Bath
WALKABOUT OR WHITEWASH? ENGLAND IN AUSTRALIA
Lawes: or Farrell?
By PG Tips
June 20 2022
Six years after condemning his nation to a home whitewash, Eddie Jones once again takes an England squad down under. Those three victories were a high point on a journey to a record equalling unbeaten run and later a World Cup Final. This trip though is unlikely to prove as rewarding. It comes after poor showings in the past two Six Nations and a humbling in the annual Barbarians fixture. Poor recent performances and the number of injury absentees suggest they could be in for a thumping.
Since the 2020 Six Nations winning season Eddie’s selections have been incoherent, results outside the Autumn Internationals disappointing. The optimism of last summer’s attacking style (showcased against Canada and USA) is long gone after a woeful Six Nations, slumping to a second 5th place under Jones. There are reports that the squad look tired and the ease with which the Barbarians cut through England’s defence suggest morale issues as well as technical shortcomings. When Jones was appointed seven years ago some Australian pundits warned that success would be short lived and that performances would tail off as his methods became stale and morale flagged. Is that prediction about to come true?
Wallabies coach Dave Rennie loses fewer to injury than England, lock Izack Rodda the notable blow. His 35-man squad named earlier this month includes maverick Quade Cooper, speedster Marika Koroibete and bruising centre Samu Kerevi all currently playing in Japan, although under the overseas player rule he may decide to swap one of these for a France based forward -Will Skelton or Rory Arnold - to make up for Rodda’s absence. He has a strong squad available though, including a number of South Sea islanders, among them former rugby league star Suliasi Vunivalu. Names familiar to fans in Europe include veteran loose forwards Michael Hooper and David Pocock (recently named an Australian Senator) as well as Nic White, James Slipper and James O’Connor.
England may comfort themselves that ten of the party that swept through Australia six years ago return. Cowan-Dickie, George, Genge, Itoje, Lawes and the Vunipolas are the forwards with Care, Farrell and Nowell the experience in the backs. For all the hope of development for the World Cup, basing the Test team around these ten may be the best hope of victory. As well as the injured Ford, Jones may regret being without two who will not tour for family reasons, Joe Marler and Ben Youngs.
As for Bath, there are four men of The Rec in the party. Barring injury Will Stuart and Sam Underhill were always likely picks. Charlie Ewels discipline issues recently seem to have impacted his form: he is lucky to be chosen. Deserving, but also fortunate is Joe Cokanasiga who turned an ankle in the Barbarians match. Hopefully he can recover fully to play a part in the Tests. Orlando Bailey, who has had a busy season and borne considerable responsibility for his club, gets a summer rest. Whether he will welcome that leisure or not is a moot point after his ten-minute taste of test level last Sunday.
Just as experience may be Eddie’s go-to selection choice, his best chance of Test victory could lie in the style of the last tour. For the next eighteen months results and momentum matter more than entertainment. It would be no surprise if forward power, confrontation and kicking turn out to be the game plan. It will be interesting to see who is chosen as Test captain. One is not named in this squad so far and there have been murmurs in the press that Courtney Lawes will replace Owen Farrell in the role. Whatever the style, whoever the skipper, I cannot see England besting a Rennie coached team three times out of three. England wins against the Wallabies in Australia have been almost as rare as hen’s teeth. A single win could be the best they can hope for. I hope I am wrong.
The Squad:
Forwards: Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Wasps).
Backs: Henry Arundell (London Irish), Danny Care (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Will Joseph (London Irish), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers), Harry Randall (Bristol Bears), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers).
The Schedule:
First Test, Perth 2 July. Second Test, Brisbane 9 July. Third Test, Sydney, 16 July
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 20/06/2022 15:57
20/06/2022 15:57
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:19:09:17:25 by P G Tips.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:19:09:17:25 by P G Tips.
Some of Eddie's selections are truly baffling. He chose hookers Blamire, McGuigan and Singleton at various times during the season then opts for Walker after one OK outing against Barbarians. Whilst I like the selection of van Poortvliet, what has Alex Mitchell done wrong? Hassell-Collins and Radwan seemed to be next in line on the wings but both are now dumped. Barbeary looked the real deal at number 8 (specifically encouraged by EJ to switch); Ben Earl has had a storming season - both nowhere to be seen but Billy is back. Locks like Wells and Ribbans have shone all season yet he sticks assiduously with Ewels despite poor form and discipline. The list goes on and on.
It must be extremely confusing and dispiriting for these young men.
It must be extremely confusing and dispiriting for these young men.
It's almost as if Eddie has a clear idea of who he wants and how he's going to play at the RWC23 and doesn't want to give anything away now. Or he's a complete chancer who's bluff has been called and who's about get his backside handed to him.
So hard to choose.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
So hard to choose.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
The players selected by EJ for the Australia 2016 tests were;
Aus T1-16 Aus T2-16 Aus T3-16
28-39 7-23 40-44
Vunipola Vunipola Vunipola
Hartley c Hartley c Hartley c
Cole Cole Cole
Itoje Itoje Itoje
Kruis Kruis Kruis
Robshaw Robshaw Robshaw
Haskell Haskell Harrison
Vunipola Vunipola Vunipola
Youngs Youngs Youngs
Farrell Ford Ford
Yarde Nowell Nowell
Burrell Farrell Farrell
Joseph Joseph Joseph
Watson Watson Watson
Brown Brown Brown
Finishers;
C-Dickie George George
Mullan Mullan Mullan
Hill Hill Hill
Launchbury Launchbury Launchbury
Lawes Lawes Lawes
Care Clifford Clifford
Ford Care Care
Nowell Daly Daly
I can't see his current squad winning 3-0 so emphatically on this tour, they might win one test. EJ is a busted flush but still full of wind and water. Does anyone on Ere really believe he is the man to lead us into RWC 23?
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Aus T1-16 Aus T2-16 Aus T3-16
28-39 7-23 40-44
Vunipola Vunipola Vunipola
Hartley c Hartley c Hartley c
Cole Cole Cole
Itoje Itoje Itoje
Kruis Kruis Kruis
Robshaw Robshaw Robshaw
Haskell Haskell Harrison
Vunipola Vunipola Vunipola
Youngs Youngs Youngs
Farrell Ford Ford
Yarde Nowell Nowell
Burrell Farrell Farrell
Joseph Joseph Joseph
Watson Watson Watson
Brown Brown Brown
Finishers;
C-Dickie George George
Mullan Mullan Mullan
Hill Hill Hill
Launchbury Launchbury Launchbury
Lawes Lawes Lawes
Care Clifford Clifford
Ford Care Care
Nowell Daly Daly
I can't see his current squad winning 3-0 so emphatically on this tour, they might win one test. EJ is a busted flush but still full of wind and water. Does anyone on Ere really believe he is the man to lead us into RWC 23?
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:BathIron
Some of Eddie's selections are truly baffling. He chose hookers Blamire, McGuigan and Singleton at various times during the season then opts for Walker after one OK outing against Barbarians.
Barbeary looked the real deal at number 8 (specifically encouraged by EJ to switch); Ben Earl has had a storming season - both nowhere to be seen .
Completely agree BI- generally and more specifically about Blamire, Barbeary & Earl.
Blamire bags 5 tries in 6 appearances then disappears. Earl cursed by Eddie's scorn for the views of others (Player of the Year) & Barbeary could be Billy's apprentice - surely worth a place?
PG
I think now we're only 15 months out from a WC then EJ has to be the man to see it through.
I still think if he picks a big pack, plays Farrell and we give up on the fancy stuff and start kicking it, given the draw, we have a good chance of a WC semi, and then who knows what might happen. He just needs to stop experimenting/messing around and pick his WC final XV as often as he can in the 10 (must be about only 10, 12 max, before the WC) games between now and the first group game.
With this in mind, first test v Aus I'm going:
Vunipola, George, Stuart
Itoje, Hill
Lawes (c), Vunipola, Curry
Care, Smith
Farrell, Marchant
JCok, Steward, May
That team, with the likes of LCD, Underhill and Nowell on the bench, and Sinkler, Launch, Slade and Watson to come back at some stage, has a shot. EJ has just got to hang up a bit of ego (lol) and get very boring and English about it.
I still think if he picks a big pack, plays Farrell and we give up on the fancy stuff and start kicking it, given the draw, we have a good chance of a WC semi, and then who knows what might happen. He just needs to stop experimenting/messing around and pick his WC final XV as often as he can in the 10 (must be about only 10, 12 max, before the WC) games between now and the first group game.
With this in mind, first test v Aus I'm going:
Vunipola, George, Stuart
Itoje, Hill
Lawes (c), Vunipola, Curry
Care, Smith
Farrell, Marchant
JCok, Steward, May
That team, with the likes of LCD, Underhill and Nowell on the bench, and Sinkler, Launch, Slade and Watson to come back at some stage, has a shot. EJ has just got to hang up a bit of ego (lol) and get very boring and English about it.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:BathIron
Some of Eddie's selections are truly baffling. He chose hookers Blamire, McGuigan and Singleton at various times during the season then opts for Walker after one OK outing against Barbarians.
Barbeary looked the real deal at number 8 (specifically encouraged by EJ to switch); Ben Earl has had a storming season - both nowhere to be seen .
Completely agree BI- generally and more specifically about Blamire, Barbeary & Earl.
Blamire bags 5 tries in 6 appearances then disappears. Earl cursed by Eddie's scorn for the views of others (Player of the Year) & Barbeary could be Billy's apprentice - surely worth a place?
PG
Surely Malins plays just as many positions as Furbank but is better in all of them?
Agree PGT Earls being Prem player of the year would have been an instant turn-off for Eddie.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Getting the words 'World-Cup winning coach' in the same sentence as 'Eddie Jones' is all he cares about. He's given us some genuinely dismal 6Ns, some of the worst press conferences ever and terrible PR for the game of rugby union, he's chosen something like 150 players for his training camps now, and he's undermined dozens of them.
It really gets my goat that - as dr.bath illustrates - England have every chance of getting to the 'anything can happen' stage of the WC despite, not because of Eddie. Give Borthwick, Baxter, McCall or several others the job tomorrow and it would not undermine England's chances in RWC23 at all. We're stuck with him now, but irrespective of the result in the WC, he has already stayed 3 years too long.
It really gets my goat that - as dr.bath illustrates - England have every chance of getting to the 'anything can happen' stage of the WC despite, not because of Eddie. Give Borthwick, Baxter, McCall or several others the job tomorrow and it would not undermine England's chances in RWC23 at all. We're stuck with him now, but irrespective of the result in the WC, he has already stayed 3 years too long.
Who could possibly think that getting rid of a poorly performing national coach 18 months before a World Cup would be anything but a disaster? I mean, just look at the sacking of Allister Coetzee in February 2018 and the mess that the Springboks were in come the 2019 Worl...oh hold on...Taxi for Eddie!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Maybe it would work if they tinned him. Maybe... but the SA approach has only worked once. Now we're here, summer tour 2022, I would let EJ, along with the players he has banked on (George, Lawes, Farrell etc), have one last shot at their last WCs. To do that, with that personnel, within this timeframe, we have to go boring.
For me, the reason why EJ hasn't had more success isn't the players he doesn't pick – Eng's player base is so big that he has a vast amount of wiggle room. I think it's to do with the coaches he has/who couldn't stand him so left. For me, his failure to bring together and hold on to a group of top coaches is why his on-pitch team hasn't achieved consistent success. No wonder the backs have no idea what to do on the pitch when they turn up to each training camp to be given a fresh set of ideas by a new bloke who wants to put his stamp on things. A lack of cohesion and identity is such a clear tell of poor coaching (see Bath), especially behind the scrum (ibid.). Maybe Borthwick truly wanted the Tigers' job so wouldn't stay? Maybe Gleeson is the best backs coach available? Maybe...
Without wanting to bring politics into it, EJ's coaching team reminds me of the Cabinet. It's a rag-tag group of yes men/women, willing to toe the line and not ruffle Big Dog's feathers. (Cockerill the Sunak in that he's decided to keep his head down as he fancies a go at the top job himself one day!). Compliance works for a bit, as the leader gets his way and his underlings say the right things about his leadership, but soon enough, the lack of quality gets exposed and disaster ensues.
Getting thumped at home by the 14-man BaaBaas the equivalent of the Cons losing to the Lib Dems in Tiverton? I'll stop there, but, again, like Bath, the XV on paper was high quality. It was the lack of cohesion in attack and defence that was blindingly obvious. And it's the lack of quality coaching that is EJ's biggest failing.
For me, the reason why EJ hasn't had more success isn't the players he doesn't pick – Eng's player base is so big that he has a vast amount of wiggle room. I think it's to do with the coaches he has/who couldn't stand him so left. For me, his failure to bring together and hold on to a group of top coaches is why his on-pitch team hasn't achieved consistent success. No wonder the backs have no idea what to do on the pitch when they turn up to each training camp to be given a fresh set of ideas by a new bloke who wants to put his stamp on things. A lack of cohesion and identity is such a clear tell of poor coaching (see Bath), especially behind the scrum (ibid.). Maybe Borthwick truly wanted the Tigers' job so wouldn't stay? Maybe Gleeson is the best backs coach available? Maybe...
Without wanting to bring politics into it, EJ's coaching team reminds me of the Cabinet. It's a rag-tag group of yes men/women, willing to toe the line and not ruffle Big Dog's feathers. (Cockerill the Sunak in that he's decided to keep his head down as he fancies a go at the top job himself one day!). Compliance works for a bit, as the leader gets his way and his underlings say the right things about his leadership, but soon enough, the lack of quality gets exposed and disaster ensues.
Getting thumped at home by the 14-man BaaBaas the equivalent of the Cons losing to the Lib Dems in Tiverton? I'll stop there, but, again, like Bath, the XV on paper was high quality. It was the lack of cohesion in attack and defence that was blindingly obvious. And it's the lack of quality coaching that is EJ's biggest failing.
The other thing that he benefited from, and then didn't, was the 'coaching' ability of Farrell and Ford. If he hadn't made such a monumental mess of last year's 6Ns he'd have been in a stronger position to resist the clamour for Marcus Smith, but in the end he needed the popularity. Ditching Ford is just one of an absolute gallery-load of perverse, stupid and unnecessary decisions.
I'd love for an England team to be built around Smith - but there isn't time for this WC, and there just isn't the all-round commitment to that all-court game. England have, since time immemorial, recoiled from it the minute one little thing goes wrong. I'm with you dr.bath - sad as it is, our best chance is to revert to the biggest pack, the biggest kickers and the simplest game possible. We won't win the WC that way, but we'll avoid getting humiliated.
If the Baa-Baas can put 50 points on England, then a fully-loaded Argentina certainly could.
I'd love for an England team to be built around Smith - but there isn't time for this WC, and there just isn't the all-round commitment to that all-court game. England have, since time immemorial, recoiled from it the minute one little thing goes wrong. I'm with you dr.bath - sad as it is, our best chance is to revert to the biggest pack, the biggest kickers and the simplest game possible. We won't win the WC that way, but we'll avoid getting humiliated.
If the Baa-Baas can put 50 points on England, then a fully-loaded Argentina certainly could.
Quote:Optimist
Ditching Ford is just one of an absolute gallery-load of perverse, stupid and unnecessary decisions.
I was confused by the fact that Ford is listed in the squad announcement as unavailable due to injury. Does that mean he would have been picked for the tour if fit?
Quote:BarnoidQuote:Optimist
Ditching Ford is just one of an absolute gallery-load of perverse, stupid and unnecessary decisions.
I was confused by the fact that Ford is listed in the squad announcement as unavailable due to injury. Does that mean he would have been picked for the tour if fit?
I assumed that he is (or was) in the wider England training squad then he was under consideration?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
He was not in the squad that trained this summer but I think would have been in consideration based on performances for Tigers- especially the Prem semi and 20 mins he survived of the final.
PG
PG
Good read - my suspicion is when the crunch comes all the changes that were made after the last world cup will largely be forgotten.
It looked like Ford rolled his ankle in the final. He has nothing to prove anyway.
Whilst the media and supporters have it in for Eddie, how the players feel is the only important fact. Not what they say, but how they feel.
Watching England recently has felt a bit like Bath at times in that it looks as though the players have lost faith in the coaching. They start the games looking well drilled but as the game goes on it starts to unravel and they rely on individual moments.
I would be ok with a change of HC before the RWC but that will only happen if there is a standout contender. I can't see the RFU taking that gamble.
Whilst the media and supporters have it in for Eddie, how the players feel is the only important fact. Not what they say, but how they feel.
Watching England recently has felt a bit like Bath at times in that it looks as though the players have lost faith in the coaching. They start the games looking well drilled but as the game goes on it starts to unravel and they rely on individual moments.
I would be ok with a change of HC before the RWC but that will only happen if there is a standout contender. I can't see the RFU taking that gamble.
Quote:B4thB4ck
It looked like Ford rolled his ankle in the final. He has nothing to prove anyway
He has ruptured his achilles and won't be back (for Sale) until the new year according to reports.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
It looked like Ford rolled his ankle in the final. He has nothing to prove anyway
He has ruptured his achilles and won't be back (for Sale) until the new year according to reports.
Sometimes those injuries take longer and the healed version of the player never really matches the original!
Oh that's terrible news for GF - he's been so bullet-proof on the whole - but he's been a professional rugby player for 13 years now and racked up over 300 games ... bound to take its toll eventually.
Quote:Optimist
Oh that's terrible news for GF - he's been so bullet-proof on the whole - but he's been a professional rugby player for 13 years now and racked up over 300 games ... bound to take its toll eventually.
Hear, hear...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Very sad to hear that. I hadn't seen it reported, do we know if it is a complete break or just a tear? I am no medic but watching the game (with no commentary) he was flexing his ankle. With a complete rupture he would not have been able to walk, so hopefully the surgeons have something to work with.
Apologies in advance for quoting the Mail,
[www.dailymail.co.uk]
George Ford is in grave danger of missing the start of next season for new club Sale, after suffering a ruptured achilles during the Premiership Final last Saturday.
...
It is understood that he was due to have a scan on Monday and is poised to have surgery later this week.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[www.dailymail.co.uk]
George Ford is in grave danger of missing the start of next season for new club Sale, after suffering a ruptured achilles during the Premiership Final last Saturday.
...
It is understood that he was due to have a scan on Monday and is poised to have surgery later this week.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
That's a downer for him (and Sale and England). Though I have a feeling Ford is one of these players who'll recover sneakily fast and'll look like he hasn't missed a beat.
Most unfortunate for Sale. It's what typically happens to our new banner signings...
Quote:BathIron
Most unfortunate for Sale. It's what typically happens to our new banner signings...
We've signed Banner's? Lovely guy but...
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Ruck reporting a leak of the starting XV for the 1st test here. A pinch of salt is probably needed but power is apparently required - [www.ruck.co.uk]
I think pace and power will be needed to beat the Aussies on Saturday...
I think pace and power will be needed to beat the Aussies on Saturday...
I can see that the 3 matches are on Sky Sports, any other way to watch? I think I watched it on NOw tv before, but forgot what the deal was. Apologies if this is already covered.
England are set to address their power deficit by unleashing two Polynesian giants against Australia on Saturday.
Joe Cokanasiga was born in Suva, Fiji which OBinFiji will hopefully confirm is in Melanesia? Billy Vunipola was born in Sydney, Australia although at least he does have Tongan parents. Notwithstanding that - if the team is accurate - at least he is playing the backs in (mainly) their first positions and also the forwards.
Bit worried about:
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
I would have thought that Care would be starting the 1st test next to Smith.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Joe Cokanasiga was born in Suva, Fiji which OBinFiji will hopefully confirm is in Melanesia? Billy Vunipola was born in Sydney, Australia although at least he does have Tongan parents. Notwithstanding that - if the team is accurate - at least he is playing the backs in (mainly) their first positions and also the forwards.
Bit worried about:
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
I would have thought that Care would be starting the 1st test next to Smith.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:woodpecker
I can see that the 3 matches are on Sky Sports, any other way to watch? I think I watched it on NOw tv before, but forgot what the deal was. Apologies if this is already covered.
NOW tv monthly pass is about £34.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:woodpecker
I can see that the 3 matches are on Sky Sports, any other way to watch? I think I watched it on NOw tv before, but forgot what the deal was. Apologies if this is already covered.
NOW tv monthly pass is about £34.
It’s on Sky Main Event Channel 401 starts at 10.15 ko 10.55.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:29:12:40:34 by CoochieCoo.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:woodpecker
I can see that the 3 matches are on Sky Sports, any other way to watch? I think I watched it on NOw tv before, but forgot what the deal was. Apologies if this is already covered.
NOW tv monthly pass is about £34.
hmm do I really want to pay for this, debatable. I will not be in UK so may not even work with VPN.
Alternatively you can do one off day passes for £12. A month pass allowing access to cricket and F1 might be attractive...
Quote:B4thB4ck
Leaked or mind games?
For the self-professed master innovator, it’s pretty pathetic that Eddie’s every-time default when faced with a do-or-die game or series is to whistle up the biggest lads he can find + Faz and May. Where are the tactical innovations? The hybrid players? The ‘finishers’? The ‘numbers on shirts are irrelevant’ surprises?
Quote:BathMatt53
England are set to address their power deficit by unleashing two Polynesian giants against Australia on Saturday.
Joe Cokanasiga was born in Suva, Fiji which OBinFiji will hopefully confirm is in Melanesia? Billy Vunipola was born in Sydney, Australia although at least he does have Tongan parents. Notwithstanding that - if the team is accurate - at least he is playing the backs in (mainly) their first positions and also the forwards.
Bit worried about:
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
I would have thought that Care would be starting the 1st test next to Smith.
I'm with you Matt re the 9/10 starters. Care to start and Randall to run amok in the last 15-20mins...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Eddie's broken Charlie Ewels who has to return to the UK with a knee injury.
Team announced:
Steward; Nowell, Marchant, Farrell, Cokanasiga; Smith, Care; Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes (capt), Curry, B Vunipola.
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, M Vunipola, Heyes, Chessum, Ludlam, Van Poortlviet, Porter, Arundell.
Looks more sensible, Arundell on the bench is great for him plus Care at 9. Nowell on the wing is pretty solid as well.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:30:08:36:23 by shipwrecked.
Steward; Nowell, Marchant, Farrell, Cokanasiga; Smith, Care; Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes (capt), Curry, B Vunipola.
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, M Vunipola, Heyes, Chessum, Ludlam, Van Poortlviet, Porter, Arundell.
Looks more sensible, Arundell on the bench is great for him plus Care at 9. Nowell on the wing is pretty solid as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:30:08:36:23 by shipwrecked.
Crikey - he’s only gone and named a pretty exciting looking 23! Lacking a bit of pace in the back row and the back 3 maybe? Pack should win plenty of set piece, but Aus will want to move them around a bit. Exciting to see Arundell do his thing in last 20 - or possibly first 20 given Joe C and Nowell combined injury record.
Hope the bench gets a run out, some exciting young players coming through.
I havent been paying too much attention, but has Cokasinaga done much to deserve his starting place for England?
Quote:woodpecker
I havent been paying too much attention, but has Cokasinaga done much to deserve his starting place for England?
Just being a big bloke is all Eddie wants Woody!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:woodpecker
I havent been paying too much attention, but has Cokasinaga done much to deserve his starting place for England?
Just being a big bloke is all Eddie wants Woody!
Hmm let's see what happens when he gets turned inside out defensively
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:shipwreckedQuote:woodpecker
I havent been paying too much attention, but has Cokasinaga done much to deserve his starting place for England?
Just being a big bloke is all Eddie wants Woody!
Hmm let's see what happens when he gets turned inside out defensively
Inclined to agree, defending a 50:22 kick is not really Joe C's forte is it, he can be link a supertanker going forward, unfortunately his ability to turn quickly is similar!
I think that pack might be the best bet for an English power game. Maybe Sinkler and Marler in reserve. We don't really have any more size we could squeeze into it. We don't have a Skelton type 2nd row and Hill seems to have upped his game this past year. Stick with that to start for the series.
I worry about the wings. Nowell simply doesn't seem to have the gas in defence and I can't see Joe against SA or Sexton or Biggar or the French. He's also got to get that eye of the Tiger in attack and use his natural size. I'm also not sure of the gas he has which we are told broke Bath speed records once.
I worry about the wings. Nowell simply doesn't seem to have the gas in defence and I can't see Joe against SA or Sexton or Biggar or the French. He's also got to get that eye of the Tiger in attack and use his natural size. I'm also not sure of the gas he has which we are told broke Bath speed records once.
I think Joe C is only third choice wing even in the Bath 15, but there are always players that seem to get capped despite just being average club players. He needs to work very hard at defence and ball handling skills.
Quote:warrenball
I think Joe C is only third choice wing even in the Bath 15, but there are always players that seem to get capped despite just being average club players. He needs to work very hard at defence and ball handling skills.
Mind you I think that he's against Andrew Kellaway who according to the internet (assuming its the same one) played for Saints in 2018 / 19? I haven't heard of him.
[www.northamptonchron.co.uk]
[wallabies.rugby]
At 183cm and 94kgs he's giving away 9cm and 18 kgs to Joe. Joe has had issues defending against small and elusive wingers before but he will sure be a handful for the lad going forwards. Marika Koroibete isn't very different in size to Kellaway. At 15 Banks is a little taller but nowhere near Steward. Unless they are spring-heeled jack I can't see then troubling England in the air?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Andrew Kellaway has just joined Rugby Australia from Aussie rules, tricky player but it seems he was shown up by James O'Connor in training. That's some step!
Has to be decided up front doesn't it, expect a tantrum from OF with Lawes being made skipper!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Has to be decided up front doesn't it, expect a tantrum from OF with Lawes being made skipper!
Quote:hasta
That is a very sloooow back three.
Do you mean ours or theirs Hasta, I could only find a bit on Kellaway online, is he slow then?
Some good articles on the Beeb about Henry Arundell today. Quoted as scoring a stunning try in training this week, although the two players he 'rounded' were both props! Didn't realise he was a Beechen Cliff boy until 14...what might have been for Bath.
Quote:shipwrecked
expect a tantrum from OF with Lawes being made skipper!
If you think Farrell is anything but the ultimate team player you haven't been paying attention.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:shipwrecked
expect a tantrum from OF with Lawes being made skipper!
If you think Farrell is anything but the ultimate team player you haven't been paying attention.
Jim Hamilton who stated on his podcast recently that despite the legendary team bonding at Sarries OF was entirely focussed on winning and couldn't care less about his team mates (including him). On that basis I'm sure he will get his head down and play his best because he knows it will result in a W, irrespective of his feelings.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I like the idea of our potential future superstars in the 9 and Arrundell on the bench but worry what happens if Care goes off after 5 minutes. He's 3rd choice at the Tigers but looks like the future for England.
Interesting article about Arundell - interviews with Sean Turner at Beechen with photos of him in the u14s team with Maggs and Graham etc. That was some team, shame he relocated.
[www.bbc.co.uk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[www.bbc.co.uk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:shipwrecked
expect a tantrum from OF with Lawes being made skipper!
If you think Farrell is anything but the ultimate team player you haven't been paying attention.
He may be the ultimate team player but for me not the best captain. The game is won up front and Lawes will inspire the likes of Itoje Vunipolas and Curry.
It may be Eddie but when England take the field I’ve not seen a change in play tactically for a long time we just do the same thing repeatedly. Farrell just does the same thing with more intensity and sometimes goes to far.
I think a great captain changes direction on field when things go wrong.
The likes of Biggar and Russell can do that.
Tantrum may have been the wrong word and I hope OF does slot in but we need something different if we want to win the RWC against the huge beasts SA and France have up front.
Lawes deserves a run and if England aren’t physically wrecked I think we should beat Australia comfortably.
Agree with that shipwrecked. My feeling is Farrell will be a leader whether or not he's Captain and England will probably benefit from both that and Lawes more easy going Captaincy style. I've not yet seen the level of on field Captaincy from Lawes in terms of managing the referee that suggests he's ideal but on the other side Farrells dulcet Northern tones and direct manner often leave the referees less than impressed so maybe it's a win overall.
Like you I think England should win the series but I also am not that up to speed with how well the Auz teams have been playing. I know the Brumbies did well and they were robbed in the game that should have got them in the final. Against that and somewhat surprisingly Jones seems to have actually picked a really nicely balanced XV with some good bench options. We live in hope!
Like you I think England should win the series but I also am not that up to speed with how well the Auz teams have been playing. I know the Brumbies did well and they were robbed in the game that should have got them in the final. Against that and somewhat surprisingly Jones seems to have actually picked a really nicely balanced XV with some good bench options. We live in hope!
Quote:OldMarovian
somewhat surprisingly Jones seems to have actually picked a really nicely balanced XV with some good bench options.
So...he has picked wingers on the wing, a full back at 15, a 13 at 13 etc...it says a lot about the last few years of his selections that we are all so pleased that he has actually picked players in the right positions.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
It is encouraging to see the selections against positions though slightly annoying if it means that Eddie the Aussie sees the 6N competition rather than a summer tour as his experimental arena.
Quade Cooper is out injured. Kick-off 11:07
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:02:11:12:20 by shipwrecked.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:02:11:12:20 by shipwrecked.
Australia 0 England 3, Farrell Pen
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Nice shape from Care, Smith and Farrell so far. And a scrum penalty won by Stuart. Promising.
Australia 0 England 6, Farrell Pen
Ouch........ bad arm injury for Tom Banks. broken?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Ouch........ bad arm injury for Tom Banks. broken?
Rusty… or 8 9 10 12 have never played together.
Far from perfect but at least a clear picture of what we’re trying to do.
Far from perfect but at least a clear picture of what we’re trying to do.
Australia 3 England 6, Lolesio Pen
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Yellow for Hill - Hair pull
Red for Swain - Head butt
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:02:11:52:06 by shipwrecked.
Red for Swain - Head butt
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:02:11:52:06 by shipwrecked.
No cohesion from either side yet, maybe there will be more space in the 2nd half. Silly red though not impressed with the hair pulling that started it.
Half Time: Australia 6 England 6, Pen Lolesio
Agree BB no discipline, Hill ...... what? Australia team massively disrupted and still even. Must do better!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Agree BB no discipline, Hill ...... what? Australia team massively disrupted and still even. Must do better!
Quote:shipwrecked
bad arm injury for Tom Banks. broken?
I'm no doctor....but I would say so!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Laughed at Hartley on these modern mullet hair cuts - 'business up the front and party out the back'.
Bath's Justin Harrison is on commentary, hope those wobbly legs are a thing of the past.
Bath's Justin Harrison is on commentary, hope those wobbly legs are a thing of the past.
So Australia 14 men go in front before Genge gets a try to make it Australia 9 England 11 so frustrating!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Penalty from Farrell now Australia score a converted try by Pataia, Australia 16 England 14
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Billy, yellow card, 14 mins left.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Fainga'a converted try Australia 23 England 14
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Lolesio has kicked 5.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
England's scrum wrecked!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Lolesio gets another conversion to Sio's try Australia 30 England 14 but Arundell's brilliance gets 7 back for England.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Australia 30 England 21
Australia 30 England 26 Van Poortvliet try
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Australia 30 England 26 Van Poortvliet try
Australia 30 England 28
Two tries from subs, whats the point of finishers if you don't give them enough time? Eddie's game time decisions cost us.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Two tries from subs, whats the point of finishers if you don't give them enough time? Eddie's game time decisions cost us.
Converted 30-28.
Missed Curry (HIA?) at breakdown in the second half. Really should have made more of the first half dominance.
PG
Missed Curry (HIA?) at breakdown in the second half. Really should have made more of the first half dominance.
PG
Hard to take any positives from that if we ignore the 2 tries at the end. Why wait until the game is lost before making an offload? Fair play to Stuart.
Quote:shipwrecked
England's scrum wrecked!
Stuart had an incredible game but was operating on fumes by that stage. What's the point of Heyes if you don't back him to come on? (which Jones did about 5 minutes later)
Auz switched off and the score flattered England. Not a good day for Farrell off the boot. One easy penalty missed the difference between a win and a loss. Overall lots of poor discipline from England and those penalties cut the momentum.
Definitely saw some positives but not to win playing gaints 14 for so long isn't good.
England's pack worry me, if you don't dominate physically then you have to win ball at the breakdown, we did neither.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Scrums were a shambles throughout. Very odd decision by Eddie to keep Stuart on for so long.
Same issue as in the home internationals - the backs didn't look as if they could score (until Arundell came on)
Same issue as in the home internationals - the backs didn't look as if they could score (until Arundell came on)
I will concede that these games are end of season grinds when the players would probably rather be on the beach but the whole game, until it was lost, it felt as though the squad need a lift in the way any team does after a long time with the same head coach. No spark, no creativity, no aspiration.
It isn't the losing that bothers me, more the lack of doing anything but the basics.
I hope the coaches have a light touch in training and try to bring some fun and humour to it. End of season is not the time for a beasting.
It isn't the losing that bothers me, more the lack of doing anything but the basics.
I hope the coaches have a light touch in training and try to bring some fun and humour to it. End of season is not the time for a beasting.
Quote:Coalminer
Scrums were a shambles throughout. Very odd decision by Eddie to keep Stuart on for so long.)
Pundits made the point that he had no push behind because the flanker, Ludlam, had been switched to No8 to cover Billy. Smart of Oz to target his side.
PG
For all the premiership exploits I don't see any of these flankers opposite Curry having the impact Underhill has. I think England really missed his tackling today.
It's kind of moot though because England don't look like they can score. Harder to eke out a 3 point win these days and it's clear the back line is all wrong.
It's kind of moot though because England don't look like they can score. Harder to eke out a 3 point win these days and it's clear the back line is all wrong.
England didn't convert territory, pressure or numbers advantage into points when it mattered. A basic game approach with no invention or spark. Smith anonymous, Farrell undercooked. Whole team strangely unfired. Ozzies smarter in game plan and passion. Gave them energy and belief,
Backward trot under EJ continues. Oz gifted us both injured players and red cards and we still couldn't win.
The coming games will bring EJ's coaching abilities into sharp definition. If today was a world cup we would be out. Let's hope next Saturday is a different story.
Backward trot under EJ continues. Oz gifted us both injured players and red cards and we still couldn't win.
The coming games will bring EJ's coaching abilities into sharp definition. If today was a world cup we would be out. Let's hope next Saturday is a different story.
Didn’t watch but Hill’s hair pulling I think came after a double handed slap to the face of Swain. Minimum two yellows for Hill to cancel out Swain’s red?
England continuing the graceful degradation as everyone else gears up towards an RWC.
England continuing the graceful degradation as everyone else gears up towards an RWC.
Quote:The Bear
For all the premiership exploits I don't see any of these flankers opposite Curry having the impact Underhill has. I think England really missed his tackling today.
It's kind of moot though because England don't look like they can score. Harder to eke out a 3 point win these days and it's clear the back line is all wrong.
If Curry has had a head knock (he got an elbow in the face in one tackle) and is out for the next match I can see Underhill returning. For all Ludlam's industry and a couple of eye catching runs, he did not threaten the Oz midfield defensively as Curry had - or Underhill can.
England can score, but took a few too many wrong options within 5M of the opposition line.
PG
True PG and they need to do things quicker as well.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I just don't see what you guys do with Underhill.
Destructive tackling wouldn't have won this game it was executing our attack that let us down and whilst Underhill has had his moments there (NZ) it really isn't a major feature of his game based on his International appearances. What was obvious was that just like the 6 Nations when Curry went off the backrow lost its balance as we lost our main jackalling threat. For me the solution is Willis (or Earls who should be out there IMO)
The result is disappointing in the extreme but I think most of us were pretty happy with (at least the majority of) this team before the game. I'm going to try and keep the faith in the team as Jones is going nowhere regardless of the results so we have to make the best of it.
What changes would you guys make for the second test? I suspect Hill may be banned. Chessum went well when he came on. Maybe he starts with Isiekwe to bench?
Need to stabilise the set piece for sure. Willis over Ludlum to bench or start if Curry is out. I was pretty skeptical about Arundell but he that was pretty amazing. Good enough to displace Nowell or Coka? Or maybe bench again but come on sooner?
Destructive tackling wouldn't have won this game it was executing our attack that let us down and whilst Underhill has had his moments there (NZ) it really isn't a major feature of his game based on his International appearances. What was obvious was that just like the 6 Nations when Curry went off the backrow lost its balance as we lost our main jackalling threat. For me the solution is Willis (or Earls who should be out there IMO)
The result is disappointing in the extreme but I think most of us were pretty happy with (at least the majority of) this team before the game. I'm going to try and keep the faith in the team as Jones is going nowhere regardless of the results so we have to make the best of it.
What changes would you guys make for the second test? I suspect Hill may be banned. Chessum went well when he came on. Maybe he starts with Isiekwe to bench?
Need to stabilise the set piece for sure. Willis over Ludlum to bench or start if Curry is out. I was pretty skeptical about Arundell but he that was pretty amazing. Good enough to displace Nowell or Coka? Or maybe bench again but come on sooner?
When you watch wave after wave make it's way forward you kind of long for some momentum shifting tackling. Willis might have won you a couple of turnovers in retreat but we'd have been retreating and we'd only give it back to the Aussies.
Earls has a different skillset that I could see an argument for but I thinkt he results suggest that Underhill and Curry actually works pretty darn well.
Earls has a different skillset that I could see an argument for but I thinkt he results suggest that Underhill and Curry actually works pretty darn well.
Fortunately nobody aside from the players care much about these games, but England really do play a boring brand of rugby and make little use of some of the exciting players we have.
I wouldn’t pay tuppence to watch Eddie’s England, the sooner he is gone the better for all of us (especially Bath).
I wouldn’t pay tuppence to watch Eddie’s England, the sooner he is gone the better for all of us (especially Bath).
Quote:Rawce
Didn’t watch but Hill’s hair pulling I think came after a double handed slap to the face of Swain. Minimum two yellows for Hill to cancel out Swain’s red?
England continuing the graceful degradation as everyone else gears up towards an RWC.
I was very surprised that first incident wasn't picked up by the TMO. Swain was well on the wrong side of the offisde line acting as blocker. Hill took exception ,bit of pushing, and then an open handed push/ slap from Hill to the face.
Hill was pulling hair in a couple of other mauls too.
He was acting like a 5 year child doing that, and hopefully will get the retrospective ban his actions warranted.
England seem to struggle when the opposition have the ball for a few phases. We don't seem to trust our defence and give away penalties or tries. We've got to get better in this area. It's pretty basic stuff.
I saw some positives with Steward and Smith trying some things. It will take time and I think it might start to click in the next few games.
Australia were there for the taking with the injuries and cards and we must be much better next week.
I saw some positives with Steward and Smith trying some things. It will take time and I think it might start to click in the next few games.
Australia were there for the taking with the injuries and cards and we must be much better next week.
The culmination of 3 years of utterly incoherent, scattergun selection from Jones, coupled with nonsensical utterances, tactical shilly-shallying, and constant changes in coaching line up. The more desperately he needs a result, the more likely it is to cloud his thinking further still.
Whatever was planned during training it didn't look as though the players believed in it. They kicked and passed without much conviction until the game was basically beyond them. The approach seemed to be just to win, no offloads, don't exert beyond what is needed, safe % rugby.
So the burning questions are:-
Is Eddie deliberately pulling on the reins to hide our plans for RWC glory from the opposition's army of analysists that could work out a counter plan? (I don't agree with this approach if true).
Or are we actually quite a poor team for which he is responsible? (If so then we can't take that form into next year)
Or just end of season jaded? (This probably applies and accounts for some of our past successes in autumn internationals when the SH opposition would have been in the same mind set).
So the burning questions are:-
Is Eddie deliberately pulling on the reins to hide our plans for RWC glory from the opposition's army of analysists that could work out a counter plan? (I don't agree with this approach if true).
Or are we actually quite a poor team for which he is responsible? (If so then we can't take that form into next year)
Or just end of season jaded? (This probably applies and accounts for some of our past successes in autumn internationals when the SH opposition would have been in the same mind set).
One match closer to the WC and precisely zero achieved in terms of establishing the best run-on XV or bench, a style of play or captaincy.
Quote:Optimist
One match closer to the WC and precisely zero achieved in terms of establishing the best run-on XV or bench, a style of play or captaincy.
If we lose the series 3-0 AND play as badly as yesterday then that would allow the RFU scope to replace him, provided there was a good replacement available.
@Opti - so would you prefer England to lose badly in the next 2 games as an investment to replacing him?
Even if we lost 3-0 the RFU wouldn't replace Eddie, Woodward got 2 goes so will Eddie.
My concern is the pack an I'm getting increasingly convinced its tiredness from too much rugby and the beasting Eddie gives them in training.
For a collection of "winners" to come together and lose can only partly be coaching. I'd add that the failure to substitute yesterday was strange.
Its not just SA and France we have to beat now its add on NZ then Australia and Argentina are close behind.
Sadly I'm doubting any success in either World Cup, I don't think either EJ or GS will be in post after their respective world cups.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
My concern is the pack an I'm getting increasingly convinced its tiredness from too much rugby and the beasting Eddie gives them in training.
For a collection of "winners" to come together and lose can only partly be coaching. I'd add that the failure to substitute yesterday was strange.
Its not just SA and France we have to beat now its add on NZ then Australia and Argentina are close behind.
Sadly I'm doubting any success in either World Cup, I don't think either EJ or GS will be in post after their respective world cups.
Quote:B4thB4ck
Is Eddie deliberately pulling on the reins to hide our plans for RWC glory from the opposition's army of analysists that could work out a counter plan? (I don't agree with this approach if true
Agree with you 100%. Even if this really was the case and we're keeping lots under-wraps for the RWC if this England team has shown anything over the last 7 years (whoever is picked) it's that it needs to run things for quite a while in real game scenarios to get comfortable with them. It's one of the huge negatives of having a team composed of small groups from many teams playing in different styles and why we were most successful playing the Sarries way, with a Sarries spine at a time when that was very successful and those players were used to winning. In a similar vein England have previously benefitted from Tigers, Wasps and Bath spines and systems.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:B4thB4ck
Is Eddie deliberately pulling on the reins to hide our plans for RWC glory from the opposition's army of analysists that could work out a counter plan? (I don't agree with this approach if true
Agree with you 100%. Even if this really was the case and we're keeping lots under-wraps for the RWC if this England team has shown anything over the last 7 years (whoever is picked) it's that it needs to run things for quite a while in real game scenarios to get comfortable with them. It's one of the huge negatives of having a team composed of small groups from many teams playing in different styles and why we were most successful playing the Sarries way, with a Sarries spine at a time when that was very successful and those players were used to winning. In a similar vein England have previously benefitted from Tigers, Wasps and Bath spines and systems.
Yep. I still think England's biggest weakness is the Gallagher Prem and the idea it gives people that you can just pick the 15 best performers.
Add to that, that even it's best teams are miles off in Europe and it's hard to see where success will come from.
Nevertheless, Eddie compounds things. Having established a stable team that nearly went the whole way, his response has been erratic and inconsistent.
Even if he has a top secret plan, these players don't believe they can deliver it.
Quote:The BearQuote:OldMarovianQuote:B4thB4ck
Is Eddie deliberately pulling on the reins to hide our plans for RWC glory from the opposition's army of analysists that could work out a counter plan? (I don't agree with this approach if true
Agree with you 100%. Even if this really was the case and we're keeping lots under-wraps for the RWC if this England team has shown anything over the last 7 years (whoever is picked) it's that it needs to run things for quite a while in real game scenarios to get comfortable with them. It's one of the huge negatives of having a team composed of small groups from many teams playing in different styles and why we were most successful playing the Sarries way, with a Sarries spine at a time when that was very successful and those players were used to winning. In a similar vein England have previously benefitted from Tigers, Wasps and Bath spines and systems.
Yep. I still think England's biggest weakness is the Gallagher Prem and the idea it gives people that you can just pick the 15 best performers.
Add to that, that even it's best teams are miles off in Europe and it's hard to see where success will come from.
Nevertheless, Eddie compounds things. Having established a stable team that nearly went the whole way, his response has been erratic and inconsistent.
Even if he has a top secret plan, these players don't believe they can deliver it.
Even if there is a 'secret plan' it's not going to work straight out of the box, players need to be familiar with it and have practiced using it. I'm not at all convinced.
Curry out of tour.
[www.bbc.co.uk]
All the best to him and hope he's OK.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[www.bbc.co.uk]
All the best to him and hope he's OK.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
This is the reason for me why we should have a stable set up by now, key players get sidelined even when match fit and on form by a knock.
Not just England Bath as well!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Not just England Bath as well!
Quote:shipwrecked
This is the reason for me why we should have a stable set up by now, key players get sidelined even when match fit and on form by a knock.
Not just England Bath as well!
In terms of the rugby I think that despite him being a great player its the area where England probably have most high quality cover in Ludlum, Willis, Underhill etc. so not sure it will hit the stability too much.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
This is the reason for me why we should have a stable set up by now, key players get sidelined even when match fit and on form by a knock.
Not just England Bath as well!
In terms of the rugby I think that despite him being a great player its the area where England probably have most high quality cover in Ludlum, Willis, Underhill etc. so not sure it will hit the stability too much.
Agree Matt, I actually think Willis was on better form than Curry at the end of the season. Curry makes some spectacular turnover but also makes a few errors that go unspotted.
It was a shame to see probably our largest most physical pack not able to dominate Australia. We need this set of guys to dominate. They lack speed and the ball skills of other options but I can't think of any other players who can come in and add physicality.
Domination up front is key to any plan we have. Otherwise we need to change everything and bring in the Mercers and Dombrandt and maybe Simmons or Earls. However, we can't then play the England way behind the pack.
I think it's too late for a plan b.
Domination up front is key to any plan we have. Otherwise we need to change everything and bring in the Mercers and Dombrandt and maybe Simmons or Earls. However, we can't then play the England way behind the pack.
I think it's too late for a plan b.
Quote:shipwrecked
Agree Matt, I actually think Willis was on better form than Curry at the end of the season. Curry makes some spectacular turnover but also makes a few errors that go unspotted.
With Curry out, why not move Lawes back to lock and play Willis and Underhill as the flankers? Nearest to the "Undercurry" pairing that so damaged New Zealand in 2019. That would also deal with the liability of Hill.
PG
Quote:B4thB4ck
I am not a totally sure what the England way is.
Confused, directionless and boring?
Bit like Bath really, when plan A doesn't work just keep going with plan A because there is no plan B.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:shipwrecked
Agree Matt, I actually think Willis was on better form than Curry at the end of the season. Curry makes some spectacular turnover but also makes a few errors that go unspotted.
With Curry out, why not move Lawes back to lock and play Willis and Underhill as the flankers? Nearest to the "Undercurry" pairing that so damaged New Zealand in 2019. That would also deal with the liability of Hill.
PG
I guess that only works as long as Billy V is firing. Without him (or Lawes) you miss that carrying option in the back row.
I will be very surprised if Jones doesn't back Hill again given he hasn't attracted the interest of the citing officer.
Great question from B4thB4ck. Maybe that's half the problem, we have no identity as a team.
Great question from B4thB4ck. Maybe that's half the problem, we have no identity as a team.
Quote:SJSQuote:P G TipsQuote:shipwrecked
Agree Matt, I actually think Willis was on better form than Curry at the end of the season. Curry makes some spectacular turnover but also makes a few errors that go unspotted.
With Curry out, why not move Lawes back to lock and play Willis and Underhill as the flankers? Nearest to the "Undercurry" pairing that so damaged New Zealand in 2019. That would also deal with the liability of Hill.
PG
I guess that only works as long as Billy V is firing. Without him (or Lawes) you miss that carrying option in the back row.
You still have Lawes... But with the form Billy V is in, he's not really performing as a carrying option so what's the point of sticking with him for that reason?
Personally I think that Lewis Ludlam and Jack Willis carry just as well as Curry.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
The point about my suggestion is that Billy is there at present.
If not, as Matt suggests Ludlam could play 8 to carry. England were not the same at breakdown though after Curry departed -which is why I propose Willis and Underhill.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:04:20:03:06 by P G Tips.
If not, as Matt suggests Ludlam could play 8 to carry. England were not the same at breakdown though after Curry departed -which is why I propose Willis and Underhill.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:04:20:03:06 by P G Tips.
Quote:P G Tips
The poin t about my suggestion is that Billy is there at present.
if not, as Matt suggests Ludlam could play 8 to carry. England were not the same at breakdown though after Curry departed -which is why I propose Willis and Underhill.
PG
UnderWillis? Wunderhill? Willihill? Winderhillis? Choices, choices...
Quote:B4thB4ck
@Opti - so would you prefer England to lose badly in the next 2 games as an investment to replacing him?
I could never say I want England to lose … the closest would be if I’ve predicted they will lose, and I kind of want to be proved right! But the result of the next 2 tests won’t change my view that it would be better if Jones had gone after the WC final.
The big problem is I just don't see Jones being let go before the RWC. Those who hired him and more importantly backed him after the last 6 Nations have too much to lose.
As such the only result I can see from a 2-1 or even 3-0 is him getting more extreme. That isn't going to be good for anyone.
Only thing I could see changing is if the team has lost confidence in him. I have no idea what they feel but you'd have to be very brave and pretty confident less than a year out from the RWC to lead a "no confidence" vote in the Head Coach. Also even if it was the best thing the way rugby is that person likely wouldn't be trusted by future coaches. Even worse if Borthwick is quite likely the no1 candidate then Eddies Boy becomes your new boss ... not a great situation.
As such the only result I can see from a 2-1 or even 3-0 is him getting more extreme. That isn't going to be good for anyone.
Only thing I could see changing is if the team has lost confidence in him. I have no idea what they feel but you'd have to be very brave and pretty confident less than a year out from the RWC to lead a "no confidence" vote in the Head Coach. Also even if it was the best thing the way rugby is that person likely wouldn't be trusted by future coaches. Even worse if Borthwick is quite likely the no1 candidate then Eddies Boy becomes your new boss ... not a great situation.
I agree OM, Eddie stays, same as Woodward, two terms and in any event would Northwick leave Tigers now?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I am generally a very conservative person but having seen some quite quick turnarounds in pro sport in recent times after a change of leadership I think unless Eddie has a secret plan agreed with the RFU he should be on thin ice if the next 2 games go badly. My examples - Tigers and the England cricket test team.
I accept that the RFU are likely to stick rather than twist, regardless. Plus there may not be a suitable replacement available.
My rule of thumb is that any of us could pick a team from the assembled, quality squad and send them out with a plan A guided by the analysts and specialists. When a team looks as though it is playing worse with the incumbent head coach than no coach at all it is time to change.
My guess is England will improve just enough to win the next 2 games but not enough to look like winning the RWC.
I accept that the RFU are likely to stick rather than twist, regardless. Plus there may not be a suitable replacement available.
My rule of thumb is that any of us could pick a team from the assembled, quality squad and send them out with a plan A guided by the analysts and specialists. When a team looks as though it is playing worse with the incumbent head coach than no coach at all it is time to change.
My guess is England will improve just enough to win the next 2 games but not enough to look like winning the RWC.
If it were a hovering body with a clear understanding of its brief then there would be a chance of decisive action in time to rescue our chances at the RWC.
However, BB it’s the RFU where it takes 6 weeks to get everyone in the same country let alone city to hold a meeting.
The chances of the RFU taking clear, we’ll planned decisive action are about the same as getting a strawberry jelly to bounce.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
However, BB it’s the RFU where it takes 6 weeks to get everyone in the same country let alone city to hold a meeting.
The chances of the RFU taking clear, we’ll planned decisive action are about the same as getting a strawberry jelly to bounce.
I expect Farrell to be at 10 for the next 2 games. Smith and Care get 10 minutes if England are more than 2 scores behind at 70. Who are then blamed for the loss. Eddie's gonna basically play the Salaries First XV in the RWC. And, tbf, its probably his best chance of winning the thing now.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
iI am afraid getting rid of Jones now is not going to happen as it comes with a 7 figure price tag!
It is no good picking Smith at 10 if you are not going to play his style of rugby. You can see he is hamstrung having the brooding presence of Farrell outside him. It is Cipriani all over again and Farrell is sure he will come out on top as long as Eddie is the coach. I wonder if Eddie really wants Smith/Care to succeed?
[www.bbc.co.uk]
So Jones looked at the game and saw the need to replace Care and Marchant, both of whom I personally felt played well. Joe C I can understandand Freeman has been playing well. I have never seen anything in Porter which would make me think he is test standard but then haven't watched too much of him. However the elephant in the room remains Smith and Farrell at 10 and 12, an axis that I just can't see working to Smiths strengths (running at gaps off 2nd phase after strong first phase go-forward) whilst there are 2 puppetmasters on the pitch.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
So Jones looked at the game and saw the need to replace Care and Marchant, both of whom I personally felt played well. Joe C I can understandand Freeman has been playing well. I have never seen anything in Porter which would make me think he is test standard but then haven't watched too much of him. However the elephant in the room remains Smith and Farrell at 10 and 12, an axis that I just can't see working to Smiths strengths (running at gaps off 2nd phase after strong first phase go-forward) whilst there are 2 puppetmasters on the pitch.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Just said something very similar elsewhere Matt!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I've struggled with EJ selections all season, but can see the sense in these changes. Porter has been impressive with Leicester, he is 8kg heavier than Marchant so worth a run against a tough Australian midfield. van Poortvliet is equally impressive and definitely worth a look, with Care providing speed and variety from the bench. Freeman was outstanding against the Barbarians and I think offers more right now than JC. The 6-2 bench split is sensible and hopefully Ludluam and Willis can make a huge impact.
Quote:BathIron
I've struggled with EJ selections all season, but can see the sense in these changes. Porter has been impressive with Leicester, he is 8kg heavier than Marchant so worth a run against a tough Australian midfield. van Poortvliet is equally impressive and definitely worth a look, with Care providing speed and variety from the bench. Freeman was outstanding against the Barbarians and I think offers more right now than JC. The 6-2 bench split is sensible and hopefully Ludluam and Willis can make a huge impact.
Yes, its interesting that Willis is on the bench, Underhill I think will surprise us with his carrying but is Underhill, BV and Lawes enough to compete with their turnover specialists? Not sure.
Quote:shipwrecked
Yes, its interesting that Willis is on the bench, Underhill I think will surprise us with his carrying but is Underhill, BV and Lawes enough to compete with their turnover specialists? Not sure.
It's pains me to say but in his current form I'm not sure what the value of BV is. Having Lawes also in the back row kind of implies another carrier is needed, in which case why select Billy? I guess we just haven't got another 8.
Otherwise I've given up trying to predict Eddie's selections. Another centre partnership and a different winger/FB to the one that shone last week. We'll see how they get on...
If Eddie can’t get much out of a player as good as Marchant, then he really ought to have a look at himself. Players who he didn’t trust sufficiently to get on the pitch for any length of time, a week later are thrown into a deciding Test. That Care would get the blame was the most predictable event ever. Another incoherent jumble of selection and thinking designed purely to distract from not having a clue what type of team or game he is trying to achieve.
Quote:Optimist
If Eddie can’t get much out of a player as good as Marchant, then he really ought to have a look at himself. Players who he didn’t trust sufficiently to get on the pitch for any length of time, a week later are thrown into a deciding Test. That Care would get the blame was the most predictable event ever. Another incoherent jumble of selection and thinking designed purely to distract from not having a clue what type of team or game he is trying to achieve.
I read some where that Marcus Smith has had 4 different scrum halves and 10 different centre combinations in his short tenure at fly half.
I thought Marchant deserved a longer run. He did well for the Arrundell try and has enough gas to play at 13. EJ is like one of those 80's cricket guys who pick guys they don't really seem to trust and then don't seem to give them a fair shot at proving them wrong.
If they wanted to change the centres, then Dingwall at 12 might might have been the call.
If they wanted to change the centres, then Dingwall at 12 might might have been the call.
Agreed, for me Marchant is the go to 13 for England. Having said that he will be just as hamstrung outside Farrell as Smith is inside him due to the lack of 'ooomf' that you get from an Esterhuizen, Manu, SBW, Kerevi etc. keeping defenders honest. I don't have any huge issue with Farrell, I just think that there are many better 12s in rugby union.
My one big hope for this test is that someone has told Itoje to be quiet and concentrate on his game instead.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
My one big hope for this test is that someone has told Itoje to be quiet and concentrate on his game instead.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Dingwall hasn't really got a chance while Farrell is fit unless Smith gets injured or dropped. You have to think he will be discarded like Lawrence, Atkinson, Lozowski and Marchant as 12s. Marchant may still get a look in on the wing or at 13 but shifting Farrell when Eddie believe he is mentoring Smith simply won't happen.
The stats show that a kicking game can win you RWCs, Farrell's kicking is key for England.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The stats show that a kicking game can win you RWCs, Farrell's kicking is key for England.
Eddies got a lot of credit in the bank for me. I think he only cares about winning the RWC and realistically that is just 3 vital games.
The supporters and pundits give EJ a lot of flack but the harsh reality is that the quality of depth isn’t that good in England we’re not really performing all that well domestically or in Europe, winning every game or tournament isn’t a given just because we have one of the biggest talent pools.
The supporters and pundits give EJ a lot of flack but the harsh reality is that the quality of depth isn’t that good in England we’re not really performing all that well domestically or in Europe, winning every game or tournament isn’t a given just because we have one of the biggest talent pools.
Quote:by
the harsh reality is that the quality of depth isn’t that good in England we’re not really performing all that well domestically or in Europe, winning every game or tournament isn’t a given just because we have one of the biggest talent pools.
It would help if he picked the Premiership players of the season (or even the form players) occasionally. Why on earth is Ben Earl not there for example? Or George Ford? Or George McGuigan (15 tries this season) or Mitchell, or Ollie HC?
The difference in europe is that most of the teams who are performing have the best players and loads of them, thats a cap issue not a talent issue. If there was a team in England who had all the England players (like Leinster) or spent £20m on salaries (like some of the French teams) I'm sure they would do fine.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
It would help if he picked the Premiership players of the season (or even the form players) occasionally. Why on earth is Ben Earl not there for example? Or George Ford? Or George McGuigan (15 tries this season) or Mitchell, or Ollie HC?
I'd posit that wouldn't help. Find your 15-25 'test animals', develop a game plan and stick with them (and ideally get them playing less). No one remembers or cares about the form of the '03 winning side but no-one questioned them because Woodward trusted them and didn't treat it as an experiment.
Take Simmonds. It was clear he wasn't really going to be test class. Eddie's judgement was right. Then he had a storming season and was selected for the Lions and then for England and, unsurprisingly, they were unsuccessful.
Quote:BathMatt53
The difference in europe is that most of the teams who are performing have the best players and loads of them, thats a cap issue not a talent issue. If there was a team in England who had all the England players (like Leinster) or spent £20m on salaries (like some of the French teams) I'm sure they would do fine.
Yep, it's a cap issue but it does mean that English players are not being exposed to the most intense club matches.
I’d imagine this tour has been a real success in Eddies eyes. Managed to test the depth of the squad, play a couple of
fringe players being hyped up by the media. I suspect that we’ll have a very similar 23 to the one we played against NZ and SA in 2019 - infact I wouldn’t be surprised if Ford comes over Smith.
At the same time we still don’t seem to have a plan if Manu gets injured.
fringe players being hyped up by the media. I suspect that we’ll have a very similar 23 to the one we played against NZ and SA in 2019 - infact I wouldn’t be surprised if Ford comes over Smith.
At the same time we still don’t seem to have a plan if Manu gets injured.
Nearly 4 years and 100 or so players sifted and we’ve learned - via the most tortuous, circuitous route possible - that England win when we dominate up front and kick our goals. Arise, Sir Edward of Maaaate.
That is clearly Eddie's strategy, keep back key big hitters up front, forget running backs just don't concede and boot it. That statistically wins games.
If that is the route then there is a problem in that we need to improve our defence. There is no time for England to be an attacking force now.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
If that is the route then there is a problem in that we need to improve our defence. There is no time for England to be an attacking force now.
Quote:shipwrecked
That is clearly Eddie's strategy, keep back key big hitters up front, forget running backs just don't concede and boot it. That statistically wins games.
If that is the route then there is a problem in that we need to improve our defence. There is no time for England to be an attacking force now.
Agree that is probably the approach and, for sure, we know it can work. If we just get a bit more clinical in attack...
Still, I don't know who our defence coach is but somebody needs to get a grip of it. It's like Bath of 2-3 years ago, turning promising positions into goal line stands in the blink of an eye. It's not doing my health any good.
Agree with that Bear, I've looked back at the game an Underhill is interesting. I was initially critical of him for conceding penalties, stats show he made 8 tackles (top tacklers were J Hill and O Chessum 13,9) and he didn't carry (BV 66m) but what he did do very well was nullify Hooper.
Made me wonder about Bath a bit, I've often focused on back row being tacklers and turnover specialists rather than spoilers. Being able to nullify the likes of Reffell, Willis, Earl and Curry might be important next season in the Prem.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Made me wonder about Bath a bit, I've often focused on back row being tacklers and turnover specialists rather than spoilers. Being able to nullify the likes of Reffell, Willis, Earl and Curry might be important next season in the Prem.
Quote:shipwrecked
I've looked back at the game an Underhill is interesting. I was initially critical of him for conceding penalties, stats show he made 8 tackles (top tacklers were J Hill and O Chessum 13,9) and he didn't carry (BV 66m) but what he did do very well was nullify Hooper.
Are those blue, white an black lenses on a special prescription shipwrecked
I saw a great video of Squidges I think about our last Auz game and Underhill was specifically targeted with following and disrupting Hooper. That wasn't the case yesterday though.
Like you I watched it back and the stats don't show how much he struggled to have positive involvement.
I didn't think he was the right solution but tbf Willis might not have been either and he picked up a niggle so we never got to see. Hopefully he's an option for the last game.
Maybe like Maro (regardless of the knocks they took) they could both just do with a break and to come back refreshed next season. For me he was a real presence for Bath this season when avilable.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:shipwrecked
I've looked back at the game an Underhill is interesting. I was initially critical of him for conceding penalties, stats show he made 8 tackles (top tacklers were J Hill and O Chessum 13,9) and he didn't carry (BV 66m) but what he did do very well was nullify Hooper.
Are those blue, white an black lenses on a special prescription shipwrecked
I saw a great video of Squidges I think about our last Auz game and Underhill was specifically targeted with following and disrupting Hooper. That wasn't the case yesterday though.
Like you I watched it back and the stats don't show how much he struggled to have positive involvement.
I didn't think he was the right solution but tbf Willis might not have been either and he picked up a niggle so we never got to see. Hopefully he's an option for the last game.
Maybe like Maro (regardless of the knocks they took) they could both just do with a break and to come back refreshed next season. For me he was a real presence for Bath this season when avilable.
If you look at Hooper's stats he doesn't feature anywhere though, turnovers, carries, tackles. Underhill was there before him and got penalised for it.
Underhill didn't play in the previous game, it was Curry??
No 7s will always concede penalties. I suspect Sam did not carry because England did not specifically intend to use him as a primary carrier. He did have one good charge up the middle after collecting Smith's deflected chip.
He slipped off a couple of tackles but did enough to slow his man so the follow up tackle succeeded. I thought that he had a pretty good game, especially in unsettling Hooper at the breakdown- which I think was his primary mission.
PG
He slipped off a couple of tackles but did enough to slow his man so the follow up tackle succeeded. I thought that he had a pretty good game, especially in unsettling Hooper at the breakdown- which I think was his primary mission.
PG
I think it was last years win that the squidge video was about shipwrecked. I'll see if I can find it as it was exactly the type of performance you and PG are talking about.
The thing is you're starting with an assumption that those things are in large part (or indeed part at all) to Underhill. Watching the game doesn't bear that out. he wasn't man-marking Hooper and I have it as two direct interactions in the whole game. First few minutes he clears Hooper from the side, likely not penalised as Hopper gets the ball anyway. Later in the game he very cutely nudges Hooper fromm making an initial tackle but Hooper still manages to scrag, I think, JVP and then Underhill tackles Hooper. There's a couple of times he's a guard at a ruck and holds onto Hooper but other than that ...
He was used as a support runner quite a lot but only once as an option to pass to which was for the line break where he did a great job in committing the defence before giving a great pass to George who unfortunately carries a bit too much lumber to make the line and didn't get the ball away to Freeman? who I think probably would have. That, being tackled off the ball that gave us our first penalty, a great clear of Tuitupo and his part in the shift drive that got Billy over the line all great contributions.
His support play is a worry. With Stuart numerous times and Genge a couple he over-runs so he's not able to latch properly when the player takes contact and then isn't in a position to secure the ruck either as he's gone beyond. It happened time and time again. Two penalties in the lead up to Auz tries and after a great carry by Lawes practically on the Auz tryline he cleared one Auz defender way past the ball opening it up for the counter which duly happened. Several chances in important positions to jackal but just went straight off his feet.
Not convinced about defence either. Not a single dominant hit other than when part of a two man (or more tackle) although tbf hitting as low as he is those are far less likely. He just seems like a player short of confidence and off the pace. As I said I think he needs a break.
Quote:shipwrecked
If you look at Hooper's stats he doesn't feature anywhere though, turnovers, carries, tackles. Underhill was there before him and got penalised for it.
The thing is you're starting with an assumption that those things are in large part (or indeed part at all) to Underhill. Watching the game doesn't bear that out. he wasn't man-marking Hooper and I have it as two direct interactions in the whole game. First few minutes he clears Hooper from the side, likely not penalised as Hopper gets the ball anyway. Later in the game he very cutely nudges Hooper fromm making an initial tackle but Hooper still manages to scrag, I think, JVP and then Underhill tackles Hooper. There's a couple of times he's a guard at a ruck and holds onto Hooper but other than that ...
He was used as a support runner quite a lot but only once as an option to pass to which was for the line break where he did a great job in committing the defence before giving a great pass to George who unfortunately carries a bit too much lumber to make the line and didn't get the ball away to Freeman? who I think probably would have. That, being tackled off the ball that gave us our first penalty, a great clear of Tuitupo and his part in the shift drive that got Billy over the line all great contributions.
His support play is a worry. With Stuart numerous times and Genge a couple he over-runs so he's not able to latch properly when the player takes contact and then isn't in a position to secure the ruck either as he's gone beyond. It happened time and time again. Two penalties in the lead up to Auz tries and after a great carry by Lawes practically on the Auz tryline he cleared one Auz defender way past the ball opening it up for the counter which duly happened. Several chances in important positions to jackal but just went straight off his feet.
Not convinced about defence either. Not a single dominant hit other than when part of a two man (or more tackle) although tbf hitting as low as he is those are far less likely. He just seems like a player short of confidence and off the pace. As I said I think he needs a break.
Not sure where this Hooper man marking comes from, I'm saying he nullifies Hooper by being there first.
Why should Underhill latch on? That compromises his speed in my view he is there for the offload Genge is good at off loading.
I think Eddie is using Underhill in a different way, not as a destructive tackler nor a ball carrier but as a spoiling spearhead.
If he was underperforming in your view how come Australia came back into the game when he went off.
Seems a very harsh analysis, OM. Why incidentally, were you focusing on Underhill specifically?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Why should Underhill latch on? That compromises his speed in my view he is there for the offload Genge is good at off loading.
I think Eddie is using Underhill in a different way, not as a destructive tackler nor a ball carrier but as a spoiling spearhead.
If he was underperforming in your view how come Australia came back into the game when he went off.
Seems a very harsh analysis, OM. Why incidentally, were you focusing on Underhill specifically?
I'll be honest I'm not seeing that with Underhill getting there first to stop the threat of Hooper.
I'm not sure Genge is that good at offloading but one thing that is fairly consistent in the variety of ways that Jones has us play is we rarely offload. Billy is up there in the table of offloads and I have rarely seen him do so for England. Is it part of Stuarts game?
I'm intrigued what a spoiling spearhead does? it's not a phrase I'm familiar with.
I think he's an excellent player but I think we need more than the "UnderCurry" combination provides. A such I was interested to see how he went. A few opinions had him as having had a good game so I thought I'd give the game another watch in case my first impression was wrong.
Tbf I normally have to do that when I'm justifying that Farrell isn't the worst 12 to ever play International rugby!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:10:22:20:10 by OldMarovian.
Quote:shipwrecked
Why should Underhill latch on? That compromises his speed in my view he is there for the offload Genge is good at off loading.
I think Eddie is using Underhill in a different way, not as a destructive tackler nor a ball carrier but as a spoiling spearhead
I'm not sure Genge is that good at offloading but one thing that is fairly consistent in the variety of ways that Jones has us play is we rarely offload. Billy is up there in the table of offloads and I have rarely seen him do so for England. Is it part of Stuarts game?
I'm intrigued what a spoiling spearhead does? it's not a phrase I'm familiar with.
Quote:I'm not sure they did shipwrecked? He went off on 58 minutes after a knock. The last Auz points were scored on 54. He gave away a penalty leading to field position or play under advantage in the lead up to both tries.shipwrecked
If he was underperforming in your view how come Australia came back into the game when he went off.
Quote:I think it's harsh but I don't feel it's incorrect and am happy for anyone to call me out on my view.shipwrecked
Seems a very harsh analysis, OM. Why incidentally, were you focusing on Underhill specifically?
I think he's an excellent player but I think we need more than the "UnderCurry" combination provides. A such I was interested to see how he went. A few opinions had him as having had a good game so I thought I'd give the game another watch in case my first impression was wrong.
Tbf I normally have to do that when I'm justifying that Farrell isn't the worst 12 to ever play International rugby!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:10:22:20:10 by OldMarovian.
Quote:shipwrecked
Seems a very harsh analysis, OM. Why incidentally, were you focusing on Underhill specifically?
Presumably wants Ben Earls to be picked and, given Curry won't be dropped, Underhill is the only route.
For what it's worth, I think it is a harsh assessment. It was a mixed performance, particularly on the tackling front and the penalties, but his work to provide clean ball at the breakdown was a definite improvement on last week and he seemed to be involved with a large number of rucks. Curry (and Willis) will give you turnovers in retreat but the breakdown was notably messier.
If England were playing NZ, or AU's in the final I would have UnderCurry every day of the week. Don't care about Prem form. SA, I might try and fight fire with fire but probably would have WillCurry as it's hard to physically outmatch the Saffers.
All a bit academic for the next match as Underhill is out: [www.bbc.co.uk]
Willis could feature as his rib injury appears to have cleared up. If not, England have a problem with back row balance as there are no alternative 7s available.
Supporter views on Underhill are one thing, but it is those of the coaches that count: Seibold on Underhill: “'His work-rate on and off the ball are excellent. He's a really good defender. When he's at his best, he's very effective with his chop tackles.'
PG
Willis could feature as his rib injury appears to have cleared up. If not, England have a problem with back row balance as there are no alternative 7s available.
Supporter views on Underhill are one thing, but it is those of the coaches that count: Seibold on Underhill: “'His work-rate on and off the ball are excellent. He's a really good defender. When he's at his best, he's very effective with his chop tackles.'
PG
Biggest concern that I have with Sam is that is about the 3rd / 4th concussion he has had this year? He could do with a long and well deserved rest IMO.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Bit worrying regarding Sam the article points out he was out for 3 months in December with concussion. That's 5 players out now I really think concussion are going to impact clubs next season significantly.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Earls should be out there for sure but under Jones I no longer have any special desire to see Sarries players picked. I've been suggesting Willis for a while and would have had him start this weekend gone. Great combination of attacking and defensive play and a huge turnover threat.
Someone on this either this or the Wasps forum used to do great analysis of ruck resourcing after games with marks from 0-2 for each defensive and offensive breakdown based on whether they had a negative outcome (missing a clear, allowing a jackal, etc) a neutral one (basically being part of the ruck but not doing anything active) or a positive one (clearing out a jackaler, getting over the ball to allow quick presentation etc) I'd be very interested to see it for that game based on the Bears observations.
All immaterial in regards of the next game now and given his (and Currys) respective injury histories it's a concern that backrow is becoming such an attractional position especially with regards of head contact. I wonder if the breakdown will be the next area that we look at addressing to make the game safer?
Someone on this either this or the Wasps forum used to do great analysis of ruck resourcing after games with marks from 0-2 for each defensive and offensive breakdown based on whether they had a negative outcome (missing a clear, allowing a jackal, etc) a neutral one (basically being part of the ruck but not doing anything active) or a positive one (clearing out a jackaler, getting over the ball to allow quick presentation etc) I'd be very interested to see it for that game based on the Bears observations.
All immaterial in regards of the next game now and given his (and Currys) respective injury histories it's a concern that backrow is becoming such an attractional position especially with regards of head contact. I wonder if the breakdown will be the next area that we look at addressing to make the game safer?
Quote:OldMarovian
I wonder if the breakdown will be the next area that we look at addressing to make the game safer?
I think that Itoje, Curry and Underhill were all a result of tackling guys running a hard straight line rather than the breakdown?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I think it should be.
The incidence of concussions rose first with the introduction of League defence coaches (c2000) & again with the changed ruck laws 2007 (hands in allowed).
The much maligned rucking of the past did not produce anything like today’s concussion levels.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:11:17:14:02 by P G Tips.
The incidence of concussions rose first with the introduction of League defence coaches (c2000) & again with the changed ruck laws 2007 (hands in allowed).
The much maligned rucking of the past did not produce anything like today’s concussion levels.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:11:17:14:02 by P G Tips.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OldMarovian
I wonder if the breakdown will be the next area that we look at addressing to make the game safer?
I think that Itoje, Curry and Underhill were all a result of tackling guys running a hard straight line rather than the breakdown?
Yup you're absolutely right. Just my general feeling that defensive players are too exposed at breakdowns.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:BathMatt53Quote:OldMarovian
I wonder if the breakdown will be the next area that we look at addressing to make the game safer?
I think that Itoje, Curry and Underhill were all a result of tackling guys running a hard straight line rather than the breakdown?
Yup you're absolutely right. Just my general feeling that defensive players are too exposed at breakdowns.
My view is that breakdowns have got better due to firm policing (flying in with shoulder tucked) and new laws such as those on crocodile rolls etc. For a tackle which is two huge men or women flying into each other at high speed I can't really see how it could be policed, it's literally the ball carriers job to make the tackle as difficult as possible. Making the players smaller is the only realy thing that I could see but when units like Marler are playing full games as are Retallick and Scott Barrett at the weekend I'm not sure it would make a huge difference limiting the subs?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Nowell to 7 again? :-)
Agree about Sam, this is becoming too common for him. Long rest from contact required, he can still keep fit and strong during that time.
Agree about Sam, this is becoming too common for him. Long rest from contact required, he can still keep fit and strong during that time.
Quote:B4thB4ck
Nowell to 7 again? :-)
Agree about Sam, this is becoming too common for him. Long rest from contact required, he can still keep fit and strong during that time.
I don't really understand this "long rest" idea. In these situations, the brain damage is done and will not reverse. The brain will adapt to the loss of the brain cells to a certain extent but the snapped neurons will not miraculously heal. There is only so much cumulative damage the brain can take before it cannot compensate and that is the line we are exploring in rugby right now. We need to be honest about this.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:BathMatt53
My view is that breakdowns have got better due to firm policing (flying in with shoulder tucked) and new laws such as those on crocodile rolls etc. For a tackle which is two huge men or women flying into each other at high speed I can't really see how it could be policed, it's literally the ball carriers job to make the tackle as difficult as possible. Making the players smaller is the only realy thing that I could see but when units like Marler are playing full games as are Retallick and Scott Barrett at the weekend I'm not sure it would make a huge difference limiting the subs?
I agree. The problem is the fact that bigger, stronger men are colliding with even bigger, stronger men and it's a completely legitimate tactic for the bigger, stronger man to run into the big, strong man to knock him aside to make yardage.
I still don't know how rugby gets out of this trap but the advent of professionalism and sports nutrition and the impact it had (e.g. @ Wasps) was one of those unfortunate events that set rugby down the wrong path.
There is much in this, if you look at the women's game the physical aspect is far less of a feature and they have developed ways to get forward without going through. There is also less of a focus on kicking. The result is a more running game.
One team will lead the way with a fast passing game constantly moving the point of attack. Let's hope it is Bath!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
One team will lead the way with a fast passing game constantly moving the point of attack. Let's hope it is Bath!
Quote:shipwrecked
There is much in this, if you look at the women's game the physical aspect is far less of a feature and they have developed ways to get forward without going through. There is also less of a focus on kicking. The result is a more running game.
One team will lead the way with a fast passing game constantly moving the point of attack. Let's hope it is Bath!
cough * Harlequins* cough
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:shipwrecked
There is much in this, if you look at the women's game the physical aspect is far less of a feature and they have developed ways to get forward without going through. There is also less of a focus on kicking. The result is a more running game.
One team will lead the way with a fast passing game constantly moving the point of attack. Let's hope it is Bath!
cough * Harlequins* cough
That's the backs though Joe, I was thinking the forwards as an alternative to bashing through people.
[quote shipwrecked] One team will lead the way with a fast passing game constantly moving the point of attack. Let's hope it is Bath![/quote]
cough * Harlequins* cough[/quote]
That's the backs though Joe, I was thinking the forwards as an alternative to bashing through people.[/quote]
Hold your horses, Harlequins are literally one team that most rely on a very large back running a straight line into the opposition at high speed to set up their 2nd phase attack platform. Indeed, he was player of the season because of how well he does it. If he wasn't available, they were able to get 120kg Paul Lasike to do it (until he returned to USA a few months ago).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
cough * Harlequins* cough[/quote]
That's the backs though Joe, I was thinking the forwards as an alternative to bashing through people.[/quote]
Hold your horses, Harlequins are literally one team that most rely on a very large back running a straight line into the opposition at high speed to set up their 2nd phase attack platform. Indeed, he was player of the season because of how well he does it. If he wasn't available, they were able to get 120kg Paul Lasike to do it (until he returned to USA a few months ago).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
My comment, or Joe's? I'm for joint responsibility of the ball carrier and tackler to be safe. I'd also like to see fewer collisions, through off loading and going round players.
PG's point about congestion and tying players into rucks is valid but perhaps there isn't only one answer Matt.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
PG's point about congestion and tying players into rucks is valid but perhaps there isn't only one answer Matt.
[quote BathMatt53][quote shipwrecked] One team will lead the way with a fast passing game constantly moving the point of attack. Let's hope it is Bath![/quote]
cough * Harlequins* cough[/quote]
That's the backs though Joe, I was thinking the forwards as an alternative to bashing through people.[/quote]
Hold your horses, Harlequins are literally one team that most rely on a very large back running a straight line into the opposition at high speed to set up their 2nd phase attack platform. Indeed, he was player of the season because of how well he does it. If he wasn't available, they were able to get 120kg Paul Lasike to do it (until he returned to USA a few months ago).[/quote]
But they don't do it *all* the time, they vary their attack - which was the point being made. The threat of Esterhuizen makes that easier, sure, but there were games last season where he very conspicuously didn't get the ball at all.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
cough * Harlequins* cough[/quote]
That's the backs though Joe, I was thinking the forwards as an alternative to bashing through people.[/quote]
Hold your horses, Harlequins are literally one team that most rely on a very large back running a straight line into the opposition at high speed to set up their 2nd phase attack platform. Indeed, he was player of the season because of how well he does it. If he wasn't available, they were able to get 120kg Paul Lasike to do it (until he returned to USA a few months ago).[/quote]
But they don't do it *all* the time, they vary their attack - which was the point being made. The threat of Esterhuizen makes that easier, sure, but there were games last season where he very conspicuously didn't get the ball at all.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:shipwrecked
There is much in this, if you look at the women's game the physical aspect is far less of a feature and they have developed ways to get forward without going through. There is also less of a focus on kicking. The result is a more running game.
This is so true and its what I enjoy so much about the game (that and the general lack of cynical play) but it's definitely changing IMO. Sarries and Quins have had quite physical and direct packs for a while and Chiefs have already done well by going down the Men's game route of trundling up field with pick and goes.
I hope that it retains the balance it has now but am not convinced it will.
Bringing this back to top.
Posts on here earn advertising revenue (used to cover operating costs and make charity donations) those on non-sticky threads don't.
So- any comments about England in Australia - selection, tactics, the match itself, Eddie etc are best on here please.
PG
Posts on here earn advertising revenue (used to cover operating costs and make charity donations) those on non-sticky threads don't.
So- any comments about England in Australia - selection, tactics, the match itself, Eddie etc are best on here please.
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Bringing this back to top.
Posts on here earn advertising revenue (used to cover operating costs and make charity donations) those on non-sticky threads don't.
So- any comments about England in Australia - selection, tactics, the match itself, Eddie etc are best on here please.
PG
Out of interest PG, why don't we make *all* threads Stickies?
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:P G Tips
Bringing this back to top.
Posts on here earn advertising revenue (used to cover operating costs and make charity donations) those on non-sticky threads don't.
So- any comments about England in Australia - selection, tactics, the match itself, Eddie etc are best on here please.
PG
Out of interest PG, why don't we make *all* threads Stickies?
It’s the link to open the story of the thread that earns the revenue.
Three changes to the side for the decider. Ollie Chessum replace Itoje, Lewis Ludlam is in for Sam and Danny Care returns.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The rugby union weekly podcast on the BBC was interesting this week and revealed some of Eddie's thinking for England.
There was an intention to go attacking with Marcus Smith but following the first test that was deemed too complicated ??? As a result the ploy for the second test was a hybrid game plan involving kicking but also giving Smith the chance to "do his thing" under the management of Farrell.
Revealed by Danny Care's involvement with 'the pod' interesting discussion with inside info at the start of the broadcast.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
There was an intention to go attacking with Marcus Smith but following the first test that was deemed too complicated ??? As a result the ploy for the second test was a hybrid game plan involving kicking but also giving Smith the chance to "do his thing" under the management of Farrell.
Revealed by Danny Care's involvement with 'the pod' interesting discussion with inside info at the start of the broadcast.
Really pleased for Ludlum who fully deserves an opportunity in a big, big game. I think he'll go well. Pleased for Care - having recalled him, it would be daft not to give him this opportunity to influence such an important game. And pleased for us that Stuart is proving to be a genuine international standard prop.
If you get a chance to listen to that podcast Opti it might be of interest, it was you the post was directed at given your vocal scepticism of EJ.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Obviously Opti 
(just checking symptoms for "self importance syndrome" in psychology weekly.)
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
(just checking symptoms for "self importance syndrome" in psychology weekly.)
The lineups in full;
Teams
Australia: Hodge, Wright, Paisami, Kerevi, Koroibete, Lolesio, White, Valetini, Hooper (capt), Wilson, Philip, Frost, Tupou, Porecki, Slipper.
Replacements: Fainga'a, Bell, Ala'alatoa, Leota, Samu, McDermott, Ikitau, Vunivalu.
England: Steward, Nowell, Porter, Farrell, Freeman, Smith, Care, B Vunipola, Ludlam, Lawes (capt), Hill, Chessum, Stuart, George, Genge.
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, M Vunipola, Heyes, Isiekwe, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Joseph, Arundell.
PG
Teams
Australia: Hodge, Wright, Paisami, Kerevi, Koroibete, Lolesio, White, Valetini, Hooper (capt), Wilson, Philip, Frost, Tupou, Porecki, Slipper.
Replacements: Fainga'a, Bell, Ala'alatoa, Leota, Samu, McDermott, Ikitau, Vunivalu.
England: Steward, Nowell, Porter, Farrell, Freeman, Smith, Care, B Vunipola, Ludlam, Lawes (capt), Hill, Chessum, Stuart, George, Genge.
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, M Vunipola, Heyes, Isiekwe, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Joseph, Arundell.
PG
England could face another tough day at the breakdown.
Ludlam has played well this series but IMHO is not the 7 to best Hooper in that area and Australia can back Hooper up with Valetini & Porecki.
I wonder how long it will be before Willis makes an entry?
PG
Ludlam has played well this series but IMHO is not the 7 to best Hooper in that area and Australia can back Hooper up with Valetini & Porecki.
I wonder how long it will be before Willis makes an entry?
PG
Ludlum is different I agree PG its a different back 5 now isn't it with Hill, Chessum, Ludlum, BV and Lawes there.
Are they good enough against Hooper et al? Willis depends on how fit he is, if he isn't I don't think it helps having him there however good he is.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Are they good enough against Hooper et al? Willis depends on how fit he is, if he isn't I don't think it helps having him there however good he is.
It just feels like a very English, very powerful pack of forwards. I'd be pretty surprised if they don't win this one. Genge holding his own against Tupou will be as big a pointer as the back-row battle.
Much as expected other than Cares recall to starter. I simply don't know enough about Joseph but I'm rather surprised how quickly Marhcant seems to have fallen out of the pecking order?
Agree with others the Willis would be a better option at 7 in terms of backrow balance.
Agree with others the Willis would be a better option at 7 in terms of backrow balance.
I kind of see this current England team as the attackers (forwards trying to smash or maul over the line) and the defenders (backs who don't touch the ball when we have it so are there to make the last ditch tackles once the Aussie players have run and passed their way through our defensive line).
Not a criticism of the players per se so you can probably guess who this is aimed at.
Not a criticism of the players per se so you can probably guess who this is aimed at.
Quote:B4thB4ck
I kind of see this current England team as the attackers (forwards trying to smash or maul over the line) and the defenders (backs who don't touch the ball when we have it so are there to make the last ditch tackles once the Aussie players have run and passed their way through our defensive line).
Not a criticism of the players per se so you can probably guess who this is aimed at.
Yes BB, that's similar to the views of the podcast I linked to, the thought is EJ is developing a hybrid that is a forward dominated kick for possession side that defends the ground it makes, (70%) with finding room for the flair of Marcus Smith (30%) under OF's onfield management.
He then picks the backs accordingly, presumably Porter/Marchant to order.
We'll see if it works Saturday.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:B4thB4ck
I kind of see this current England team as the attackers (forwards trying to smash or maul over the line) and the defenders (backs who don't touch the ball when we have it so are there to make the last ditch tackles once the Aussie players have run and passed their way through our defensive line).
Not a criticism of the players per se so you can probably guess who this is aimed at.
Yes BB, that's similar to the views of the podcast I linked to, the thought is EJ is developing a hybrid that is a forward dominated kick for possession side that defends the ground it makes, (70%) with finding room for the flair of Marcus Smith (30%) under OF's onfield management.
He then picks the backs accordingly, presumably Porter/Marchant to order.
We'll see if it works Saturday.
Sorry, I haven't followed that link yet you gave. The net result is that whilst I am English I find myself rather worryingly enjoying watching Aus in possession and dozing off when England have the ball. Winning is great, but.....
Yep, success at any cost or watch entertaining attacking rugby. Major dilemma!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
....especially since this is not a tournament. If you can't experiment or take a risk in this sort of match, when can you as an international coach?
Quote:B4thB4ck
....especially since this is not a tournament. If you can't experiment or take a risk in this sort of match, when can you as an international coach?
When its a tour in the Country of your birth and you have come off the back of 2 years of (to put it politely) underwhelming results.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Let's be clear I like Danny Care.........I like the way he plays rugby.
BUT
What at 36 is doing on this tour and why is being picked ahead of Purveyfeet (sp I know)
At a time when we amazingly have about 5 young English scrum halves why are n't they there????
BUT
What at 36 is doing on this tour and why is being picked ahead of Purveyfeet (sp I know)
At a time when we amazingly have about 5 young English scrum halves why are n't they there????
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Let's be clear I like Danny Care.........I like the way he plays rugby.
BUT
What at 36 is doing on this tour and why is being picked ahead of Purveyfeet (sp I know)
At a time when we amazingly have about 5 young English scrum halves why are n't they there????
Randall is. He was the incumbent when they left for Australia - now 3rd choice apparently - or 4th if you count Youngs. And maybe 5th if you count Mitchell. Possibly even 6th if you count Willi Heinz. Probably going out for coffees with Furbank, who, hasn't had a look in - even on last week's original 6/2 bench ,despite covering 10/15 - which is a surprise to no-one other than Eddie Jones.
At the end of the day Eddies focus is on the world cup next year, not the next cycle. If a 36/37 year old is the best fit then why wouldn't he pick him even if that player retires straight after.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
....especially since this is not a tournament. If you can't experiment or take a risk in this sort of match, when can you as an international coach?
When its a tour in the Country of your birth and you have come off the back of 2 years of (to put it politely) underwhelming results.
I don't think grinding out a narrow win in a 'is that all you've got' way would win him much respect in his home country either.
I know I bang on about this but in the Rugby Union Weekly podcast @ about 10 minutes in, (a follow up discussion) Eddie Jones himself explains exactly his plan for the development of the team with plan A and plan B. It is pretty much as outlined by Danny Care in the previous podcast.
They are both worth a listen.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
They are both worth a listen.
Danny Care to be subbed at 55 minutes 47 sec according to Eddie today!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Johnny Hill or Benny Hill? Another joke as he gives away a penalty.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Englands defence? Missed tackle, Porter steps out,...... try Australia 7-3 England.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Bit concerning Porter missed another, no Marchant only Joseph and Arundell on the bench.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Care hooked! Van Pootvliet on.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Australia 10-11 England, Freddie Steward try. England lucky to be in front.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Missed tackles costing England. Ref missing forward passes by Aus and a no arm shoulder charge that stopped an Eng attack. About the right score but good to see JvP trust the backs with a free play at the end. Too often Eng get a break and then allow the oppo defence to re align by going 2nd phase one out and getting bogged down in the ruck.
Marcus Smith try, that's the difference between Smith and Ford/Farrell Australia 10-21 England
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
We look up for this 2nd half, good disruption, good pace by Smith for the 7 pts.
A few times Stuart has taken the ball to the line and then passed just before the tackle. Really good at committing the Aus defenders but keeping the move going.
Should be a good game from here? Could be quite open.
Should be a good game from here? Could be quite open.
Massive pressure from Aus, Steward holds them out, 15 to go England on the ropes! Yellow card territory 6 penalties.
Australia score, lucky to still have 15.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Australia score, lucky to still have 15.
Chessum subbed Ludlum subbed, Ludlum is no Curry/Underhill. Isekwe and Willis on.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Arundell on, can we get him any ball?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
FT Australia 17-21 England.
The good bit is our younger players got a decent go but convincing? I'm not so sure.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The good bit is our younger players got a decent go but convincing? I'm not so sure.
Good effort by the pack to win that, we looked a better balanced team with JvP running it. Shame we couldn't see a bit more of the backs, a bit of a 10 man game series. Enjoyed seeing Aus run with the ball, keeping it alive and stretching the Eng defence.
Got to take that win, good result. JvP has arrived. Lost track of the number of Aussie not straight lineouts and forward passes not given.
Lawes should definitely be captain for me.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Chessum subbed Ludlum subbed, Ludlum is no Curry/Underhill. Isekwe and Willis on.
Agreed. Would have liked to see Willis on a little earlier. Ludlam played well in the first two tests, but he was given a role today which he does not quite fit at international level.
PG
Quote:hasta
Got to take that win, good result. JvP has arrived. Lost track of the number of Aussie not straight lineouts and forward passes not given.
Quite so. 2 forward passes in their first try. A number of others missed.
Mind you - I need to watch the replay because I suspect there was an England knock on at the lineout that fed Smith's try. So- maybe evens things up.
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Would have liked to see Willis on a little earlier. Ludlam played well in the first two tests, but he was given a role today which he does not quite fit at international level.
PG
Yup, "International player" is the role he doesn't quite fit.
Chessum looked out of his depth too.
Brilliant game by Steward, another very good one by Stuart although it feels like he could do with being subbed a bit earlier?
Great shift from Billy, good shifts from the Sarries lads bar Farrell who had one to forget although his defence was pretty vital in the second half. Defending between Smith and Porter must be a nightmare.
The Ireland result was a joyous thing whilst the England series win was a clunky and ungainly thing. Still feel the correct call would be to get rid of Jones now and get Borthwick in but I don't expect it to happen.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:P G Tips
Would have liked to see Willis on a little earlier. Ludlam played well in the first two tests, but he was given a role today which he does not quite fit at international level.
PG
Yup, "International player" is the role he doesn't quite fit.
Chessum looked out of his depth too.
Brilliant game by Steward, another very good one by Stuart although it feels like he could do with being subbed a bit earlier?
Great shift from Billy, good shifts from the Sarries lads bar Farrell who had one to forget although his defence was pretty vital in the second half. Defending between Smith and Porter must be a nightmare.
The Ireland result was a joyous thing whilst the England series win was a clunky and ungainly thing. Still feel the correct call would be to get rid of Jones now and get Borthwick in but I don't expect it to happen.
I think if you have Lawes and BV in the back row, (brilliant skipper, guided Chessum) then you must have a Curry/Underhill/Willis type as balance.
Weird how the pack fired up when Care was subbed.
Watched the last 15 minutes on my phone in Studland beach .
Well done England! Looking forward to watching the game when I get home.
Widcombe Garçon
Well done England! Looking forward to watching the game when I get home.
Widcombe Garçon
Quote:Widcombe Boy
Looking forward to watching the game when I get home.
I wouldn't bother - if you have the NZ vs Ireland game on record I'd watch that instead.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:P G Tips
Would have liked to see Willis on a little earlier. Ludlam played well in the first two tests, but he was given a role today which he does not quite fit at international level.
PG
Yup, "International player" is the role he doesn't quite fit
.
Bit harsh OM. I think he’s actually a good 6 & if Billy had been injured would have made a good stand in 8. It’s just I don’t see him as a 7 for Eddie when we know what Curry, Underhill & Willis can do.
PG
Vital experience for some good young players, hopefully this will push them on.
Whether at 6 or 7 I want more from an International than he's shown for club or Country. There's a world of difference between being a carrier in the team (ie not the main focus) and taking on the direct carrying Billy does. If Ludlum could do that he'd be ahead of Augustus at Saints.
What do you look for in a 6 PG? If Lawes weren't doing such an excellent job there I think Curry is perhaps the next best suited player England have as a 6 for me. Going another way entirely I wouldn't mind seeing what someone like Ted Hill could do there.
Agree with shipwrecked that ofc the balance is the most important thing whether that's across the backrow or the pack.
What do you look for in a 6 PG? If Lawes weren't doing such an excellent job there I think Curry is perhaps the next best suited player England have as a 6 for me. Going another way entirely I wouldn't mind seeing what someone like Ted Hill could do there.
Agree with shipwrecked that ofc the balance is the most important thing whether that's across the backrow or the pack.
Dunno what game England are playing but it sure ain't rugby as I understand it
On reflection I'm not too disappointed, England were 20 minutes away from a whitewash of Australia on that tour.
On the North v South hemisphere I think that the SH dominance might have changed.
NZ might well be missing the competition with SA now the SA clubs are in the URC. SA didn't seem to be anything like the SA of 2019 RWC.
I wonder if the balance has just changed.
The dominant team is France now I reckon, plus Ireland of course.
England haven't sorted the centres but from this tour we can now say, we have some positions sorted based on EJ's podcast statement and the performances of JvP, Smith, Steward, Stewart, Genge, Itoje, Curry, Underhill and BV
Arundell has had at least some time, Marchant should come back and May and Watson now have to fight for their places.
I feel for Watson and Ashton as I can't see them getting much ball with Pollard at 10 (unless he kicks!)
We are not in pole position but semifinal could easily be on if we can get through this autumn.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
On the North v South hemisphere I think that the SH dominance might have changed.
NZ might well be missing the competition with SA now the SA clubs are in the URC. SA didn't seem to be anything like the SA of 2019 RWC.
I wonder if the balance has just changed.
The dominant team is France now I reckon, plus Ireland of course.
England haven't sorted the centres but from this tour we can now say, we have some positions sorted based on EJ's podcast statement and the performances of JvP, Smith, Steward, Stewart, Genge, Itoje, Curry, Underhill and BV
Arundell has had at least some time, Marchant should come back and May and Watson now have to fight for their places.
I feel for Watson and Ashton as I can't see them getting much ball with Pollard at 10 (unless he kicks!)
We are not in pole position but semifinal could easily be on if we can get through this autumn.
Quote:shipwrecked
England haven't sorted the centres but from this tour we can now say, we have some positions sorted based on EJ's podcast statement and the performances of JvP, Smith, Steward, Stewart, Genge, Itoje, Curry, Underhill and BV
We are not in pole position but semifinal could easily be on if we can get through this autumn.
Didn't catch EJ podcast but I wouldn't have Smith or Underhill in "sorted" category based on performances.
The huge pluses from the Series are Steward continuing his incredible trajectory, JVP who tbh I would back as no1 choice from now on and look at bringing in a different option to Youngs as no 2, Stuart who has been a revelation at TH and I think will give Sinckler both perhaps the motivation and challenge he needs to fight for the start. Hill after the first test looked exactly what we need to pair with Maro. Billy and Lawes in current form both exceptional.
LH/Hooker/TH now all look to have good cover if everyone is fit. As you rightly say the issues at centre and for me 10 (who plays there) remain. I'm not convinced this is something that will be sorted any time soon.
If was the start of the RWC tomorrow and everyone bar Manu was fit I think I'd have the following as pencilled in:
Genge, George, Sinckler, Maro, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Billy, JVP, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, Steward.
Mako, LCD, Stuart, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?
Farrell almost certainly in the XV somewhere. Ford a possible emergency call up back to 10?
Nowell and Watson both with injury records that concern me, May looks to have lost form. So three great options but some hesitancy in selecting any of them for a RWC.
Slade/Marchant at 13? It feels like there's still quite a lot to sort out with a bit over a year to go.
Agree with that OldMavorian. Hill had a great tour, couple of silly penalties aside. Stuart was quietly good as well, I don't think its a given for Sinckler to come straight back into the starting pack.
As for Ludlam, personally think hes a good bench option to cover the backrow as he can play anywhere. More versatile than Underhill although I think England played their best rugby with Underhill, Curry and BV in the backrow. Possibly more versatile than Simmonds and Dombrandt as well.
Backline is still a work in progress, not sure Smith, Farrell and Slade work in the midfield together but that's probably what we're left with. In the back 3, I'd like to see Aston and Daly come back into the squad as possible wingers, alongside Watson and Steward.
For me, my 23 for the RWC final would be:
Genge, LCD, Sinckler, Hill, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, B. Vunipola, Youngs, Farrell, Watson, Manu, Slade, Ashton, Steward.
M. Vunipola, George, Stuart, Ewels, Ludlam, JvP, Smith, Marchant.
Dombrandt as a travelling reserve.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:17:13:35:58 by by.
As for Ludlam, personally think hes a good bench option to cover the backrow as he can play anywhere. More versatile than Underhill although I think England played their best rugby with Underhill, Curry and BV in the backrow. Possibly more versatile than Simmonds and Dombrandt as well.
Backline is still a work in progress, not sure Smith, Farrell and Slade work in the midfield together but that's probably what we're left with. In the back 3, I'd like to see Aston and Daly come back into the squad as possible wingers, alongside Watson and Steward.
For me, my 23 for the RWC final would be:
Genge, LCD, Sinckler, Hill, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, B. Vunipola, Youngs, Farrell, Watson, Manu, Slade, Ashton, Steward.
M. Vunipola, George, Stuart, Ewels, Ludlam, JvP, Smith, Marchant.
Dombrandt as a travelling reserve.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:17:13:35:58 by by.
Well you should have saved yourself a pile of typing OM and listened before you posted.
For me its frustrating when stuff gets posted, not my opinion but quotes from key people and then ignored!
So here is a transcript of the podcast I've just made, bear in mind this is before the third test. I have criticised Eddie myself others have been more critical but this is NOT a coach stumbling forward he has a clear plan, it might work or might not but it puts a great deal in perspective.
Eddie describes how he set up a different training regime with what he describes as a gold team playing against the rest he talks about Arundel and Joseph forcing their way into selection as a result of the gold team being beaten five tries to nil in training.
He praises Care but states JvG might have needed time to settle.
Transcript:
Ugo: Can we talk tactics and game plan Week 1 it was you who said we were slightly too lateral was very evident in the first 20 last week, it was through the front door very abrasive, how do you think Australia are going to defend and what kind of game plan do you have in place for Saturday’s test match?
Eddie: I don’t think Australia will defend any differently they will try to be more aggressive and they’ve talked about the need to be more aggressive, Australian teams when they are under attack tend to be more aggressive and move the ball more they will get off the line a bit harder but that will depend on the speed of the ruck ball and attack wise we think that they will move the ball a little bit more then they have previously.
Chris: And in terms of style and tactics today it looks as though if you were not exactly going back to basics but that you were doing things that made you very successful in 2019 how do you think stylistically this game is going to develop going forward.
Eddie: Well we want to be able to play two styles mate, a traditionally in your face style which is the English way and then we want to play a style when we can’t dominate the game line physically where we can finesse the ball around field a little bit. We want a balance between the two. In the first test we probably finessed too much.
As this team goes along and we get to know each other we want to be able to switch from one to the other thats the aim so by the World Cup we can play a really game line focused hard running attack straight attack and then if we are not able to find holes we can finesse the defence through ball movement and deception of running lines and that’s what we are working on, to create and like every thing it takes time. It’s not done in a day but we will get there by the World Cup
Chris: Sure so is that a legacy of the World Cup final where you met a Springboks side that met you hard on the gain line and you couldn’t get the physical dominance that you had earlier in the tournament so this time round you want to be able to switch after 30 or 40 minutes and find a different way to break down this defence.
Eddie: Yes that’s what we are trying to create with the team beating able to play those two ways and I think the very best teams in the world which have been NZ particularly over the last 15 years have been able to do that, if you think about their first test against the Lions in 2018 when they played everything of 9 and smashed them around the ruck and then other games where they moved the ball from side to side with finesse and with pace and the World Cup in France I’m convinced your going to have to be able to do both and that’s the team we are trying to create here.
Ugo: what would it mean to you to this squad to win a series in Australia a second time to the development of the team for the World Cup next year.
Eddie: Yes it’s about the development of the team Ugo obviously we want to win every one wants to win the big thing is that we need to be developing as a team I love the spirit of these boys and I love the way they are all gelling together I love the way these young blokes are coming through and playing with courage ambition and determination as I said Joseph from the weekend, we attacked down the left hand side when we only had a centre and a winger left, he could have stood back and pointed to the other side but he took the challenge up took the ball short, got drilled but he hung onto the ball, that’s the sort of thing we want to see from these young players Joseph and Arundell we took them as apprentices but we have had to play them as they have been sooo impressive.
Chris: And just finally Eddie I know you’re focuses on building and performance and we have spoken to your players who have said performance comes first. What value do you put on a big win? For a player like Van Poortvliet steward Joseph and Arundell being in a changing room after winning a test in Brisbane even if the performance could lead to 2 different results how important is getting the result and the confidence that that might bring.
Eddie: We don’t think of it like that the most important thing is that we play with discipline we stick to the game plan we know how to beat Australia we tough it out but if we are not quite good enough that’s ok because we can keep improving but if we don’t stick together then that’s not good I’m convinced that if we stick together then we will get the results but the result is not as important as the performance.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
For me its frustrating when stuff gets posted, not my opinion but quotes from key people and then ignored!
So here is a transcript of the podcast I've just made, bear in mind this is before the third test. I have criticised Eddie myself others have been more critical but this is NOT a coach stumbling forward he has a clear plan, it might work or might not but it puts a great deal in perspective.
Eddie describes how he set up a different training regime with what he describes as a gold team playing against the rest he talks about Arundel and Joseph forcing their way into selection as a result of the gold team being beaten five tries to nil in training.
He praises Care but states JvG might have needed time to settle.
Transcript:
Ugo: Can we talk tactics and game plan Week 1 it was you who said we were slightly too lateral was very evident in the first 20 last week, it was through the front door very abrasive, how do you think Australia are going to defend and what kind of game plan do you have in place for Saturday’s test match?
Eddie: I don’t think Australia will defend any differently they will try to be more aggressive and they’ve talked about the need to be more aggressive, Australian teams when they are under attack tend to be more aggressive and move the ball more they will get off the line a bit harder but that will depend on the speed of the ruck ball and attack wise we think that they will move the ball a little bit more then they have previously.
Chris: And in terms of style and tactics today it looks as though if you were not exactly going back to basics but that you were doing things that made you very successful in 2019 how do you think stylistically this game is going to develop going forward.
Eddie: Well we want to be able to play two styles mate, a traditionally in your face style which is the English way and then we want to play a style when we can’t dominate the game line physically where we can finesse the ball around field a little bit. We want a balance between the two. In the first test we probably finessed too much.
As this team goes along and we get to know each other we want to be able to switch from one to the other thats the aim so by the World Cup we can play a really game line focused hard running attack straight attack and then if we are not able to find holes we can finesse the defence through ball movement and deception of running lines and that’s what we are working on, to create and like every thing it takes time. It’s not done in a day but we will get there by the World Cup
Chris: Sure so is that a legacy of the World Cup final where you met a Springboks side that met you hard on the gain line and you couldn’t get the physical dominance that you had earlier in the tournament so this time round you want to be able to switch after 30 or 40 minutes and find a different way to break down this defence.
Eddie: Yes that’s what we are trying to create with the team beating able to play those two ways and I think the very best teams in the world which have been NZ particularly over the last 15 years have been able to do that, if you think about their first test against the Lions in 2018 when they played everything of 9 and smashed them around the ruck and then other games where they moved the ball from side to side with finesse and with pace and the World Cup in France I’m convinced your going to have to be able to do both and that’s the team we are trying to create here.
Ugo: what would it mean to you to this squad to win a series in Australia a second time to the development of the team for the World Cup next year.
Eddie: Yes it’s about the development of the team Ugo obviously we want to win every one wants to win the big thing is that we need to be developing as a team I love the spirit of these boys and I love the way they are all gelling together I love the way these young blokes are coming through and playing with courage ambition and determination as I said Joseph from the weekend, we attacked down the left hand side when we only had a centre and a winger left, he could have stood back and pointed to the other side but he took the challenge up took the ball short, got drilled but he hung onto the ball, that’s the sort of thing we want to see from these young players Joseph and Arundell we took them as apprentices but we have had to play them as they have been sooo impressive.
Chris: And just finally Eddie I know you’re focuses on building and performance and we have spoken to your players who have said performance comes first. What value do you put on a big win? For a player like Van Poortvliet steward Joseph and Arundell being in a changing room after winning a test in Brisbane even if the performance could lead to 2 different results how important is getting the result and the confidence that that might bring.
Eddie: We don’t think of it like that the most important thing is that we play with discipline we stick to the game plan we know how to beat Australia we tough it out but if we are not quite good enough that’s ok because we can keep improving but if we don’t stick together then that’s not good I’m convinced that if we stick together then we will get the results but the result is not as important as the performance.
Quote:OldMarovian
Didn't catch EJ podcast but I wouldn't have Smith or Underhill in "sorted" category based on performances.[/quote
OM
Whatever we SN pundits might think or want, I expect Smith is "settled" in Eddie's mind and he will want his Smith/Farrell axis to develop and gain momentum by playing together.
Why the down on Underhill? He may not be at his best right now, but has been an Eddie regular when fit. As the saying goes, "form is temporary, class permanent".
Included in Underhill's class is his experience and 2 x MOTM performances against NZ - not to be sneezed at.
If fit when Eddie names his squad for RWC 23 I believe it would be folly to leave him out.
PG
I agree PG I didn’t transcribe everything Eddie said but if you include Danny Cares comments in the previous podcast with those above it’s clear that Smith is part of the dual mode game plan.
Care talks about how England are trying to give opportunities for Smith to express himself, not just as cameos but rearing situations for Smith to exploit with his running passing and lines of attack.
Re the back row he talks of them playing their natural game then running hard at the opposition.
This touring squad is the core for the World Cup but there are bound to be tweaks.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Care talks about how England are trying to give opportunities for Smith to express himself, not just as cameos but rearing situations for Smith to exploit with his running passing and lines of attack.
Re the back row he talks of them playing their natural game then running hard at the opposition.
This touring squad is the core for the World Cup but there are bound to be tweaks.
Hi PG. Obviously what is and isn't "sorted" is speculation at this stage as I'm not aware of Jones saying X,Y and Z are definitely starting in his RWC XV as indeed you wouldn't expect him to. Like you I fully expect him to keep backing Smith but Ford is an acknowledged back up (Jones has said himself he remains an option for the RWC) so I wouldn't regard Smith as "sorted"
Underhill is likely to travel as Jones rates him as do many others. Good luck to him if he does. My feeling is there are better options and we have time to give them a run before the RWC so I don't regard him as sorted but fully appreciate that's just my view and I'm sure its not a majority one.
... and miss the chance to blether away with my usual uninformed opinion and speculation? not on your nelly
Tbf its a thread about the Auz tour and I'd have thought by extension about thoughts after the tour was over. As I hadn't listened to the podcast mentioned I gave thoughts on that basis although I appreciate you quoting some of it so I could give it a read.
Fair enough. As you neither quoted directly comments made by Jones, before or after my posts, that specifically say some positions are "sorted" and "... the performances of JvP, Smith, Steward, Stewart, Genge, Itoje, Curry, Underhill and BV" (sic, are also presumably sorted?) reads as your opinion rather than quotes I am not sure what you imagine I am ignoring or not responding to?
I'm genuinely bewildered.
Great to hear he's taken an interest in Baths coaching set up next season but ...
It's an interesting discussion but do I really buy into it? No, tbh.
That isn't plan A and plan B it's plan Ai and plan Aii because believe me the wider, faster play with multiple runners stuff ain't beating teams who we can't also front up to physically. If it did the ABs wouldn't be in their current multi-season slump.
As for praising a player who doesn't look for width and numbers but plays towards an area with no space and excess defenders? words fail me but maybe explains Smiths Mike Brown-esque tendencies to run up blind alleys this series when he's had some great passing options.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:17:23:37:03 by OldMarovian.
Underhill is likely to travel as Jones rates him as do many others. Good luck to him if he does. My feeling is there are better options and we have time to give them a run before the RWC so I don't regard him as sorted but fully appreciate that's just my view and I'm sure its not a majority one.
Quote:shipwrecked
Well you should have saved yourself a pile of typing OM and listened before you posted
... and miss the chance to blether away with my usual uninformed opinion and speculation? not on your nelly
Tbf its a thread about the Auz tour and I'd have thought by extension about thoughts after the tour was over. As I hadn't listened to the podcast mentioned I gave thoughts on that basis although I appreciate you quoting some of it so I could give it a read.
Quote:shipwrecked
For me its frustrating when stuff gets posted, not my opinion but quotes from key people and then ignored!
Fair enough. As you neither quoted directly comments made by Jones, before or after my posts, that specifically say some positions are "sorted" and "... the performances of JvP, Smith, Steward, Stewart, Genge, Itoje, Curry, Underhill and BV" (sic, are also presumably sorted?) reads as your opinion rather than quotes I am not sure what you imagine I am ignoring or not responding to?
I'm genuinely bewildered.
Quote:shipwrecked
He praises Care but states JvG[u][/u] might have needed time to settle
Great to hear he's taken an interest in Baths coaching set up next season but ...
It's an interesting discussion but do I really buy into it? No, tbh.
That isn't plan A and plan B it's plan Ai and plan Aii because believe me the wider, faster play with multiple runners stuff ain't beating teams who we can't also front up to physically. If it did the ABs wouldn't be in their current multi-season slump.
As for praising a player who doesn't look for width and numbers but plays towards an area with no space and excess defenders? words fail me but maybe explains Smiths Mike Brown-esque tendencies to run up blind alleys this series when he's had some great passing options.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:07:17:23:37:03 by OldMarovian.
Quote:OM
It's an interesting discussion but do I really buy into it?
The point is it's NOT a discussion, its a direct statement from EJ as to how he intends to play and the players to fill those roles.
Everybody has had their own opinion but now we have the gameplan. Now if you want to say he is lying than thats up to you.
The fact is his statement fits what has happened on this tour, not only that his prediction as to how Australia would play was spot on.
One of the things I heard this weekend rings very true but I'm not sure where I heard it it was to the effect a side should believe in themselves and their way of playing, if that happens it matters not if the opposition know your plan if you do it well enough then you will win anyway.
I don't like the way Eddie breaks players in training but I've a better idea of what he wants to achieve. I also think his assessment of how the RWC in France will pan out makes sense.
It also accounts for why the likes of Dombrandt and Simmonds aren't featuring.
Sorry about JvG should of course be JvP and I may have been unkind about not listening to the podcast, I was wrong to fire that out ............ I'm blaming the heat!
Isn’t Dombrant injured SW ?
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:OM
It's an interesting discussion but do I really buy into it?
The point is it's NOT a discussion, its a direct statement from EJ as to how he intends to play and the players to fill those roles.
Everybody has had their own opinion but now we have the gameplan. Now if you want to say he is lying than thats up to you.
The fact is his statement fits what has happened on this tour, not only that his prediction as to how Australia would play was spot on.
One of the things I heard this weekend rings very true but I'm not sure where I heard it it was to the effect a side should believe in themselves and their way of playing, if that happens it matters not if the opposition know your plan if you do it well enough then you will win anyway.
I don't like the way Eddie breaks players in training but I've a better idea of what he wants to achieve. I also think his assessment of how the RWC in France will pan out makes sense.
It also accounts for why the likes of Dombrandt and Simmonds aren't featuring.
Sorry about JvG should of course be JvP and I may have been unkind about not listening to the podcast, I was wrong to fire that out ............ I'm blaming the heat!
Yes, I think you are right but he was out of favour wasn't he, BV is Eddie's flavour of the month. But I can see why Eddie might prefer a Lawes, BV (Curry/Willis/Underhill) set up. It fits the physical up the front mode of getting over the gain line as opposed to the inside back line Dombrandt picks so well. Having said that he (AD) could do both.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
The point is it's NOT a discussion, its a direct statement from EJ as to how he intends to play and the players to fill those roles
Not to labour the point but no it isn't (at least in the extract you kindly provided) He states the aim is to have two ways to play come the RWC, a plan A and B. He doesn't make any reference to specific players filling those roles does he?
His Plan B, the more open attacking game has failed consistently across all three games of the series. Personally as I've said many times I think it needs time and would continue to back Smith/Farrell and the new backs who have performed well; Steward, JVP, Freeman.
Plan A, the direct bullying and defensive pressure game got us back into the second two tests.
I honestly don't see how plan B works without plan A providing us a platform. It no longer works for the ABs and their open play is more skilful, instinctive and incisive than we can dream of ours becoming in a bit over a year IMO.
He is talking about it as two separate ways of playing from how I read it rather than saying if bullying doesn't work, see SA in the final, we want to be able to offer something additional in attack. If that was the statement I'd be fully onboard with that, in fact I think it's bloody obvious that we need to be able to do more than bully teams as eventually you almost always meet a team that will bully you right back! (See Sarries failing against Tigers in the final!)
Quote:Both injured (in Simmonds case decided to have an OP rather than make himself available)shipwrecked
It also accounts for why the likes of Dombrandt and Simmonds aren't featuring
Quote:Seems eminently sensible to me. Stay hydrated over the next few daysshipwrecked
I'm blaming the heat!
All I can say is there are links to the two discussions above, if I haven't explained it clearly enough please just listen to them yourself/selves. Its pretty clear to me what he is trying to do. I thought the transcript explained that. Obviously not.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I think both England and Australia have a lot of room for improvement. Australia especially need to improve their kicking.
I thought Chessum did better than others suggested and JVP was a revelation. Will he still be 3rd choice at his club? The Tigers certainly know how to improve young players and get them ready for the international stage.
I thought Chessum did better than others suggested and JVP was a revelation. Will he still be 3rd choice at his club? The Tigers certainly know how to improve young players and get them ready for the international stage.
Quote:cb2
JVP was a revelation. Will he still be 3rd choice at his club? The Tigers certainly know how to improve young players and get them ready for the international stage.
Surely he will be in front of (now 39 year old) Wigglesworth? I guess it depends on which of Youngs and JVP is in the England set up next season.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Find myself pretty much in agreement with OM here.
Worthless opinion alert - I haven't watched a single minute of England's games this summer, though i've listened to quite a bit of commentary.
But, nothing that I think about Eddie has changed. I've never thought that England weren't going to continue winning a reasonable proportion of games under him. I'm fairly sure that we'll do well at next year's WC - based partly on having the easiest draw ever, and the fact that 2 of the best 4 teams in the world will be eliminated before the semis having beaten the *** out of each other in the Q-Fs, but mainly on the fact that England has an almost endless production line of viable international players, and a number of high-quality GP coaching set-ups.
Of Saturday's winning side, only 5 are nailed-on to start a must-win future game. That indicates great strength-in-depth (lucky Eddie), but may or may not indicate clarity of thinking a year out from WC.
Eddie's talk of '2 styles' is a load of yadda-yadda. As far as I can tell, they' ve showed one side in these 3 test matches which England have intermittently been showing since Geoff Cooke got things together in 1990s. The second style is something that every rugby coach, everywhere in the world aspires to, but doesn't necessarily achieve. I just don't see anything very convincing about it.
Charlie Morgan in the Telegraph writes very long, very detailed analyses of how the Smith/Faz partnership 'shows signs of creating things'. Well, no **** - you put two world-class rugby players alongside each other, and in the course of 80 minutes they do some nice stuff.
But England would have won those 3 Tests more convincingly if George Ford (injury notwithstanding) had been playing 10. And, if Tuilagi is fit for QF/SF or Final, then we know full well that Faz will be back at 10.
Eddie's only 'masterstroke' of the tour was to humiliate Care - which was entirely predictable really.
I'll give him this - he clearly gets a lot out of certain forwards - Genge and Lawes, in particular, have been unbelievably good. But how he can get so little out of Marchant (not to mention Smith) - a player who would almost certainly get picked by NZ, France and Australia tells another story.
As I say, we'll do well at the WC - it's far from impossible that we win it. But I still won't believe that the last 3 years have been any sort of master plan, or even necessary. He's just very fortunate to have such a huge pool of players that he can sift, shift, discard, 'motivate' and toy with.
Worthless opinion alert - I haven't watched a single minute of England's games this summer, though i've listened to quite a bit of commentary.
But, nothing that I think about Eddie has changed. I've never thought that England weren't going to continue winning a reasonable proportion of games under him. I'm fairly sure that we'll do well at next year's WC - based partly on having the easiest draw ever, and the fact that 2 of the best 4 teams in the world will be eliminated before the semis having beaten the *** out of each other in the Q-Fs, but mainly on the fact that England has an almost endless production line of viable international players, and a number of high-quality GP coaching set-ups.
Of Saturday's winning side, only 5 are nailed-on to start a must-win future game. That indicates great strength-in-depth (lucky Eddie), but may or may not indicate clarity of thinking a year out from WC.
Eddie's talk of '2 styles' is a load of yadda-yadda. As far as I can tell, they' ve showed one side in these 3 test matches which England have intermittently been showing since Geoff Cooke got things together in 1990s. The second style is something that every rugby coach, everywhere in the world aspires to, but doesn't necessarily achieve. I just don't see anything very convincing about it.
Charlie Morgan in the Telegraph writes very long, very detailed analyses of how the Smith/Faz partnership 'shows signs of creating things'. Well, no **** - you put two world-class rugby players alongside each other, and in the course of 80 minutes they do some nice stuff.
But England would have won those 3 Tests more convincingly if George Ford (injury notwithstanding) had been playing 10. And, if Tuilagi is fit for QF/SF or Final, then we know full well that Faz will be back at 10.
Eddie's only 'masterstroke' of the tour was to humiliate Care - which was entirely predictable really.
I'll give him this - he clearly gets a lot out of certain forwards - Genge and Lawes, in particular, have been unbelievably good. But how he can get so little out of Marchant (not to mention Smith) - a player who would almost certainly get picked by NZ, France and Australia tells another story.
As I say, we'll do well at the WC - it's far from impossible that we win it. But I still won't believe that the last 3 years have been any sort of master plan, or even necessary. He's just very fortunate to have such a huge pool of players that he can sift, shift, discard, 'motivate' and toy with.
Pretty dismissive, I’m now confused though Opti if you think we will do well in the RWC isn’t that what we want?
Second question who is favourite to win the RWC in France?
Third question what is their game plan?
Finally isn’t that the same as Eddie’s?
Or do you think Eddie is lying?
PS try to watch some of that tour Genge, Stuart, Lawes, Itoje Curry/underhill were impressive carriers and Smith showed in the last test why he is there, no other 10 in England could have scored that. Ford included.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Second question who is favourite to win the RWC in France?
Third question what is their game plan?
Finally isn’t that the same as Eddie’s?
Or do you think Eddie is lying?
PS try to watch some of that tour Genge, Stuart, Lawes, Itoje Curry/underhill were impressive carriers and Smith showed in the last test why he is there, no other 10 in England could have scored that. Ford included.
Quote:shipwrecked
Second question who is favourite to win the RWC in France?
Good question. As opti says NZ and france meet each other as do SA and Ireland with the pool qualifiers then meeting each other. England will win their group then play Wales and England will play Oz in the Semi. So despite being 5th in the world rankings at the moment they have a very good chance of making the final. The last time I saw a draw as favourable for England was the Euros football.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Hopefully not 'dismissive' of you SW, for whom i have absolute respect. Eddie on the other hand.....
There was a podcast with Jack Nowell a month or so ago, in which he described reading in the press that Eddie was considering him as a flanker. A lot of the rugby writers took it reasonably seriously, and talked about hybrid players etc, and built on the Eddie mythology of how out-of-the-box he is etc.
Nowell knew nothing about it, and asked Eddie if he was serious? 'Nah, mate, I'm just messing with them'.
Is it any wonder that the rugby writers have on the whole turned against him?
I think i've explained perfectly clearly why I believe England can well do well in the WC - not due to Eddie's genius, or even general competence. But because they have a deep well of international-viable players, and a very easy draw.
"Smith showed in the last test why he is there, no other 10 in England could have scored that"
If a bit of anticipation and a turn of pace is your criteria for a fly-half then pick Jonny May there.
I'm not saying Smith should or shouldn't be there. But you could put Smith and Ford at 10/12 and there would be a couple of instances across 80 minutes when they did something interesting and exciting because they are 2 outstandingly good rugby players - that wouldn't make it a very sensible selection though.
"Second question who is favourite to win the RWC in France?"
Obviously, France.
"Third question what is their game plan?"
I don't care.
"Finally isn’t that the same as Eddie’s?"
If it is, then England are about 3 years and 3 game-plans behind, which doesn't seem the greatest of planning.
My issue is with the last 3 years, not the next one.
There was a podcast with Jack Nowell a month or so ago, in which he described reading in the press that Eddie was considering him as a flanker. A lot of the rugby writers took it reasonably seriously, and talked about hybrid players etc, and built on the Eddie mythology of how out-of-the-box he is etc.
Nowell knew nothing about it, and asked Eddie if he was serious? 'Nah, mate, I'm just messing with them'.
Is it any wonder that the rugby writers have on the whole turned against him?
I think i've explained perfectly clearly why I believe England can well do well in the WC - not due to Eddie's genius, or even general competence. But because they have a deep well of international-viable players, and a very easy draw.
"Smith showed in the last test why he is there, no other 10 in England could have scored that"
If a bit of anticipation and a turn of pace is your criteria for a fly-half then pick Jonny May there.
I'm not saying Smith should or shouldn't be there. But you could put Smith and Ford at 10/12 and there would be a couple of instances across 80 minutes when they did something interesting and exciting because they are 2 outstandingly good rugby players - that wouldn't make it a very sensible selection though.
"Second question who is favourite to win the RWC in France?"
Obviously, France.
"Third question what is their game plan?"
I don't care.
"Finally isn’t that the same as Eddie’s?"
If it is, then England are about 3 years and 3 game-plans behind, which doesn't seem the greatest of planning.
My issue is with the last 3 years, not the next one.
I actually completely understand Opti's antipathy towards Eddie but next season isn't about style of play entertainment or attacking rugby its simply going to be about results.
I've no doubt that a NH club will win it because I'm in the camp that says the SH have messed up their fixtures with SA clubs in the URC and NZ losing SA competition.
Its not rocket science to see that physical dominance coupled with flair is the way to go. Thats what France and Ireland are doing coupled with big defence and teamwork.
The thing that impressed me from those interviews was that Eddie had learned from the 2019 final, that he had a plan A and B and that hiss assessment of the opposition was spot on.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I've no doubt that a NH club will win it because I'm in the camp that says the SH have messed up their fixtures with SA clubs in the URC and NZ losing SA competition.
Its not rocket science to see that physical dominance coupled with flair is the way to go. Thats what France and Ireland are doing coupled with big defence and teamwork.
The thing that impressed me from those interviews was that Eddie had learned from the 2019 final, that he had a plan A and B and that hiss assessment of the opposition was spot on.
"physical dominance coupled with flair is the way to go"
You've just described rugby SW. Are you getting £750k a year too?
You've just described rugby SW. Are you getting £750k a year too?
I'd also observe that Steve Borthwick is Eddie's foremost assistant coach.
Genge, Steward, JVP were possibly England's 3 best players. Chessum, Porter not so much - but Tigers providing one-third of that starting line-up with 5 players, none of whom was assured an England place 12 months ago is quite something.
Genge, Steward, JVP were possibly England's 3 best players. Chessum, Porter not so much - but Tigers providing one-third of that starting line-up with 5 players, none of whom was assured an England place 12 months ago is quite something.
Quote:Optimist
"physical dominance coupled with flair is the way to go"
You've just described rugby SW. Are you getting £750k a year too?
Are you not then Opti?
No doubt SB is in pole position to replace EJ but Leicester next season will be fascinating.
Tigers are set up for 10 man rugby and I fear for Watson because Pollard isn’t going to pass much.
If that’s his rugby plan and he does get the England job then is that the game plan he will bring?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Tigers are set up for 10 man rugby and I fear for Watson because Pollard isn’t going to pass much.
If that’s his rugby plan and he does get the England job then is that the game plan he will bring?
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Second question who is favourite to win the RWC in France?
Good question. As opti says NZ and france meet each other as do SA and Ireland with the pool qualifiers then meeting each other. England will win their group then play Wales and England will play Oz in the Semi. So despite being 5th in the world rankings at the moment they have a very good chance of making the final. The last time I saw a draw as favourable for England was the Euros football.
Good point Matt, out of interest how did that turn out in the end?
So Eddie had a confrontation with some Aus fans who were calling him 'traitor' as he walked past?
The video online suggests it was all staged with the recording ready to go and capture the reaction. Hope they ban the fan. Can't stand it when idiots do that.
Or maybe show him into a room with Eddie so EJ can 'sort him out'.
The video online suggests it was all staged with the recording ready to go and capture the reaction. Hope they ban the fan. Can't stand it when idiots do that.
Or maybe show him into a room with Eddie so EJ can 'sort him out'.
I think Smith's bravery in the tackle cannot be underestimated and he was praised by the guy who kept smashing into him. Whilst Ford also gives it a go, Smith is a step up in that department and gives our defence that extra split second before he is smashed to the ground by those guys. Farrell would obviously be even better defending at 10 but Smith showed he was game.
Let's hope for some decent selection so we can get something going in attack. The natural understand that Ireland have,
proved crucial in NZ. We can't hope to match that in the time we have but we must get better in that department.
Let's hope for some decent selection so we can get something going in attack. The natural understand that Ireland have,
proved crucial in NZ. We can't hope to match that in the time we have but we must get better in that department.
Quote:Optimist
I'm not even on 750,000 lira SW!
Many years ago I got paid 1 million Lira for 3 weeks work as a residential English teacher while abroad in Italy post Poly. Received in two notes!
So where are England in WC squad terms ....?
Who would you add or remove from the list of players in genuine contention? Any bolters to add in?
Forwards in genuine contention: x 26
1. Genge, Vunipola, Rodd, Marler
2. George, LCD, Walker, Blamire, McGuigan
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Hill, Iziekwe, Launchbury
6. Lawes, Ludlum, Willis, Hill
7. Curry, Underhill, Earl,
8. Vunipola, Dombrandt
Backs in genuine contention x 23
9. JVP, Youngs, Randall, Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Ford
12. Farrell, Tuilagi, Bailey
13. Slade, Porter, Marchant, Joseph, Daly
11/14. Freeman, May, Watson, Nowell, Cokanasiga
15. Steward, Arundell, Furbank
And who is nailed on? Can add Farrell to this, but can't say yet whether he will be 10 or 12.
1. Genge
2. George/LCD
3.
4. Itoje
5. Hill
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9.
10.
12.
13.
11.
14.
15. Steward
Who would you add or remove from the list of players in genuine contention? Any bolters to add in?
Forwards in genuine contention: x 26
1. Genge, Vunipola, Rodd, Marler
2. George, LCD, Walker, Blamire, McGuigan
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Hill, Iziekwe, Launchbury
6. Lawes, Ludlum, Willis, Hill
7. Curry, Underhill, Earl,
8. Vunipola, Dombrandt
Backs in genuine contention x 23
9. JVP, Youngs, Randall, Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Ford
12. Farrell, Tuilagi, Bailey
13. Slade, Porter, Marchant, Joseph, Daly
11/14. Freeman, May, Watson, Nowell, Cokanasiga
15. Steward, Arundell, Furbank
And who is nailed on? Can add Farrell to this, but can't say yet whether he will be 10 or 12.
1. Genge
2. George/LCD
3.
4. Itoje
5. Hill
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9.
10.
12.
13.
11.
14.
15. Steward
Depends what you mean by "nailed on" Opti.
I suspect Eddie has in mind a number "nailed on" who are not intended starters- e.g. LCD at hooker, 1 or 2 of the props you have named, Ludlam/Underhill + AN Other at back row etc. A squad for a RWC will be about depth and options as much as first choice starting XV.
PG
I suspect Eddie has in mind a number "nailed on" who are not intended starters- e.g. LCD at hooker, 1 or 2 of the props you have named, Ludlam/Underhill + AN Other at back row etc. A squad for a RWC will be about depth and options as much as first choice starting XV.
PG
Quote:Optimist
So where are England in WC squad terms ....?
Who would you add or remove from the list of players in genuine contention? Any bolters to add in?
Forwards in genuine contention: x 26
1. Genge, Vunipola, Rodd, Marler
2. George, LCD, Walker, Blamire, McGuigan
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Hill, Iziekwe, Launchbury
6. Lawes, Ludlum, Willis, Hill
7. Curry, Underhill, Earl,
8. Vunipola, Dombrandt
Backs in genuine contention x 23
9. JVP, Youngs, Randall, Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Ford
12. Farrell, Tuilagi, Bailey
13. Slade, Porter, Marchant, Joseph, Daly
11/14. Freeman, May, Watson, Nowell, Cokanasiga
15. Steward, Arundell, Furbank
And who is nailed on? Can add Farrell to this, but can't say yet whether he will be 10 or 12.
1. Genge
2. George/LCD
3.
4. Itoje
5. Hill
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9.
10.
12.
13.
11.
14.
15. Steward
Interesting.
I think Cokanasiga has dropped back and I'm not sure about Johnny Hill yet (Hill in the back row?)
From my previous comments and Eddie's podcast statements, it will be Smith at 10 with his manager Farrell at 12. Eddie will go with his stalwarts as RWC winners are usually populated but 'end of career' players.
He will also go with those that facilitate a kicking game.
Thanks, I wondered if Opti was considering JH for that role.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
'Nailed-on' in this case is 'nailed-on' to start if it were a WC Q-F onwards.
I agree there are others who are nailed-on to be in the WC squad - though surprisingly few when it comes down to it.
For example, I'm not convinced that Marcus Smith is either - not because he's not a fantastic player, but because a/ he's there to allow Farrell to solve the problem 12 shirt, rather than because Eddie is committed to the kind of rugby at which Smith excels, and b/ if Ford were to extend last season's run of form it would be pretty perverse to ignore him.
I don't really care what Eddie says (remember how he wanted Roko to be a 50-cap international?), because he'd drop any plan if he so much as saw Manu run for a bus.
I forgot Joe C - he'll remain in Eddie's thoughts but he really does need a run of games with Bath and some performances that stand out over and above his height/weight stats.
I agree there are others who are nailed-on to be in the WC squad - though surprisingly few when it comes down to it.
For example, I'm not convinced that Marcus Smith is either - not because he's not a fantastic player, but because a/ he's there to allow Farrell to solve the problem 12 shirt, rather than because Eddie is committed to the kind of rugby at which Smith excels, and b/ if Ford were to extend last season's run of form it would be pretty perverse to ignore him.
I don't really care what Eddie says (remember how he wanted Roko to be a 50-cap international?), because he'd drop any plan if he so much as saw Manu run for a bus.
I forgot Joe C - he'll remain in Eddie's thoughts but he really does need a run of games with Bath and some performances that stand out over and above his height/weight stats.
Ewels may well be out for too long this season, but whatever we think of him I suspect he's a candidate for the squad.
I suspect Eddie discovered with Joe C that whatever Eddie wishes he was (Manu plus Jonah?) he's just not got the form and fitness. At this point. I hope he gets a decent run of games for us, but it's tough to see his vfm particularly compared to Muir/McC.
I think JJ's international days are well and truly behind him. I can't see how Bailey is a genuine possibility for the RWC squad.
I suspect Eddie discovered with Joe C that whatever Eddie wishes he was (Manu plus Jonah?) he's just not got the form and fitness. At this point. I hope he gets a decent run of games for us, but it's tough to see his vfm particularly compared to Muir/McC.
I think JJ's international days are well and truly behind him. I can't see how Bailey is a genuine possibility for the RWC squad.
Quote:hasta
I can't see how Bailey is a genuine possibility for the RWC squad.
He is versatile which works for him in a RWC squad (10, 12, 15) and I would assume that spot is currently taken by Furbank. I have seen absolutely nothing prove that Furbank is International standard. If OB had a stellar season I don't see why he wouldn't be somewhere in the mix although agree that post RWC is far more likely.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:hasta
I think JJ's international days are well and truly behind him. I can't see how Bailey is a genuine possibility for the RWC squad.
I'm talking about Will Joseph, who Eddie has reportedly called the player of the tour (though, cf Roko et al, that just as likely means he'll never be seen again).
Regarding Bailey ....
Eddie's current 'strategy' literally falls apart at the seams if Faz gets injured. So there has to be some sort of like-for-like player somewhere in the mix. I'd suggest that Bailey is actually a decent fit in that sense, though I guess Slade is most likely.
Of course, if Tuilagi is in the mix you don't actually need a gameplan or strategy.
Quote:OptimistQuote:hasta
I think JJ's international days are well and truly behind him. I can't see how Bailey is a genuine possibility for the RWC squad.
I'm talking about Will Joseph, who Eddie has reportedly called the player of the tour (though, cf Roko et al, that just as likely means he'll never be seen again).
Regarding Bailey ....
Eddie's current 'strategy' literally falls apart at the seams if Faz gets injured. So there has to be some sort of like-for-like player somewhere in the mix. I'd suggest that Bailey is actually a decent fit in that sense, though I guess Slade is most likely.
Of course, if Tuilagi is in the mix you don't actually need a gameplan or strategy.
Very true Opti regarding injury and we all agree about Manu but the thing is Farrell rarely gets injured. Of course the other factor now kicks in that wasn't there before and that is "concussion" and its protocols.
Those two factors injury and concussion can strip any team of their best players, of course the cynic in me might say you target the best opposition player and 'bump heads' accidentally with him to rule him out for two games.
Surely nobody would do that though.
In relation to Farrell, he is 31 in September and will be 36 by the RWC 2027 final in Australia. At what point does he start getting phased out of the team in preparation for that WC? Or will he be the next Sexton...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I managed to miss all of the England games, did Will Joseph play, how did he do? How good is he for club, I was also massively surprised that 'Joseph' was being mentioned.
Quote:woodpecker
I managed to miss all of the England games, did Will Joseph play, how did he do? How good is he for club, I was also massively surprised that 'Joseph' was being mentioned.
He was barely on the pitch - the one touch he got in the 2nd test about 2 mins from the end he was smashed. I suspect that as usual Eddie was being playful.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:woodpecker
I managed to miss all of the England games, did Will Joseph play, how did he do? How good is he for club, I was also massively surprised that 'Joseph' was being mentioned.
Got on in the second test and did well I thought but nothing startling. EJ has stated that in practice Joseph (W) and Arundell were showing up the senior backs so he felt compelled to give them time. WJ is very good on his day but I don't think he is anywhere near there yet. Arundell is different, exceptional attacker very fast and deceptively strong, he won't move Steward but could be an excellent wing in the Premiership and at International level.
Quote:OptimistQuote:hasta
I think JJ's international days are well and truly behind him. I can't see how Bailey is a genuine possibility for the RWC squad.
I'm talking about Will Joseph, who Eddie has reportedly called the player of the tour (though, cf Roko et al, that just as likely means he'll never be seen again).
Regarding Bailey ....
Eddie's current 'strategy' literally falls apart at the seams if Faz gets injured. So there has to be some sort of like-for-like player somewhere in the mix. I'd suggest that Bailey is actually a decent fit in that sense, though I guess Slade is most likely.
Of course, if Tuilagi is in the mix you don't actually need a gameplan or strategy.
Oh right. Duh.
Under the headline "World Cup Squad Calls Jones must make", The Times runs the rule over RWC 23 hopefuls.
[www.thetimes.co.uk]
They have 17 players described as "secure" and another 17 as "almost in". Interestingly, among possible "bolters" they name Zach Mercer & will Joseph.
Obano & Cokanasiga are down as "struggling".
Worth a read.
PG
[www.thetimes.co.uk]
They have 17 players described as "secure" and another 17 as "almost in". Interestingly, among possible "bolters" they name Zach Mercer & will Joseph.
Obano & Cokanasiga are down as "struggling".
Worth a read.
PG
from the same article:
Struggling Joe Marchant has dropped way down the order, having been axed after the Perth Test, with Guy Porter coming in to a mixed reception. The No 13 shirt is one of Jones’s most troublesome areas with no obvious solution unless Tuilagi is around.
What happened, did he have a bad game? Is he now one of EJs permannet casualties?
Struggling Joe Marchant has dropped way down the order, having been axed after the Perth Test, with Guy Porter coming in to a mixed reception. The No 13 shirt is one of Jones’s most troublesome areas with no obvious solution unless Tuilagi is around.
What happened, did he have a bad game? Is he now one of EJs permannet casualties?
I had high-ish hopes for Marchant outside Smith/Farrell if Jones keeps with that. I'm still not clear I saw a performance from him the that justified him being dropped? and we've certainly seen nothing from Porter to suggest he's the solution. Not convinced that Slade really works in the above combination. It's kind of sad that almost 7 years on from Jones joining we're still trying to sort the Manu problem.
Is it just the article that makes people think Marchant is less liked, I sort of got the idea Eddie was experimenting in Oz and might revert to 6N selections?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Any thoughts here with Jerusalem being played as the English anthem in the Commonwealth Games?
I would love that for our rugby team!
I would love that for our rugby team!
Quote:BathIron
Any thoughts here with Jerusalem being played as the English anthem in the Commonwealth Games?
I would love that for our rugby team!
I'd prefer "Land of Hope and Glory". The intro to the first words is just spine tingling, altho it would need to be shortened for match use!
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:BathIron
Any thoughts here with Jerusalem being played as the English anthem in the Commonwealth Games?
I would love that for our rugby team!
I'd prefer "Land of Hope and Glory". The intro to the first words is just spine tingling, altho it would need to be shortened for match use!
Either gets my vote. GSTQ is such a depressing dirge
Quote:gaz59Quote:joethefanaticQuote:BathIron
Any thoughts here with Jerusalem being played as the English anthem in the Commonwealth Games?
I would love that for our rugby team!
I'd prefer "Land of Hope and Glory". The intro to the first words is just spine tingling, altho it would need to be shortened for match use!
Either gets my vote. GSTQ is such a depressing dirge
Different anthems though, GSTQ is British we are talking an English anthem.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:gaz59Quote:joethefanaticQuote:BathIron
Any thoughts here with Jerusalem being played as the English anthem in the Commonwealth Games?
I would love that for our rugby team!
I'd prefer "Land of Hope and Glory". The intro to the first words is just spine tingling, altho it would need to be shortened for match use!
Either gets my vote. GSTQ is such a depressing dirge
Different anthems though, GSTQ is British we are talking an English anthem.
But isn't GSTQ played at major sporting matches when England are on the field?
Quote:gaz59Quote:shipwreckedQuote:gaz59Quote:joethefanaticQuote:BathIron
Any thoughts here with Jerusalem being played as the English anthem in the Commonwealth Games?
I would love that for our rugby team!
I'd prefer "Land of Hope and Glory". The intro to the first words is just spine tingling, altho it would need to be shortened for match use!
Either gets my vote. GSTQ is such a depressing dirge
Different anthems though, GSTQ is British we are talking an English anthem.
But isn't GSTQ played at major sporting matches when England are on the field?
Yes but it's the Commonwealth games, you have to differentiate between England, Wales, Scotland and NI. GSTQ covers all of them.
Quote:BathMatt53
Sweet Caroline
Nay, nay and thrice nay!!!! Bath should be playing Everybody wants to Rule the World by Tears for Fears or Goldfrapp track like Ooh la la la la...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Bath should be playing Everybody wants to Rule the World by Tears for Fears
Now that is a good idea
Now that is a good idea
"Whoomp! (There It Is)" by Tag Team, lyrics amusingly - ahem - adapted to 'Hoops! (There it is)'?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BBWBaaBaa
Bath should be playing Everybody wants to Rule the World by Tears for Fears
Now that is a good idea
A great idea and a great song
I had in mind D:ream and Things can only get better as our run-out song!
Quote:BathMatt53
Sweet Caroline
The majority of Bath fans are far too grumpy to get involved singing Sweet Caroline.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53
Sweet Caroline
The majority of Bath fans are far too grumpy to get involved singing Sweet Caroline.
I am certainly grumpy when I hear it at the Rec. I don't know how or why it's become so popular at English events, even Rod Stewart was at it during the Jubilee gig. Let's get the TFF track played at the Rec instead...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53
Sweet Caroline
The majority of Bath fans are far too grumpy to get involved singing Sweet Caroline.
I am certainly grumpy when I hear it at the Rec. I don't know how or why it's become so popular at English events, even Rod Stewart was at it during the Jubilee gig. Let's get the TFF track played at the Rec instead...
Oh dear, no wonder the Rec is like a library most games.
It's not just sung in the UK it seems to have been adopted at many US stadiums as well and the fans get into it and enjoy themselves.
[www.youtube.com]
Been in the States for decades.
"Why do fans sing ‘Sweet Caroline’ for England wins? The reason football fans sing ‘Sweet Caroline’ in particular stems from the song becoming a victory anthem for a Boston baseball team who played it during a match in the 1990s for a colleague who had named her baby Caroline."
"Why do fans sing ‘Sweet Caroline’ for England wins? The reason football fans sing ‘Sweet Caroline’ in particular stems from the song becoming a victory anthem for a Boston baseball team who played it during a match in the 1990s for a colleague who had named her baby Caroline."
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