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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:20:14:40:37 by P G Tips.

Feels like this is going to be a big test of whether our defence has genuinely improved. James+O'Flaherty is typical of the type of combination who - last season - would turn a few minutes of decent rugby from us into a weird, knife-through-butter moment and everyone standing under the sticks looking thoroughly perplexed.

Bath Rugby team to play Sale Sharks

Team's up!

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Will Muir, 10 Piers Francis, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Lewis Boyce, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Aranos Coetzee, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Wesley White, 8 Jaco Coetzee

Impact Players

16 Tom Doughty, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Will Spencer, 20 GJ van Velze, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Richard de Carpentier

Pleased with that team! interested to see how Wesley White goes.

Sale Sharks Starting XV:

15. Luke James, 14. Tom Roebuck, 13. Sam James, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Tom O’Flaherty, 10. Robert du Preez, 9. Gus Warr; 1. Simon McIntyre, 2. Akker van der Merwe, 3. Nick Schonert, 4. Cobus Wiese, 5. Jonny Hill, 6. Jean-Luc du Preez, 7. Ben Curry (C), 8. Daniel du Preez

Replacements:

16, Ewan Ashman, 17. Ross Harrison, 18. James Harper, 19, Jono Ross, 20. Tom Curry, 21. Joe Simpson, 22. Tom Curtis, 23. Arron Reed

Interesting that Stuart is on the bench, another 10 week dispensation? A few guys in the backs are a bit unlucky to be dropped, but maybe its just rotation for playing time.

COYB!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

That backline of ours looks great

On the face of it there are two very well matched sides though I don't recognise their starting 9

Tom Doughty is in for a real test as and when he comes on

Quote:

hasta
Bath Rugby team to play Sale Sharks
Team's up!

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Will Muir, 10 Piers Francis, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Lewis Boyce, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Aranos Coetzee, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Wesley White, 8 Jaco Coetzee

Impact Players

16 Tom Doughty, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Will Spencer, 20 GJ van Velze, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Richard de Carpentier

400 mile round trip and they aren't playing my favourite player (ewan richards)- rude!

Good team with some decent impact off the bench

Quote:

hasta
Sale Sharks Starting XV:
15. Luke James, 14. Tom Roebuck, 13. Sam James, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Tom O’Flaherty, 10. Robert du Preez, 9. Gus Warr; 1. Simon McIntyre, 2. Akker van der Merwe, 3. Nick Schonert, 4. Cobus Wiese, 5. Jonny Hill, 6. Jean-Luc du Preez, 7. Ben Curry (C), 8. Daniel du Preez

Replacements:

16, Ewan Ashman, 17. Ross Harrison, 18. James Harper, 19, Jono Ross, 20. Tom Curry, 21. Joe Simpson, 22. Tom Curtis, 23. Arron Reed

With jldp at 6 that's a monster pack.

Quite well matched squads I think.

As always manu will be a handful and maybe a job for white.

Think RdC can count himself unlucky he's not a starter this week. Hopefully Big Dave can see off their massive Saffas and Hill and that home advantage will get us over the line. Tom Curry and Ross off the bench worries me a bit though!

I don't think anyone had Francis down as starting 10 over Bailey!

Quote:

BathMatt53
Interesting that Stuart is on the bench, another 10 week dispensation? A few guys in the backs are a bit unlucky to be dropped, but maybe its just rotation for playing time.
COYB!

Probably good justification as you say Matt but coko over ghw is the kind of selection that riles me a little.

Wonder if jonker injury changed our thoughts on Stuart. Verden in 23 against that huge sale pack could have been a concern.

I think franics starting is a big bonus. We know landy is quality so francis must be really impressing

I think it's very good that Francis has clarity of role. I think we all assumed he was going to be a 10/12/13 utility. Even if he signed as a 12, he must surely prefer this scenario.

from the bits I saw I'm not sure that Butt or GHW did too much wrong to be honest Charlie. I guess its a squad game these days and if Joe C is going to be away half the season with England then he may as well be playing when available.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Would prefer Gabe Hamer-Webb over Coka all day, and some others unlucky not to be retained but rotation wins out...

Adopted Players: All of the little blighters!!!

The matches that i've watched Joe C for Bath, he seems to either struggle to get involved, or whoever was playmaking struggled to involve him. If they are going to play him, I seriously hope they've worked on making him an actual, rather than just a theoretical threat.

Quote:

gaz59
That backline of ours looks great
On the face of it there are two very well matched sides though I don't recognise their starting 9

Tom Doughty is in for a real test as and when he comes on

Sorry why is Tom Doughty in for a real test?

Quote:

Optimist
The matches that i've watched Joe C for Bath, he seems to either struggle to get involved, or whoever was playmaking struggled to involve him. If they are going to play him, I seriously hope they've worked on making him an actual, rather than just a theoretical threat.

And yet, since coming to Bath, he scores a try every 130-140 minutes.
TBH though, under JvG, I'm not sure numbers 11-15 are supposed to get involved all that much.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:16:16:13:00 by Which Tyler.

[quote ollyshep]Tom Doughty is in for a real test as and when he comes on[/quote]

Sorry why is Tom Doughty in for a real test?[/quote]

This didn't strike me as a problem either, up against Ewan Ashman. The replacement back row will have a lot on their plate with Ross and T Curry though.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
from the bits I saw I'm not sure that Butt or GHW did too much wrong to be honest Charlie. I guess its a squad game these days and if Joe C is going to be away half the season with England then he may as well be playing when available.

It's a fair point and you won't run him into form by not playing him

Quote:

Which Tyler

Quote:

Optimist
The matches that i've watched Joe C for Bath, he seems to either struggle to get involved, or whoever was playmaking struggled to involve him. If they are going to play him, I seriously hope they've worked on making him an actual, rather than just a theoretical threat.

And yet, since coming to Bath, he scores a try every 130-140 minutes.
TBH though, under JvG, I'm not sure numbers 11-15 are supposed to get involved all that much.

Suspect we'll see him a bit at first receiver and decoy runner.

Joe C with confidence is a joy to behold. He looked a bit apprehensive at times for a while so I hope JvG can coax it out of him.

Quote:

The Bear
Joe C with confidence is a joy to behold. He looked a bit apprehensive at times for a while so I hope JvG can coax it out of him.

Agreed, I think the biggest problem with Joe has been that he doesn't trust his body not to break, so he doesn't go flat out, doesn't try to step, doesn't try to take contact on his own terms.
If he trust his body to do what he tells it to (and he's put the off-field problems behind him, now they seem to be sorted) then I think we'll see him with a smile on his face... putting and fear into his opponents.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD

Quote:

Optimist
The matches that i've watched Joe C for Bath, he seems to either struggle to get involved, or whoever was playmaking struggled to involve him. If they are going to play him, I seriously hope they've worked on making him an actual, rather than just a theoretical threat.

The handful of times we saw him last season he seemed to have lost some pace, hopefully that is no longer the case.

Sir today is Christophe Ridley .......59th premiership game , my prediction is a a win for Bath by 2/5 points and possibly 2/3 cards !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

He does seem to lack that sort of combative competitiveness. However I did think he played pretty well for England.

Big call to have a 6:2 split on the bench when 3 of the backline players took no part in the warmup games.

Quote:

by
Big call to have a 6:2 split on the bench when 3 of the backline players took no part in the warmup games.

Bayliss could probably play in the backs!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Tuilagi v Redpath doesn't seem to be a fair contest and is a worry for me. My adopted player (JoCo) has been injured or out of form for a couple of seasons, I wonder if he could switch to first centre when we defend off set pieces? Difficult to call today but I think it will be 10 man rugby plan and much better defence to squeeze the life out of Sale...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

Clarkey3k
Tuilagi v Redpath doesn't seem to be a fair contest and is a worry for me. My adopted player (JoCo) has been injured or out of form for a couple of seasons, I wonder if he could switch to first centre when we defend off set pieces? Difficult to call today but I think it will be 10 man rugby plan and much better defence to squeeze the life out of Sale...

I agree Tuilagi v Redpath isn't a fair contest. Redpath jinks and runs faster than Tuilagi.

Redpath is an international 12 I'm sure he will be fine.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
Redpath is an international 12 I'm sure he will be fine.

Quite. Tackling is not an area I'd ever worry about with Redpath, quite the opposite!

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

by
Big call to have a 6:2 split on the bench when 3 of the backline players took no part in the warmup games.

Bayliss could probably play in the backs!

Maybe White as well based on the footage of him playing 7s

Bookies favour Sale but only just. To close to call for me...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Not a good start: Sale try on 2 mins, converted; Bath missed penalty n 8 mins; Schonert red card for high tackle on Attwood; Bath penalty hits post; Sale knock on while catching it; Bath win penalty from scrum; converted!

3 v 7

Sale penalty

3 v 10

[www.bathrugby.com] - Match Centre if you're not at the match

Penalty Bath

6 v 10

Sale try; Ben Spencer receiving treatment; off for HIA; converted

6 v 17

Silliest 30 seconds of rugby from a player (since Thursday and Foley for Oz) from JCok who fumbles a restart then knocks out his team’s captain and best player.

Spencer fails HIA but returns to pitch side

Sale penalty

6 v 20

Bath force another Sale lineout knock on to gain scrum

Sorry to say nothing changes.

Penalty after penalty conceeded. Side to side coughing it up.

So poor. Plenty of seats available to watch this shambles.

Sale gain penalty from scrum; converted

6 v 23

Depressing, I really need to cancel by BT Sport contract.

HT

6 v 23

Really really disappointing first half

Have we gone back in time 6 months? This is pathetic.

We lack the most basic skills. Pass, catch, run.

No idea how to move the ball quickly, break the line, run support lines. Our back line is sitting so deep it’s unbelievable, no wonder we can’t score a try. They lose 10m immediately and still operate under pressure because the ball is so slow.

Apart from a couple of individual flashes that was a depressingly incoherent half from us. Fair play to Sale for taking their chances with simple direct rugby. The pitch looks immaculate though…so that’s something.

Jaco injured at the end of the half too. Scrum was going well, but du Preez’s looked like they were playing against under14s in the rucks at the end of the half.

Try JCok by passing, running, supporting. Much better.

JvG may have had a word. More please.

13 v 23

TdG try!! Converted.

20 v 30

Not much sign of beef.

More like chicken.

Tofu and essence of cow

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:17:16:56:55 by Which Tyler.

Why precisely is Piers Francis starting?

Another 37 points conceded.

Dismal. So much for a new dawn. I wasn’t expecting a revolution, but had hoped we might have at least been competitive against 13 men…

Nothing for Bath. Got what was deserved.

Muir aside not good enough from all of them.

Gave up season ticket 6 years ago after 25 years .

More transition? No just a poorly run club.

As bad as anything we saw last season. Wasn’t expecting a revolution overnight but hoped for better than that. Pathetic.

Sale were good. Tough pack. Annoying scrum half. O’Flaherty ridiculously talented and dangerous. I’ve nothing to say about us, other than De Charp played well when he came on.

Sale played very well - I thought.

We had nothing to counter their backrow. It was as though we were a player short as Sale backrow was everywhere.

It’s the hope that kills you, isn’t it? Season after season, after season…

Men against boys, our back row was anonymous , surely against 13 you put width on the ball ?

That was utterly hopeless. Despite the influx of coaches there was absolutely no improvement in defence, attack or the forwards. They begun the match with hang dog expressions & never looked up for the game whereas Sale were highly motivated & full of energy. Everything we did was shoddy & seemed to be in slow motion. Last season we conceded several tries when down to 13 men & most accepted it as an excuse. Sale showed us how to do it with positive defence & when attacking our line succeeded each time. We looked like a championship side, and a lowly one at that, which is probably where we should be playing. At this stage it’s difficult to see us winning a single game.

Early days so I'm trying to be philosophical but so poor and zero ambition. Set piece decent and the 2 tries came from some good 'off the cuff' rugby but otherwise we look so narrow and predictable. The futile, time-consuming bashing of the line when they were down to 13 and we needed a hateful of points said it all. Joe C on his own out wide as a maul rumbled nowhere. If Spencer's out for Friday the reserve scrum half, Schreuder(?) will need to work on his box kicks because they've clearly been told to do nothing else and his were way too deep. Taking Sale on in an arm wrestle with no attacking game seems pretty dumb to me and once we were chasing keeping Francis at FH seemed strange to me. . Front 5, Will M and Joe C in patches were good and RDC when he came on.

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Sir today is Christophe Ridley .......59th premiership game , my prediction is a a win for Bath by 2/5 points and possibly 2/3 cards !

Oh dear ……..got that wrong apart from 2 cards and a load of Jokers !!

Sadly, as others have said nothing much has changed .

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

I wouldn’t be too harsh. Sounds like you played well last week.
We at Sale are a different team this season. That’s probably the best we’ve attacked in 4 seasons. If we carry on like that with Rafi and Ford to come we will be title contenders.

Oh well, I’m sure we trained well all week.

Sale played very well. That being said... We conceded thirty points to 14 men and spent the whole game looking like we had no idea what do when we had the ball.

Scrum was good.
De Carpentier was decent, as was Muir.

Quote:

hasta
Sale played very well. That being said... We conceded thirty points to 14 men and spent the whole game looking like we had no idea what do when we had the ball.

This.

I fear that we aren't going to pick up many wins this season unless something improves sharpish.

The only slight reason for optimism is that Wasps are the next game and they look poor too.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:17:19:09:08 by BathMatt53.

Fans in my block were talking up a Bring back Hoops campaign. Thank the lord for gallows humour. My Cheshire club had a handsome win over local rivals Wilmslow today so not all bad today. My new Bath shirt attracted admiration before KO...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Very poor. Our first home game but no energy from the team apart from a few. Why not hold the ball when you are playing against 14 and for 10 mins 13. Not a very intelligent performance and Maddog has his work cut out because our half backs were well marshalled by them.

As soon as I saw the red card, I knew we were going to lose the game. Though I did expect it to be closer.

[www.somersetlive.co.uk] - Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse

Quote:

by
As soon as I saw the red card, I knew we were going to lose the game. Though I did expect it to be closer.

True, it’s as though the whole mindset changed for Bath with the red card ‘ a win is on the cards chaps no need to worry ‘ !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

What a load of rubbish.

Quote:

CoochieCoo
Very poor. Our first home game but no energy from the team apart from a few. Why not hold the ball when you are playing against 14 and for 10 mins 13. Not a very intelligent performance and Maddog has his work cut out because our half backs were well marshalled by them.

I thought the tactic of kicking cross field to your marked winger when you have a 2 man advantage must have been some work or rugby genius I was unaware of. Alas no, just mindless rugby stupidity.

Lovely day in the sun though, just spoiled by Baths performance and the decision to switch out Gem for Tribute. The demise of Bath Ales at Bath rugby … the beginning of the end.

Back home now, and here are my observations on how we played (I will mention at this point that Sale were by far the better team and deserved the win):

Front Row

The most positive part of our game was the front row. For the first time in a while (touch wood) we seem to have at least 2 sets of props who can hold their own (or even dominate) in the scrum. Felt like we should have recognised early on that we had the edge in this department and used it as a proper weapon. In the end the series of scrums on the Sale line at the end of the game came too late for us to convert that dominance into a comeback.


Back Row

Pretty much invisible compared to Sale’s equivalents. Given the conservative style the backs seemed to be going with, we needed to have at least parity on the gain line. Both White and Bayliss are lightweight by modern standards, and whilst Coetzee carried ok in traffic (before what looked like a nasty injury), they were totally outmuscled when confronted with 2 Du Preez’s and Ben Curry. To me our starting back row looked best suited to a fast paced and open game plan, where they could be used in the wide channels, look for offloads and make the most of their mobility. Instead they seemed to be tasked with running into brick walls, and made very little impact. Strange selection choice unless they were the only fit back rowers available. Felt like the game to have a lock on the flank given the physicality Sale played with. Was one of those games where the opposition’s back rowers were so conspicuous in everything good that they did, and I hardly noticed a single positive contribution from ours.


Half backs

Observed that we were constantly rotating who was standing at first receiver, with Francis, Joseph, Redpath and De Glanville all popping up there. Seemed to indicate to me that the first receiver was mostly just being used as another set of hands to shift the ball down the backline, as opposed to anything more intricate. Points towards a pretty conservative attack style (which roughly fits with Van Graan’s reputation), however I can only see this working with a dominant (or at least competitive) pack, as we weren’t winning the gain line battle and the breakdown was a mess. Felt like Bailey should have been brought on far earlier when it became apparent that Sale were still physically dominating us with 14 players, in my mind he’s more creative than Francis, and offers a better running threat which would’ve posed Sale’s defence different questions. In the end Francis seemed only capable of passing along the backline, or attempting cross field kicks, neither of which proved effective. Despite the good reviews last week, looked a lot like a 12 filling in at 10 to me.

At 9, losing Spencer was clearly a big blow. From what I saw of Schreuder, he again seems to fit the conservative, box kicking mould of scrum half, however his kicking was consistently too long and invited the likes of O’Flaherty to run onto us and cause huge problems. Given Spencer could be on the sidelines for a few weeks, it looks like Schreuder will be starting for a few games, however it feels like he won’t offer nearly as much in attack as our captain (although most scrum halves wouldn’t be to be fair).


Young Players

The fact that not many of our impressive youngsters have had many minutes in the first 2 games is slightly puzzling. Van Graan mentioned that when he came in everyone started with a clean slate and that he would not let age, experience, reputation, etc affect his judgement. So unless the likes of Bailey, Ojomoh and Richards have been awful in training, it’s difficult to understand why they haven’t been used more. It seemed pretty clear that our gameplan was getting totally nullified by Sale, despite them being a man down, so it felt like the team was screaming for a point of difference to come on and try to unlock our attack. Ojomoh and Richards certainly have game breaking qualities, it’s unclear why they’re getting overlooked.


So to sum up, as much as I was hoping that the change in management would lead to a quick change in fortunes, it seems like the issues run deeper, and it may be a while before we turn the corner. It’s worth noting that Sale were incredibly physical today, and we couldn’t really compete on that front, thus scuppering our gameplan. The red card seemed to crystalise their style of play for them, whereas we weren’t able to play heads up rugby to take advantage of our extra man. Our tactics may fare better against teams battling with us towards the lower half of the table, but we need to start winning our collisions first, and it’s unclear at this point whether we have the muscle in the pack to achieve this.

I have just received an email from the club asking me to complete a short 5 minute survey about my experience at the game today , I wonder what to say ?

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

boozeboozebooze
Back home now, and here are my observations on how we played (I will mention at this point that Sale were by far the better team and deserved the win):

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD

Johann “The first 40 was not good enough “. And the second 40 ? Here

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

I'd ignore it. I get that email every game. Once, OK, a bit of feedback on minor incidentals, but as I put on the last 3 replies, playing decent(ish) rugby is all that matters, although Thatcher's Dry might make the turgid stuff inflicted upon us more tolerable.

Having sat through that I have a feeling of shock on how bad Bath were. Didn’t think we could get any worse than last season, but today proved me wrong. Thrashed by an average team with 14 players for most of the game.

Out thought, our muscled and out worked. Sale just wanted it more and we’re up for it from the first minute. Bath were lethargic and lacklustre from the off.

Plan A wasn’t working so we carried on with plan A, what were our coaches doing?

Don’t agree that they were an average team. They sacrificed a back to send on another forward and as a result kept their dominance over our forwards for the whole game. We were out played in the pack, the backs, their speed and most of all their energy. Not an average team in my book!

Quote:

Beergoggles
and the decision to switch out Gem for Tribute. The demise of Bath Ales at Bath rugby … the beginning of the end.

To be fair the Gem at the Rec tasted like no Gem (or indeed beer) anywhere else in the world...and not in a good way.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

CoochieCoo
Don’t agree that they were an average team. They sacrificed a back to send on another forward and as a result kept their dominance over our forwards for the whole game. We were out played in the pack, the backs, their speed and most of all their energy. Not an average team in my book!

IMO they are nothing special, they are just well coached and make the most of what they have.

Bath are still awful in pretty much every department, which stuns me. Francis also proved today that he is not a 10. Might as well get Orlando back in to continue his development as we’re clearly destined for bottom 3 again anyway.

If we had any leadership on the pitch someone would have changed the game plan and used the acres of space that everyone in the crowd could see.

Quote:

CoochieCoo
Don’t agree that they were an average team. They sacrificed a back to send on another forward and as a result kept their dominance over our forwards for the whole game. We were out played in the pack, the backs, their speed and most of all their energy. Not an average team in my book!

Agree that Sale were good but think our forwards matched them in the set piece and the inevitable boring collisions. Sale's forwards were far more dynamic though and the team were collectively far more polished and made fewer errors, which is pretty much par for the course. Our discipline was typically poor too. Any thoughts on the red card? I couldn't see the big screen very well but seemed a bit harsh to me as Schoenert(?) seemed to have a split second to react and didn't quite get low enough. The crowd near me didn't even bother with the theatrical mock outrage, but as I said, I've only seen the incident once.

Agree eith all the frustration above but what really grates me after today was decision making and tempo. A red card in the 22 we kick sticks. EVERY other team in the league would of gone for the jugular and gone for the try .We then take 10 minutes resetting scrums in the second half. They go to 13 and we waste more time insisting on scrums. We have a long way to go....

adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.

Was at the match today.

I can normally muster some positives even in dire circumstances.

Rdc looked like he had played rugby before. Muir hasn't yet had all natural ability coached out of him.

That's about the best I can manage.

This is why I wasn't cheerful after a plucky defeat against an average bris. Losing is a habit, zero confidence kills you.

Genuinely quite shocked by how inept in every way that was (been watching us for nearly 40 yrs so I take some shocking). I take for granted basics like passing and catching- how naive.

Nice still, sunny day and the pitch looked like a billiard table. Perfect conditions for a decent rugby team. Well done sale, everything we weren't, they have good reason to be optimistic for the season.

Absolutely numb after that one - the worst day I’ve ever had at the Rec.

Meanwhile in Wales, Taulupe, by all accounts, pulled up trees.

Seriously …. what is wrong with this club?

Despite the fact that this is largely a new squad and the coaching team have been overhauled, these failing are all too familiar. Receiving kick-offs, compounding penalties, missed tackles - these aren't a last-season failure these are an age-old story.

It concerns me that we have limited our gameplan to be 'harder to beat' and yet persist with the kind of mistakes that will kill that gameplan.

I'm not sure there is enough time to focus on these errors in training but how are we going to do anything slightly more 'advanced' if we can't even catch a kick off?

First things first... I'd quite honestly prefer that we didn't give every opposition team a TBP - it's ridiculous. It gives the impression we see these extra points as meaningless.

Secondly, I think others above have said. These are persistent issues. The first creeping doubt I'm having with JvG is that he has identified and rectified issues that were clearly visible on the tape over the last 2/3 years. Receiving kick offs has been a long-running farce.

Thirdly, we seem to have stripped our style of play right back to the point where we can't even rely on individual brilliance to mask our lack of fundamentals. The back line moves were so stilted and painful to watch that Sale could basically camp in the receivers face.

Just watched the game and it was eerily familiar. I had to check the calendar to see if this was a game from last season I'd put on by mistake.

We may have a new coaching team and about a million new players but we still play completely brain-dead rugby. 74 minutes against 14 men and we get right royally spanked. We were third best after Sale and daylight for the whole match and that's just embarrassing. Plus we manage to sideline our skipper, fulcrum and best player by ourselves and our new-hope carrying 8 is broken. Again.

Yes, Sale are a good side but they cannot have believed their luck. They have 2 of the best poaching 7s in the country and we spend the entire game sending one-out runners into them. Taking candy from babies would have been more difficult for the Curry brothers. From a spectator's perspective, it was just pitiful.

This will have given JvG an all-to-accurate picture of the job he's taken on. I hope he's up to it.

My MotM - Horse. Yet again (for the umpteenth time over the last year) the only player in BBW on the pitch who looked like he actually knew what he was doing.

PS Thank the gods there's no relegation this season.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:18:00:45:53 by joethefanatic.

V good summary Joe.

Our tactics were one out 17 stone runners into 19 stone defencers who love tackling, or isolated pick and go into world class jackalers. It was beyond dim.

Kick off set the tone. We were stunned someone innovated, JJ didn't really fancy putting his head where it hurt, they are on the front foot and 7 nil up soon after.

In perfect conditions I think giving the ball in space to a player who consistently beats the first 2 men and causes absolute havoc (horse) should have been within our skillset and thinking.

Felt like tdg is under instruction to not try anything with any element of risk even in glorious weather on a billiard table against 13/14 men.

I found myself not caring about reffing decisions when the scrum was camped on their line as unless they went down to about 11 men I had zero confidence we could get the required 3 scores in 15 mins. The prior 65 mins had left me utterly dejected.

The biggest worry as someone else has hinted at is one would have thought that the new coaches would have have watched the debacles of last season & carried out a root & branch assessment of what needed addressing - everything - but there’s no sign that anything has. I always thought if we were going to succeed we had to win our first match & display our changed persona. Quite the reverse. We threw away the chance to win against Bristol & it seems the mental pressure of turning up yesterday & showing what they can do was far too much for our timid players. I don’t know how you address that now. It needs some really forceful personalities amongst the coaches and players, like the Currys. I fear that we don’t have them. We also seem to have gained a few players who are not physically up for rigours of the Premiership.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:18:08:12:57 by Bath Hammer.

So much of yesterday was about a complete lack of leadership: players playing rugby by numbers and failing again and again to understand the plan wasn’t working. No one seemed able or prepared to offer a different idea.

Too often our backs were stacked with props and second rows, telegraphing our gameplan of run, ruck, let the halfbacks kick, repeat. We have devastating runners on both wings, so why in the name of twelve types of quick drying cement didn’t we get the ball to them?

It really was about as bad as we’ve been in many a long year.

JvG: earn your corn and give us some hope.

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joethefanatic
PS Thank the gods there's no relegation this season.

I disagree with this, Bath are basically a championship outfit playing in a league they are not competitive.

I never want to see Bath relegated, but right now the club is a shambles and we’d at least be competitive in the championship.

I had hoped JvG was the messiah, sadly he isn’t.

We are also suffering from poor recruitment, Sale have Ford (albeit injured) and a very good backup 10 playing yesterday. We couldn’t find a top quality 10 to work with Bailey, why?

We couldn’t find a quality 8 with the attributes of Nathan Hughes who really made a difference last season, why?

Quote:

OutsideBath

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joethefanatic
PS Thank the gods there's no relegation this season.

I disagree with this, Bath are basically a championship outfit playing in a league they are not competitive.

I never want to see Bath relegated, but right now the club is a shambles and we’d at least be competitive in the championship.

I had hoped JvG was the messiah, sadly he isn’t.

We are also suffering from poor recruitment, Sale have Ford (albeit injured) and a very good backup 10 playing yesterday. We couldn’t find a top quality 10 to work with Bailey, why?

We couldn’t find a quality 8 with the attributes of Nathan Hughes who really made a difference last season, why?

Exactly.

They swapped out red carded prop for a winger - very normal.
We then tried to go around them, getting isolated in wide areas and got out-rucked and handled easily by their very mobile back row (already mentioned above).
One thing we were actually winning was aerial battles... But only in defence, as we didn't test their depleted backfield once with a high ball, or add pressure through territorial kicking. Why?! We have very able aerial threats in JJ, Muir, TDG...
Static, stupid tactics. Rigid. Zero adaptability.

Quote:

OutsideBath
I disagree with this, Bath are basically a championship outfit playing in a league they are not competitive.
I never want to see Bath relegated, but right now the club is a shambles and we’d at least be competitive in the championship.

On top of which, I will never support ring fencing, and a lack of relegation - even though it would have meant we were relegated last season - we deserved to be.

Quote:

OutsideBath
We are also suffering from poor recruitment, Sale have Ford (albeit injured) and a very good backup 10 playing yesterday. We couldn’t find a top quality 10 to work with Bailey, why?

Or any actual FH - one with experience playing there regularly, who can actually manage a game. I'm not convinced JvG actually sees much value in players managing a game and making decisions on the hoof.
How many times yesterday did we pass out to Bayliss in his dummy position - static, isolated and with 3 defenders practically on top of him? no player should be making that call, and if a SH keeps doing so, then the FH should be giving him a right bollocking and telling him in no uncertain terms not to do it again.
But we didn't have a FH, just 3 centres.

Yes, yes, I know - according to some here, no FHs were both available and wanting to come to Bath, they'd literally rather be unemployed than come here. Personally, I don't believe that, I think JvG just doesn't think that FH is a specialist position.

Quote:

OutsideBath
We couldn’t find a quality 8 with the attributes of Nathan Hughes who really made a difference last season, why?

I'm less critical on that - there aren't many players like Nathan Hughes, and especially not many like Nathan Hughes on one of his barnstorming days - it's not like every club has one.
My Saffa friends still think that signing Jaco Coetzee was a bit of a coup for us - we just keep breaking him, rather than seeing why.
Besides, it's not like our backrow is understaffed.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:18:09:16:22 by Which Tyler.

Was thinking the same thing re Nathan Hughes yesterday. The one player who's had a massive impact, although re recruitment getting Dave Atwood back is a big plus. JVG hasn't been here anywhere near long enough to be judged yet and I'm sure we will improve but the complete lack of a change in how we played yesterday when our very dull plan A was predictably failing is worrying. You'd like to think the players could see that, but I'd certainly expect the coaches to. Orlando needed to be given a chance much earlier to get the backs moving. Perhaps the 6-2 split left JVG worried an injury to a back would cause problems, but then I wouldn't have such a split anyway-almost as if outside backs don't really feature in our game plan...

It was clear from the radio commentary that we were either stifled by the game plan or no leaders to take stock of what was happening on the pitch and change the game plan accordingly. 10mins of scrums to get a yellow was great but not when there is 20mins left on the clock and you’re three scores down. But the commentators (Darren Allinson one of them) were keen to point out that we had huge space out wide and deadly finishers in Hoss, JCo and TdG but never used them in that space, preferring to keep it tight. Following a clown car of errors (handling, pens) and play is in our 22 and Sale are scoring.

How, with lots of different personnel this season are we picking up where we left off last season?

How many months do we think Maddog will last? Worrying echoes of Williams last season.

A huge positive seems to be our front five, noting the injuries, but that can’t be our only weapon.

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Rawce
But the commentators (Darren Allinson one of them) were keen to point out that we had huge space out wide

The only people in the stadium not to notice the space out wide all game were the coaches and players. Where on earth are the leaders in the Bath setup?

All we did was run into the big Sale pack all game which made it easy for them, although I guess the concern was if we passed it out wide the ball would just be dropped anyway.

Get the basics right and we win yesterday, as it stands Bath are the team that everyone wants to play for a nice easy stroll in the park.

TRP recorded yesterday's attendance at c11.4k which strikes me as a low number for our first home game of the season. Sale don't bring many with them either but that's nearly 3k below capacity and won't help the commercial side. A pal of mine paid £56.50 as a walk up spectator yesterday, I doubt he'll do it again.

Finally to Christophe Ridley. My heart always sinks when he's Sir. The game was just stop/start yesterday and any life in it was sucked out as time went on. A very sombre mood at the end and on the bus home...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Has anyone seen video interviews with coaches or players explaining this outcome? I know we got in a bit of a rut with them last year, but there is something about sharing the disappointment and/or frustration of losing with the fans.

Rather shocked that Bath seem to have played so badly (from all the comments above). A home match, nice weather, lots of hopeful positive support. So are we back to the former ghastly lack of an intelligent game plan and training all week? Tbh, I am astonished at the result, the scoreline, not that they lost.

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dcsh
Has anyone seen video interviews with coaches or players explaining this outcome? I know we got in a bit of a rut with them last year, but there is something about sharing the disappointment and/or frustration of losing with the fans.

Not seen any video, but there are comments in Somerset Live. At least he hasn't trotted out the "we trained well mantra" that was used last season.

Speaking after the match, he said: “It's pretty simple; we have to be better. You won't get any excuses today or throughout the season.

“It’s not possible in a game of rugby going around people without mauling or stopping the maul, without facing a kicking game.

“I learned a lot from individuals and the team today, and like I have said from the start it's only game two.”

The South African spoke frankly on his side’s shortcomings between the white lines, as they failed to secure a victory in spite of playing the vast majority of the game with an extra man.

He said: “Playing against 14 is almost more difficult than playing against 15.

“The fact is they stayed with the eight forwards and they're incredibly powerful as you saw in the mauls.

“Look at their back 5 on any day, that's difficult to stop because they played a forward-orientated game.

“We tried to play more but got dominated in the contact. Accuracy was not good enough today, and that happens when you get beat in the collisions.

“It's game two on our journey so that's a good lesson, and we're gonna learn a few more in the year."

Despite ultimately finishing the game on the losing side, when in reality they should have convincingly won, van Graan insisted there are positives to take from the defeat.

“There was some really good stuff; we had five minutes on the goal line where we got multiple penalties from the scrum. We score there in a different game but unfortunately we didn't.”

The period the Bath Head of Rugby speaks of was a near 10-minute span in which the host’s scrum was re-arranged and infringed upon by Sale repeatedly as referee Ridley took a lenient stance on the visiting pack’s wrongdoings.

Van Graan took a characteristically lax stance on the controversial set pieces, preferring to take a constructive stance.

“It could’ve been a yellow card and a penalty try which would’ve swung the game, so I’ll take that as a positive. The ref made his decision, so we’ll go and review that, but from my side we have to go and improve our performance.

To add insult to injury captain Ben Spencer and Jaco Coetzee both left proceedings early today, with a failed HIA and an ankle injury respectively ruling them out of the remaining minutes.

The pair join a hefty injury list, with fitness issues once again plaguing the Blue, Black and White.

"It's massive, the fact that two starting internationals are gone 10 mins into the season when as a coach coming in you bank on those players is difficult.

“We have lost Beno (Obano), Sam (Underhill) and Chris (Cloete) and today we lost Jaco Coetzee, it’s very concerning for me in terms of the power in the pack.”

The South Africa finished by re-iterating the overall message of hope, development and honesty, with Bath still needing to develop as they transition into the van Graan era.

“By no way am I going to make an excuse. I like to think over time, we’ll improve, because you can see where Alex Sanderson has come with Sale in the last year. We will get there, but it’s gonna take time.”[i][/i]

Thanks OB

I think there is a grace period for JvG to say that the performance wasn’t good enough and that he is still learning about players. Not sure how long that is, but hopefully we’ll see improvements soon.

Interesting that he says no excuses .... then says its really tough playing against 14 men cos they keot 8 in the pack (wow)....and we lost some players relatively early....and we got some injuries last week.

He needs to realise v quickly that the prem is brutal and he needs to genuinely accept there are no excuses otherwise its going to be another looong season

Not impressed but as you say he deserves a grace period and i wont fully judge him until after a full season. My concern is he won't have us playing pretty rugby, that's fine for most Inc me if its winning rugby..... if its not then he is in big trouble.

Wasps are 2 losses from two. Absolutely no reason why we can't beat them. I will start getting v concerned if we don't. If we do win then confidence builds and who knows.... but that yest was beyond dreadful , utterly embarrassing, and he needs to be honest about that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:18:14:10:56 by charlieboa.

Annie, there definitely was a gameplan: you could see what they were trying to achieve. The trouble being it very quickly unravelled and the team seemed unable to realise it.

Read all the analysis and comments, which I am sure are all pertinent, and thanks for them. It seems to me that the issues are many and varied. It seems like we are heading for a repetition of last year's debacle, and very little has changed despite all the personnel movement. I firmly believe Bath's problems are deeply rooted and go back a very long way. The club has slowly declined over 20 years and no-one has had the cojones to tackle the lack of leadership, vision, and desire necessary to stop the club being gradually overtaken by all around it. By now we should not be in this league, but somehow those in charge still believe Bath is a top club, we are frankly irrelevant in competitions.

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charlieboa
Not impressed but as you say he deserves a grace period and i wont fully judge him until after a full season. My concern is he won't have us playing pretty rugby, that's fine for most Inc me if its winning rugby..... if its not then he is in big trouble.
Wasps are 2 losses from two. Absolutely no reason why we can't beat them. I will start getting v concerned if we don't. If we do win then confidence builds and who knows.... but that yest was beyond dreadful , utterly embarrassing, and he needs to be honest about that.

Didn't expect to see Bath in the top 8 this season as our squad just isn't good enough, however I did expect to see improvements from last season. From my seat there was absolutely no improvement at all and in fact we looked worse (didn't lose to 14 men last season either). We are still absolutely clueless, lack speed/intensity and quite frankly the body language of the players seemed resigned to losing after their first try. That level of performance doesn't beat any team in the PL so highly unlikely we will get a win against Wasps.

Just watched Quins/Sarries and it restored my faith that rugby can be entertaining, can only look on in envy at their squads, tactics and coaching.

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Clarkey3k
Finally to Christophe Ridley. My heart always sinks when he's Sir. The game was just stop/start yesterday and any life in it was sucked out as time went on. A very sombre mood at the end and on the bus home...

There were 28 penalties in our match yesterday, 16 against us and 12 v Sale. The biggest total in any of the 5 games played yesterday. Last week the highest penalty count from the four matches reported in TRP was Exeter v Tigers at 22 also reffed by Ridley...

Meanwhile even Worcester summoned enough pride to put 3 tries on Exeter. I wonder what would happen to our lot of Bruce were to put the club up for sale?

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Optimist
Meanwhile even Worcester summoned enough pride to put 3 tries on Exeter. I wonder what would happen to our lot of Bruce were to put the club up for sale?

I agree Worcester for all their troubles had more invention, more ambition and more spirit than Bath.

Quote:

Optimist
Meanwhile even Worcester summoned enough pride to put 3 tries on Exeter. I wonder what would happen to our lot of Bruce were to put the club up for sale?

I personally think that it would get snapped up no problem.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

Optimist
Meanwhile even Worcester summoned enough pride to put 3 tries on Exeter. I wonder what would happen to our lot of Bruce were to put the club up for sale?

Pretty sure Dallaglio just said that 5 Premiership clubs where for sale, weren’t there rumours about Bruce having had enough earlier in the year??

James Dyson's supposed net worth is 7.3 billion USD. Surely if BC was open to offers Dyson could, figuratively speaking, find the necessary cash from behind the sofa?

I've asked PRTV for my fiver back coz I'm sure i was watching a repeat from last season

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BathMatt53

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Optimist
Meanwhile even Worcester summoned enough pride to put 3 tries on Exeter. I wonder what would happen to our lot of Bruce were to put the club up for sale?

I personally think that it would get snapped up no problem.

What’s the upside for a potential new owner?

Club going nowhere on the pitch, new stadium not even at the planning stage, possible relegation next season.

Not too many plus points for anyone wanting to buy the club apart from perhaps hard core loyal season ticket holders.

Quote:

annie blackthorn
Rather shocked that Bath seem to have played so badly (from all the comments above). A home match, nice weather, lots of hopeful positive support. So are we back to the former ghastly lack of an intelligent game plan and training all week? Tbh, I am astonished at the result, the scoreline, not that they lost.

You might now understand why many of us were less than optimistic after last week’s encounter!

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Optimist
Meanwhile even Worcester summoned enough pride to put 3 tries on Exeter. I wonder what would happen to our lot of Bruce were to put the club up for sale?

I personally think that it would get snapped up no problem.

What’s the upside for a potential new owner?

Club going nowhere on the pitch, new stadium not even at the planning stage, possible relegation next season.

Not too many plus points for anyone wanting to buy the club apart from perhaps hard core loyal season ticket holders.

Maybe, Dyson buying Bath Rugby Club would be the equivalent of you and I buying a pint of beer, or, perhaps more realistically, a new TV?

Quote:

TomReagan
James Dyson's supposed net worth is 7.3 billion USD. Surely if BC was open to offers Dyson could, figuratively speaking, find the necessary cash from behind the sofa?

Why would he even consider it? No assets, poor management, and players without leadership.

At the end of the day you can't win if you don't score points and you can't score points if you don't have the ball. We aren't competitive enough at the breakdown. I've been saying that for a few seasons now. Underhill is a brilliant tackler who is always going to get a lot of injuries. He isn't a turnover master. Jaco Coetzee is a turnover master but is being played at 8 rather than on the flank, because he is the best we have got there. That means he is spending a lot of time out wide supporting the back three and isn't getting turnover opportunities at the breakdown. He is carrying well but also seems injury prone going into contact. Cloete is a turnover specialist but got injured 15 minutes into his Bath career. We don't have anybody else who specialises in that job. So we have lost our best tackler and our best turnover specialists in the back row in the first two games of the season. This does not bode well.

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Bath Hammer

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annie blackthorn
Rather shocked that Bath seem to have played so badly (from all the comments above). A home match, nice weather, lots of hopeful positive support. So are we back to the former ghastly lack of an intelligent game plan and training all week? Tbh, I am astonished at the result, the scoreline, not that they lost.

You might now understand why many of us were less than optimistic after last week’s encounter!

Obviously the injuries are unlucky, but what’s most concerning is JvG and his team haven’t had any positive impact on the pitch whatsoever.

Quote:

WimborneBath

Quote:

TomReagan
James Dyson's supposed net worth is 7.3 billion USD. Surely if BC was open to offers Dyson could, figuratively speaking, find the necessary cash from behind the sofa?

Why would he even consider it? No assets, poor management, and players without leadership.

If I had £20 mill I'd buy the club in a flash if it was available (In fact when those stupidly large Euro Millions jackpots come about I often waste my time hypothetically allocating £100 mill in various directions). No one buys a rugby club to make money so the lack of assets doesn't matter and we won't be rubbish for ever.

Wimborne Bath +1

Bath still think they are a force in the premiership, but the reality is we are a lower table club and have been for many years. We have gradually, but consistently, declined into the lower reaches of the table and it is a great shame relegation has not forced the current owner to really wake up to the situation, or maybe he just doesn't know what to do?

At half time I thought we were brain dead in the way we played against 14 men and expected JvG to change the way we played to stretch Sale as much as possible, but no, same old tactics, same old rubbish. If JvG thinks referees give easy penalty tries from a scrum 5 yards out he needs to think again, especially with 14 minutes to go and three scores necessary.

Muir is always reliable and looks dangerous, but in all very, very disappointing, well played Sale and their coaching team, who showed up just how poor we were. Out of interest, do we ever train on how to play against 13 or 14 men, is keeping it tight and playing forward dominated rugby really the way the coaches think we should play?

Exactly wb. It was not the result or the score that hurt the most at 1700 yesterday but the knowledge that Bath failed to involve their brain cells.

That match was winnable, even with 20 to go, with the right leadership.

PG

A couple of years back I asked Hooper whether the team practices with a man or two up. He looked at me with a puzzled expression on his face and said no. I cannot see any change in Bath performance to suggest JvG does anything different.

Early days for JVG and I thought the quote above (elsewhere) from him after the game reflected well on him. Its a bit of a thankless task giving those comments after a loss so anything that deviates from "we trained well all week/we will take our learnings" is a plus IMO.

If you are so eager for Spencer not to play for you that you've resulted to biffing him up on field could we have him back?

Be mildly interested to know where the belief that James Dyson might/could be/has been/interested in buying Bath Rugby? He isn't known for throwing good money after bad.

Sounds like one of those wishlist rumours.

Well I sure pick em. Last game I went to was the big defeat to Sarries. Now this. Really dont see that I'll be going again.

Not even a rumour Annie, just fanciful speculation should BC decide enough's enough. Anyway, as is generally accepted, very few people make money from owning football clubs, let alone rugby clubs- they do it because they can.

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warrenball
Bath still think they are a force in the premiership, but the reality is we are a lower table club and have been for many years. We have gradually, but consistently, declined into the lower reaches of the table and it is a great shame relegation has not forced the current owner to really wake up to the situation, or maybe he just doesn't know what to do?

I don’t follow what you are getting at WB. Does what they apparently think they are make much difference. It is the action they take as a club to create a team & coach it that determines how well they do. They have recently taken on some coaches that most of thought seemed pretty good. Not many on here were critical of them nor of the players they signed. We have acknowledged there are one or two weaker areas within the squad & leaving Hooper & Hatley in situ was criticised by some of us. However, we never expected us to start this season so badly. Did you? This picture of a declining club, whilst it may be true, seems pretty irrelevant to winning or not winning games here & now.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:19:02:03:03 by Bath Hammer.

Looking at this declining for many years notion it is actually a myth. If you look at the Bath Rugby wiki page you can see that we have had lowly positions for only the past couple of seasons. Before that we were mostly in the top 6 & sometimes in the top 4. There is no sign of a gradual decline, just a sudden decline! I’m not sure if that is preferable but it is factual.

The only thing that really matters is the present and what we all saw on Saturday was we are no better than under Hooper.

I don’t subscribe to this “it takes time” to improve mantra either. Things can change quickly if the right changes are made.

Tigers were effectively bottom in 19/20, 6th in 20/21 then champions. Difference is they had a total clear out and culture change in coaching then got the player recruitment right.

Bath didn’t get the recruitment right and the losing mentality is still present. This has resulted in a performance that must have shocked every fan of the club.

Quote:

OutsideBath
The only thing that really matters is the present and what we all saw on Saturday was we are no better than under Hooper.
I don’t subscribe to this “it takes time” to improve mantra either. Things can change quickly if the right changes are made.

Tigers were effectively bottom in 19/20, 6th in 20/21 then champions. Difference is they had a total clear out and culture change in coaching then got the player recruitment right.

Bath didn’t get the recruitment right and the losing mentality is still present. This has resulted in a performance that must have shocked every fan of the club.

I 100% agree OB. This idea of it taking a long time to turn things round plays into the long term decline notion. We have heard of many of the measures JvG has taken already & you would expect some of them to have had an immediate effect. Perhaps the presence of Hooper & Hatley is giving the players a feeling of deja vu. I’m prepared to wait a while but not too long!

It really is early days though as the pre season training and friendlies do not compare to the serious stuff. The impression I have had previously is the club has offered too much carrot and not enough stick, slightly cosy feel that fails when results go wrong. JvG can change that in any ways he likes and I would expect him too.

Now I've had a few days to reflect, the most disappointing thing for me is the lack of younger players in the matchday squad so far. Probably the only positive of last season was the exposure a lot of the academy lads had.

Bailey's had about 10mins in 2 games. On Sat, we were crying out for someone like him. Yes Francis kicked well off the tee vs Bris - which probably bought him a start on Sat - but he offered precious little else. If OB doesn't start against Wasps, do we take that as Francis is JvG's first-choice 10? Deeply concerning if so.

There are others too who could have been involved - Richards, Goss, Ojo jnr off the top of my head. We've bought in a lot of experienced heads but this shouldn't be at the expense of the younger lads, some of whom showed some real promise last year.

Completely agree barfboy.

Have posted a few similar points on a new wasps thread.

Our reward for good performances and for players breaking through seems to be playing bigger names or more experienced heads over them.

The only positives from last season are largely benching or completely out of contention now.

I think jvg is naturally v conservative so I am not surprised but interested to see how it plays out. Blooding good young bath boys buys you some goodwill at least!

We played many youngsters last season, got caned a couple of times and finished bottom...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

Clarkey3k
We played many youngsters last season, got caned a couple of times and finished bottom...

I don't think anyone is saying let's play an u23s team..... just that not building on the few positives last season would be a shame and a missed opportunity.

Richards, Bailey and mojo certainly weren't the issue last season- they out performed and showed up alot of their more senior colleagues imho

I just can't see how keeping Hooper and Hatley at the club can be conducive to developing and implementing a new team dynamic or game plan, or to improve team harmony and commitment or to begin rebuilding Bath Rugby into the exciting, innovative team it once used to be. It must be like leaving home for the first time and finding that your mum and auntie Nell have moved into the flat next door.
Leicester sprang from their depths of a couple of seasons ago by a complete clear out, a clean sheet and recruiting to a game and club plan. Bath have gone quarter-cock and, I suspect, will pay for their lack of boldness, vision and dynamism. Despite our new head broom Bath are now more last season that they were last season. Riding backwards to our future. JvG cannot be truly assessed if he is still shackled with the failures of the past on his team. However detached they are, the Hoops and Hatley presence must swing and groan in the wind like gibbets. Not sure anyone could play well or relish playing in such an atmosphere or in a team so riven. And the Bath team aren't.

Don’t agree with that deck chair. No amount of new broom will change the desperate desire to do what they are told. The team looks over coached to me to the point of leaving their brains in the car park. If it isn’t working then don’t keep doing it - that reset scrum against 13 was a case in point get the ball and send it wide. I don’t know who took over as captain after Spencer left but you can bet it was a forward. Yes they had the scrum at that point but it needed someone to stand up and say enough already let’s get some points instead of all these time wasting resets. The space is out wide.
In reality nothing has changed and nothing will until someone has the guts to stop following orders.

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charlieboa

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Clarkey3k
We played many youngsters last season, got caned a couple of times and finished bottom...

I don't think anyone is saying let's play an u23s team..... just that not building on the few positives last season would be a shame and a missed opportunity.

Richards, Bailey and mojo certainly weren't the issue last season- they out performed and showed up alot of their more senior colleagues imho

OB for sure but would you pick Mojo over Redpath? Richards et al will have the PRC & United games to play in this season. I think they need to be developed/managed carefully...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

'Too soon to judge'

I give you ..... Bazball and Ben Stokes:

1 win in 17 Tests > 6 wins in 7 Tests

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Deckchair
I just can't see how keeping Hooper and Hatley at the club can be conducive to developing and implementing a new team dynamic or game plan, or to improve team harmony and commitment or to begin rebuilding Bath Rugby into the exciting, innovative team it once used to be. It must be like leaving home for the first time and finding that your mum and auntie Nell have moved into the flat next door.

+1

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Clarkey3k
We played many youngsters last season, got caned a couple of times and finished bottom...

Sharer your frustration, but if you think giving the youngsters a shot last season won't be helpful in the long-term then more fool you.

I still think that the young'uns playing a big part last year will serve us well this season - especially when the AIs/6Ns come around - but only if we continue to give them game time!

I'm no fan of what Hooper and Hatley did last season and thought they both should have gone, but blaming these results on them, particularly given the scrum has been our best facet, seems somewhat unfair.

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Barfboy

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Clarkey3k
We played many youngsters last season, got caned a couple of times and finished bottom...

Sharer your frustration, but if you think giving the youngsters a shot last season won't be helpful in the long-term then more fool you.

I still think that the young'uns playing a big part last year will serve us well this season - especially when the AIs/6Ns come around - but only if we continue to give them game time!

I refer you to my post at 10.01hr above...

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Clarkey3k

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charlieboa

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Clarkey3k
We played many youngsters last season, got caned a couple of times and finished bottom...

I don't think anyone is saying let's play an u23s team..... just that not building on the few positives last season would be a shame and a missed opportunity.

Richards, Bailey and mojo certainly weren't the issue last season- they out performed and showed up alot of their more senior colleagues imho

OB for sure but would you pick Mojo over Redpath? Richards et al will have the PRC & United games to play in this season. I think they need to be developed/managed carefully...

Repdath is class (despite a few inexplicable mistakes and decisions on sat) but I think there is an argument for crowbarring in mojo at some point given JJ has been consistently disappointing for about 5 years.

Richards is far too good to be considered a prc/United player IMHO.

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hasta
I'm no fan of what Hooper and Hatley did last season and thought they both should have gone, but blaming these results on them, particularly given the scrum has been our best facet, seems somewhat unfair.

Agreed. It also seems that in shoring up "the basics" the new coaching team have overlooked (as others have said) the few successes of last season. I find it hard to imagine that Bailey, Ojomoh & Richards would have been so predictable against 13 men.

PG

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charlieboa
JJ has been consistently disappointing for about 5 years

JJ reminds me of David Gower trying his best to carry on playing county cricket after Gooch retired him from Test cricket. He scratched around for a season, until in his final county innings having announced his retirement he made a brilliant, effortless century - thereby proving that he was still perfectly capable of playing at the highest level, but having looked down from the top of the mountain for so many years, he just found the view half-way down that much less stimulating.

JJ still tries, but the muse has has gone.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:19:13:19:22 by Optimist.

JJ was fairly invisible on Saturday. Presumably there will be relegation next season so will JvG have had long enough by then?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:19:13:20:32 by Bath Hammer.

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P G Tips

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hasta
I'm no fan of what Hooper and Hatley did last season and thought they both should have gone, but blaming these results on them, particularly given the scrum has been our best facet, seems somewhat unfair.

Agreed. It also seems that in shoring up "the basics" the new coaching team have overlooked (as others have said) the few successes of last season. I find it hard to imagine that Bailey, Ojomoh & Richards would have been so predictable against 13 men.

PG

I don't think the JvG gameplan involves flair at this stage of his tenure. People seem required to follow orders, viz the TdG mark call referred to above. If the ball wasn't kicked from the tee by Bath it was kicked from the hand relentlessly. It feels like Gary Gold MK2 to me and I didn't enjoy that era either...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

"I don't think the JvG gameplan involves flair at this stage of his tenure. People seem required to follow orders, viz the TdG mark call referred to above. If the ball wasn't kicked from the tee by Bath it was kicked from the hand relentlessly. It feels like Gary Gold MK2 to me and I didn't enjoy that era either..."

Or John Connolly - who rescued Bath from a fate their woeful performances merited, but in the process almost destroyed the club's DNA!

PG

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P G Tips

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hasta
I'm no fan of what Hooper and Hatley did last season and thought they both should have gone, but blaming these results on them, particularly given the scrum has been our best facet, seems somewhat unfair.

Agreed. It also seems that in shoring up "the basics" the new coaching team have overlooked (as others have said) the few successes of last season. I find it hard to imagine that Bailey, Ojomoh & Richards would have been so predictable against 13 men.

PG

Have the basics been shored up? Didn’t seem like they had on Saturday, far from it.

That was the stated intention OB- although clearly not the reality!

PG

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Clarkey3k
I don't think the JvG gameplan involves flair at this stage of his tenure ... the ball ... was kicked from the hand relentlessly

The majority of Francis' kicks from hand were actually attacking ploys - cross-kicks to the wing. Why you would continue to employ that tactic when the opposition are 1 short in the backs is something only Piers Francis can answer.

I'm going to put myself right out there and suggest that engineering an overlap could have been an option worth exploring. I mean, when Manu Tuilagi has sufficient sleight of hand to engineer a nice little wrap-around, pop-pass and create an overlap from 6 vs 7, you would have thought that we might give it a go with 7 vs 6.

We are just bloody awful.

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Bath Hammer

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warrenball
Bath still think they are a force in the premiership, but the reality is we are a lower table club and have been for many years. We have gradually, but consistently, declined into the lower reaches of the table and it is a great shame relegation has not forced the current owner to really wake up to the situation, or maybe he just doesn't know what to do?

I don’t follow what you are getting at WB. Does what they apparently think they are make much difference. It is the action they take as a club to create a team & coach it that determines how well they do. They have recently taken on some coaches that most of thought seemed pretty good. Not many on here were critical of them nor of the players they signed. We have acknowledged there are one or two weaker areas within the squad & leaving Hooper & Hatley in situ was criticised by some of us. However, we never expected us to start this season so badly. Did you? This picture of a declining club, whilst it may be true, seems pretty irrelevant to winning or not winning games here & now.

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WimborneBath

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Bath Hammer

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warrenball
Bath still think they are a force in the premiership, but the reality is we are a lower table club and have been for many years. We have gradually, but consistently, declined into the lower reaches of the table and it is a great shame relegation has not forced the current owner to really wake up to the situation, or maybe he just doesn't know what to do?

I don’t follow what you are getting at WB. Does what they apparently think they are make much difference. It is the action they take as a club to create a team & coach it that determines how well they do. They have recently taken on some coaches that most of thought seemed pretty good. Not many on here were critical of them nor of the players they signed. We have acknowledged there are one or two weaker areas within the squad & leaving Hooper & Hatley in situ was criticised by some of us. However, we never expected us to start this season so badly. Did you? This picture of a declining club, whilst it may be true, seems pretty irrelevant to winning or not winning games here & now.

Bath hammer, you are missing the point. The club has declined over many years and has done it slowly bit by hit. The top 6 positions were the best we could do amongst some poor depth of quality in the league. Those results covered the trend of mediocrity and the loss of desire to win and to be the best. As other teams have since improved the inept management of Bath has been exposed, and our ability to compete laid bare. The decline has been hidden in parts, but we can now fall no further in this league.

Personally I think our squad is poor and it's compounded by failing to extract performance from those who have previously exhibited quality. For example, our back row has gone from an embarrassment of riches to, well, an (oft-injured) embarrassment.

Culturally there is something wrong at the club. No doubt, some aspects have improved (e.g. Comms) but without an overhaul of playing staff it'll take much more time to shift the course of this tanker.

Take 'em back to train at Lambridge...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I have no doubt that all of the players in our squad would be vastly improved by playing in another team. Did anyone watch Quins v Salaries? Firstly because it was a really, really, bl00dy good game of rugby but secondly... just look at how good Christian Judge was for Salaries. A night-and-day difference to the Christian Judge who played tor us.

The problem is collective and that's going to take a long time to sort out.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:19:23:41:50 by joethefanatic.

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WimborneBath
Bath hammer, you are missing the point. The club has declined over many years and has done it slowly bit by hit. The top 6 positions were the best we could do amongst some poor depth of quality in the league. Those results covered the trend of mediocrity and the loss of desire to win and to be the best. As other teams have since improved the inept management of Bath has been exposed, and our ability to compete laid bare. The decline has been hidden in parts, but we can now fall no further in this league.

With respect WB I don’t think I am missing the point. I would be the first to express disappointment in our failure to win the league or any meaningful cup or even regularly contest the final stages but that is not the same as was stated i.e. “we are a lower table club & have been for many years/we have gradually declined into the lower reaches of the table” We were in fact 5th in 2017, 6th in 2018 & 2019 & 4th in 2020. Those are the facts. The reason we have slumped so noticeably since then is puzzling. Various reasons have been given but none are that compelling other than the quality of coaching. Some mysterious & mystical culture failing doesn’t do it for me. JvG is probably just as puzzled as everything seemed to be going well in training & the friendlies & the players seemed to have the right mindset. You say the inept management of Bath has been exposed but presumably that is picking the wrong coaches which they have now addressed. Other than that we say the facilities are too good. I think a lot of this is clutching at straws. We just have to hope JvG can address the shortcomings & we don’t continue getting calamitous injuries. Here’s hoping!

"How did you go bankrupt?"
"Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly."
Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I agree with you all this was a hugely disappointing and frustrating performance and result - for what it is worth from where we were sat - Bath came out onto the field and just looked flat right from the start - I actually thought we at the Rec were the same it seemed really flat for a first game of the season and the crowd did seem a bit sparse in places, however the way Sale got round us and through us for the first try was infuriating.

Personally do not blame the referee at all - I felt Josh McNally was a penalty machine and struggled to adapt into the game - it seemed everything he touched resulted in a turn over or penalty - very unlike him.

Concerned already with the injuries - Jaco Coetzee as Malco stated appears to be an injury magnet and the fact we lost Cloete, Obano, Gallagher, Spencer and Underhill in the first 2 matches is hugely concerning.

I did say to my boy that I think Sale might be the surprise package this year - they are an enormous and physical team with pure class through the spine. There pack is a match for any side and spookily if there is a weakness it is their props (if they are a weakness) otherwise they are probably the most physical pack in the Premiership IMHO.

Losing Schonert on Saturday just meant they closed up shop and as JVG stated kept their pack at 8 and mauled us off the park - and the most frustrating and infuriating part is we failed to adapt and I think that is what JVG eluded to when he said he learnt a lot about certain players, their inability to problem solve and adapt.

One positive point is that our front 5 at set piece appears to be competitive and that is a great base to build on - this is only our 2nd game - yes to lose so comprehensively at home against 14 is upsetting however Sale I personally think will be there or there about at the end of the season and will shock some of the big teams.

I still think we are very light in certain areas and the big elephant in the room is where is our big ball carrier coming from - as was shown on Saturday Sale had the 2 Du Preez brothers, Wiese, Hill & Van Der Merwe in the pack and then James and Tuilagi in the centres - Wow that is some power and exactly what we are missing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:20:10:00:04 by Ali1969.

I am puzzled and Joethefanatic's post above makes me no less clear.

If we look through our squad a large number of them have played representative rugby and are highly regarded by Third Parties.

I look at other teams, Worcester being one of the more obvious ones, where seemingly "journeymen"/squad players always play reasonably well, seem to play with commitment and heart. Evidence three tries against Exeter.

I know that our players are no more, but equally no less stupid, than other teams players so WHY, WHY do they persist doing things that have been shown not to work time and time again.

In the past (the very distant past) I played the way I wanted to play and the other players came with me because they saw, (i) it was effective, (ii) it was enjoyable, and (iii) after a time we started to win all of our rugby games.

I do not believe that our squad are prepared to put up with being so pathetic and so it needs some strong characters to take the game by the scruff of the neck and do something different.............'coz what they are doing is useless, loses matches and will drive the crowds away and makes them look stupid.

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joethefanatic
I have no doubt that all of the players in our squad would be vastly improved by playing in another team. Did anyone watch Quins v Salaries? Firstly because it was a really, really, bl00dy good game of rugby but secondly... just look at how good Christian Judge was for Salaries. A night-and-day difference to the Christian Judge who played tor us.
The problem is collective and that's going to take a long time to sort out.

And apparently Faletau was one of the best players on the pitch for Cardiff.

It really does seem that we struggle to get the best out of our players.

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SJS

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joethefanatic
I have no doubt that all of the players in our squad would be vastly improved by playing in another team. Did anyone watch Quins v Salaries? Firstly because it was a really, really, bl00dy good game of rugby but secondly... just look at how good Christian Judge was for Salaries. A night-and-day difference to the Christian Judge who played tor us.
The problem is collective and that's going to take a long time to sort out.

And apparently Faletau was one of the best players on the pitch for Cardiff.

It really does seem that we struggle to get the best out of our players.

And changing the coaches has made no difference, maybe it wasn’t Hooper’s fault after all?

I guess the squad just don’t enjoy playing for Bath so struggle to bring their best form. Top players don’t seem to want to sign for Bath either so there’s clearly something fundamentally wrong.

You could tell from the lack of atmosphere at the Rec the fans lack any belief and just seem resigned to watching the team lose most weeks again. It was unbelievably quiet after the first couple of minutes.

It is just so depressing. Read Stuart Barnes piece in ST yesterday, with one eye on the national event. A damning indictment.



Standing back mentally, I personally can only assume that what was so wrong in the past few years is still culturally dominant. And I don't need to spell that out, now do I? Someone or something is very very undermining and disruptive. A group of professional talented sportsmen don't collectively lose their marbles when they run out on a pitch, and in a home game. We have, apparently, a new coaching team, with a proven track record and ability. Who was the small team creating the gameplan - what were they doing all week out at Farleigh.

I think we'll be good on Friday and win! I think we're reading a bit too much into one pathetic performance under the new regime. Even football clubs give their new managers at least 8 matches to show they're competent! (And if we're rubbish again on Friday I'll admit my stupidity/naivete/ridiculous optimism, but just got a feeling there will be a suitable reaction....).

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TomReagan
I think we'll be good on Friday and win! I think we're reading a bit too much into one pathetic performance under the new regime. Even football clubs give their new managers at least 8 matches to show they're competent! (And if we're rubbish again on Friday I'll admit my stupidity/naivete/ridiculous optimism, but just got a feeling there will be a suitable reaction....).

What did you see last Saturday that gives you confidence it will be any better on Friday? Personally I saw nothing to feel good about and it all seemed far too familiar even down to standing around under the posts looking lost when Sale scored a try. Total absence of any leadership.

Watch Saracens when a team has the cheek to score a try against them, one of their leaders lays down the law in a very vociferous manner.

Losing is a habit and right now every team that comes to the Rec knows an easy 5pts is there for the taking.

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OutsideBath
It was unbelievably quiet after the first couple of minutes.

After the first couple of minutes they were completely thrown out their stride by one left-field tactic, hadn't touched the ball and were 7-0 down. The Rec has always been an "entertain us, then" passive kind of a crowd. Everyone was on the back-foot right from the kick-off!

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OutsideBath
ef
What did you see last Saturday that gives you confidence it will be any better on Friday? Personally I saw nothing to feel good about and it all seemed far too familiar even down to standing around under the posts looking lost when Sale scored a try. Total absence of any leadership.

Watch Saracens when a team has the cheek to score a try against them, one of their leaders lays down the law in a very vociferous manner.

Losing is a habit and right now every team that comes to the Rec knows an easy 5pts is there for the taking.

That's OK OB. We'll see. Sport works like that sometimes. Even Norwich won a few Prem games last year and they really were bad. At worst we're rubbish again and I'll look a bit stupid, but I'm quietly confident.

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Optimist

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OutsideBath
It was unbelievably quiet after the first couple of minutes.

After the first couple of minutes they were completely thrown out their stride by one left-field tactic, hadn't touched the ball and were 7-0 down. The Rec has always been an "entertain us, then" passive kind of a crowd. Everyone was on the back-foot right from the kick-off!

You're right the team were thrown by a clever kick off tactic, but had Bath been sent out fully focused and fired up it wouldn't have worked.

As for the crowd the Rec is probably the quietest crowd you'll find anywhere (even worse than Highbury which frequently resembled a library). However it's difficult for the crowd to be excited when the team offer nothing in return.

We are only two games in! Yes, Saturday was alarmingly similar to last season, but we don't know where we sit relative to the teams we've played, nor where they sit relative to the rest of the Prem. Sale may finish top and the loss won't look so bad. We were unlucky against Bris, who then beat Wasps away. See where we are at Christmas, then we can tell what's what. JvG needs time to build, and the team to become confident in executing what he wants.

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OutsideBath

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Optimist

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OutsideBath
It was unbelievably quiet after the first couple of minutes.

After the first couple of minutes they were completely thrown out their stride by one left-field tactic, hadn't touched the ball and were 7-0 down. The Rec has always been an "entertain us, then" passive kind of a crowd. Everyone was on the back-foot right from the kick-off!

You're right the team were thrown by a clever kick off tactic, but had Bath been sent out fully focused and fired up it wouldn't have worked.

As for the crowd the Rec is probably the quietest crowd you'll find anywhere (even worse than Highbury which frequently resembled a library). However it's difficult for the crowd to be excited when the team offer nothing in return.

A STH who sits next to me asked "When will the Rec crowd start to boo?" I don't think we ever would, we're far to polite, although a number were leaving before the end which is also unusual. Another pal messaged to say his preseason optimism bubble had well and truly burst after Saturday.

Friday now feels like a really big moment in our new season...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

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redmix
See where we are at Christmas

I will be very pleasantly surprised / shocked if we are higher than 10th.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Friday could well be season defining, personally I haven’t decided yet if it’s worth turning up.

Would never boo the team, but don’t feel like wasting my voice on them right now.

One very narrow defeat plus a loss to some peoples outside favourites? Wasn't convinced by the last Sale try either.

Watching only the highlights though makes me no wiser really and if you are all saying we played badly then I will go with that.

I think I said during the summer that we can't expect to be high up the table if we are shipping 40 points a game like last season. So far we have conceded 31 and 37, so that priority remains otherwise we are expecting too much from our attack, chasing a high ish score.

Friday night game is actually what we need, because lights+beer does tend to bring out a bit of atmosphere at the Rec, whereas Saturday afternoons are like an extension of a genteel stroll through Parade Gardens most of the time. I suspect we’lll see a good, lairy contest.

I think we’re overreacting a little bit on here. Interesting comments from JVG regarding learning a lot about players.

Our backrow got massively outplayed, plain and simple. Bayliss and white were anonymous. And that was compounded by the way we played. We kept trying to stretch Sale, without tying their backrow in and then we got isolated and turned over, again and again.

We lost all composure after that card, some players like Francis stuck to the original game plan, others seemed to try and force it, and we ended up just being completely disjointed. It happens almost every time we play against 14.

Luckily these are solvable problems, and I found JVG comments reassuring that he also believes that was unacceptable. Didn’t Leicester finish bottom of the table with Borthwick at the helm? Suspect we’ll bumble through this season, and recruit well over the summer before breaking into the top 4.

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OutsideBath
Friday could well be season defining.

Oh come on! 3rd game of the season under new coaches is season defining? How so?

Big loss = more work to do
Small loss/daw = more work to do
small win = more work to do
big win = Wasps were rubbish, more work to do

I would just like to see our team turn up with their rugby brains!!

I have failed to watch either game, so what's going on here?, an aim to play 10 man rugby but failing to deliver? Except scrummaging?


Looking forward to watching Wasps (Sort of) its on BT.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:20:17:08:51 by woodpecker.

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OutsideBath

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Optimist

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OutsideBath
It was unbelievably quiet after the first couple of minutes.

After the first couple of minutes they were completely thrown out their stride by one left-field tactic, hadn't touched the ball and were 7-0 down. The Rec has always been an "entertain us, then" passive kind of a crowd. Everyone was on the back-foot right from the kick-off!

You're right the team were thrown by a clever kick off tactic, but had Bath been sent out fully focused and fired up it wouldn't have worked.

There was a big gap for du Preez to put that neat grubber kick into that really shouldn't have been there but even so the Sale players had about 13 or 14 metres to make to the ball and TdG about 3 or 4 but he just realised what was happening far too late


As for the crowd the Rec is probably the quietest crowd you'll find anywhere (even worse than Highbury which frequently resembled a library). However it's difficult for the crowd to be excited when the team offer nothing in return.

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redmix

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OutsideBath
Friday could well be season defining.

Oh come on! 3rd game of the season under new coaches is season defining? How so?

Big loss = more work to do
Small loss/daw = more work to do
small win = more work to do
big win = Wasps were rubbish, more work to do

I think that its just as much about the play as the result Redmix. It would be nice to see at least some progress on last seasons weaknessess, given that Wasps have been poor thus far. I'm sure they will be thinking exactly the same of course. If its a big loss and brainless play to boot I may start to get a little concerned even though its so early.

A green shoot please (even just 1)!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

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BathMatt53
I think that its just as much about the play as the result Redmix. It would be nice to see at least some progress on last seasons weaknessess, given that Wasps have been poor thus far. I'm sure they will be thinking exactly the same of course. If its a big loss and brainless play to boot I may start to get a little concerned even though its so early.

A green shoot please (even just 1)!

Improved scrum not a green shoot?

I do agree that a brainless performance would be concerning, but I still don't think it's season defining. However, it will be defining the problem that needs to be solved