now been switched with no notice to Fox Sports and I flatly refuse to give Rupert Murdoch any of my money. My current provider here said "Sorry, nothing we can do", I said "well, there is something I can do" and cancelled my subscription. I'm royally p1$$ed off.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:03:46:41 by joethefanatic.
On the yellow card controversy, the ref was stopping the clock at restarts a lot during the game. I wonder if the Herbst yellow card period had elapsed even if the game clock was still showing time to be served.
As is totally predictable (cos this is rugby - which must have more lawyers per square foot than any other game but has Laws that read like they were all drunk when they wrote them), I can't find any clear description of how the yellow card period is actually measured.
Law 9.29 just says "When a player is being cautioned and suspended for 10 minutes, the referee will show that player a yellow card. If that player later commits another yellow-card offence, the player must be sent off."
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
As is totally predictable (cos this is rugby - which must have more lawyers per square foot than any other game but has Laws that read like they were all drunk when they wrote them), I can't find any clear description of how the yellow card period is actually measured.
Law 9.29 just says "When a player is being cautioned and suspended for 10 minutes, the referee will show that player a yellow card. If that player later commits another yellow-card offence, the player must be sent off."
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
For the last 29 years, it's 10 minutes on the match clock. It's never been 10 minutes of real-time elapsed.
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:05:56:33 by Which Tyler.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:05:56:33 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which Tyler
For the last 29 years, it's 10 minutes on the match clock. It's never been 10 minutes of real-time elapsed.
I agree but I can't find it written down anywhere.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Yep, surely it's 10 mins of match clock - can't be anything else.
Good points joe- barbs was excellent. We need to get back to one 8 going well and the other 8 ramming it home - last 2 games it's been starting 8 hasn't been v good and sub has been barnstorming.
Agree that finn was impressive second half- he drove the team. Showed exactly what you would want to see from one of your leaders.
Marcus Smith point is fair and as oz said why isn't that a pen to us when he refused to give the ball up on the 50: 22. He can be classless as you say and I also am a huge fan of him as a player.
As you say dug our own grave first 50- i was stunned by how many basic handling errors we made. Don't think it's an exaggeration to say it was a bit reminiscent of some performances from 2 years ago.
2 match points keeps us firmly in. Can see sale winning today which would be big for us
Good points joe- barbs was excellent. We need to get back to one 8 going well and the other 8 ramming it home - last 2 games it's been starting 8 hasn't been v good and sub has been barnstorming.
Agree that finn was impressive second half- he drove the team. Showed exactly what you would want to see from one of your leaders.
Marcus Smith point is fair and as oz said why isn't that a pen to us when he refused to give the ball up on the 50: 22. He can be classless as you say and I also am a huge fan of him as a player.
As you say dug our own grave first 50- i was stunned by how many basic handling errors we made. Don't think it's an exaggeration to say it was a bit reminiscent of some performances from 2 years ago.
2 match points keeps us firmly in. Can see sale winning today which would be big for us
Most definitely it is playing time. Otherwise the team down could exploit the YC by feigning injuries!
Who is to blame? The person who allowed the player to resume playing.
Who is to blame? The person who allowed the player to resume playing.
My observation is the ref seemed to stop the time and start it, quite a bit - correctly I think. I remember thinking the TV clock guy was on it, always stopping and starting it with the ref. I'm guessing the 4th official did not keep up or had some kind of separate clock or got confused with the 2nd yellow.
Did the Lynagh yellow end at the right time?
Either way, for a league aspiring to be at the top of the professional game, it is an embarrassment. Not much that can be done now and I imagine the response will be pretty underwhelming, I'd we get one at all.
Did the Lynagh yellow end at the right time?
Either way, for a league aspiring to be at the top of the professional game, it is an embarrassment. Not much that can be done now and I imagine the response will be pretty underwhelming, I'd we get one at all.
You are about to read the funniest thing today so sit down, couldn't Herbst himself have said sorry guv my 10 minutes are not up yet, he would have probably been in shock when ordered back onto the pitch most certainly quins staff head coach etc were aware of the situation. and are probably still convulsed with laughter.
Quote:CoochieCoo
Who is to blame?
Quins unless they can prove the officials told them the player could return.
Like for a substitution you can’t return to the pitch after a 🟨 until given permission by an official!
Can’t see how Quins are to blame! Looks like another RFU/PRL officiating mistake and expect another sweep it under the carpet statement middle of next week.
Can’t see how Quins are to blame! Looks like another RFU/PRL officiating mistake and expect another sweep it under the carpet statement middle of next week.
On Marcus Smith, what was the issue? Holding on to the ball after that 50:22 was irritating but pretty much every player does that. He could do with not being so angry all the time - maybe take a cue from Fin R on that - but otherwise not sure what he did wrong other than expose our defence?
Speaking of, the first 50 was a horrible reminder of the recent past but given that we haven't played like that all season (that I can recall) I'd treat it as an anomaly and tell the players to remember what they've been doing since the tail end of last season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:17:38 by JK7.
Speaking of, the first 50 was a horrible reminder of the recent past but given that we haven't played like that all season (that I can recall) I'd treat it as an anomaly and tell the players to remember what they've been doing since the tail end of last season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:17:38 by JK7.
Quote:joethefanatic
On a personal note - coverage here of the final stages of the Prem season has now been switched with no notice to Fox Sports and I flatly refuse to give Rupert Murdoch any of my money. My current provider here said "Sorry, nothing we can do", I said "well, there is something I can do" and cancelled my subscription. I'm royally p1$$ed off.
A noble thing to do Joe, but now the Saudis are taking over sport it's going to be difficult to stick to our morals and continue watching sport on TV.
Quote:Pretty sure the ref himself doesn't keep time, the 4th official follows his instructions.The Bear
My observation is the ref seemed to stop the time and start it, quite a bit - correctly I think. I remember thinking the TV clock guy was on it, always stopping and starting it with the ref. I'm guessing the 4th official did not keep up or had some kind of separate clock or got confused with the 2nd yellow.
Did the Lynagh yellow end at the right time?
Also pretty sure the TV has direct access to the official clock these days - it's the stadium clock that can sometimes go AWOL.
Lynagh's card was after 70 minutes, and I don't remember there being any opportunity for him to come back on. But I did watch a lot of rugby yesterday, and could be getting confused.
Quote:Herbst himself almost certainly didn't know.rainbow
Couldn't Herbst himself have said sorry guv my 10 minutes are not up yet, he would have probably been in shock when ordered back onto the pitch most certainly quins staff head coach etc were aware of the situation. and are probably still convulsed with laughter.
Quote:4th official, as he's the time keeper, and the one telling players when they can return to the pitch - unless the officials can prove that Herbst returned to the pitch without permission AND that they didn't notice.OutsideBathQuote:Quins unless they can prove the officials told them the player could return.CoochieCoo
Who is to blame?
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:10:16:51 by Which Tyler.
We are going to need a name for this.
Comingbackon3minutesearlygate doesn't seem to work well.
Clockgate?
The incident seems fitting, what with the change to BST.
Comingbackon3minutesearlygate doesn't seem to work well.
Clockgate?
The incident seems fitting, what with the change to BST.
On a separate note at the end Muir went on a run, was tackled, passed the ball it went onto a Bath players leg then on to a Quins player and into touch right in front of the Touch Judge. I was about 30 yards away in the stand and it was clear as clear. The TJ said it came off a Bath leg.
Austin Healey commentated that it came off Danny Care's buttock which was absolutely accurate.
I was pleased to see this when I watched it last night when I got home as I though I was going mad.
How the TJ could not/did not see that is extraordinary as he was standing about 4 yards away with a very clear view.
I know of itself it is not hugely important but in the context of where the game was at that point.
My impression of the first 30 minutes was it was as if Bath were a scratch team who had only met in the changing room.
The bench were hugely influential, Barberry (as the Quins announcer liked to call him) Bayliss, Schreuder and Bailey
Austin Healey commentated that it came off Danny Care's buttock which was absolutely accurate.
I was pleased to see this when I watched it last night when I got home as I though I was going mad.
How the TJ could not/did not see that is extraordinary as he was standing about 4 yards away with a very clear view.
I know of itself it is not hugely important but in the context of where the game was at that point.
My impression of the first 30 minutes was it was as if Bath were a scratch team who had only met in the changing room.
The bench were hugely influential, Barberry (as the Quins announcer liked to call him) Bayliss, Schreuder and Bailey
Herbsgate aside think there are positives to take for the game. Namely who didn’t start and can come in to make an impact
Annett/Schoeman/Stuart/Stooke/Bayliss/Barbs all were great off the bench and the ability for them to start next week will be great. Schreuder and Bailey both had great cameo’s
Some players looked a bit off the pace - some more rotation for Europe and could put a team like this out.
1. Schoeman
2. Annett
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. Stooke
6. Hill
7. Underhill
8. Barbs
9. Spencer
10. Russell
11. Grace
12. Redpath
13. Lawrence
14 Cokansiga
15. Bailey
Would be 10 changes to the team yet you wouldn’t say it’s any weaker. The strength in depth is what will carry this team to a top 2 spot.
Top 2 spot more important than ever - top teams this year just don’t seem to be able to go and win against each other away from home.
Annett/Schoeman/Stuart/Stooke/Bayliss/Barbs all were great off the bench and the ability for them to start next week will be great. Schreuder and Bailey both had great cameo’s
Some players looked a bit off the pace - some more rotation for Europe and could put a team like this out.
1. Schoeman
2. Annett
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. Stooke
6. Hill
7. Underhill
8. Barbs
9. Spencer
10. Russell
11. Grace
12. Redpath
13. Lawrence
14 Cokansiga
15. Bailey
Would be 10 changes to the team yet you wouldn’t say it’s any weaker. The strength in depth is what will carry this team to a top 2 spot.
Top 2 spot more important than ever - top teams this year just don’t seem to be able to go and win against each other away from home.
[quote Bath Supporter Jack]On a separate note at the end Muir went on a run, was tackled, passed the ball it went onto a Bath players leg then on to a Quins player and into touch right in front of the Touch Judge. I was about 30 yards away in the stand and it was clear as clear. The TJ said it came off a Bath leg.
/quote]
This was weird. I can see how they didn't spot it live but they replayed it several times with I think the ref, possibly the touch judge, saying more than once that it came off Bath. I was very, very clear that it didn't. Strange.
It's not a massive moment in the context of the game (though at that point it could have made things interesting), but it's the sort of thing where I'd like to sit down with the officials afterwards and ask them what they possibly could have seen to contradict something so straightforward.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:54:50 by JK7.
/quote]
This was weird. I can see how they didn't spot it live but they replayed it several times with I think the ref, possibly the touch judge, saying more than once that it came off Bath. I was very, very clear that it didn't. Strange.
It's not a massive moment in the context of the game (though at that point it could have made things interesting), but it's the sort of thing where I'd like to sit down with the officials afterwards and ask them what they possibly could have seen to contradict something so straightforward.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:54:50 by JK7.
Another officiating major error that benefits Quins, two in two weeks… And nothing that happens about it is going to change the league point awarded.
If Quins are found to be responsible and get a fine is that an invitation to rich owners to buy their way out of yellow cards? Joking.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:10:51:26 by dcsh.
If Quins are found to be responsible and get a fine is that an invitation to rich owners to buy their way out of yellow cards? Joking.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:10:51:26 by dcsh.
To be fair to Woodthorpe who had a shocking game he did pick up the Quins were totally shot and out on their feet - their time wasting was obvious and Woodthorpe did rightly stop the clock as for Smith he is such a talent but God he is petulant he did the same at the Rec denying us a quick throw in which Luke Pearce correctly penalised him for - to be fair this time due to 50:22 we were only 5m out anyway and had the put in. He is as someone else said a very classy player but always has that classless attitude in him.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:10:42 by Ali1969.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:10:42 by Ali1969.
Quote:OldMarovian
On side note Herbsgate sounds like a vegan cafe in Bath.
That’s The Green Rocket OM.
Try it next time you are in town!
PG
Chris Jones on X
[twitter.com]
‘No change to @Harlequins v @BathRugby result stands
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match”
‘
[twitter.com]
‘No change to @Harlequins v @BathRugby result stands
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match”
‘
Quote:tigersimon
Chris Jones on X
[twitter.com]
‘No change to @Harlequins v @BathRugby result stands
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match”
‘
I don't think anyone was expecting a change to the result but if that's all they have to say on it, that's not good enough. Tell us what happened.
The Full Statement:
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match between Harlequins v Bath where a yellow card sanction resulted in Irné Herbst returning to the pitch approximately three minutes too soon.
We would like to apologise to both teams for this mistake. As is the usual process the PGMOT will review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings.
The result of the match remains final.
----------------------
Apologies to both teams! Imagine that
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match between Harlequins v Bath where a yellow card sanction resulted in Irné Herbst returning to the pitch approximately three minutes too soon.
We would like to apologise to both teams for this mistake. As is the usual process the PGMOT will review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings.
The result of the match remains final.
----------------------
Apologies to both teams! Imagine that
Disgraceful- - mater swept before too many questions asked. Another example where the truth as to who and why it happened will be suppressed.
(edit - not worth commnting)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:31:58 by raedarius.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:11:31:58 by raedarius.
Quote:JK7Quote:tigersimon
Chris Jones on X
[twitter.com]
‘No change to @Harlequins v @BathRugby result stands
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match”
‘
I don't think anyone was expecting a change to the result but if that's all they have to say on it, that's not good enough. Tell us what happened.
+1
Totally swept under the carpet like last week involving Quins captain.
If the officials were 100% to blame then they need to be suspended. Just not good enough.
'We apologise to Harlequins for making their lives significantly easier and possibly handing them 3 league points. We'll get better next week.'
Full statement
“RFU PROFESSIONAL GAME MATCH OFFICIALS TEAM STATEMENT
The RFU Professional Game Match Offficials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match between Harlequins v Bath where a yellow card sanction resulted in Irné Herbst returning to the pitch approximately three minutes too soon.
We would like to apologise to both teams for the mistake. As is the usual process the PGMOT will review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings.
The result of the match remains final. “
“RFU PROFESSIONAL GAME MATCH OFFICIALS TEAM STATEMENT
The RFU Professional Game Match Offficials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match between Harlequins v Bath where a yellow card sanction resulted in Irné Herbst returning to the pitch approximately three minutes too soon.
We would like to apologise to both teams for the mistake. As is the usual process the PGMOT will review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings.
The result of the match remains final. “
Quote:tigersimon
Full statement
“RFU PROFESSIONAL GAME MATCH OFFICIALS TEAM STATEMENT
The RFU Professional Game Match Offficials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match between Harlequins v Bath where a yellow card sanction resulted in Irné Herbst returning to the pitch approximately three minutes too soon.
We would like to apologise to both teams for the mistake. As is the usual process the PGMOT will review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings.
The result of the match remains final. “
Imagine quins are delighted to accept the apology ton behalf of both teams
At least it’s a timely statement this week and they have admitted making a mistake!
Which is exactly what I expected, what is the point of following procedures when there's rarely is a just decision at the end.
I get referees and officials need respect but can you respect a system that is flawed! It's a "self preservation society" Unless this is addressed there will be growing numbers of insolence and disrespect. Simply not good enough.
There should be a way of rectifying errors at the time the captain has no possibility of knowing what goes on off field.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I get referees and officials need respect but can you respect a system that is flawed! It's a "self preservation society" Unless this is addressed there will be growing numbers of insolence and disrespect. Simply not good enough.
There should be a way of rectifying errors at the time the captain has no possibility of knowing what goes on off field.
Quote:Yes it's quite noticeable that they recognise how big an error it wastigersimon
At least it’s a timely statement this week and they have admitted making a mistake!
And it's what makes it so galling
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:JK7Quote:tigersimon
Chris Jones on X
[twitter.com]
‘No change to @Harlequins v @BathRugby result stands
The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match”
‘
I don't think anyone was expecting a change to the result but if that's all they have to say on it, that's not good enough. Tell us what happened.
+1
Totally swept under the carpet like last week involving Quins captain.
If the officials were 100% to blame then they need to be suspended. Just not good enough.
You've been pretty childish about this a number of times on this thread, along with one or two others. Frankly some of the comments are disgusting.
In what way can you think any team can get a player back on the pitch early after a yellow card? No player can enter the playing field without the agreement of the officials. It really is as simple as that.
BB
Quote:tigersimon
At least it’s a timely statement this week and they have admitted making a mistake!
Indeed - the absolute bare minimum you would expect tbh given both coaches were questioned about it post game and its all over the national reports.
What level of ineptitude would the officials have to display for the ‘result of the match not to be final’ ? Quinn’s had an extra man for 10 percent of a second half the Bath steamrollered 33 points to nil. An extra 5 points would have changed the result and potentially the outcome of the season.
If this was premier league football lawyers would be consulted.
If this was premier league football lawyers would be consulted.
If we could have just defended one/two of those 6 tries we wouldn’t have been too bothered about this error.
If Bath had turned up and played in the first half then it would have been a routine win, in the end they were to blame for losing.
Quote:Beergoggles
What level of ineptitude would the officials have to display for the ‘result of the match not to be final’ ? Quinn’s had an extra man for 10 percent of a second half the Bath steamrollered 33 points to nil. An extra 5 points would have changed the result and potentially the outcome of the season.
If this was premier league football lawyers would be consulted.
I don’t think anyone was expecting the result to be changed and it most certainly shouldn’t be, but sweeping it under the carpet with no sanctions applied isn’t good enough.
Quote- An extra 5 points would have changed the result and potentially the outcome of the season.
It will probably change the outcome of the season for one or two teams at the top of the table be it top 4 or top 2
Home advantage. There’s no guarantee that Bath would have scored another try and we will never know. Does need to be a proper investigation though.
It will probably change the outcome of the season for one or two teams at the top of the table be it top 4 or top 2
Home advantage. There’s no guarantee that Bath would have scored another try and we will never know. Does need to be a proper investigation though.
The issue at stake here isn't whether Bath should have won, but the state of officiating in the GP currently
Quote:dcsh
If Bath had turned up and played in the first half then it would have been a routine win, in the end they were to blame for losing.
They were as good in the second half as they were bad in the first, however, the officials ensured the two halves were not equally officiated.
Bath won't protest about this because we are respectful. Being respectful clearly doesn't pay.
NB Neil Jenkins received no sanction for commenting to Mathieu Reynal about his belief that he had missed a high tackle.
How serious are these officials about getting it right?
It would be ridiculous to change the result, but the referees (including in the 6N) are really having a shocking time of it right now.
Quote:hasta
It would be ridiculous to change the result, but the referees (including in the 6N) are really having a shocking time of it right now.
That's not what I (and I believe others) are saying Hasta its about getting it right and preventing reoccurrence. Nobody has been made accountable, what depth of investigation could have occurred overnight?
I think amongst this we need to give some credit to Quins they played that first 50 minutes like a team possessed, I think Aly Ekyn actually said Bath have not done a lot wrong.
Then at 60 minutes they were done they were out in their feet literally and looking to waster time and hang on - and what was really noticeable was the difference between our bench and theirs - their bench didn’t energise them where as ours turned the game on its head.
I never expected the result to be changed however this is the second incident in a row from which Quins have massively benefited from - remember if Lewies had been red carded which he should have he wouldn’t have played yesterday and if Herbst had completed his requisite 10 minutes who knows he made a try saving tackle and a couple of line out catches during the 3 minutes he shouldn’t have been on.
For me it was a strange appointment Mr Woodthorpe for such a massive game - yes he and his colleagues are the future but at present the officiating is just not good enough.
This error is massive and it needs a full investigation - we are not talking seconds here we are talking in excess of 3 minutes. Just apologising is not sufficient in these circumstances a much fuller and in depth explanation is required IMHO.
Then at 60 minutes they were done they were out in their feet literally and looking to waster time and hang on - and what was really noticeable was the difference between our bench and theirs - their bench didn’t energise them where as ours turned the game on its head.
I never expected the result to be changed however this is the second incident in a row from which Quins have massively benefited from - remember if Lewies had been red carded which he should have he wouldn’t have played yesterday and if Herbst had completed his requisite 10 minutes who knows he made a try saving tackle and a couple of line out catches during the 3 minutes he shouldn’t have been on.
For me it was a strange appointment Mr Woodthorpe for such a massive game - yes he and his colleagues are the future but at present the officiating is just not good enough.
This error is massive and it needs a full investigation - we are not talking seconds here we are talking in excess of 3 minutes. Just apologising is not sufficient in these circumstances a much fuller and in depth explanation is required IMHO.
RFU have apologised, the result stands, article on The Independent website. Shambles.
Expecting a change of result is too much of a stretch I think, as is assuming there should be sanction, before the responsibility for the error can be determined.
However, the speed of the enquiry and announcement is highly suspicious -unless the PGMOT have definitively concluded that it was officials' error, rather than any fault by the player or club.
I would like a much fuller explanation.
Also the processes need to be tightened to prevent recurrence - immediately..
PG
However, the speed of the enquiry and announcement is highly suspicious -unless the PGMOT have definitively concluded that it was officials' error, rather than any fault by the player or club.
I would like a much fuller explanation.
Also the processes need to be tightened to prevent recurrence - immediately..
PG
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:hasta
It would be ridiculous to change the result, but the referees (including in the 6N) are really having a shocking time of it right now.
That's not what I (and I believe others) are saying Hasta its about getting it right and preventing reoccurrence. Nobody has been made accountable, what depth of investigation could have occurred overnight?
There hasn’t been an investigation SW, it’s easier to just say sorry and move on. Not good enough, but are we surprised?
Quote:Have they not? or does "accountable" now mean "publicly thrown under the bus"?shipwrecked
That's not what I (and I believe others) are saying Hasta its about getting it right and preventing reoccurrence. Nobody has been made accountable, what depth of investigation could have occurred overnight?
What depth of investigation is required?
Hypothetical scenario alert:
Assessor to 4th official "What happened"
4th official "I looked at the wrong clock, he had served 10 minutes of real-time, but only 7 minutes of game-time. My fault, I apologise. Will make sure I look at the right clock next time"
Assessor to 4th official "Fair enough, and thank you for your honesty. We'll release a statement, but you'll be spending the rest of the season in the Championship, and I'll ask you to talk about your experiences at the next meeting of officials, so that everyone can learn from your mistake"
Phone down after approximately 30 seconds.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:12:30:05 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Have they not? or does "accountable" now mean "publicly thrown under the bus"?shipwrecked
That's not what I (and I believe others) are saying Hasta its about getting it right and preventing reoccurrence. Nobody has been made accountable, what depth of investigation could have occurred overnight?
What depth of investigation is required?
1) Find out what went wrong.
2) Sanction any failure.
3) Implement steps to prevent recurrence.
You can state you have taken steps. "publicly thrown under the bus" depends on how the officials handle it.
Quote:Shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
I'd like to know what happened here as well.
Investigate the facts.
Quote:A.M 180
The issue at stake here isn't whether Bath should have won, but the state of officiating in the GP currently
It's of course the second week in a row in which the officials have been in the news - last week it was "Austingate".
We can all accept that human error is part of the game. Players knock on, referees miss forward passes etc etc - we can live with that, albeit after a good grumble.
What is not so acceptable however is that in a professional game where results really matter systems are not in place to ensure that timekeeping is accurate and that commentators' opinions are kept away from officials making decisions. In such circumstances attention to detail is vital, it's part of being professional in the broader sense of the word especially when so much - in terms of both prestige and money - is at stake.
Seems reasonable WT.
Clearly appears to be an officials error but v surprised people don't feel quins would have been aware ( you take your good luck so no quibbles with that)- if his binning had gone on longer than 10 mins it would be utter incompetence on their part to not notice and flag it. Whenever a binning happens I make a mental note of the minute they will be due back- surely the actual club staff and players do similar!?
Clearly appears to be an officials error but v surprised people don't feel quins would have been aware ( you take your good luck so no quibbles with that)- if his binning had gone on longer than 10 mins it would be utter incompetence on their part to not notice and flag it. Whenever a binning happens I make a mental note of the minute they will be due back- surely the actual club staff and players do similar!?
Quote:My apologies, I was under the impression that your words "what depth of investigation could have occurred overnight?" meant that you felt those steps couldn't be handled overnight.shipwrecked
1) Find out what went wrong.
2) Sanction any failure.
3) Implement steps to prevent recurrence.
Obviously this is my mistake, and you agree that those points could all be completed in full with a rather short conversation, that could easily occur before anyone has left the stadium, let alone overnight.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Which TylerQuote:My apologies, I was under the impression that your words "what depth of investigation could have occurred overnight?" meant that you felt those steps couldn't be handled overnight.shipwrecked
1) Find out what went wrong.
2) Sanction any failure.
3) Implement steps to prevent recurrence.
Obviously this is my mistake, and you agree that those points could all be completed in full with a rather short conversation, that could easily occur before anyone has left the stadium, let alone overnight.
Clearly you think that this has been handled satisfactorily WT.
I don't agree.
Wouldn't you get the video evidence and examine the time line, collect statements from both clubs involving the players and club coaches. Get statements from the officials themselves then assemble a picture of what happened. Wouldn't you perhaps assemble an independent group to establish if an error had occurred then agree with the officiating bodies involved a course of action to prevent reoccurrence, then release a statement.
Not sure you can do that over the phone in that time period.
Quote:Why would you do all of that if the 4th official puts his hands up and says "my fault, I did {A}, I should have done {B}"shipwrecked
Wouldn't you get the video evidence and examine the time line, collect statements from both clubs involving the players and club coaches. Get statements from the officials themselves then assemble a picture of what happened. Wouldn't you perhaps assemble an independent group to establish if an error had occurred then agree with the officiating bodies involved a course of action to prevent reoccurrence, then release a statement.
Not sure you can do that over the phone in that time period.
What would video evidence add to that? What would statements from players or coaches add to that?
I just don't see what more you want, that would actually be of any benefit (but I can pretty much guarantee that if they'd left it for the bank holiday, and started doing all of that on Tuesday. Reaching a decision by Thursday / Friday etc, you'd have been screaming blue murder that it had taken too long, been too complicated, and why on earth couldn't it have been sorted overnight the moment the 4th official admitted his mistake).
Satisfactory would have been the 4th official bringing it to the ref's attention, and admitting his mistake during the match. Penalty Bath at the point the ball was whenever that happened, Herbst sent back off to finish his full 10 minutes.
Sadly, time machines don't exist, so we have to deal within the realms of possibility.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:13:48:56 by Which Tyler.
Andrew McKenna (commentator) saying he spoke with someone sat near our bench. Bath players and staff were going bonkers during the incident apparently, so it was clearly flagged as it was happening and still the game wasn’t paused / timings checked. Makes it even worse!
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Why would you do all of that if the 4th official puts his hands up and says "my fault, I did {A}, I should have done {B}"shipwrecked
Wouldn't you get the video evidence and examine the time line, collect statements from both clubs involving the players and club coaches. Get statements from the officials themselves then assemble a picture of what happened. Wouldn't you perhaps assemble an independent group to establish if an error had occurred then agree with the officiating bodies involved a course of action to prevent reoccurrence, then release a statement.
Not sure you can do that over the phone in that time period.
What would video evidence add to that? What would statements from players or coaches add to that?
I just don't see what more you want, that would actually be of any benefit (but I can pretty much guarantee that if they'd left it for the bank holiday, and started doing all of that on Tuesday. Reaching a decision by Thursday / Friday etc, you'd have been screaming blue murder that it had taken too long, been too complicated, and why on earth couldn't it have been sorted overnight the moment the 4th official admitted his mistake)
Quote:Which Tyler
Reaching a decision by Thursday / Friday etc, you'd have been screaming blue murder that it had taken too long, been too complicated, and why on earth couldn't it have been sorted overnight the moment the 4th official admitted his mistake)
Have I a history of that the WT?
I just think that this following last week's incident needs further examination. You don't fine but there is a bit of projection going on here isn't there?
It's my view, and I'm not alone in thinking this.
In the interview with Ugo, Millard said it was the first he'd heard about it. Quite obviously not true. Quins clearly played some role. It will be interesting to see the expressions on faces on TV tonight.
You've been done , Bath.
You've been done , Bath.
Quote:Huew
Andrew McKenna (commentator) saying he spoke with someone sat near our bench. Bath players and staff were going bonkers during the incident apparently, so it was clearly flagged as it was happening and still the game wasn’t paused / timings checked. Makes it even worse!
It just gets worse.....
Like I said it's naive to think that both sets of staff don't know when players are due back on the pitch
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:31:14:17:47 by Charlieboa1.
I think ultimately the debacle won’t affect how Bath’s season ends. Saints/Sarries were and still are clear favourites for top 2, Chiefs 3rd and any one of Bath/Quins/Tigers/Bristol for 4th. Bath are unable to win away from home so there it ends.
However the last 2 weeks highlight how poor some officials are. I’d expect all the officials from the Bath/Quins game to be stood down for at least next weekend if not longer. Believe there was similar controversy at Falcons/Tigers so that needs looking at as well.
However the last 2 weeks highlight how poor some officials are. I’d expect all the officials from the Bath/Quins game to be stood down for at least next weekend if not longer. Believe there was similar controversy at Falcons/Tigers so that needs looking at as well.
Quote:Charlieboa1Quote:Huew
Andrew McKenna (commentator) saying he spoke with someone sat near our bench. Bath players and staff were going bonkers during the incident apparently, so it was clearly flagged as it was happening and still the game wasn’t paused / timings checked. Makes it even worse!
It just gets worse.....
Like I said it's naive to think that both sets of staff don't know when players are due back on the pitch
Exactly Charlie, ultimately the officials are responsible, I don’t think anyone is questioning that. But this idea that Quins aren’t professional enough to keep count of the sin bins and were oblivious to our protests on the sideline as it was kicking off are laughable. Yet they somehow got an apology this morning..!
I think Bath FC and Bruce needs to hold the authority to account it is clear there has been no investigation and it is an attempt to sweep under the carpet. At the end of the day it has massive ramifications for a number of teams not just us - it is a bit of joke to apologise to both Bath & Quins who benefited massively from the incident.
So much to unpack from the game yesterday. Firstly I thought Quins were imperious in the first half but (obviously) found our almost complete comeback in the last half hour equally brilliant and much more enjoyable! I was watching live on TnT in a room full of people and didn’t hear the ref comments @71:50 but thought it strange when Herbst was running around on the pitch with two Yellow card timers still showing on screen! The RFU statement about this is pretty much bare minimum they could put out but pretty unsatisfactory IMHO. From a personal perspective it now gets mentally filed away with incidents like Wayne Barnes bottling high tackles and late tackles in the 2015 final - although this does seem worse and more avoidable than poor on-field decisions. I’m a great believer in Karma - which never seems to even out over a match - but at some point in the future we’ll get a lucky break…hopefully in the 2024 final!
Wow if possible an even worse official decision in the Sale game. Exeter FB in sin bin for knocking on when it was 100% an attempted catch with both hands.
Officials are not covering themselves with glory this weekend
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Officials are not covering themselves with glory this weekend
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Exe trying to 'Do a Bath'?
Not convinced they have the bench to do it - and Sale are still playing well
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Sale have done us a big favour given Exeter’s run in is (on paper) more favourable than ours.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Toast and Marmite
Sale have done us a big favour given Exeter’s run in is (on paper) more favourable than ours.
True, but not sure we needed Exeter to be so awful this week. No doubt they will take it out on us next week.
Bit like Quins being humped by Sarries then destroying us in the first half this week.
Will we feel another backlash , this time from Exeter next weekend ?
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:P G TipsQuote:OldMarovian
On side note Herbsgate sounds like a vegan cafe in Bath.
That’s The Green Rocket OM.
Try it next time you are in town!
PG
Thanks PG. Do you still have the combustible burger stand at the Rec? I think that's more my thing 😀
Quote:Toast and Marmite
Wow if possible an even worse official decision in the Sale game. Exeter FB in sin bin for knocking on when it was 100% an attempted catch with both hands.
Officials are not covering themselves with glory this weekend
Yeah I thought that was a pretty terrible decision. Clearly going for the catch.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Toast and Marmite
Sale have done us a big favour given Exeter’s run in is (on paper) more favourable than ours.
True, but not sure we needed Exeter to be so awful this week. No doubt they will take it out on us next week.
Bit like Quins being humped by Sarries then destroying us in the first half this week.
Yeah that’s some downside - let’s hope we learn from the Quins game and ensure that - even if we have to reign in our play - that we are in touch at the sixty minute mark.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Seems to be a pattern of home sides scoring 3-4 tries in the first half recently, eg, Sarries, Bristol, Quins, Sale. Need to not let sides get away from us in that first half when we are away.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:B4thB4ck
We are going to need a name for this..
Timegate, surely?
Desxribes the issue and the potential solution.
Place yellow carded players behind a gate with an automatic timelock.
Only let them back on the pitch when the timelock expires and opens the gate!😀
PG
Bris smashed Saints who smashed Sarries who smashed Quins who smashed Bath who smashed Sale who smashed Exeter. Crazy couple of weeks.
Herbstgate is not why we lost yesterday. We lost because we spent 50 minutes doing a convincing impression of a series of traffic cones. We came back because Quins eased up. This is what we need to fix if we want to win the pot. Most of the other teams in contention are flawed in one way or another but Salaries in particular don't ease up.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Crazy, indeed. It should be noted, though, that the only team to win both games was Bristol. All the others, just jockeying for position for potentially a massive final week. With regard to Bath, we're second over the two weeks and have had a net gain on league position from 3rd to 2nd. Not entirely sure we should be beating ourselves up over the result...
Bristol.......10 points
Bath.............7 points
Saracens---6 points
Leicester---6 points
N'ton...........5 points
Exeter..........5 points
Sale..............5 points
Quins..........5 points
Glouc...........4 points
Newcastle. 1point
Bristol.......10 points
Bath.............7 points
Saracens---6 points
Leicester---6 points
N'ton...........5 points
Exeter..........5 points
Sale..............5 points
Quins..........5 points
Glouc...........4 points
Newcastle. 1point
Quote:joethefanatic
Most of the other teams in contention are flawed in one way or another but Salaries in particular don't ease up.
Tbf joe we lost pretty convincingly to Saints with only the final five minutes sparring our blushes after they switched off.
That said how much fun is this?
I'd much rather this sort of competition than a procession for top 4 with top 1 or 2 decided with a week to go.
Big step up for most with European rugby whilst you get to play the Battle of the Bounce-backs!
RFU apologising to quins good grief the lads on the re run tonight had been told not to cause problems with comments and they didn't Ugo "it was a good outcome" i suspect he played for quins. Quite simply quins were handed an unfair advantage. Possibly Oz might have had a few comments less than complimentary overall points wise not a bad weekend for Bath.
The RFU needs to work on the quality of the officiating - easy. Bring back Spreaders! Or is it my imagination that the quality has gone down since he moved to Europe?? He has an amazing rugby brain and I'd like to see him back coaching the Premiership refs.
Teams in 2nd to 8th have all won 8 of their 14 games.
Crazily close....
Crazily close....
Yes, it is close, all 8 playing for a semi final place with only Gloucester and Newcastle playing for pride. It is interesting that none of the top 8 have to play both Gloucester and Newcastle, if they had that might have been an advantage. Quins and Leicester the only sides without a game against either Gloucester or Newcastle.. Can't take anything for granted against those 2 though, Diamond will surely motivate Newcastle to a win and Gloucester can play well sometimes.
The apology statement is pretty insulting to Bath - why is there any sort of apology to Quins?
"Oh sorry we gave you a huge advantage that allowed you to hang on to win a game you would probably have thrown away otherwise"
The statement should have been along the lines of "We offer a huge apology to Bath and are in the process of investigating fully what happened and why, and will provide a clear and open report by Wednesday."
A few seconds early is not right, but livelable with, but 3-4 minutes against 13 is huge, and potential has very large financial as well a sporting consequences.
"Oh sorry we gave you a huge advantage that allowed you to hang on to win a game you would probably have thrown away otherwise"
The statement should have been along the lines of "We offer a huge apology to Bath and are in the process of investigating fully what happened and why, and will provide a clear and open report by Wednesday."
A few seconds early is not right, but livelable with, but 3-4 minutes against 13 is huge, and potential has very large financial as well a sporting consequences.
I don't understand why Quins are getting an apology and we aren't. Perhaps Bruce has reached for his lawyers.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanatic
I don't understand why Quins are getting an apology and we aren't. Perhaps Bruce has reached for his lawyers.
We have had an apology...irritatingly it was also extended to Quins, with no recognition of the varying impacts.
My thoughts on our four premiership games to come are two away wins, Newcasstle particularly when the game is in the spring and Chiefs, they are n ot the team of old andd I believe are currently punching above their weight. I think they will slip off the pace in the top four race.
Hopefully one win at home?? Northampton beat a strong Bath team fair and square (they didnt need reduced sin bins) at the gardens ans Sarries. Which one do you think we will win?
If we win a home game we will make top 4 maybe top 2.
Hopefully one win at home?? Northampton beat a strong Bath team fair and square (they didnt need reduced sin bins) at the gardens ans Sarries. Which one do you think we will win?
If we win a home game we will make top 4 maybe top 2.
How many points per minute did Bath score against 13 men during the period Herbst was off?
Once we know that, we can then figure out how long he didn’t serve in the sin bin and award Bath a commensurate number of points retrospectively.
Does that seem unreasonable?
Once we know that, we can then figure out how long he didn’t serve in the sin bin and award Bath a commensurate number of points retrospectively.
Does that seem unreasonable?
Quote:Barnoid
How many points per minute did Bath score against 13 men during the period Herbst was off?
Once we know that, we can then figure out how long he didn’t serve in the sin bin and award Bath a commensurate number of points retrospectively.
Does that seem unreasonable?
They didn't get any minutes against 13 I believe as Herbst came back on when Lynagh was sin binned.
The PGMOT have fairly quickly admitted their guilt regarding the Herbst incident but I can't help feeling Quins have not come out of this very well. I would be interested to see if Quins issue any statement to explain their part in the fiasco.
Quote:Francis Allen
The PGMOT have fairly quickly admitted their guilt regarding the Herbst incident but I can't help feeling Quins have not come out of this very well. I would be interested to see if Quins issue any statement to explain their part in the fiasco.
I think that's a tad unfair. If the 4th official says you can go back on, you go back on. I don't see an onus on Quins to correct the ref here. Who was being loudly corrected by us at the time, anyway. The fault is wholly with the officiating crew. But if Quins beat out, say, the Tigs by one point for 4th spot, you can imagine that words may be exchanged
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:Francis Allen
The PGMOT have fairly quickly admitted their guilt regarding the Herbst incident but I can't help feeling Quins have not come out of this very well. I would be interested to see if Quins issue any statement to explain their part in the fiasco.
It's this sort of thing that Quins get the apology for.
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:Francis Allen
The PGMOT have fairly quickly admitted their guilt regarding the Herbst incident but I can't help feeling Quins have not come out of this very well. I would be interested to see if Quins issue any statement to explain their part in the fiasco.
I think that's a tad unfair. If the 4th official says you can go back on, you go back on. I don't see an onus on Quins to correct the ref here. Who was being loudly corrected by us at the time, anyway. The fault is wholly with the officiating crew. But if Quins beat out, say, the Tigs by one point for 4th spot, you can imagine that words may be exchanged
Yes, the fault is with official but in the interest of sportsmanship could Quins have intervened?
Quote:Francis AllenQuote:joethefanaticQuote:Francis Allen
The PGMOT have fairly quickly admitted their guilt regarding the Herbst incident but I can't help feeling Quins have not come out of this very well. I would be interested to see if Quins issue any statement to explain their part in the fiasco.
I think that's a tad unfair. If the 4th official says you can go back on, you go back on. I don't see an onus on Quins to correct the ref here. Who was being loudly corrected by us at the time, anyway. The fault is wholly with the officiating crew. But if Quins beat out, say, the Tigs by one point for 4th spot, you can imagine that words may be exchanged
Yes, the fault is with official but in the interest of sportsmanship could Quins have intervened?
Sportsmanship? In rugby? The game where they who cheat best, win?
If the situation were reversed, how would we have felt if JvG had collared the 4th official to say "you've messed it up, we should be down to 13 for next 4 minutes".
We'd be saying exactly what the Quins fans are saying on their board. Ie "Not our fault if the ref screws it up".
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:01:01:41:55 by joethefanatic.
I agree Joe. My only issue is some people thinking quins are incompetent enough to not have known they were being a gifted an unfair advantage- have no issue with them taking it.
Just so frustrating that even with Bath players and staff flagging the mistake they presumably didn't check or try and piece it together properly.
Just get the ref to pause the game for a minute , speak to tmo, minute of the binning plus 10 isnt rocket science.... just get such a huge decision right.
2 days on and I am still staggered at the incompetence.
Just so frustrating that even with Bath players and staff flagging the mistake they presumably didn't check or try and piece it together properly.
Just get the ref to pause the game for a minute , speak to tmo, minute of the binning plus 10 isnt rocket science.... just get such a huge decision right.
2 days on and I am still staggered at the incompetence.
Impressed that you still find incompetence staggering. I became reconciled to it a long time ago. It's everywhere!
You'd think the Quins 'management' would have been surprised. The players don't sit on the naughty step for 10 minutes moping. The management will work out what minute on the match clock the player will return, and then they will start warming up again some minutes before that. They will have known that Herbst was still in the early stages of warming up when given to go ahead to return.
That doesn't really make Quins complicit, BUT for 2 matches in a row, howlers by the officiating team have resulted in them gaining an advantage for and in the Bath game. (Lewies would have been banned, Herbst wouldn't have been on the pitch for a further 3-4 minutes).
The apology is pretty pathetic.
That doesn't really make Quins complicit, BUT for 2 matches in a row, howlers by the officiating team have resulted in them gaining an advantage for and in the Bath game. (Lewies would have been banned, Herbst wouldn't have been on the pitch for a further 3-4 minutes).
The apology is pretty pathetic.
There is n way they could perform an complete investigation in that time. Look more like a how do we avoid any chance of tis becoming an issue to me. Conversation went something like this.
I know we cant deny the error this time as there is no interpretation required but if we apologise to both sides we avoid implying one side was disadvantaged by this. That might stop any calls for proper action.
I would be very surprised if Bruce leaves it at this.
I know we cant deny the error this time as there is no interpretation required but if we apologise to both sides we avoid implying one side was disadvantaged by this. That might stop any calls for proper action.
I would be very surprised if Bruce leaves it at this.
Quote:I always say that cheating is the oldest, most cherished tradition in rugby.joethefanatic
Sportsmanship? In rugby? The game where they who cheat best, win?
Hell, the entire sport came about because some petulant kid cheated at football.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Joethefanatic
If the situation were reversed, how would we have felt if JvG had collared the 4th official to say "you've messed it up, we should be down to 13 for next 4 minutes"
I think given what I have seen and heard of JvG that is probably exactly what he would say. He is not a man who wants to win that way.
It's called integrity.
Every coaching team will now keep a much sharper eye on yellow cards and timings!!
If Bath had done that you would have seen a Bath Official on the pitch telling the ref and TJ that the Quins player had to come off
If Bath had done that you would have seen a Bath Official on the pitch telling the ref and TJ that the Quins player had to come off
Quote:rainbow
Could someone please remind me who Brian Moore played for.
Nottingham, then Harlequins.
Why do you ask?
PG
Quote:Which Tyler
I always say that cheating is the oldest, most cherished tradition in rugby.
Agree. We can call it playing the referee if it makes us feel any better but it amounts to the same thing.
Players knocking on but still playing, players throwing obvious forward passes or failing to ground a ball but claiming it etc.
I agree that the weekends farce was exceptional even by RFU/PRL standards but I think people are kidding themselves if they think the situation would have played out differently if the teams were reversed (based on the very little we know about what transpired)
Quote:Murty7
I would be very surprised if Bruce leaves it at this.
Not sure what Bruce can do, it’s clear those in charge have moved on without actually doing anything.
If Bath complain it’s just going to come across as sour grapes.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Murty7
I would be very surprised if Bruce leaves it at this.
Not sure what Bruce can do, it’s clear those in charge have moved on without actually doing anything.
If Bath complain it’s just going to come across as sour grapes.
Sour grapes if Quins finish in 4th and Bath 5th !
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Can anyone offer an explanation for this though.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:Shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Every coaching team will now keep a much sharper eye on yellow cards and timings!!
If Bath had done that you would have seen a Bath Official on the pitch telling the ref and TJ that the Quins player had to come off
I thought it was reported by the media that they did inform the 4th official at the time and nothing was done which makes this incident even more of an issue.
Quote:Dorset Boy
You'd think the Quins 'management' would have been surprised. The players don't sit on the naughty step for 10 minutes moping. The management will work out what minute on the match clock the player will return, and then they will start warming up again some minutes before that. They will have known that Herbst was still in the early stages of warming up when given to go ahead to return.
That doesn't really make Quins complicit, BUT for 2 matches in a row, howlers by the officiating team have resulted in them gaining an advantage for and in the Bath game. (Lewies would have been banned, Herbst wouldn't have been on the pitch for a further 3-4 minutes).
The apology is pretty pathetic.
Lewies' first yellow card was for a line out infringement on a "next offence goes to the bin" warning, so under Regulation 19(4) the sending off would have been sufficient for one technical card and one foul play card. No ban would have followed.
The other suspicious part of this is that the Strength & Conditioning team get the player ready to come on at the 10 minute mark - if you hadn’t planned for that player to go back on especially in a game being played at that speed you risk muscle injuries, so one would suggest Herbst was prepared to go back on when he did?
Quote:shipwrecked
Can anyone offer an explanation for this though.Quote:Shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Indeed Shipwrecked JvG states Woodthorpe told him he had no idea of the situation - which I found strange because the 4th official would inform the on field official that the player is returning to the field and asks for permission in addition any official worth his weight would speak to the returning player to reiterate they are walking a tightrope.
Quote:Ali1969Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Every coaching team will now keep a much sharper eye on yellow cards and timings!!
If Bath had done that you would have seen a Bath Official on the pitch telling the ref and TJ that the Quins player had to come off
I thought it was reported by the media that they did inform the 4th official at the time and nothing was done which makes this incident even more of an issue.
Exactly,
It would be improper (and counter productive) for a coach to confront the referee at the time.
The issue was the 4th Official's responsibility & if it was raised with him, he should have responded.
PG
People making mistakes in the heat of the moment - accepted.
People not being open about what happened after the event - not accepted.
Pretty simple principle there.
People not being open about what happened after the event - not accepted.
Pretty simple principle there.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:Joethefanatic
If the situation were reversed, how would we have felt if JvG had collared the 4th official to say "you've messed it up, we should be down to 13 for next 4 minutes"
I think given what I have seen and heard of JvG that is probably exactly what he would say. He is not a man who wants to win that way.
It's called integrity.
Not sure about this SW. I imagine our coaches would have gone with it just as the Quins team did (and every other Prem coaching team would).
On the other hand I'd like to think that if interviewed afterwards JVG wouldn't have denied all knowledge while looking distinctly like a deer in the headlights.
Quote:Absolutely.P G TipsQuote:Ali1969Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Every coaching team will now keep a much sharper eye on yellow cards and timings!!
If Bath had done that you would have seen a Bath Official on the pitch telling the ref and TJ that the Quins player had to come off
I thought it was reported by the media that they did inform the 4th official at the time and nothing was done which makes this incident even more of an issue.
Exactly,
It would be improper (and counter productive) for a coach to confront the referee at the time.
The issue was the 4th Official's responsibility & if it was raised with him, he should have responded.
PG
4th official should have informed ref. Ref should then have blown the whistle - penalty or scrum to Bath wherever the ball is at that point (restart dependent on whether it's announced as 4th official's error or Quins' error - but ultimately, it's quins playing with an extra man). Herbst returned to the sin bin to see out his full 10 minutes.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:P G TipsQuote:rainbow
Could someone please remind me who Brian Moore played for.
Nottingham, then Harlequins.
Why do you ask?
PG
Presumably because Brian's article in the Telegraph this morning, in summary, says 'shut up Bath fans, it had no effect on the result.'
Thank you - that context was very much missing
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:JK7
Presumably because Brian's article in the Telegraph this morning, in summary, says 'shut up Bath fans, it had no effect on the result.'
It is a bit silly to suggest that if a player didn't directly affect play or was one of two tacklers their presence had no impact.
That said his basic point about about dont be rubbish for 50 minutes feels like a nail fairly firmly hit.
The problem is the officials are really poor at the moment looking across the boards - Karl Dickson, Hamish Smails, Anthony Woodthorpe and Jack Makepeace - all of these officials are and have been heavily criticised in almost every match they have officiated in and still they are given big games.
I cannot remember any season where the RFU has had to apologise as much and there have been as many officiating controversies.
Saturday as I previously mentioned affected a lot of teams - if the RFU want their beloved Quins at home in the final just put them there at the start of the season at least the rest of the clubs know how the land lies. Simple!
I cannot remember any season where the RFU has had to apologise as much and there have been as many officiating controversies.
Saturday as I previously mentioned affected a lot of teams - if the RFU want their beloved Quins at home in the final just put them there at the start of the season at least the rest of the clubs know how the land lies. Simple!
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:JK7
Presumably because Brian's article in the Telegraph this morning, in summary, says 'shut up Bath fans, it had no effect on the result.'
It is a bit silly to suggest that if a player didn't directly affect play or was one of two tacklers their presence had no impact.
That said his basic point about about dont be rubbish for 50 minutes feels like a nail fairly firmly hit.
OM that’s point Hrbst immediately was involved in a crucial try saving tackle when he shouldn’t have been on the pitch. Brian Moore for an intelligent man has always been an idiot and his dislike for Bath is well known.
P G Tips, as i suspected Moore had several seasons with the hairyqueens, he writes an article in todays DT absolutely cringing stuff relating to the part Herbst played when he came on he made a tackle but it had no effect because his playing partner was the dominant force he details Herbst part from when he came on early from his period of incarceration maybe they've introduced time of for good behaviour on the naughty step. I feel that we are not criticising sir as he intimates more the bungled efforts of off field officialdom an apology to Bath would have been fair but to include quins in that statement was like Moores article mostly grade A tripe Anyway when it came to scrummaging Moore was a lightweight up against GD. Before quins fans get upset the reason Moore was favoured years ago was because of who he played for.
Thanks rainbow - I suspected you were referring to an article, but could not find it.
Will read and make my own judgement.
PG
Will read and make my own judgement.
PG
As it's behind a paywall, all I can read is the headline and introduction that "abuse of referees is a growing problem".
Agreed.
However, I do not see somplaint about poor application of process as "abuse'.
It is highlighting error.
Had that not happened, would the PGMOT be promising to "review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings?"
PG
Agreed.
However, I do not see somplaint about poor application of process as "abuse'.
It is highlighting error.
Had that not happened, would the PGMOT be promising to "review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings?"
PG
Quote:JK7Quote:P G TipsQuote:rainbow
Could someone please remind me who Brian Moore played for.
Nottingham, then Harlequins.
Why do you ask?
PG
Presumably because Brian's article in the Telegraph this morning, in summary, says 'shut up Bath fans, it had no effect on the result.'
Brian who? He has no relevance in modern rugby.
The great Brian Clough once said “If a player is not interfering with play then he shouldn't be on the pitch”
Quote:P G Tips
Thanks rainbow - I suspected you were referring to an article, but could not find it.
Will read and make my own judgement.
PG
Article here [www.telegraph.co.uk]
Quote:SarrieboneQuote:P G Tips
Thanks rainbow - I suspected you were referring to an article, but could not find it.
Will read and make my own judgement.
PG
Article here [www.telegraph.co.uk]
Whilst I agree with not throwing officials under the bus his reasoning about the effect of the player because Bath were rubbish in the 1st half is tenuous at best. You could easily say instead that Quins were rubbish in the 2nd half and so deserved to lose. A 4 point game Brian, there is your evidence.
All we want is a full explanation, then leave it there. No need for throwing and buses.
Quote:P G Tips
As it's behind a paywall, all I can read is the headline and introduction that "abuse of referees is a growing problem".
Agreed.
However, I do not see somplaint about poor application of process as "abuse'.
It is highlighting error.
Had that not happened, would the PGMOT be promising to "review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings?"
PG
This is exactly the point there is a fine line between what the press describe as abuse and what is a refereeing/officials mistake.
There is no abuse unless it is stated with contempt, foul language or some sort of physical interaction.
Owen Farrell's illegal tackling was a fact yet when highlighted was initially termed abuse. Sadly following comments did get abusive.
Referees have to be accountable and not artificially protected. It's a difficult job but they are not alone with the Prem refs getting TV and video support and medics checking footage for head impacts.
Away from the Prem refereeing is a different matter and allowances have to be made, to be honest I've not seen much disrespect but I do watch a lot of 18-22 year olds so perhaps they are not hardened yet.
Thanks Sarriebone and B4thB4ck
Still behind a paywall.
Care to quote the key annoying passage (s)?
PG
Still behind a paywall.
Care to quote the key annoying passage (s)?
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Thanks Sarriebone and B4thB4ck
Still behind a paywall.
Care to quote the key annoying passage (s)?
PG
A bit tricky without copying the whole thing and I'm not sure if that's bad form but it's bookended by this:
"This controversy surrounds the further claim Bath’s attempted comeback against Harlequins may have been thwarted by the presence of a sin-binned player on the pitch, giving the hosts an unfair advantage. To accurately assess this claim it is necessary to look closely at the game’s timeline; what happened and when. This appears convoluted but this is the sort of detail you should examine if you are to avoid the mistake which too many people make of spotting an error and then attributing all manner of consequences to it."
(BM then breaks down, action by action, why he thinks Herbst didn't affect the result - 'he was the second tackler' etc, which doesn't hold up all that well to scrutiny)
If anyone connected with Bath is foolish enough to claim ‘we wuz robbed,’ was any official the cause of the team letting Quins’ Andre Esterhuizen score twice, or Marcus Smith, or Louis Lynagh, or Alex Dombrandt or Will Evans? Were they the reason that by the 47th minute Bath had conceded 40 points? Note that Quins did not register a single point from a penalty kick at goal, which cannot be defended. Are you seriously blaming the officials?"
He finishes by underlining what is ostensibly the point of the article, that abuse of officials is not on and used as an excuse for defeat. Which is fair enough, but hard not to feel his Quins bias is shining through.
Quote:JK7Quote:P G Tips
Thanks Sarriebone and B4thB4ck
Still behind a paywall.
Care to quote the key annoying passage (s)?
PG
A bit tricky without copying the whole thing and I'm not sure if that's bad form but it's bookended by this:
"This controversy surrounds the further claim Bath’s attempted comeback against Harlequins may have been thwarted by the presence of a sin-binned player on the pitch, giving the hosts an unfair advantage. To accurately assess this claim it is necessary to look closely at the game’s timeline; what happened and when. This appears convoluted but this is the sort of detail you should examine if you are to avoid the mistake which too many people make of spotting an error and then attributing all manner of consequences to it."
(BM then breaks down, action by action, why he thinks Herbst didn't affect the result - 'he was the second tackler' etc, which doesn't hold up all that well to scrutiny)
If anyone connected with Bath is foolish enough to claim ‘we wuz robbed,’ was any official the cause of the team letting Quins’ Andre Esterhuizen score twice, or Marcus Smith, or Louis Lynagh, or Alex Dombrandt or Will Evans? Were they the reason that by the 47th minute Bath had conceded 40 points? Note that Quins did not register a single point from a penalty kick at goal, which cannot be defended. Are you seriously blaming the officials?"
He finishes by underlining what is ostensibly the point of the article, that abuse of officials is not on and used as an excuse for defeat. Which is fair enough, but hard not to feel his Quins bias is shining through.
Does he mention the knock on for Lynagh’s try which Woodthorpe refused to listen to TMO?
Independent viewpoint, having just read Brian Moore’s article.
Firstly
“Abuse of refs is a creeping problem – rugby cannot afford to be like football”
Is totally wrong because unless you are a complete muppet anyone with any rugby knowledge is going to know Herbstgate was an error by the 4th Official!
He then goes on to say Herbst has no influence on 2/3 different occasions when he shouldn’t have been on the pitch which is B**locks because you can’t tell what would have happened against 13 players!
I agree you can’t abuse Officials and without them you haven’t got a game, however there are too many errors that cause controversy (because of the possible consequences with the league being so tight) at the moment and processes have to be better.
The process for timings of 🟨 is obviously flawed so it would be nice to hear that the PGMOT has revised the process not just an overnight statement that brush’s the issue under the carpet!
Suggested New process :-
Ref issues 🟨
Ref confirms time on match clock with 4th official/TMO and confirms return to play time
4th official notifies both teams of return to play time.
Multiple people know the return time, hence far less chance of error.
Firstly
“Abuse of refs is a creeping problem – rugby cannot afford to be like football”
Is totally wrong because unless you are a complete muppet anyone with any rugby knowledge is going to know Herbstgate was an error by the 4th Official!
He then goes on to say Herbst has no influence on 2/3 different occasions when he shouldn’t have been on the pitch which is B**locks because you can’t tell what would have happened against 13 players!
I agree you can’t abuse Officials and without them you haven’t got a game, however there are too many errors that cause controversy (because of the possible consequences with the league being so tight) at the moment and processes have to be better.
The process for timings of 🟨 is obviously flawed so it would be nice to hear that the PGMOT has revised the process not just an overnight statement that brush’s the issue under the carpet!
Suggested New process :-
Ref issues 🟨
Ref confirms time on match clock with 4th official/TMO and confirms return to play time
4th official notifies both teams of return to play time.
Multiple people know the return time, hence far less chance of error.
Sounds like he is conflating 2 didferent issues.
Did Bath “deserve” to win? Arguably not as some on here have opined.
Was there an officiating error? Yes.
Did it impact on the outcome? Highly probably.
PG
Did Bath “deserve” to win? Arguably not as some on here have opined.
Was there an officiating error? Yes.
Did it impact on the outcome? Highly probably.
PG
Brian Moore is a highly educated and erudite man who is nevertheless utterly unable to ever consider a different point of view. I have very little time for him.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Bit concerning as he is a qualified solicitor and a referee!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Moore .... sigh..... wasn't fit to lace graham dawes boots as a player.
I find it bizarre people are unable to separate 2 things- bath being rubbish for 50 mins , and quins bringing on a man over 3 mins early.
If we had been good for the whole game and matched quins all the way are we then allowed to be upset about appalling officiating? But otherwise it's irrelevant cos we deserved to lose by coming out the traps v slow?
Its just really odd logic from people I think on this.
As an aside jdp in the prem team of the week. I thought he was great. Hadn't played for ages and gets man of the match against glos and 3 weeks later puts in a massive shift on his prem debut. Impressive bloke, could be a significant signing with a bit of luck.
I find it bizarre people are unable to separate 2 things- bath being rubbish for 50 mins , and quins bringing on a man over 3 mins early.
If we had been good for the whole game and matched quins all the way are we then allowed to be upset about appalling officiating? But otherwise it's irrelevant cos we deserved to lose by coming out the traps v slow?
Its just really odd logic from people I think on this.
As an aside jdp in the prem team of the week. I thought he was great. Hadn't played for ages and gets man of the match against glos and 3 weeks later puts in a massive shift on his prem debut. Impressive bloke, could be a significant signing with a bit of luck.
Quote:shipwrecked
Bit concerning as he is a qualified solicitor and a referee!
Maybe the case SW, but in rugby terms he’s a has been who’s desperately trying to stay relevant even though he has little understanding of the modern game.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:shipwrecked
Bit concerning as he is a qualified solicitor and a referee!
Maybe the case SW, but in rugby terms he’s a has been who’s desperately trying to stay relevant even though he has little understanding of the modern game.
I was referring to this comment "unable to ever consider a different point of view." you need impartiality to be both a solicitor and a referee.
I agree that the game has overtaken him in a few areas.
In fairness, I don’t think Bath were rubbish. Nine times out of ten we’d convert those 3 or 4 chances we had in the first half.
Everything went well for Quins in the first half, things went wrong for us. It started to even out in the second half, unfortunately we ran out of time.
Everything went well for Quins in the first half, things went wrong for us. It started to even out in the second half, unfortunately we ran out of time.
Quote:by
In fairness, I don’t think Bath were rubbish. Nine times out of ten we’d convert those 3 or 4 chances we had in the first half.
Everything went well for Quins in the first half, things went wrong for us. It started to even out in the second half, unfortunately we ran out of time.
Around 3 minutes By ? 😘
The game is 80 minutes long, being rubbish for the first 50 minutes is irrelevant to the result at 80 minutes. Quins chose cynically to break the rules of the game twice in the last fifteen minutes and were punished, that created right circumstances for Bath to win the game but for a mistake by the officials. What irritates me the most was that it was highlighted to the officials at the time but it seems that they were too arrogant to redress the situation in all probability handing the win to Quins. These mistakes cannot be rectified after the game so the officials need to pay more attention to captains/teams/management during the game. Perhaps three captain challenges as in cricket could be adopted.
Quote:shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Well, he's not talking to Herbst, who has been on the pitch a full minute at that point (he is seen joining a lineout at 70.52).
A complete mess, with potentially multiple errors.
Still, it is over now.
I just hope that behind the scenes and fudged PR that robust measures are being put in place to prevent recurrence.
PG
Quote:P G TipsQuote:shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Well, he's not talking to Herbst, who has been on the pitch a full minute at that point (he is seen joining a lineout at 70.52).
A complete mess, with potentially multiple errors.
Still, it is over now.
I just hope that behind the scenes and fudged PR that robust measures are being put in place to prevent recurrence.
PG
How would we know? My hope as well but........
Ugo doing a good Brian Moore impression on his pod. 'They've made a mistake, an anomaly. He shouldn't have been on the pitch, he made a couple of tackles. But Bath, they'll be more worried about the first 50 minutes than those minutes when Herbst came on slightly early.'
Ashton makes much more of an issue of it, thankfully. Funny how these Quins guys don't think it's a big deal.
Ashton makes much more of an issue of it, thankfully. Funny how these Quins guys don't think it's a big deal.
Quote:P G Tips
I just hope that behind the scenes and fudged PR that robust measures are being put in place to prevent recurrence.
PG
Agreed.
Same with the odd TMO non-decision last week in the Quins/Sarries game.
Hopefully both incidents are anomalies and lessons can be learnt.
Where rugby continues to shoot itself in the foot is re transparency.
Why not issue a statement saying exactly what happened, why it happened and saying how they would make sure it couldn't happen again?
Quote:JK7
Ugo doing a good Brian Moore impression on his pod. 'They've made a mistake, an anomaly. He shouldn't have been on the pitch, he made a couple of tackles. But Bath, they'll be more worried about the first 50 minutes than those minutes when Herbst came on slightly early.'
Ashton makes much more of an issue of it, thankfully. Funny how these Quins guys don't think it's a big deal.
There are so many stats around to prove the disadvantage of being down to 14 and 13 men that its just embarassing to try and pretend that cos we didn't play very well for 50 mins it's a non- issue.
Once a quin I guess....
There really should be some sort of inquiry to establish how it happened. In my mind, it's either:
a/ Quins staff member trying it on with a bit of a mild gamesmanship, which they wouldn't really have expected to pull off so spectacularly ... probably just hoping they could get him back on a wee bit quicker
b/ match official just got their timings muddled up
Even if it's 'b', there is absolutely no conceivable way that, whichever Quins staff member was responsible for seeing their player back on to the pitch would have been unaware there was an error in timing.
Should we expect that person to say to the official, 'I don't think the 10 minutes is up yet' .... ? I think we should - because they would have to be pretty stupid not to understand that it would cause a pretty big furore.
If it's 'a', Quins should be deducted 2 points, if it's 'b', 1 point (IMH and entirely biased O).
a/ Quins staff member trying it on with a bit of a mild gamesmanship, which they wouldn't really have expected to pull off so spectacularly ... probably just hoping they could get him back on a wee bit quicker
b/ match official just got their timings muddled up
Even if it's 'b', there is absolutely no conceivable way that, whichever Quins staff member was responsible for seeing their player back on to the pitch would have been unaware there was an error in timing.
Should we expect that person to say to the official, 'I don't think the 10 minutes is up yet' .... ? I think we should - because they would have to be pretty stupid not to understand that it would cause a pretty big furore.
If it's 'a', Quins should be deducted 2 points, if it's 'b', 1 point (IMH and entirely biased O).
Perhaps as an ex player but these are journalists, in national press and TV.
Ugo’s comments on nearly every try is “fantastic finish” for me he just wants to be mates with everyone!
Problem is that once these reporters get a slot they stay forever regardless of performance.
Topsy Ojo offers far more but rarely seen!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Ugo’s comments on nearly every try is “fantastic finish” for me he just wants to be mates with everyone!
Problem is that once these reporters get a slot they stay forever regardless of performance.
Topsy Ojo offers far more but rarely seen!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:P G TipsQuote:shipwrecked
Listen to the TNT commentary at 71'50" match clock, ref says twice on ref mike "you're not on yet" who is he talking to?
Well, he's not talking to Herbst, who has been on the pitch a full minute at that point (he is seen joining a lineout at 70.52).
A complete mess, with potentially multiple errors.
Still, it is over now.
I just hope that behind the scenes and fudged PR that robust measures are being put in place to prevent recurrence.
PG
How would we know? My hope as well but........
The PR machine has brushed it under the carpet and moved on without confirming what changes are being made to stop this happening again or indeed how it happened in the first place. Probably too busy preparing the apology for the next round of games.
The clubs and their fans deserve better than this.
A different take on events by Robert Kitson writing today in The Guardian
"Because momentum can be devilishly hard to stop if, say, the penalty count dries up and it is no longer possible to kick to the corner, win a lineout and turn the screw. Which is why the incident in the Quins-Bath game, when the prop Irné Herbst was allowed back prematurely from the sin-bin, was a complete shocker. It is less about the actual tackles Herbst made when he was back on the field illegally than the wider range of options open to an increasingly rampant Bath had he stayed off."
"Because momentum can be devilishly hard to stop if, say, the penalty count dries up and it is no longer possible to kick to the corner, win a lineout and turn the screw. Which is why the incident in the Quins-Bath game, when the prop Irné Herbst was allowed back prematurely from the sin-bin, was a complete shocker. It is less about the actual tackles Herbst made when he was back on the field illegally than the wider range of options open to an increasingly rampant Bath had he stayed off."
I take Moore's point that Bath shipped all those points in the first half, but to try to argue that the player being on the pitch when he shouldnt have been didn't make a difference is ludicrous, it makes no sense.
Quote:bathwickboy
A different take on events by Robert Kitson writing today in The Guardian
"Because momentum can be devilishly hard to stop if, say, the penalty count dries up and it is no longer possible to kick to the corner, win a lineout and turn the screw. Which is why the incident in the Quins-Bath game, when the prop Irné Herbst was allowed back prematurely from the sin-bin, was a complete shocker. It is less about the actual tackles Herbst made when he was back on the field illegally than the wider range of options open to an increasingly rampant Bath had he stayed off."
Describing Herbst as a prop is certainly a different take.
The gist of the opinion is sound though. Well said Mr Kitson.
Not that I am arguing (as Brian Moore might have it) for a change to the result of the match. That is hard to justify. Just- as Kitson says that failure, given that it was challenged at the time, should not have happened. it was a complete shocker.
PG
Not that I am arguing (as Brian Moore might have it) for a change to the result of the match. That is hard to justify. Just- as Kitson says that failure, given that it was challenged at the time, should not have happened. it was a complete shocker.
PG
We are not ( in the nicest possible way), letting it lie.
[www.theguardian.com]
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
[www.theguardian.com]
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
I think JvG has been so @#$%& classy about this. Like not pitching a hissy fit, not overreaching but not backing down.
Quote:hasta
I think JvG has been so @#$%& classy about this. Like not pitching a hissy fit, not overreaching but not backing down.
He is a class act.
Imagine he knew immediately there was nothing much positive that could come of it for us so just highlight it with simmering anger that you keep a lid on and move on to the controllables on the back of the game.
Leavee a bad taste for me and apologising to both teams to cover themselves is rather laughable.
I wonder what they would have done if it had been pointed out immediately? I watched the replay and it was obvious to most people at the time. The assistant refs could have spoken to the ref who could have stopped the game and got him off again for the remaining 3 mins IMO. By waiting until after the game it was too late.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
By waiting until after the game it was too late.
Precisely Matt, there appears no protocol from the benches/sidelines to protest errors, with tv and replays available it makes the officials look silly!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
By waiting until after the game it was too late.
Precisely Matt, there appears no protocol from the benches/sidelines to protest errors, with tv and replays available it makes the officials look silly!
Do we need a protocol in this particular case, could someone near one of the officials just raise it politely?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:
Quite amusing how in this article the image shows Herbst hitting Stooke with a high shot!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
I am not sure that was the case - it was reported by the media that Bath made the fourth official aware at the time as reported by many “ref mike” has an official repeatedly saying No not yet, at and around the time so it is yet to be explained what this referred to as Woodthorpe claims the the was totally unaware of the issues god forbid the referee is lying to cover up the incompetence. Something to me absolutely stinks!!
If it as the RFU quickly stated an official error - fine eat some humble pie and release a full account of the issues including who was and was not aware/responsible and what steps are being taken to prevent a reoccurrence.
The apology to Quins leaves an extra sour taste as for the second week running they have benefited from official errors. The apology really should be aimed towards Bath FC and every team from Sarries to Sale who potentially have been affected by the events.
If it as the RFU quickly stated an official error - fine eat some humble pie and release a full account of the issues including who was and was not aware/responsible and what steps are being taken to prevent a reoccurrence.
The apology to Quins leaves an extra sour taste as for the second week running they have benefited from official errors. The apology really should be aimed towards Bath FC and every team from Sarries to Sale who potentially have been affected by the events.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
By waiting until after the game it was too late.
Precisely Matt, there appears no protocol from the benches/sidelines to protest errors, with tv and replays available it makes the officials look silly!
Do we need a protocol in this particular case, could someone near one of the officials just raise it politely?
If there isn't a protocol the request can simply be ignored, there is no requirement to act is there. A protocol means there is a required procedure.
Which official anyway? Which someone?
I suspect that the apology to Quins is because they will take a share of the opprobrium should they make top 4 at the expense of another team as their win will always be tainted with the what ifs.
We had them on the ropes. Critical tackles from Herbst, an extra body on the pitch narrowing the gaps, the mental boost of replenished ranks, a 70% rested Herbst returning to the fray, etc. A win for us is never guaranteed but all of the foundations were there for a likely comeback. The first 50mins don’t count for much for those 3 minutes with a 2 man advantage.
We had them on the ropes. Critical tackles from Herbst, an extra body on the pitch narrowing the gaps, the mental boost of replenished ranks, a 70% rested Herbst returning to the fray, etc. A win for us is never guaranteed but all of the foundations were there for a likely comeback. The first 50mins don’t count for much for those 3 minutes with a 2 man advantage.
Quick one- all the chat is of 3 minutes short or a 7 minute yellow card. Herbst clearly comes back on with +4 minutes on the yellow card countdown clock. 4:15 showing at the lineout he rejoins.
Not the biggest issue (that being he came on early) but it’s 10% longer than what is mostly being written about, which would’ve increased our chances even further.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Not the biggest issue (that being he came on early) but it’s 10% longer than what is mostly being written about, which would’ve increased our chances even further.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:TBF, they're already taking opprobrium with accusations of cheating to get their player on, and multiple references to Tom Williams and Dean Richards.Rawce
I suspect that the apology to Quins is because they will take a share of the opprobrium should they make top 4 at the expense of another team as their win will always be tainted with the what ifs.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:shipwrecked
If there isn't a protocol the request can simply be ignored, there is no requirement to act is there. A protocol means there is a required procedure.
Which official anyway? Which someone?
It's such a unique situation I would assume that they didn't even think of having one?
If a pterodactyl landed on the pitch there probably wouldn't be one for that either but I'm sure they could deal with it at the time - rather than post game interview:
'Jan VG that was weird when the pterodactyl landed and ate the ballboy'
'yes we raised it to the match officials after the game'
Which one - the one closest to them in Premiership Rugby kit, ideally mic'ed up.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Is it unique Matt coming on top of a TV error the week before?
With intense and detailed TV coverage there are other incidents that will arise.
Eg Smart ball gets authorised but the ref ignores the data presented. In touch, forward pass or though the posts.
Who does the coach approach and what does the assistant ref do?
It was potentially result changing, a recurrence need to be prevented I feel.
Referees will make mistakes and they will be spotted. If rugby just says sorry to these errors when results are at stake. The games loses credibility.
We should ask our selves what if that was the final, would sorry we made a boo boo be acceptable?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
With intense and detailed TV coverage there are other incidents that will arise.
Eg Smart ball gets authorised but the ref ignores the data presented. In touch, forward pass or though the posts.
Who does the coach approach and what does the assistant ref do?
It was potentially result changing, a recurrence need to be prevented I feel.
Referees will make mistakes and they will be spotted. If rugby just says sorry to these errors when results are at stake. The games loses credibility.
We should ask our selves what if that was the final, would sorry we made a boo boo be acceptable?
This isn't a 'rugby' error - it's an admin one where someone can't use a stopwatch correctly. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't even be considered a 'thing' unlike something illegal being highlighted by a pundit - which happens all the time (or by the producer showing it over and over until the ref notices).
In any event they left it until the end but I'm sure they wouldn't next time (which there will never be).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
In any event they left it until the end but I'm sure they wouldn't next time (which there will never be).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
If stopwatch technology is too prone to human error use something else.
How about a tag with a timer lock? When the timelovk allows the tag to be removed, player may return to pitch.😀
PG
How about a tag with a timer lock? When the timelovk allows the tag to be removed, player may return to pitch.😀
PG
Quote:P G Tips
How about a tag with a timer lock? When the timelovk allows the tag to be removed, player may return to pitch.😀
PG
Or a gladiator-style obstacle course where they get to return only once they completed it. Will ensure they exhausted by the time they're back on the pitch and provides secondary entertainment when the prop fails to make it up the travelator (sic) for the 5th time just before a crucial scrum...
Quote:The BearQuote:P G Tips
How about a tag with a timer lock? When the timelovk allows the tag to be removed, player may return to pitch.😀
PG
Or a gladiator-style obstacle course where they get to return only once they completed it. Will ensure they exhausted by the time they're back on the pitch and provides secondary entertainment when the prop fails to make it up the travelator (sic) for the 5th time just before a crucial scrum...
Pure Genius!
Quote:7BathMatt53
(or by the producer showing it over and over until the ref notices).
This brings to mind probably my biggest bugbear in rugby - the French seem particularly guilty of it but I don't think they're alone - of the 'home' TV producer replaying incidents in order to favour their team with say a penalty, or conversely not replaying those which would don't.
It winds me up no end that a producer/whoever is in control is allowed to do that.
Quote:BathMatt53
This isn't a 'rugby' error - it's an admin one where someone can't use a stopwatch correctly. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't even be considered a 'thing' unlike something illegal being highlighted by a pundit - which happens all the time (or by the producer showing it over and over until the ref notices).
In any event they left it until the end but I'm sure they wouldn't next time (which there will never be).
Don't refs wear two or three watches just in case of failure. Might be different now but surely the 'bin' gatekeeper whoever that is should do same?
The clock on the big screen in ground is linked to the refs time so surely the technology is there to do same for two other time pieces?
Quote:gaz59
Don't refs wear two or three watches just in case of failure. Might be different now but surely the 'bin' gatekeeper whoever that is should do same?
The clock on the big screen in ground is linked to the refs time so surely the technology is there to do same for two other time pieces?
Refs at that level don't have to keep the time. As you say there is a timekeeper and they were presumably off for a wee or 40 winks. Even a chess clock would work, player taps the top when they sit down.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
As a result of this incident has anything been changed by those in charge to stop it happening again?
Havn't commented on anything for months but this subject got me going again.
Being as objective and detached as possible, I find it extraordinary that the RFU or whoever runs this competition and organisation hasn't immediately organised and announced an enquiry. I assume something is being done behind closed doors but imvho it brings the professional game into the region of disrespect and lack of professionalsm. Can you imagine the hoooooo haaaaa if this was Association Football? I am not writing this because I think it would/could have changed the outcome of this particular match btw.
Incredulity that no-one thought to prevent the Quins player from returning to the pitch before 'things checked out - easily done with the teams staff on the touichline.. Quins would have known damn well what was going on - least said soonest mended.
Deafening silence from the Quins supporting branch of our family btw.
I
Being as objective and detached as possible, I find it extraordinary that the RFU or whoever runs this competition and organisation hasn't immediately organised and announced an enquiry. I assume something is being done behind closed doors but imvho it brings the professional game into the region of disrespect and lack of professionalsm. Can you imagine the hoooooo haaaaa if this was Association Football? I am not writing this because I think it would/could have changed the outcome of this particular match btw.
Incredulity that no-one thought to prevent the Quins player from returning to the pitch before 'things checked out - easily done with the teams staff on the touichline.. Quins would have known damn well what was going on - least said soonest mended.
Deafening silence from the Quins supporting branch of our family btw.
I
As far as I know Harlequins have made no statement pleading their innocence which gives me an uneasy feeling that some at pitchside knew exactly what was happening but in the heat of what was an anxious moment chose not to say something. I expect they would have had a post mortem to discuss it and maybe they are embarrassed enough to sweep it under the carpet and say nothing for fear of being exposed as unsporting.
I agree FA - it would be incredibly unprofessional of any coaching set up not to know the exact second that a YC expires. That could be the difference between getting a player back on before or after a crucial scrum/lineout/defensive set. Quins must have thought it was Christmas when the player was told he could go back on.
Given that I always log the time someone, our players or the oppositions, get a yellow card and hence when they will be back.
If I am doing this it would be hard to imagine professional coaching teams are not doing the same.
What of course should have happened is the moment Bath's coaching team bought it to the attention of the Touch Judge they should have stopped the game at the next breakdown stopped the clock and the TMO should have reviewed the film just as he would do with any infringement.
The Quins player should have been sent off the pitch and his yellow card period reset.
Obviously it should not have happened but as it had done this would have been the most exppedient way of correcting the problem
If I am doing this it would be hard to imagine professional coaching teams are not doing the same.
What of course should have happened is the moment Bath's coaching team bought it to the attention of the Touch Judge they should have stopped the game at the next breakdown stopped the clock and the TMO should have reviewed the film just as he would do with any infringement.
The Quins player should have been sent off the pitch and his yellow card period reset.
Obviously it should not have happened but as it had done this would have been the most exppedient way of correcting the problem
How happy are ARs being talked to by coaches? Informally I can see it happens, but are they strictly allowed?
In terms of the implications on a game this decision by an official is somewhere in the middle. It could have had an impact, that impact could have changed the final score and result, but so could a missed forward pass, an (English) foot in touch or not quite being able to see the ball grounded when everyone really knows it probably has been.
At the end of the day and official has made a mistake. I don't recall it happening before, it will probably be a long time before I see it again, if ever. I quite review of the process is probably all that's needed. It's very annoying it happened to Bath however its one of several dozen "incorrect" decisions that the officials made that could have won us the game. On the flip side, I suspect Quins were subject to a similar set of decisions.
In terms of the implications on a game this decision by an official is somewhere in the middle. It could have had an impact, that impact could have changed the final score and result, but so could a missed forward pass, an (English) foot in touch or not quite being able to see the ball grounded when everyone really knows it probably has been.
At the end of the day and official has made a mistake. I don't recall it happening before, it will probably be a long time before I see it again, if ever. I quite review of the process is probably all that's needed. It's very annoying it happened to Bath however its one of several dozen "incorrect" decisions that the officials made that could have won us the game. On the flip side, I suspect Quins were subject to a similar set of decisions.
Quote:Dan Wiley
How happy are ARs being talked to by coaches? Informally I can see it happens, but are they strictly allowed?
Not sure what the rules actually are but on the TV you quite often see members of the coaching teams interacting with the officials. In relation to this incident, I'm sure a quick 'we think that a timing mistake has been made would you please quickly flag / check that' wouldn't have been received too badly - particularly since it was correct?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I don’t think it was the AR Bath informed.
Did JvG not say that the team manager told the 4th officail? More appropriate & less likely to be distracting.
PG
Did JvG not say that the team manager told the 4th officail? More appropriate & less likely to be distracting.
PG
I agree BathMatt, but I suspect WR et al would be hesitant to make that a formal part of the process and there by opening up another reason for a coach to talk to, indeed question, the ref.
Quote:Dan Wiley
I agree BathMatt, but I suspect WR et al would be hesitant to make that a formal part of the process and there by opening up another reason for a coach to talk to, indeed question, the ref.
Heaven forbid anyone talk to the officials! They should be free to make errors free from criticism, they are a protected species.
Ever thought about accountability?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:12:58:34 by shipwrecked.
Quote:If the coach wanted to talk to the ref during the match itself - he can select himself to play, and then appoint himself the captain.shipwrecked
Heaven forbid anyone talk to the officials! They should be free to make errors free from criticism they are a protected species.
Ever though about accountability?
Otherwise, he's free to talk to the 4th official, who can pass on messages or not as he deems fit.
RAEBURN SHIELD
If the fourth official had realised his mistake and let the ref know, what could be done. Is there any laws that can be followed or would they have to bodge a decision?
Quote:https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/3/?highlight=teamReccing Ball
If the fourth official had realised his mistake and let the ref know, what could be done. Is there any laws that can be followed or would they have to bodge a decision?
"Law 3.3 A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty."
"Law 3.7 If a player re-joins or a replacement joins the match without the referee’s permission and the referee believes the player did so to gain an advantage, the player is guilty of misconduct. Sanction: Penalty."
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:13:11:00 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:If the coach wanted to talk to the ref during the match itself - he can select himself to play, and then appoint himself the captain.shipwrecked
Heaven forbid anyone talk to the officials! They should be free to make errors free from criticism they are a protected species.
Ever though about accountability?
Otherwise, he's free to talk to the 4th official, who can pass on messages or not as he deems fit.
JvG is 44 and a rubbish player by his own admission, I'm not sure you you elect yourself retrospectively?
Quote:Which Tyler
Otherwise, he's free to talk to the 4th official, who can pass on messages or not as he deems fit.
So you highlight the problem here, there is no route to talk to the ref in the game that is an obligation. If the 4th official declines its no contact, full stop.
Protect the ref from abuse , of course, but they should be accountable other than post match when NOTHING can be done. Its not just this incident either.
Quote:Correct, and I don't see it as a problem in and of itself.shipwrecked
So you highlight the problem here, there is no route to talk to the ref in the game that is an obligation. If the 4th official declines its no contact, full stop.
The problem here appears to be that the 4th official screwed up with the substitution, and then (presumably) screwed up with informing the ref about his screw up.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Correct, and I don't see it as a problem in and of itself.shipwrecked
So you highlight the problem here, there is no route to talk to the ref in the game that is an obligation. If the 4th official declines its no contact, full stop.
The problem here appears to be that the 4th official screwed up with the substitution, and then (presumably) screwed up with informing the ref about his screw up.
I disagree. The point that is being ignored here is that the scrutiny of the the game through TV, video, streaming is so much enhanced nowadays that before perhaps some players, officials and the odd spectator where in a position to see what happens close up.
Today we can replay, zoom in, screenshot, enlarge and analyse so everyone viewing the game can comment be they spectator, player, professional, official or administrator.
The game HAS to keep up. Not only this game but ALL sport, be it football with VAR, Tennis with Hawkeye line calls, cricket with snickometer etc.
If thousands of people can see the error and those same thousands see that error remain uncorrected the sport is wide open to claims of incompetence, laziness, corruption whatever.
We can now place the ball accurately anywhere on the pitch with smart ball. These reviews will get more accurate and more frequent as time goes on.
Rugby has many ex players in the second half of their lives who want the game to stay the same. Fact is it’s not the same game any more, its faster, more physical and more scrutinised. It has to keep up to date.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Correct, and I don't see it as a problem in and of itself.shipwrecked
So you highlight the problem here, there is no route to talk to the ref in the game that is an obligation. If the 4th official declines its no contact, full stop.
The problem here appears to be that the 4th official screwed up with the substitution, and then (presumably) screwed up with informing the ref about his screw up.
There does appear to be a problem, nothing has been done to prevent the issue happening again and it appears that nobody has actually been held accountable.
I would say "team" means captain.
Yes, 100%, coaches should not be able to criticise the ref, particularly during play. A player may well get sent off if he seriously pushes that boundary, coaches are in exactly the same position.
Refs are accountable and frequently assessed by people qualified to do so. They are the right people to constructively criticise refs. Coaches are more or less the last people who should be able to.
As Which says, some official screwed up here. As happens at least a dozen times in every game.
Quote:Shipwrecked
They should be free to make errors free from criticism, they are a protected species.
Yes, 100%, coaches should not be able to criticise the ref, particularly during play. A player may well get sent off if he seriously pushes that boundary, coaches are in exactly the same position.
Refs are accountable and frequently assessed by people qualified to do so. They are the right people to constructively criticise refs. Coaches are more or less the last people who should be able to.
As Which says, some official screwed up here. As happens at least a dozen times in every game.
Quote:OutsideBath
There does appear to be a problem, nothing has been done to prevent the issue happening again and it appears that nobody has actually been held accountable.
When was the last time this happened? How often does it occur? It seems a pretty rare incident to me and not worth going to great lengths over. As I say, if they look over the current process, they might find a minor improvement, but I doubt its something any of us would notice. Does anyone even know what the current process is at pro level? I would guess whoever is responsible has had a bit of a career setback. If so that seems a suitable level of accountability, but we're never going to really know about it.
Quote:I know you do - but you'll never take the human element out of it, however much you want to,shipwrecked
I disagree.
Introducing new human elements isn't going to solve the issue either.
Quote:And you know that because?OutsideBath
There does appear to be a problem, nothing has been done to prevent the issue happening again
Quote:Something that appears one way to the uninformed, doesn't mean that it IS that way. For last few decades there has been rigorous appraisal of officials' performance - which is known to anyone who cares to find out.OutsideBath
and it appears that nobody has actually been held accountable.
You'd never know it though from some of the fans determination that there's no such thing.
We know who the ref was, we know who the 4th official was.
If anyone still cares in a year's time, anyone who wants to will be able to see how their careers have progressed. IMO (you disagree) We don't need a public witch-hunt with full debriefing of the press from private and confidential communications.
Just for example, from <1 minute on google, and within a year of today:
[www.youtube.com]
Don't be a rockstar, rugby referees told by their coach
Rugby referees: 'We don't have definitive answers'
Rugby referees: 'They want perfection'
Rugby referees get psyched up before matches too
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:14:05:50 by Which Tyler.
Dan, Which
I am all for respect for referees. Having captained teams and refereed also, both on multiple occasions, I recognise and value the importance of that ethic.
However, I believe that respect needs to be a 2 way process. The PGMOT promises no more than "the usual" review.
This was, as you both rightly point out, a rare occurrence and hopefully will remain so. However, a quick study of the recording will show failings/weaknesses on several levels:
* the basic error itself
* confusion about the time error- PGMOT says "approximately 3 minutes, the TV yellow countdown showed 4.17 Mins, while the match clock showed Herbst on at 70 minutes (he actually left the field at 64.01), so with 4 minutes to go.
* the referee heard to say at 71.52 "No, you are not on yet", when Herbst had already been on the field a whole minute.
Perhaps not one simple error then?
I would like to have seen a commitment to a review of the incident in order to review the process for managing card penalties - and a public statement once completed. That would not require "private and confidential communications" to be revealed -only the findings of the review.
PG
I am all for respect for referees. Having captained teams and refereed also, both on multiple occasions, I recognise and value the importance of that ethic.
However, I believe that respect needs to be a 2 way process. The PGMOT promises no more than "the usual" review.
This was, as you both rightly point out, a rare occurrence and hopefully will remain so. However, a quick study of the recording will show failings/weaknesses on several levels:
* the basic error itself
* confusion about the time error- PGMOT says "approximately 3 minutes, the TV yellow countdown showed 4.17 Mins, while the match clock showed Herbst on at 70 minutes (he actually left the field at 64.01), so with 4 minutes to go.
* the referee heard to say at 71.52 "No, you are not on yet", when Herbst had already been on the field a whole minute.
Perhaps not one simple error then?
I would like to have seen a commitment to a review of the incident in order to review the process for managing card penalties - and a public statement once completed. That would not require "private and confidential communications" to be revealed -only the findings of the review.
PG
Rugby only survives if people pay to watch it in one form or another.
The paying punter is entitled to more than a very basic apology to the two clubs.
An explanation of what went on, why it happened and what is being done to ensure such a massive howler doesn't happen again is what every fan of the game deserves.
Sadly PGMOT keep hiding everything from public gaze.
It makes the game look stupid and does it no favours at all in attracting a wider fan base.
The paying punter is entitled to more than a very basic apology to the two clubs.
An explanation of what went on, why it happened and what is being done to ensure such a massive howler doesn't happen again is what every fan of the game deserves.
Sadly PGMOT keep hiding everything from public gaze.
It makes the game look stupid and does it no favours at all in attracting a wider fan base.
I think that's a bit over the top. Exactly how many potential fans will have been turned off by this? Why would they be? "I'm not watching a game where the officials make errors." It happens in all sports.
"the game looks stupid" to who? Would a sincere apology really make it look less so? We can spend a lot of energy making sure a problem that hardly ever happens hardly ever happens in future, or we could fix some of the real issues with the game.
I get we're annoyed by this, the rest of the world has moved on. It was no more than a 30 second conversation for most potential fans. For most existing fans it was probably not much more than "Bath are going to be upset by that, but what can you do?"
"the game looks stupid" to who? Would a sincere apology really make it look less so? We can spend a lot of energy making sure a problem that hardly ever happens hardly ever happens in future, or we could fix some of the real issues with the game.
I get we're annoyed by this, the rest of the world has moved on. It was no more than a 30 second conversation for most potential fans. For most existing fans it was probably not much more than "Bath are going to be upset by that, but what can you do?"
Interestingly criticising referees appears to be getting worse across all sports. It doesn't help at all that pundits are getting stuck in - MOTD for football (Lineker et all syaying the other day that the Refs are ruining their game). It is 100% trickling down to club and age grade level, even after the final whistle. I'm only a very minor cog, but for example I have taken the regrettable decision to give up refereeing, because it just maes me miserable for the rest of the weekend - the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Something needs to change in relation to the attitude towards refs at all levels, particularly those at club level who have no video playback, TMO, assistants it is as toxic as it has ever been. Yes they make mistakes, yes they are human, but they allow the games to go ahead.
As an interesting postscript I was speaking with a fairly recently ex Pro the other day and we were having this conversation. He said that when he looked back he was embarrassed / shamed at his previous attitude to refs when he was a player and it was one of his only regrets. Since retiring he has refeffed a game at his local club and he says that he would never do it again...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Something needs to change in relation to the attitude towards refs at all levels, particularly those at club level who have no video playback, TMO, assistants it is as toxic as it has ever been. Yes they make mistakes, yes they are human, but they allow the games to go ahead.
As an interesting postscript I was speaking with a fairly recently ex Pro the other day and we were having this conversation. He said that when he looked back he was embarrassed / shamed at his previous attitude to refs when he was a player and it was one of his only regrets. Since retiring he has refeffed a game at his local club and he says that he would never do it again...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:I live just outside of Gloucester, and play (walking) rugby for Tewkesbury. Last week I wore my my Bath shirt to play, and again on Friday after work to watch the Gloucester match. Normally, everyone loves to tease me about Bath, and love to rub my face in things when they go wrong for us.Dan Wiley
I think that's a bit over the top. Exactly how many potential fans will have been turned off by this? Why would they be? "I'm not watching a game where the officials make errors." It happens in all sports.
"the game looks stupid" to who? Would a sincere apology really make it look less so? We can spend a lot of energy making sure a problem that hardly ever happens hardly ever happens in future, or we could fix some of the real issues with the game.
I get we're annoyed by this, the rest of the world has moved on. It was no more than a 30 second conversation for most potential fans. For most existing fans it was probably not much more than "Bath are going to be upset by that, but what can you do?"
Nobody cared.
They teased me on the failed come-back, and that was about it. I think one person said that the sin-bin thing must have been annoying, it got a couple of nods, but I don't remember any other reference to it.
Quote:Always sad to hear anyone giving up the game, whether playing or reffing, and particularly sad when it's for this reason.BathMatt53
Interestingly criticising referees appears to be getting worse across all sports. It doesn't help at all that pundits are getting stuck in - MOTD for football (Lineker et all syaying the other day that the Refs are ruining their game). It is 100% trickling down to club and age grade level, even after the final whistle. I'm only a very minor cog, but for example I have taken the regrettable decision to give up refereeing, because it just maes me miserable for the rest of the weekend - the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Something needs to change in relation to the attitude towards refs at all levels, particularly those at club level who have no video playback, TMO, assistants it is as toxic as it has ever been. Yes they make mistakes, yes they are human, but they allow the games to go ahead.
As an interesting postscript I was speaking with a fairly recently ex Pro the other day and we were having this conversation. He said that when he looked back he was embarrassed / shamed at his previous attitude to refs when he was a player and it was one of his only regrets. Since retiring he has refeffed a game at his local club and he says that he would never do it again...
It's also why I think that we on here need to be a lot more careful about what we say - normalising things, and occasionally going way OTT in not accepting that humans are human, and that mistakes happen.
An we wonder why WR think that ref.s need protecting.
RAEBURN SHIELD
I agree with PG, there has to be accountability for referees and there are too many questions unanswered.
I really don't get the "protect the referees" point. They are the adjudicators of the game they make judgements all the time that players respect and obey. However, if they make an error themselves they are immune from comment, correction or criticism.
Frankly that makes a mockery of the Laws of the game.
Matt, of course refs needs protecting from abuse, that goes without question. However, to insist on blind obedience irrespective of the accuracy of the decision is just counterproductive and inviting ridicule. This wasn't abuse, nobody at our club said the slightest thing out of place, expecting an investigation. The result being we have been ignored and seen as a pushover.
Everyone is accountable, why are refs exempt?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I really don't get the "protect the referees" point. They are the adjudicators of the game they make judgements all the time that players respect and obey. However, if they make an error themselves they are immune from comment, correction or criticism.
Frankly that makes a mockery of the Laws of the game.
Matt, of course refs needs protecting from abuse, that goes without question. However, to insist on blind obedience irrespective of the accuracy of the decision is just counterproductive and inviting ridicule. This wasn't abuse, nobody at our club said the slightest thing out of place, expecting an investigation. The result being we have been ignored and seen as a pushover.
Everyone is accountable, why are refs exempt?
I think you are missing the point here SW.
'However, if they make an error themselves they are immune from comment, correction or criticism.'
They came out and said that they had screwed up and they were sorry. The week before they also came out and said they had screwed up and that they were sorry. I am willing to make a bet of £50 to Dorothy House that it will not occur again this season.
What more do people want - public flogging?
At matches that I go to it always funny that 90% of the comments are people on the touchline - or in the stands - who simply don't know the Laws. It's a long old process to be even a local club Society ref let alone a Prem one. I promise anyone on this board that they know the Laws better than you do. If it's not law interpretation it's usually a matter of judgement (was a pass flat, backwards or forwards, was a ruck formed when the jackal went in) in which case there isn't a right answer and someone taking a different view to you doesn't mean that they are 'wrong'. Besides which, I can assure you that the Refs try and learn from their mistakes whether it is in public or not.
In any event I don't think that anything good can come from beating up refs (metaphorically or physically) on a sports forum just because your team lost. Abuse doesn't have to be fully confortational - I watched a player refuse to shake the refs hand after the match at the weekend as he perceived that the other side were offside at a play (he decided to make a comment instead). It's disappointing.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
'However, if they make an error themselves they are immune from comment, correction or criticism.'
They came out and said that they had screwed up and they were sorry. The week before they also came out and said they had screwed up and that they were sorry. I am willing to make a bet of £50 to Dorothy House that it will not occur again this season.
What more do people want - public flogging?
At matches that I go to it always funny that 90% of the comments are people on the touchline - or in the stands - who simply don't know the Laws. It's a long old process to be even a local club Society ref let alone a Prem one. I promise anyone on this board that they know the Laws better than you do. If it's not law interpretation it's usually a matter of judgement (was a pass flat, backwards or forwards, was a ruck formed when the jackal went in) in which case there isn't a right answer and someone taking a different view to you doesn't mean that they are 'wrong'. Besides which, I can assure you that the Refs try and learn from their mistakes whether it is in public or not.
In any event I don't think that anything good can come from beating up refs (metaphorically or physically) on a sports forum just because your team lost. Abuse doesn't have to be fully confortational - I watched a player refuse to shake the refs hand after the match at the weekend as he perceived that the other side were offside at a play (he decided to make a comment instead). It's disappointing.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
On a somewhat connected note there's quite a good piece in the DT following a citing officer for a game and talking about how the process works.
It would have been interesting if they'd made it part of a series or it had been more in depth as there are lots of interesting aspects to the process.
I'd like to know for instance how frequently teams refer incidents and what % of those are taken forward. Also what the most fequent incidents that are missed initially are.
It would have been interesting if they'd made it part of a series or it had been more in depth as there are lots of interesting aspects to the process.
I'd like to know for instance how frequently teams refer incidents and what % of those are taken forward. Also what the most fequent incidents that are missed initially are.
[quote=Shipwrecked]I really don't get the "protect the referees" point. They are the adjudicators of the game they make judgements all the time that players respect and obey. However, if they make an error themselves they are immune from comment, correction or criticism./quote]
Try reffing just one game of rugby. If you take even the players opinion into account you will get it all day long, very loud, from both sides until your job is impossible. As has been pointed out so many times, they aren't immune from comment, correction or criticism, they are assessed regularly by qualified people and that advice is presented in a rigorous, logical manner without the pressure of a game going on. They are rightly protected from people who often don't know what they are talking about shouting their mouths off.
Try reffing just one game of rugby. If you take even the players opinion into account you will get it all day long, very loud, from both sides until your job is impossible. As has been pointed out so many times, they aren't immune from comment, correction or criticism, they are assessed regularly by qualified people and that advice is presented in a rigorous, logical manner without the pressure of a game going on. They are rightly protected from people who often don't know what they are talking about shouting their mouths off.
You are referring to "grass roots rugby" not rugby with Arsenal 4th official, TMO and digital playback.
I'm referring to Premiership Rugby refereeing not the same. I've already agreed that sort of behaviour is abuse. Two different things.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I'm referring to Premiership Rugby refereeing not the same. I've already agreed that sort of behaviour is abuse. Two different things.
Referees will always attract criticism and I don't think it's worthwhile or possible to prevent people engaging in criticism. Especially in Rugby where the referee and their interpretation can actually alter the flow and style of a game although most of the criticism is directed at discrete events.
I do think that modern technology has been a curse and things like the TMO and multiple, instant replays have reduced the impression that the ref's decision is 'final'. Not just at the professional level but I used to get these kind of appeals at the amateur level (maybe I should have strapped my mobile phone to my chest).
The thing for me is that Rugby identified that mistakes were being made and added technological layers to reduce the impact of those mistakes. But those mistakes still happen (it's a human in the middle after all) and they highlighted how fallible referees are and that their decisions can and should be analysed and challenged.
In an age of TV, it's inevitable that you'll end up with things like TMO. But it does also mean that refs will come in for more criticism.
Having said that, this was an administrative error and it is worth noting the penalties for clubs who make administrative errors can be quite severe so it seems reasonable to expect a similar standard from the professional bodies.
I do think that modern technology has been a curse and things like the TMO and multiple, instant replays have reduced the impression that the ref's decision is 'final'. Not just at the professional level but I used to get these kind of appeals at the amateur level (maybe I should have strapped my mobile phone to my chest).
The thing for me is that Rugby identified that mistakes were being made and added technological layers to reduce the impact of those mistakes. But those mistakes still happen (it's a human in the middle after all) and they highlighted how fallible referees are and that their decisions can and should be analysed and challenged.
In an age of TV, it's inevitable that you'll end up with things like TMO. But it does also mean that refs will come in for more criticism.
Having said that, this was an administrative error and it is worth noting the penalties for clubs who make administrative errors can be quite severe so it seems reasonable to expect a similar standard from the professional bodies.
There was also clearly a technology element to the specific incident being discussed.
A player is dismissed the field for 10 minutes but the clock counting down his card has him still due to serve over 4 minutes when he returns to the field. A quick calculation from the point when he left the field shows that time misaligned with the match clock.
He (or somebody) is then told by the ref over a minute later "No, you are not on yet." However, he remains and is allowed to play.
So the PGMOT statement has addressed the human error, admitted it and stated that lessons will be learned. However, it has made no mention of the technology contribution to the error, which would appear to have contributed and should be simple to correct in future.
I see nothing "abusive" in seeking that improvement.
PG
A player is dismissed the field for 10 minutes but the clock counting down his card has him still due to serve over 4 minutes when he returns to the field. A quick calculation from the point when he left the field shows that time misaligned with the match clock.
He (or somebody) is then told by the ref over a minute later "No, you are not on yet." However, he remains and is allowed to play.
So the PGMOT statement has addressed the human error, admitted it and stated that lessons will be learned. However, it has made no mention of the technology contribution to the error, which would appear to have contributed and should be simple to correct in future.
I see nothing "abusive" in seeking that improvement.
PG
Another improvement would be for the yellow card time to start from the moment of the restart
A YC for a penalty try for example is often closer to 9 minutes by the time the ball is back in play
A YC for a penalty try for example is often closer to 9 minutes by the time the ball is back in play
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