Bath
“FINGS AIN’T WHAT THEY USED TO BE, BUT WERE THEY EVER?”
Stevens: winning try
By Bath Supporter Jack
August 15 2022
So, whilst Rugby Union was founded in 1845 with William Webb Ellis picking up and running with the ball at Rugby School some 177 years ago, the game has only been formally professional for a mere 27 years with this change taking place in 1995. Older readers of ‘ere, like me, will have played their rugby in the amateur era, or perhaps more accurately the “shamateur era”. Whilst of course below the national leagues, the game is still amateur, any current player will watch the top teams and will of course try to emulate what they see these finely trained athletes doing.
Consequently, the game has changed, and is changing, from its peak to its “grass roots”. The question raised time and time again is, are the changes positive for the game or, as the game has itself changed so much, is comparison a complete waste of time?
Briefly, going for a little nostalgic wander down memory lane my father took me to my first international match at Twickenham in 1972, England v Wales. Squads were then 21 players and having some time before kick-off and being slightly OCD (?) I worked out that the England team were represented by some 13 clubs, the Welsh squad by five. Even at my tender age I could see the advantage of more players from fewer clubs. Over recent years the concentration has increased dramatically with at various times, Bath, Leicester, Wasps and of late Saracens being a large minority of each squad. Ironically it is starting to look like this is reducing again probably as an impact of the salary cap reduction.
Another interesting and poignant fact from that match in 1972 is the brief story of the England prop, the mighty “Stack” Stevens, a Cornish farmer. Stevens was a hardened campaigner by that time playing his rugby for Penzance and Newlyn, yes really! Two years earlier he had been part of the only Lions squad to have triumphed in New Zealand (and in 1973 scored the winning try in England’s first away win against the All Blacks), but it was a sign of the times that in 1974 he announced that he could not make history with Willie John McBride’s Lions tourists to South Africa because he had to stay at home and work on the family farm in Cornwall. He would be busy haymaking while the Springboks were being beaten. Rugby in those far-off amateur days was not going to pay any bills.
On the pitch that day playing Number 8 for England and making his debut was the outrageously talented Andy Ripley. Ironically despite playing 24 times for England and being in the unbeaten Lions squad of 1974 he was ultimately probably better known for his performances in the televised Superstars. An accountant by training he never really helped himself or endeared himself to the Establishment by turning up fully changed on his motor bike just before kick-off!
So having outlined my first experience at the highest level I will now compare the 1980’s to the 2020’s. At club level there was a drinking culture although I suspect that this was already in decline from the anecdotal excesses of 1950’s and 1960’s. Now the times of Gareth Chilcott’s famous line…” I’m off for one quiet beer and then 15 noisy ones!” are left well in the past.
The era of the “one club” local boy has almost certainly also passed with Matt Perry’s retirement. Whilst not strictly local I always thought Mike Catt would at least be a one-club man however the salary cap/injury pressure, or others might say myopic coaching team did for that!
The creation of league tables, the World Cup in 1987, the European Cup, promotion and relegation from leagues has made every game now far, far more serious, and meaningful. The change of ownership of clubs from members owned to several wealthy and committed individuals has also had a profound change on the supporters, who have overnight become customers and having a product delivered to them.
This leads to the perennially discussed topic on ‘ere: are we happy to win at any cost or, having paid £50 to attend and watch do we expect a win and to be entertained? This then highlights the changed relationship and perception of the players. If in the past a player parked his tractor, or in the case of an accountant turned off his calculator and jumped in their cars to get to the ‘Rec to play against Wasps/Harlequins/Leicester/Cardiff, but were not paid, did we, the spectator, have more sympathy or expect less, as of course this was ultimately “just” their hobby.
In the new era however when they are at Farleigh Towers all day being trained by teams of experts collected from around the world, are fed very carefully, are often only expected to “last” for only 50 minutes and are paid significantly more than the average wage, albeit still much, much less than footballers, do we have a much higher level of expectation, and is that reasonable?
In addition, with the club’s revenue being so dependent on the TV receipts as the saying goes, “he who pays the piper calls the tune”, and so of course the latest owner of the commercial rights wants to have a steady flow of “product”, that awful word again, over Friday/Saturday/Sunday. How long before that is extended to Thursday and Monday until eventually some product every day of the week?
The above at first read may sound like a moan that things were better in the past and that “the game” is not “the game” anymore. You only had to observe the Irish beating the All Blacks back-to-back in the recent series, or any number of games involving Harlequins over the past two seasons, to see a new type of rugby that whilst not the game I played, is still an amazing game: just different.
Maybe an easier measure of the game’s advancement is the ball in play time, which despite the interminable scrum resets has been rising steadily for the past 20 years
There are certain things that still need improving and that means more change. Personally, I would move back to two substitutes, purely on medical grounds, and see the players body shapes change in months as the fitness experts adapt the players to lasting a full 80 minutes. This would very definitely, in my view, lead to more space as the game played through and would ease some of the pressure on the talented players.
However, whilst the game of rugby has advanced at breakneck speed over the past 27 years I believe that enough of the ethos remains so that an old duffer like me can still dream about pulling on my boots and scoring three or four tries for Bath when a couple of players forgot to get off their tractors or turn their calculators off!
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15/08/2022 08:48
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:08:29:12:20:03 by P G Tips.
Stevens and Ripley were both particular favourites of mine.
PG
On a wider note of general life, in today's world the farmer and the accountant with the calculator would need to be one and the same person.
On the cricket thread I posted the video reporting about pressures of the modern game. One person who seemed to resist all that so well was Alistair Cook who, when not playing, would work on his in laws Essex farm, a different world and an ideal escape.
I wonder if there is something in that, to do something completely different and part time like farming which balances out the pressure of pro sport. It seems to have worked for a few rugby players over the years though more out of necessity, granted.
Quote:woodpecker
Very good BSJ, Andy Ripley on Superstars that takes me back, along with Lynn Davies and Brian Jacks
Remember Brian Jacks and his squat thrusts?
Love this!
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
David Hemery was the opposite! Joe Bugner, Jackie Stewart, Tony Jacklin, Lyn Davis. Remember Kevin Keegan falling off his bike?
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:woodpecker
Very good BSJ, Andy Ripley on Superstars that takes me back, along with Lynn Davies and Brian Jacks
Remember Brian Jacks and his squat thrusts?
Love this!
Brian Hooper another one. I was always surprised that the racing drivers did pretty well
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:08:15:11:16:45 by woodpecker.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:08:15:12:25:26 by gaz59.
I understand the reason for paying players but I do wonder if the Ripley's and Stevens of this world were not happier than the modern professional. There is a world of difference between playing a game because you want to and having to play because your mortgage depends upon it.
Do I enjoy rugby more now than I did in the 70's? No, as soon as money came in the TV companies, who are not remotely interested in any sport, just want ratings, so we are then supposed to make it more exciting to encourage the non rugby spectator and you go from being a member of a rugby club to being a punter.
At the end of every game he was on the pitch playing with his mates or new contemporaries who became mates.
However by the time he was about 14 he told me that he wanted to play the highest level of rugby he could and have a proper job and career at the same time. I always thought that that was a very well balanced approach..........
There were indeed dire games of 6-3, or even 3-0, but few in the early 1970s, which was a time of mostly open attacking play (even on some pretty rough pitches).
For me the dire stuff was more mid 60s and early 80s when penalty goals tended to dominate the scoring and forwards got bogged down in "the pile up", from which the ball seldom appeared.
That 1972 game that BSJ refers to had Neary, Duckham, Old, Fielding and Hiller on the England side in addition to the 2 he names, and the likes of Jon Taylor, Mervyn Davies, Gareth Edwards, Barry John, John Bevan, Gerald Davies, JPR Williams on the Welsh team. An era of talented players, not afraid to express themselves.
PG
Quote:P G Tips
wb
There were indeed dire games of 6-3, or even 3-0, but few in the early 1970s, which was a time of mostly open attacking play (even on some pretty rough pitches).
For me the dire stuff was more mid 60s and early 80s when penalty goals tended to dominate the scoring and forwards got bogged down in "the pile up", from which the ball seldom appeared.
PG
Probably the worst game I remember was losing 6 - 3 at Mosely in the cup. So desperate to score we resorted to Dave Trick for the penalty to tie and he missed from right in front the posts 15 metres out
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
Not so. At one time he was finding it difficult to decide between playing football & cricket professionally. I’m pretty sure he had the odd game for the Essex seconds & I saw him playing, together with Geoff Hurst, in a friendly match with Essex players at Ilford. He also had something of a raw deal as a football manager. By all accounts he was a very capable manager but was used as a scapegoat on more than one occasion, Southend & Chelsea notably. Overall he was treated pretty disgracefully.
Clearly a supremely talented footballer, obviously as you say good at cricket and I suspect very good at things like tennis and golf
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
Not so. At one time he was finding it difficult to decide between playing football & cricket professionally. I’m pretty sure he had the odd game for the Essex seconds & I saw him playing, together with Geoff Hurst, in a friendly match with Essex players at Ilford. He also had something of a raw deal as a football manager. By all accounts he was a very capable manager but was used as a scapegoat on more than one occasion, Southend & Chelsea notably. Overall he was treated pretty disgracefully.
Maybe so but all too tragically his alcohol was a major problem by then and who knows just how good he would have been without it in his playing career
Quote:gaz59Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
Not so. At one time he was finding it difficult to decide between playing football & cricket professionally. I’m pretty sure he had the odd game for the Essex seconds & I saw him playing, together with Geoff Hurst, in a friendly match with Essex players at Ilford. He also had something of a raw deal as a football manager. By all accounts he was a very capable manager but was used as a scapegoat on more than one occasion, Southend & Chelsea notably. Overall he was treated pretty disgracefully.
Maybe so but all too tragically his alcohol was a major problem by then and who knows just how good he would have been without it in his playing career
Bobby Moore liked a drink but to suggest it ruined his playing career is extreme. He lifted the 1966 World Cup and died of testicular cancer having had a pretty spectacular career.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:gaz59Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
Not so. At one time he was finding it difficult to decide between playing football & cricket professionally. I’m pretty sure he had the odd game for the Essex seconds & I saw him playing, together with Geoff Hurst, in a friendly match with Essex players at Ilford. He also had something of a raw deal as a football manager. By all accounts he was a very capable manager but was used as a scapegoat on more than one occasion, Southend & Chelsea notably. Overall he was treated pretty disgracefully.
Maybe so but all too tragically his alcohol was a major problem by then and who knows just how good he would have been without it in his playing career
Bobby Moore liked a drink but to suggest it ruined his playing career is extreme. He lifted the 1966 World Cup and died of testicular cancer having had a pretty spectacular career.
didnt know he had a drinking problem, just looked it up
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:gaz59Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
Not so. At one time he was finding it difficult to decide between playing football & cricket professionally. I’m pretty sure he had the odd game for the Essex seconds & I saw him playing, together with Geoff Hurst, in a friendly match with Essex players at Ilford. He also had something of a raw deal as a football manager. By all accounts he was a very capable manager but was used as a scapegoat on more than one occasion, Southend & Chelsea notably. Overall he was treated pretty disgracefully.
Maybe so but all too tragically his alcohol was a major problem by then and who knows just how good he would have been without it in his playing career
Bobby Moore liked a drink but to suggest it ruined his playing career is extreme. He lifted the 1966 World Cup and died of testicular cancer having had a pretty spectacular career.
Never said it ruined his career. Just saying that the "Win or Lose get on the booze" attitude must have held him back from being even better than he was as a player and from recollection of the accounts I've read it would seem it was certainly affecting his judgement and relationships as a coach/manager
PG
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:shipwreckedQuote:gaz59Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
If I remember correctly dear old Bobby Moore was pretty useless at everything!
Not so. At one time he was finding it difficult to decide between playing football & cricket professionally. I’m pretty sure he had the odd game for the Essex seconds & I saw him playing, together with Geoff Hurst, in a friendly match with Essex players at Ilford. He also had something of a raw deal as a football manager. By all accounts he was a very capable manager but was used as a scapegoat on more than one occasion, Southend & Chelsea notably. Overall he was treated pretty disgracefully.
Maybe so but all too tragically his alcohol was a major problem by then and who knows just how good he would have been without it in his playing career
Bobby Moore liked a drink but to suggest it ruined his playing career is extreme. He lifted the 1966 World Cup and died of testicular cancer having had a pretty spectacular career.
didnt know he had a drinking problem, just looked it up
It was a lot more than liking a drink - one of his best drinking mates was George Best in his playing days and Jimmy Greaves called him 'the King of the Bar Stool'
I'm not knocking him, far from it. Just a sad reminder of how easy it is
Quote:shipwrecked
I'm genuinely at a total loss to understand how Bobby Moore's playing career could have been much better.
Hmm well, its not a bad CV:
Robert Frederick Chelsea Moore OBE (12 April 1941 – 24 February 1993) was an English professional footballer. He most notably played for West Ham United, captaining the club for more than ten years, and was the captain of the England national team that won the 1966 FIFA World Cup. He is widely regarded as one of the greatest defenders in the history of football, and was cited by Pelé as the greatest defender that he had ever played against.[3]
Widely regarded as West Ham's greatest ever player, Moore played over 600 games for the club during a 16-year tenure, winning the FA Cup in 1963–64 and the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup in 1964–65. During his time at the club, he won the FWA Footballer of the Year in 1964 and the West Ham Player of the Year in 1961, 1963, 1968 and 1970. In August 2008, West Ham United officially retired his number 6 shirt, 15 years after his death.[4]
Moore was made captain of England in 1964, at age 23, going on to lift the World Cup trophy in 1966. He won a total of 108 caps for his country, which at the time of his international retirement in 1973 was a national record. This record was later broken by Peter Shilton. Moore's total of 108 caps continued as a record for an outfield player until 28 March 2009, when David Beckham gained his 109th cap.[5] Moore is a member of the World Team of the 20th Century. A national team icon, a bronze statue of Moore stands at the entrance to Wembley Stadium.
A composed central defender, Moore was best known for his reading of the game and ability to anticipate opposition movements, thereby distancing himself from the image of the hard-tackling, high-jumping defender. Receiving the BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 1966, he was the first footballer to win the award and he remained the only one for a further 24 years. Moore was given an OBE in the New Year Honours List. He was made an inaugural inductee of the English Football Hall of Fame in 2002 in recognition of his impact on the English game as a player and in the same year he was named in the BBC's list of the 100 Greatest Britons
Quote:shipwrecked
I'm genuinely at a total loss to understand how Bobby Moore's playing career could have been much better.
Simply on the basis that alcohol in diet is regarded as a serious impediment to performance by those who know then surely someone like SBM could only have been a fitter, higher performing athlete given a much lower alcohol intake?
Quote:shipwrecked
I'm genuinely at a total loss to understand how Bobby Moore's playing career could have been much better.
+1
Times were different then, we need to stop judging people using today's standards and knowledge.
I seem to remember some of my best games of rugby were during trips to Wales when we were drunk most of the time. In those days everyone had an unhealthy diet of both food and drink, I doubt it affected his performance very much
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:shipwrecked
I'm genuinely at a total loss to understand how Bobby Moore's playing career could have been much better.
+1
Times were different then, we need to stop judging people using today's standards and knowledge.
Whose judging him? I completely agree with you on this particular issue so I assume you must have missed the bit when I said "I'm not knocking him, far from it ..."?
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