Bath
FESTIVAL RUGBY? EDINBURGH v BATH
Bayliss: win battle?
By PG Tips
April 12 2022
There could be a festival atmosphere when Edinburgh host Bath in the European Challenge Cup on Saturday evening. Balmy spring weather is forecast and the team from a city renowned for putting on a show will be in buoyant mood after racking up over 120 points in their last two cup outings. 7th in the United Rugby Championship, the Challenge Cup is their best hope of honours. Last week Edinburgh beat a tattoo against hapless Pau, notching 8 tries. They will be confident of another high score and hoping to force their visitors to sound retreat.
The match venue is the DAM Health Stadium, with a capacity of only 7,800, so more Fringe than Festival proper, but for Bath too this offers the only (slim) hope of silverware for this season. Neal Hatley will hope his squad, encouraged by recent improvements and reinforced by returns from injury, can overcome the claustrophobic conditions to spring a surprise on their hosts and build a respectable finish to their season.
It will be no easy task. Edinburgh are stocked with current and recent Scotland internationals and squad members. Up front Bath can expect to encounter McInally, Schoeman, Nel, Gilchrist in the tight five and a choice of backrowers in Ritchie, Haining, Watson and Bradbury. Pyrgos and Kinghorn are the likely choices to provide direction from halfback to unleash the dangerous running threats of Hutchison, Bennett and Graham. As well as a decent cup run, Edinburgh have picked up 7 try bonus points in 15 league matches. Quick ball and quick transfer is their style so Bath’s defence will once again be tested by all-out, high tempo attack.
As always, Bath’s selection will be part influenced by injury. There is better news on that front with the return to training of Miles Reid and Ruaridh McConnochie, although Taulupe Faletau may miss out with a knee injury niggle. The recent return of Morozov, Dunn and Ewels gives the pack a more stable look than usual this campaign, hopefully able to compete for a full 80 with an experienced bench.
The winner of this tie will play either Biarritz or Wasps in the Quarter Finals, neither easy but equally neither invincible. Home advantage will go to the higher placed side in tournament rankings. That puts a premium on a high scoring game, to add to the festival fun. With Saracens, Northampton, Gloucester and Toulon still in the draw, Bath know that life will only get tougher if they do progress, but the signs of improvement have been growing steadily since the New Year while recent signings and renewals indicate confidence in the new coaching regime.
Bath are 3 games away from a European Final. In Muir, Cokanasiga and de Glanville they have the strike force to win if the pack can gain parity of possession and quick ball. Much will depend on the work of the loose forwards- probably Bayliss, Underhill and Coetzee, to win the breakdown battle and provide the go-forward needed.
In this underwhelming season, any win will cheer, but would it not be great to do so with the artistry of the Festival and the precision and pomp of the Tattoo? We can live in hope!
Possible Teams:
Bath: Morozov, Dunn, Stuart, Spencer, Ewels (Capt.), Bayliss, Underhill, Coetzee. B Spencer, Bailey. Muir, Clark, Joseph, Cokanasiga, De Glanville.
Replacements: Du Toit, Boyce, Rae, Richards, Reid. Simpson, Cipriani. Rokodoguni.
Edinburgh: Schoeman, McInally, Nel, Hodgson, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury. Pyrgos, Kinghorn. Moyano, Hutchison, Bennett, Graham. Immelman.
Replacements: Venter, McBurney, de Bruin, Sykes, Haining. Shiel, van der Walt, Savala.
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 12/04/2022 09:54
12/04/2022 09:54
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:19:16:54:20 by P G Tips.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:19:16:54:20 by P G Tips.
Nice preview as always PG, fingers crossed a bit of rest and the challenge of a fresh competition will see a decent performance from Bath.
Nice to have you back PG, opposition from a different league should be interesting, sort of scary that we are 3 games from a final.
Weirdly our stronger teams have failed to deliver in the past so let's hope its different this time.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Weirdly our stronger teams have failed to deliver in the past so let's hope its different this time.
Quote:shipwrecked
Nice to have you back PG
You did a fine job as deputy SW.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Nice piece PG Tips, thanks
Would love to do Edinburgh for this one but the city over Easter weekend would be a bit prohibitively in expensive I think.
Would love to do Edinburgh for this one but the city over Easter weekend would be a bit prohibitively in expensive I think.
I am actually in Edinburgh for the week... And already booked up this Saturday.. Dammit.
In case anyone hasn't seen it, it looks like EPCR has set up a similar streaming service to PRTV, so those matches that aren't shown on TV are available to stream in the same way:
[epcrugby.tv]
[epcrugby.tv]
French Officials for the tie - Really difficult fixture for us Edinburgh very strong and have a game which our defence to date this season has struggled to contain and fair weather forecast is looking for fair weather so would expect a fast game.
My real concern is who we have to combat Hamish Watson on the floor, shame we cannot draft Cloete in early. Not sure if Jamie Ritchie is fit? if he is that backrow and replacement back row is something special presume if all fit it would be Watson, Mata, Ritchie - with Bradbury, Haining & Kunavula waiting in reserve - Yikes.
Boys will have their work cut out - but we are improving and with players returning forever hopeful and a favourable draw if we can get through this one (if there is such a thing at this stage of the tournament). Come on Boys.
My real concern is who we have to combat Hamish Watson on the floor, shame we cannot draft Cloete in early. Not sure if Jamie Ritchie is fit? if he is that backrow and replacement back row is something special presume if all fit it would be Watson, Mata, Ritchie - with Bradbury, Haining & Kunavula waiting in reserve - Yikes.
Boys will have their work cut out - but we are improving and with players returning forever hopeful and a favourable draw if we can get through this one (if there is such a thing at this stage of the tournament). Come on Boys.
Bath are 150/1 to win the Challenge Cup according to the Oddschecker site this morning, Edinburgh are 14/1. Sarries are favourites at 4/6. I'm tempted by those odds for the price of a pint of Guinness...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3k
I'm tempted by those odds for the price of a pint of Guinness...
You're not alone. Apparently a bet on Bath is one of the most popular being taken.
Edinburgh are 14/1. Implicitly that means they think we're >10/1 to beat Edinburgh? Which seems... A bit long
Would have made a lovely Easter trip with a bit more notice. Anyone going ?
Team's Up. Ben Spencer's 50th:
Ben Spencer will make his 50th Bath Rugby appearance in Saturday’s Challenge Cup Round of 16 match against Edinburgh Rugby at the DAM Health Stadium.
The England scrum-half has made a huge impact since arriving at the Rec from Saracens, with his game management and leadership among his key attributes.
Vice-captain for the match, Spencer leads a backline with one change from the team that started the Gallagher Premiership match with Exeter Chiefs a fortnight ago.
Semesa Rokoduguni, who was a late withdrawal from the starting XV at Sandy Park, is back on the wing with in-form duo Joe Cokanasiga and Tom de Glanville completing the back three. The pair both have five tries to their name this campaign.
The centre partnership of Max Clark and Jonathan Joseph continues while Orlando Bailey retains the fly-half spot.
Number 8 Taulupe Faletau returns to the pack in an all-international back row containing Scotland’s Josh Bayliss and England’s Sam Underhill.
The tight five is unchanged meaning a second consecutive start for Tom Dunn on his comeback from injury. Valeriy Morozov and Will Stuart will add power from loosehead and tighthead prop respectively, and Will Spencer partners captain Charlie Ewels in the second row.
Bath Rugby side to play Edinburgh Rugby
15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Joe Cokanasiga, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Will Spencer, 5 Charlie Ewels ©, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Taulupe Faletau
Replacements
16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Ewan Richards, 21 Joe Simpson, 22 Danny Cipriani, 23 Will Butt
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Ben Spencer will make his 50th Bath Rugby appearance in Saturday’s Challenge Cup Round of 16 match against Edinburgh Rugby at the DAM Health Stadium.
The England scrum-half has made a huge impact since arriving at the Rec from Saracens, with his game management and leadership among his key attributes.
Vice-captain for the match, Spencer leads a backline with one change from the team that started the Gallagher Premiership match with Exeter Chiefs a fortnight ago.
Semesa Rokoduguni, who was a late withdrawal from the starting XV at Sandy Park, is back on the wing with in-form duo Joe Cokanasiga and Tom de Glanville completing the back three. The pair both have five tries to their name this campaign.
The centre partnership of Max Clark and Jonathan Joseph continues while Orlando Bailey retains the fly-half spot.
Number 8 Taulupe Faletau returns to the pack in an all-international back row containing Scotland’s Josh Bayliss and England’s Sam Underhill.
The tight five is unchanged meaning a second consecutive start for Tom Dunn on his comeback from injury. Valeriy Morozov and Will Stuart will add power from loosehead and tighthead prop respectively, and Will Spencer partners captain Charlie Ewels in the second row.
Bath Rugby side to play Edinburgh Rugby
15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Joe Cokanasiga, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Will Spencer, 5 Charlie Ewels ©, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Taulupe Faletau
Replacements
16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Ewan Richards, 21 Joe Simpson, 22 Danny Cipriani, 23 Will Butt
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Anyone know where Ojomoh is? Has a listed of injured / unavailable players been published?
He looked sharp in the Prem Cup v Worcester and only played 50 or so minutes then. I was hoping we'd see him back in the 1st XV. Max C playing well but Max O is more creative and a big part of our future rather than Dragons's.
He looked sharp in the Prem Cup v Worcester and only played 50 or so minutes then. I was hoping we'd see him back in the 1st XV. Max C playing well but Max O is more creative and a big part of our future rather than Dragons's.
No Jaco Coetzee again or Lewis Boyce in the 23 - another injury?? Concerning given the perceived importance being placed on both with resources next season.
Edinburgh carrying a fair few injuries especially up front and in the backrow although Watson will be a real threat but that team not as scary as it could have been good news for us come on Bath.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:15:12:14:34 by Ali1969.
Edinburgh carrying a fair few injuries especially up front and in the backrow although Watson will be a real threat but that team not as scary as it could have been good news for us come on Bath.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:15:12:14:34 by Ali1969.
Quote:Rokobilly
Anyone know where Ojomoh is? Has a listed of injured / unavailable players been published?.
Some weeks they publish one , some weeks they don't....no seeming logic behind it. Infuriates me.
Good squad I think. Coetzee could be a selection decision maybe as bayliss covers 8. Williams and richards decent bench options.
And Edinburgh:
THE OPPOSITION
15 Henry Immelman, 14 Ramiro Moyano, 13 Mark Bennett, 12 James Lang, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Blair Kinghorn, 9 Ben Vellacott; 1 Pierre Schoeman, 2 Stuart McInally, 3 Lee-Roy Atalifo, 4 Marshall Sykes, 5 Grant Gilchrist ©, 6 Ben Muncaster, 7 Hamish Watson, 8 Magnus Bradbury
REPLACEMENTS
16 Adam McBurney, 17 Harrison Courtney, 18 Angus Williams, 19 Glen Young, 20 Connor Boyle, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Jaco van der Walt, 23 Cammy Hutchison
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
THE OPPOSITION
15 Henry Immelman, 14 Ramiro Moyano, 13 Mark Bennett, 12 James Lang, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Blair Kinghorn, 9 Ben Vellacott; 1 Pierre Schoeman, 2 Stuart McInally, 3 Lee-Roy Atalifo, 4 Marshall Sykes, 5 Grant Gilchrist ©, 6 Ben Muncaster, 7 Hamish Watson, 8 Magnus Bradbury
REPLACEMENTS
16 Adam McBurney, 17 Harrison Courtney, 18 Angus Williams, 19 Glen Young, 20 Connor Boyle, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Jaco van der Walt, 23 Cammy Hutchison
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:SJS
In case anyone hasn't seen it, it looks like EPCR has set up a similar streaming service to PRTV, so those matches that aren't shown on TV are available to stream in the same way:
[epcrugby.tv]
Does anyone know if this can be cast onto big tv like prtv can? I know some streaming services block this.
The EPCR TV website FAQs are very vague. I’m assuming that you log in via your TV’s browser? There’s no app that I can see. You might be able to cast from your device’s browser to the telly?
I was feeling quite positive when I saw the strength of the team we were putting out, until I saw Edinburgh's!
Quote:Rawce
The EPCR TV website FAQs are very vague. I’m assuming that you log in via your TV’s browser? There’s no app that I can see. You might be able to cast from your device’s browser to the telly?
Having just watched our game v Biarritz I noticed when I started watching the live stream that in the bottom right there was an option to cast. I did not do it, but I imagine a HDMI cable to your tv should do the job.
I’m on iPad but I don’t have Apple TV which makes casting a challenge and no HDMI option. If I have to tiny screen it, so be it. Basically, I need a fancy new TV.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab
Sky, BT. PRTV, EPCR, Amazon, YouTube, Terrestrial TV several of those pay per view. Needs to be under one hat now. getting silly!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:hasta
Edinburgh are 14/1. Implicitly that means they think we're >10/1 to beat Edinburgh? Which seems... A bit long
Unfortunately odds don't work like that Hasta! Edinburgh 1/3, Bath 5/2 (Edinburgh predicted to win by >8.5 points). Besides which Edinburgh to win the thing at 14/1 is very measly IMO with Sarries etc to beat.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I suspect Bath very unlikely to win, especially as you say with Sarries. But a fiver at 150/1 is tempting given the potential for a trading bet.
Btw if we do best Edinburgh, route to the final is:
Wasps QF
Lyon/Glasgow SF
(Both away)
Btw if we do best Edinburgh, route to the final is:
Wasps QF
Lyon/Glasgow SF
(Both away)
8-7 Edin pen
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:20:29:39 by CoochieCoo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:20:29:39 by CoochieCoo.
Try Bath from a maul Ben Spencer scores
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:20:46:26 by CoochieCoo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:20:46:26 by CoochieCoo.
Spencer misses a kickable pen
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:21:10:06 by CoochieCoo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:21:10:06 by CoochieCoo.
I do hope that JvG can get hold of this team & do something with it. I’m not convinced that the personnel changes will achieve that. We will still have an under powered scrum & be prone to collapses like this You look at these teams on paper & we shouldn’t always end up being thumped.
We always fall away in the second half and hardly increase our score in the second half
Are the Embra crowd usually this disrespectful with their booing or just when they’re tanked up on a Saturday evening?
Last three second halves Bath have score 3 points. That's 3 points in 120 minutes.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Well in with a chance until 65 minutes then fell apart.
Seems too similar to the last match - a problem with strength in depth or mental frailty?
Either way, JVG has a job on!
PG
Seems too similar to the last match - a problem with strength in depth or mental frailty?
Either way, JVG has a job on!
PG
Fitness has to be a part of our problem, and that is at least something that can be fixed. We can look good in patches, and that is the biggest frustration. It was as strong a team as we have had this season though and we got thumped again.thete is so much that is wrong that I think it will take a very long time to put right
Quote:Fitness, the right plan for the game in front of you, galvanising leader on the pitch, etc.P G Tips
Well in with a chance until 65 minutes then fell apart.
Seems too similar to the last match - a problem with strength in depth or mental frailty?
Either way, JVG has a job on!
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Well in with a chance until 65 minutes then fell apart.
Seems too similar to the last match - a problem with strength in depth or mental frailty?
Either way, JVG has a job on!
PG
Agreed PGT 65 mins is when we bring the bench on. As Hasta says infers our strength in depth is very weak!
Quote:shipwrecked
Last three second halves Bath have score 3 points. That's 3 points in 120 minutes.
No disguising that's an appalling stat.
Do we have to pretend that all pro teams are all as fit as each other so it can't possibly be anything to do with that?
I know it's more complex than that but also think it must be part of the problem. I have consistently said that culturally I don't think the coaches demand enough from each other or the players , and the players don't demand enough of each other.
Is it really down to strength in depth or is it more likely poor fitness & inadequate preparation which is the responsibility of the head coach. The problem is that when this is so deeply entrenched it will be mighty difficult to turn around & we will still have Hatley in situ, all be it in a slightly different role.
I am now getting quite worried about next season & avoiding relegation, If it returns.
I am now getting quite worried about next season & avoiding relegation, If it returns.
Utterly dismal performance, particularly in H2.
Bad day at the office for Orlando amongst others. Falatau was very ordinary.
Underhill was trying so hard, and thought that VM and TD had a really good game, contesting all over the pitch. A couple of sparks from TDG, otherwise lots of meh!
The line cut by Blair Kinghorn for his H1 try was incredible.
Season end can’t come soon enough.
Bad day at the office for Orlando amongst others. Falatau was very ordinary.
Underhill was trying so hard, and thought that VM and TD had a really good game, contesting all over the pitch. A couple of sparks from TDG, otherwise lots of meh!
The line cut by Blair Kinghorn for his H1 try was incredible.
Season end can’t come soon enough.
Very honest comments from Charlie Ewels. It must be immensely frustrating for those players. I don’t buy into this strength in depth comment. It might apply to the front row but was that where we lost it? All the other replacements were adequate. We put out a very strong team on paper but they are just not delivering.
Quote:Rawce
Are the Embra crowd usually this disrespectful with their booing or just when they’re tanked up on a Saturday evening?
It's not booing - they are paying homage to their favourite Pierre Schoeman by saying 'Schooooooo'
It does sound like booing but it's not - the Edinburgh crowd is very respectful towards the visitors.
Second half we apparently tried to fix the two Edinburgh tries. We were scared to blitz in case they did it a third time so we dialled back on the defence speed and so just let them run over us. As soon as we lose the first phase our backs aren't drilled to reset the defence.
Blair Kinghorn was good but not that good. But more importantly we also completely lost it up front!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:23:23:26 by shipwrecked.
Blair Kinghorn was good but not that good. But more importantly we also completely lost it up front!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:16:23:23:26 by shipwrecked.
Quote:Bath Hammer
Very honest comments from Charlie Ewels. It must be immensely frustrating for those players. I don’t buy into this strength in depth comment. It might apply to the front row but was that where we lost it? All the other replacements were adequate. We put out a very strong team on paper but they are just not delivering.
BH this resonates with me, particularly this week. Our team sheet was very close to our strongest, yet by the 65th minute we looked so far off it was difficult to watch.
Quote:shipwrecked
Second half we apparently tried to fix the two Edinburgh tries. We were scared to blitz in case they did it a third time so we dialled back on the defence speed and so just let them run over us. As soon as we lose the first phase our backs aren't drilled to reset the defence.
!
Thank you for your analysis SW but it sounds baffling to me! Is rugby really that complicated???
Also, if it’s down to our front row again we seriously need to get some proper props in for next season don’t we?
Quote:Ah, that makes more sense, especially with the hits he was putting in. Thanks for clarifying.tmc1963Quote:Rawce
Are the Embra crowd usually this disrespectful with their booing or just when they’re tanked up on a Saturday evening?
It's not booing - they are paying homage to their favourite Pierre Schoeman by saying 'Schooooooo'
It does sound like booing but it's not - the Edinburgh crowd is very respectful towards the visitors.
I'm kinda tired of look good for 30 mind, end up being hit for 50 points.
I appreciate the club's more attacking style but it needs to be allied to a defensive plan more than just go out there and defend, as much because once the onslaught starts we don't even get the chance to attack.
Things definitely look better for next season but it is concerning none of the rugby management team could turn this around across an entire season.
I appreciate the club's more attacking style but it needs to be allied to a defensive plan more than just go out there and defend, as much because once the onslaught starts we don't even get the chance to attack.
Things definitely look better for next season but it is concerning none of the rugby management team could turn this around across an entire season.
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:shipwrecked
Second half we apparently tried to fix the two Edinburgh tries. We were scared to blitz in case they did it a third time so we dialled back on the defence speed and so just let them run over us. As soon as we lose the first phase our backs aren't drilled to reset the defence.
!
Thank you for your analysis SW but it sounds baffling to me! Is rugby really that complicated???
Also, if it’s down to our front row again we seriously need to get some proper props in for next season don’t we?
I think its all about coaching though BH. During the Tigers game AH pointed out how quickly Tigers backs were able to reform.
It has to be about everyone knowing what to do, where to position and how to react. Thats what I'm expecting JvG to do.
Tigers where bottom of the Premiership one season then 12 months later totally transformed. Its getting everyone on the same page and being well drilled, (A bit like Moyes has done at WH!) Many of the players were the same.
We had a working maul first half that evaporated in the second that just has to be repeating organisation doesn't it?
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:Bath HammerQuote:shipwrecked
Second half we apparently tried to fix the two Edinburgh tries. We were scared to blitz in case they did it a third time so we dialled back on the defence speed and so just let them run over us. As soon as we lose the first phase our backs aren't drilled to reset the defence.
!
Thank you for your analysis SW but it sounds baffling to me! Is rugby really that complicated???
Also, if it’s down to our front row again we seriously need to get some proper props in for next season don’t we?
I think its all about coaching though BH. During the Tigers game AH pointed out how quickly Tigers backs were able to reform.
It has to be about everyone knowing what to do, where to position and how to react. Thats what I'm expecting JvG to do.
Tigers where bottom of the Premiership one season then 12 months later totally transformed. Its getting everyone on the same page and being well drilled...
This begs the question "why don't our current coaching team do this?". If it is because they are not able to do so, this is a big concern as many of them will still be here next season.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:shipwreckedQuote:Bath HammerQuote:shipwrecked
Second half we apparently tried to fix the two Edinburgh tries. We were scared to blitz in case they did it a third time so we dialled back on the defence speed and so just let them run over us. As soon as we lose the first phase our backs aren't drilled to reset the defence.
!
Thank you for your analysis SW but it sounds baffling to me! Is rugby really that complicated???
Also, if it’s down to our front row again we seriously need to get some proper props in for next season don’t we?
I think its all about coaching though BH. During the Tigers game AH pointed out how quickly Tigers backs were able to reform.
It has to be about everyone knowing what to do, where to position and how to react. Thats what I'm expecting JvG to do.
Tigers where bottom of the Premiership one season then 12 months later totally transformed. Its getting everyone on the same page and being well drilled...
This begs the question "why don't our current coaching team do this?". If it is because they are not able to do so, this is a big concern as many of them will still be here next season.
That’s what worries me a great deal!
Interesting to see Biggar got a red card in the other game so won't be available for next Saturday against us at the Rec. The only goal now is not to finish bottom. It's a shame we can't get Hughes what a difference he made!
It clearly hasn’t worked for Bristol, but their bench selection is at least trying to resolve the issue of not finishing well. Montpellier with Mercer on the bench perhaps also (although they have a big Top14 game next week that may have been more of the motivation)….so should we have had some starters on the bench yesterday?
Faletau very quiet. Max Clark unusually weak defensive game. As stated above, Morozov impressed and I thought we looked on top in the scrum despite not getting the decisions.
Was Horse injured or not selected? I hope we see more of Max O in the last few games of the season.
Faletau very quiet. Max Clark unusually weak defensive game. As stated above, Morozov impressed and I thought we looked on top in the scrum despite not getting the decisions.
Was Horse injured or not selected? I hope we see more of Max O in the last few games of the season.
Quote:CoochieCoo
It was as honest a response as he could make. Unfortunately he doesn’t know the answer, neither does the rest of the team & evidently Hatley doesn’t either.
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:joethefanaticQuote:shipwreckedQuote:Bath HammerQuote:shipwrecked
Second half we apparently tried to fix the two Edinburgh tries. We were scared to blitz in case they did it a third time so we dialled back on the defence speed and so just let them run over us. As soon as we lose the first phase our backs aren't drilled to reset the defence.
!
Thank you for your analysis SW but it sounds baffling to me! Is rugby really that complicated???
Also, if it’s down to our front row again we seriously need to get some proper props in for next season don’t we?
I think its all about coaching though BH. During the Tigers game AH pointed out how quickly Tigers backs were able to reform.
It has to be about everyone knowing what to do, where to position and how to react. Thats what I'm expecting JvG to do.
Tigers where bottom of the Premiership one season then 12 months later totally transformed. Its getting everyone on the same page and being well drilled...
This begs the question "why don't our current coaching team do this?". If it is because they are not able to do so, this is a big concern as many of them will still be here next season.
That’s what worries me a great deal!
I have to say I do have a similar concern.
There has been much of late about changing the message from coaches to keep it relevant. Simply doing and saying the same thing simply doesn't maintain attention after a while particularly if results don't come.
Stuart Lancaster talks of the length of stay at Leinster and how Ferggie changed things to keep it relevant.
Pat Lam has a similar problem at Bristol but his admin goof might actually help Bristol with forced changes and the 'new coach bounce' in football is well established.
I think that its not the content or quality of coaching that matters its the delivery. Sometimes repeating the same mantra just becomes background noise even if its the right message.
I'm a strong believer if a fresh voice and thats why I think JvG will have a fresh strong message with him and JP Ferreira as defence coach.
However, I do worry that Bath have missed the opportunity for change by retaining coaches. Looking at the most recent revitalising success at Leicester Borthwick has had a clearout and the appointment of Kevin Sinfield has been inspired.
My question is have we only done half a job or perhaps the retained coaches already on borrowed time and JvG is simply paying lip service to SH before a similar two stage refresh.
I share the concerns that the architects of our downfall in TM/SH are still there, just hoping they can entirely be pushed out of the way by Ed and JvG. Small pack is still going to hinder us next season, but maybe we can scrape into too 8.
As for yesterday, not too bothered as I never felt we deserved to be in the competition anyway.
As for yesterday, not too bothered as I never felt we deserved to be in the competition anyway.
If you watched the Munster v Exeter game yesterday, then there is a lot of optimism for next season.
JvG has pulled together a brutish squad which is very very fit and highly aggressive in defence.
Plus our playmakers are significantly more skilful than Munsters. Its going to be ok
Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country
JvG has pulled together a brutish squad which is very very fit and highly aggressive in defence.
Plus our playmakers are significantly more skilful than Munsters. Its going to be ok
Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country
Thought Ewels interview was authentic and honest, a far cry from the ‘we trained well this week’ drivel that we have heard previously.
Agree with OB 100% about sidelining the previous incumbents and giving EG and JvG the resources and authority to get on with it.
Agree with OB 100% about sidelining the previous incumbents and giving EG and JvG the resources and authority to get on with it.
Made the trip to Edinburgh and it was perfect night for a game. Edinburghs compact new stadium with Murrayfield looming in the background is excellent with stands close to the pitch and although not full probably due to Easter weekend the atmosphere was excellent.
To summarise Baths big name players Ewells, Stuart, Roco, Cokanasiga, Falatau, Dunn did not turn up. Josh Bayliss, Will Spencer worked hard and Sam Underhill was superb all night long and Edinburgh fully deserved this win.
Bath started well but let Edinburgh back into the game and we could not handle Kinghorn normally a fullback playing at standoff as he cut us to ribbons with great lines and sheer pace. We were blunt in attack with too many players running across the pitch whereas Edinburgh ran straight and hard. Our big name wingers were hesitant with the ball in hand, our centers were porous, our stand off kicked very badly and Spencer was woeful kicking possession away on numerous occasions that Edinburgh just ran back at us.
After 10 minutes of the second half our front 5 were blown and should have been replaced then not waiting till the game was lost. Richards, Rae, Du Toit, and Cordwell should been given 30 minutes to try and stop the momentum swinging. We made changes in the backs but not the forwards which was bizarre.
On paper this was as strong a Bath team we have had this season but there seems a lack of hunger in our big name players. We were only 3 games from a European final and to lose the second half 26 nil was another capitulation. It was nothing to do with the bench coming on as the damage had already been done. There seems to be a real reluctance to substitute certain players regardless of how they play and on field leadership is non existent.
Our captain needs to be either Sam Underhill or Miles Reed next season. Another second half collapse by a team full of our senior pros is simply not good enough and they should be embarrassed but I doubt it.
To summarise Baths big name players Ewells, Stuart, Roco, Cokanasiga, Falatau, Dunn did not turn up. Josh Bayliss, Will Spencer worked hard and Sam Underhill was superb all night long and Edinburgh fully deserved this win.
Bath started well but let Edinburgh back into the game and we could not handle Kinghorn normally a fullback playing at standoff as he cut us to ribbons with great lines and sheer pace. We were blunt in attack with too many players running across the pitch whereas Edinburgh ran straight and hard. Our big name wingers were hesitant with the ball in hand, our centers were porous, our stand off kicked very badly and Spencer was woeful kicking possession away on numerous occasions that Edinburgh just ran back at us.
After 10 minutes of the second half our front 5 were blown and should have been replaced then not waiting till the game was lost. Richards, Rae, Du Toit, and Cordwell should been given 30 minutes to try and stop the momentum swinging. We made changes in the backs but not the forwards which was bizarre.
On paper this was as strong a Bath team we have had this season but there seems a lack of hunger in our big name players. We were only 3 games from a European final and to lose the second half 26 nil was another capitulation. It was nothing to do with the bench coming on as the damage had already been done. There seems to be a real reluctance to substitute certain players regardless of how they play and on field leadership is non existent.
Our captain needs to be either Sam Underhill or Miles Reed next season. Another second half collapse by a team full of our senior pros is simply not good enough and they should be embarrassed but I doubt it.
Quote:OutsideBath
I share the concerns that the architects of our downfall in TM/SH are still there, just hoping they can entirely be pushed out of the way by Ed and JvG. Small pack is still going to hinder us next season, but maybe we can scrape into too 8.
As for yesterday, not too bothered as I never felt we deserved to be in the competition anyway.
For every heavy defeat we suffer the greater the task for JvG. That is the problem. Also, you continue to attribute no blame for our current demise with the head coach who stays on in an important role which makes no sense to me!
Watching the 'highlights ' some of the tries look v soft along with being quite similar.
Safe to say Brent hasn't fixed much since his arrival.
I just can't wait for jvg to arrive now with jp ferraira
At least ewels interview was honest and heartfelt. Confidence is clearly bizarrely important in elite sport where mental toughness is meant to be widespread. It is clearly still very brittle.
Good preseason and a decent start next season are vital
Safe to say Brent hasn't fixed much since his arrival.
I just can't wait for jvg to arrive now with jp ferraira
At least ewels interview was honest and heartfelt. Confidence is clearly bizarrely important in elite sport where mental toughness is meant to be widespread. It is clearly still very brittle.
Good preseason and a decent start next season are vital
Saturday was an incredibly depressing performance for me. We will rarely have a better team-sheet than that, and I felt that it would be an easy rallying call for the coaches, captain, and amongst so many senior players to get geed up along the lines of, 'let's forget the season we've had - this is a Cup, and we now have the same opportunity as every other club left in it. So let's start the game with a blank sheet of paper and don't die wondering.'
In the end, that's exactly what we did - we died wondering, and heresy as it may be - I think Ben Spencer sucked the life out of too many possessions, and by taking over the kicking duties reverted to treating Bailey like a schoolboy, which then impacted on his overall performance. I have a theory that, as a serial Saracens winner, Spencer has more authority than any of our coaches, and is probably a bit untouchable when it comes to game management and tactics.
I can forgive our league performances now, as this is effectively just pre-pre- season. But this was an opportunity to lay down some sort of marker for next season. Instead we just choked and that feels really disappointing.
In the end, that's exactly what we did - we died wondering, and heresy as it may be - I think Ben Spencer sucked the life out of too many possessions, and by taking over the kicking duties reverted to treating Bailey like a schoolboy, which then impacted on his overall performance. I have a theory that, as a serial Saracens winner, Spencer has more authority than any of our coaches, and is probably a bit untouchable when it comes to game management and tactics.
I can forgive our league performances now, as this is effectively just pre-pre- season. But this was an opportunity to lay down some sort of marker for next season. Instead we just choked and that feels really disappointing.
A total of 3 points in our last three second halves is a damning statistic and is unacceptable.
We seem to have been able to get into good positions on the scoreboard in the first 35 minutes but then just fall apart completely.
As Opti says, that was a strong side on Saturday, so why the capitulation?
We seem to have been able to get into good positions on the scoreboard in the first 35 minutes but then just fall apart completely.
As Opti says, that was a strong side on Saturday, so why the capitulation?
Quote:Optimist
In the end, that's exactly what we did - we died wondering, and heresy as it may be - I think Ben Spencer sucked the life out of too many possessions, and by taking over the kicking duties reverted to treating Bailey like a schoolboy, which then impacted on his overall performance. I have a theory that, as a serial Saracens winner, Spencer has more authority than any of our coaches, and is probably a bit untouchable when it comes to game management and tactics.
I agree, took over the kicking then missed the kick himself!
Its not the first time we play a team full of senior players and they fail though Opti.
Our better performances have been with our younger players. Massive exception is Sam Underhill.
[quote shipwrecked][quote Optimist]
Its not the first time we play a team full of senior players and they fail though Opti.
Our better performances have been with our younger players. Massive exception is Sam Underhill.[/quote]
Bath seem to have perfected selection not being linked to level of performance in any way. That must be demoralising, its like they have a set in stone pecking order some of the time.
As you say we have been better with the likes of richards and mojo in the team. I know people question mojos defence but he couldn't have done worse than clark tbf.
Its not the first time we play a team full of senior players and they fail though Opti.
Our better performances have been with our younger players. Massive exception is Sam Underhill.[/quote]
Bath seem to have perfected selection not being linked to level of performance in any way. That must be demoralising, its like they have a set in stone pecking order some of the time.
As you say we have been better with the likes of richards and mojo in the team. I know people question mojos defence but he couldn't have done worse than clark tbf.
After Faletau's titanic efforts for Wales, you'd have to be pretty brave not to pick him. But - much as I admire him as a player - he's come to embody our ability to get less out of players.
Quote:hasta
Tough to see any point in playing Faletau or Clark from now on
Very true, If you notice Cloete isn't playing for Munster any longer. Just wish Bristol would do the same with Dave Atwood!
I definitely agree that some players are on pedestals and are untouchable but I am still angry over Spencer's performance which gifted the ball and the game to Edinburgh as said earlier just ran hard and straight and our backs defence was a shambles. We need to play the rest of the games without players who are leaving, the ones we know about and the ones we do not know about yet.
It was so obvious that Spencers kicking game was not working and also so predictable and he singularly quite literally handed Edinburgh the momentum and we had on the bench one of the best running 9s but again we give him no time.
It was so obvious that Spencers kicking game was not working and also so predictable and he singularly quite literally handed Edinburgh the momentum and we had on the bench one of the best running 9s but again we give him no time.
Quote:hasta
Tough to see any point in playing Faletau or Clark from now on
Tobes is already in Wales and agree we shouldn’t select.
Max may not have had his best game, but previously he has played well. Unfair to tar with the same brush.
The season is over. The faint hope that the Cup might offer some modicum of redemption is over. If anything from here on in, there could easily be an argument to play the players who are leaving and wrap those that are important to our future in cotton wool.
I watched the highlights of the champions cup games tonight and was left wondering when we will be fighting in a big cup q/final? Can we do a Leicester and be back in the big time in 20mth? Whilst we continue to struggle the top half of the prem teams seem to be making progress which puts us further back still. I can't recall being more disappointed with Bath than listening to the radio commentary on Saturday night. I am trying to keep the faith but it's getting harder and harder just like it seems to be for our Charlie...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
I share your despondency Clarkey. Action has been taken which we hope will transform things.
But we are not employing magicians. As each devastating defeat goes by from an ever stronger group of players it must make the job of turning things round in one pre-season increasingly difficult.
I’m hoping that the Munster influence is strong enough to eclipse what has gone before but it’s a tall order!.
But we are not employing magicians. As each devastating defeat goes by from an ever stronger group of players it must make the job of turning things round in one pre-season increasingly difficult.
I’m hoping that the Munster influence is strong enough to eclipse what has gone before but it’s a tall order!.
I see no reason to expect anything other than another season of struggling, although hopefully no 70 point losses.
We are strengthening the coaching team, but the recruitment of players has been totally underwhelming. JvG isn’t the messiah and has a massive job just to get us out of the bottom 3.
We are strengthening the coaching team, but the recruitment of players has been totally underwhelming. JvG isn’t the messiah and has a massive job just to get us out of the bottom 3.
Quote:OutsideBath
I see no reason to expect anything other than another season of struggling, although hopefully no 70 point losses.
We are strengthening the coaching team, but the recruitment of players has been totally underwhelming. JvG isn’t the messiah and has a massive job just to get us out of the bottom 3.
However, development includes Richards, Bailey, Mojo, Dougherty, Staddon and Butt to add to TdG, Bayliss, Reid, GHW and Stalwarts like Underhill, B Spencer, McConnochie and Muir.
That's a solid player core with the right direction thats a competitive squad. You can't go shopping at Waitrose with an Aldi budget!
Quote:OutsideBath
the recruitment of players has been totally underwhelming.
OB please point me to one team that has had overwhelming recruitment for next season whilst also losing one marquee and £1.4m off the cap? If you can think of one then your next call should be to the salary cap manager to report them... As we have said before, the current recruitment is all about not going to far backwards, not signing superstars.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:OutsideBath
I see no reason to expect anything other than another season of struggling, although hopefully no 70 point losses.
We are strengthening the coaching team, but the recruitment of players has been totally underwhelming. JvG isn’t the messiah and has a massive job just to get us out of the bottom 3.
OB I understand and share your frustrations however I would not say our recruitment is underwhelming with arguably the biggest signing being JP Ferreira - the club is the victim of some incredibly poor management and leadership, the decision not to employ a defence coach has had a cataclysmic affect on the squad and the results - hopefully both these areas have been addressed.
IMHO we have recruited well with some holes still to be filled but JP Ferreira might be the absolute gem along with JVG. As BathMatt has pointed out the salary cap is causing ALL clubs issues and will assist Bath in their rebirth under JVG - I personally believe we have a core group of players if coached and trained well will deliver on the pitch - add the likes of Schreuder and Cloete to the mix and I am actually looking forward to next season - something a few months ago I was not.
Note the plural in the final line, we have signed Atwood and ?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Note the plural in the final line, we have signed Atwood and ?
It's already mid April so the "and" will be nobody.
I realise my opinion of TM does cloud my judgement somewhat, but tend to think he tells fans what they want to hear rather than what is actually happening.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:shipwrecked
Note the plural in the final line, we have signed Atwood and ?
It's already mid April so the "and" will be nobody.
I realise my opinion of TM does cloud my judgement somewhat, but tend to think he tells fans what they want to hear rather than what is actually happening.
Not sure you are right there OB, substantiated rumours have been fulfilled historically, TM stating on the Offy is more than rumour and the club have always been tardy with announcements. Stay strong OB
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:OutsideBathQuote:shipwrecked
Note the plural in the final line, we have signed Atwood and ?
It's already mid April so the "and" will be nobody.
I realise my opinion of TM does cloud my judgement somewhat, but tend to think he tells fans what they want to hear rather than what is actually happening.
Not sure you are right there OB, substantiated rumours have been fulfilled historically, TM stating on the Offy is more than rumour and the club have always been tardy with announcements. Stay strong OB
JvG's gameplan is pretty clear. I am confident there will be some important improvements in the front 5. Why else would he come to Bath and why would we have recruited him if this wasn't the way forward?
moved to other thread
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:19:11:57:33 by Optimist.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:19:11:57:33 by Optimist.
Cheers Charlie - moved that post to the Hatley thread where I meant to post it.
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