Bath
BATH V SARACENS…. TIME TO CLEAN UP THE BLACK STUFF!
Alfie
By Bath Supporter Jack
April 24 2024
A game that would be well worthy of a final. As indeed it was in 2015 when Saracens beat Bath at Twickenham 28 – 16.
An early tackle that day by Owen Farrell on Antony Watson, for which I suspect he would have received a red card with current refereeing protocols, was probably critical. Whilst Watson moved on from Bath a few years ago, Farrell has remained a pivotal part of the Saracens machine.
However, he too departs at the end of the season to ply his trade in Paris with Racing, ironically the same club and of course same position that Finn Russell left to join Bath. Quite different style of players but both sharing a clear love of the game and a drive to win.
He will undoubtedly give everything over the next possible five matches to bring down the curtain on his Saracens career with a win at Twickenham on June 8th. Farrell is a marmite player for many, with some seeing his force of personality and demanding leadership qualities as both an asset and a handicap for any team he captains. What is evident to my Saracens supporter friends is whenever he doesn’t play their team often under performs. This was nowhere more evident than last week against Gloucester when he was substitutedwith 20 minutes to go. Discipline and common sense went out the window and Gloucester scored four tries. I am told, that although Sarries supporters are looking forward to their two new young fly-half signings for next season, there is a sense of dread. Andy Goode, often an architect of Saracens’ wins against Bath is having an Indian summer to his career. No longer always quick enough and yet…His ability to position himself exactly in the right place as a 15 to collect the ball, link up with the players ahead of him and instigate a decisive attacking phase is still evident.
Unfortunately, a matchup of Farrell and Russell will, it seems, not be happening, as Finn is still recovering from his injury sustained two weeks ago at Exeter. It was however lovely to see him and JVG share a hug and a grin after Exeter v Bath (Part II) on Saturday.
The Saracens machine seems to be firing on all cylinders, at home, however their losses in the last few matches have all been away, losing to Sale, Leicester, and Northampton…much like Bath. With only three games left in the regular season the league is very tight. Probably only Northampton now assured of a top 2 place and Bath, Saracens, a currently very strongly performing Bristol, Harlequins and Sale playing for one of the other three play-off places. However, who knows what the impact for Northampton and Harlequins of playing away to Leinster at Croke Park in Dublin and Toulouse at Stadium Toulouse in the semi-finals on the 5th of May of the European Cup will have on their Premiership fortunes whilst everyone else has a rest!
I met Tom Dunn in the week before the second Exeter game and it was clear that there was a steely determination to “put right” the perceived wrong of the game in the “hurricane” at Sandy Park. It was very pleasing to see Orlando Bailey have such a good game and he had a big grin on his face as he smashed the ball into Row V to end the match. It was a pragmatic win; however, it was also a try bonus win, which itself shows how far Bath have come in the past eighteen months and also how high scoring the Premiership has become. As the commentators said of the Sale v Harlequins match how important will Quins try bonus in the last seconds of the match be, come 5.00 on the 18th of May.
I have followed the thread on end of season league projections with great interest and initially thought of our last three fixtures we play the current number 3, the current number 10and the current number 1. However, we should also be saying that they all have to play the current number 2!
The Rec will be hopping on Friday evening and whatever happens it should be an evening when rugby is the winner!!
The Bath Team might well be as follows however it might well be JVG rings the changes however this is going to be very tough match and therefore sticking with last week’s team and squad selection might well be the best route.
15Matt Gallagher
14Joe Cockanasiga
13Ollie Lawrence
12Max Ojomoh
11Will Muir
10Orlando Bailey
9Ben Spencer (Captain)
8Alfie Barbeary
7Sam Underhill
6Ted Hill
5Charlie Ewells
4Quin Roux
3Will Stuart
2Tom Dunn
1Beno Obano
Reserves
16Elliot Stooke
17Hame Faiva
18Miles Reid
18Thomas du Toit
20Louis Schreuder
21Archie Griffin
22Jacques du Plessis
23Will Butt
Saracens will probably field a largely unchanged team, though Ollie Hartley their precocious centre is out with a serious injury and the excellent back row Gonzales may also be injured. However, Daly and first choice scum half Van Zyl are possible returnees.
15. Alex Goode
14. Rotimi Segun
12. Nick Tomkins
11. Tom Parton
10. Owen Farrell (Capt.)
9. Ivan van Zyl
8. Tom Willis
7. Ben Earl
6. Juan Martin Gonzales or Theo McFarland
5. Nick Isiekwe
4. Maro Itoje
3. Marco Riccione
2. Jamie George
1. Mako Vunipola
Reserves
16. Theo Dan
17. Eroni Mawi
18 Olli Hoskins
19. Hugh Tizard
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Aled Davies
22. Manu Vunipola
23. Lucio Sinti or Elliot Daly
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StumbleuponTEAM UP! BATH V SARACENS…. TIME TO CLEAN UP THE BLACK STUFF!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 24/04/2024 17:03
24/04/2024 17:03
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:07:13:21:36 by hasta.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:07:13:21:36 by hasta.
I could see JvG giving starts to DuToit & DuPlessis for this one & perhaps Annett to the bench.
Not sure if Reid passed his HIA so he may give way to Bayliss.
BSJ the Sarrie having an Indian summer is Alex Goode. Andy retired a few seasons ago.
PG
Not sure if Reid passed his HIA so he may give way to Bayliss.
BSJ the Sarrie having an Indian summer is Alex Goode. Andy retired a few seasons ago.
PG
Good preview.
The showdown aside we apparently haven't won away since October and I don't see that changing. I just hope it doesn't get too painful although with our respective front rows I fear it will especially given your quality there and Pearce having previously taken exception to Riccionis scrummaging.
I'll be watching from behind a sofa hoping it will at least be competitive.
The showdown aside we apparently haven't won away since October and I don't see that changing. I just hope it doesn't get too painful although with our respective front rows I fear it will especially given your quality there and Pearce having previously taken exception to Riccionis scrummaging.
I'll be watching from behind a sofa hoping it will at least be competitive.
Personally think it will be a v tight game OM. Every time I look at your 23 on paper recently I think it looks fairly intimidating.
Given the 6 day turnaround I would go:
Gallagher
Big Joe
Lawrence
Mojo
Muir
Bailey
Spencer
Beno
Dunn
Du toit
Du plessis
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Barbeary
Bench: schoeman, annett, stuart, stooke, coetzee, schreuder, butt, bayliss (assume reid out)
...and pray that bailey and gallagher last the 80!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:25:05:53:12 by Charlieboa1.
Given the 6 day turnaround I would go:
Gallagher
Big Joe
Lawrence
Mojo
Muir
Bailey
Spencer
Beno
Dunn
Du toit
Du plessis
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Barbeary
Bench: schoeman, annett, stuart, stooke, coetzee, schreuder, butt, bayliss (assume reid out)
...and pray that bailey and gallagher last the 80!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:25:05:53:12 by Charlieboa1.
Being within touching distance of a home play off semi final has been rare for us as a club for quite a while & that could make us really hyped up for this match which can work in one of two ways. Follow the mantra of JvG, be process driven & do everything at our best level we should be fine. Try to cut corners & overdo the physicality & we will lose out. Let’s hope for calm heads allied to our best game throughout the 80 minutes.
Quote:Charlieboa1
Personally think it will be a v tight game OM. Every time I look at your 23 on paper recently I think it looks fairly intimidating.
Given the 6 day turnaround I would go:
Gallagher
Big Joe
Lawrence
Mojo
Muir
Bailey
Spencer
Beno
Dunn
Du toit
Du plessis
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Barbeary
Bench: schoeman, annett, stooke, coetzee, schreuder, butt, bayliss (assume reid out)
...and pray that bailey and gallagher last the 80!
That is the team I would pick although I would have Stuart on the bench as he played well last week in rotation with TDT.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Missed stuart- now amended.
Don't think sarries need the help of us naming a 7 man bench!
Don't think sarries need the help of us naming a 7 man bench!
Someone posted on the Sarries board that statistically Saracen’s have the most penalised scrum in the league (apparently averaging 3.5 per game), so I think Du Toit has to start this one as he’s shown that he can consistently get the shove on in the scrum and rarely gets pinged (from memory). Stuart is still a bit hit and miss for me, some weeks he looks like a monster, in others the scrum turns into a bit of a lottery with him packing down (e.g. Exeter in the champions cup).
Agree BBB about tdt and stuart.
And start tdt as tighthead not loosehead.
Tdt is a top drawer tighthead and would back him to get the better of 90%+ of his opponents.
OM certainly seems to have concerns at scrum time and he knows sarries better than any of us so let's go after them.
And start tdt as tighthead not loosehead.
Tdt is a top drawer tighthead and would back him to get the better of 90%+ of his opponents.
OM certainly seems to have concerns at scrum time and he knows sarries better than any of us so let's go after them.
I’d be pretty surprised if du Toit didn’t start on Friday. He seems ahead of Stuart in JvG’s mind and having them alternate the last few league games with Stuart v Exeter and Newcastle and then du Toit v Saracens and Saints seems logical.
Big keys for the game will be if players like Hill and Underhill can shut down Tom Willis. There’s other threats but Willis is the main man for making hard yards and getting quick ball which is big for them unlocking the rest of that attack
Second would be the line out. Ours has wobbled at times this year and what we should gain in power we lose in all round athleticism. If we can live with what Itoje, McFarland and Isiekwe bring there that’could be pivotal
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:25:08:56:37 by theredseat.
Big keys for the game will be if players like Hill and Underhill can shut down Tom Willis. There’s other threats but Willis is the main man for making hard yards and getting quick ball which is big for them unlocking the rest of that attack
Second would be the line out. Ours has wobbled at times this year and what we should gain in power we lose in all round athleticism. If we can live with what Itoje, McFarland and Isiekwe bring there that’could be pivotal
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:25:08:56:37 by theredseat.
I think OM is lulling us into a false sense of security! 
Time will tell , I have a front row seat !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Time will tell , I have a front row seat !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Bookies have Sarries by 4 but (famous last words) I feel surprisingly confident about this one so I think we will sneak it.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Thanks PG
Actually the Saracens bits were added by my brother in law who is a Saracens season ticket holder and whose family are en masse staying with us........so getting Goode's first name wrong is a bit embarrassing for him!!
Actually the Saracens bits were added by my brother in law who is a Saracens season ticket holder and whose family are en masse staying with us........so getting Goode's first name wrong is a bit embarrassing for him!!
Always amazes me how much wingers/back 3 players get criticised for minutiae of their defensive reads, positioning, work off the ball, work in the air, finishing, whilst also ... 'Yeah, Bayliss is quick for a back-rower. He can cover wing if it comes to it. Let's go with a 6/2 bench'.
Redpath on the bench. Bailey back up must be Ojomoh or Redpath I guess? Spencer at a push, again not ideal. 6/2 again so risky.
Great to have Redpath back so quickly. Surprised to see Annett starting but not against it either
Positive for us that there’s no McFarland and Goode is only on the bench as he always seems to play well against us. Judge seems like a weak link for them as their third choice tighthead - maybe something we can get after
Positive for us that there’s no McFarland and Goode is only on the bench as he always seems to play well against us. Judge seems like a weak link for them as their third choice tighthead - maybe something we can get after
Redpath back on the bench.
And in a surprise twist, Coetzee and Bayliss have swapped shirt numbers
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:25:12:13:06 by Which Tyler.
Great team.
Redpath on the bench - is Gandalf the Grey secretly part of the medical team?!
No McFarland for them is a huge benefit for Bath, he has been dominant in their lineout.
COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Redpath on the bench - is Gandalf the Grey secretly part of the medical team?!
No McFarland for them is a huge benefit for Bath, he has been dominant in their lineout.
COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Well now that is a shock - Cam back is unreal - but with the medical comments on him makes sense really. More of an inflammation instead of any real damage.
I really think that him back will be the difference in the game. The teams are so closely matched and the benches are overall with Sarries copying the 6/2. But having such a class Operator off the bench could be the difference.
I love how teams now are changing their system to match us, really gives us an advantage.
The idea of being able to bring TDT/JDP/Coetzee/Redpath on 50 mins in is unreal.
I really think that him back will be the difference in the game. The teams are so closely matched and the benches are overall with Sarries copying the 6/2. But having such a class Operator off the bench could be the difference.
I love how teams now are changing their system to match us, really gives us an advantage.
The idea of being able to bring TDT/JDP/Coetzee/Redpath on 50 mins in is unreal.
Quote:theredseat
Judge seems like a weak link for them as their third choice tighthead
Might be nullified given that he's had plenty of practice against Obano
Shame that Will Butt doesn't seem to have fully gained the trust of the coaches - really thought he might kick on this year. Maybe a tribute to the quality/consistent fitness of Joe C, Muir, Max O ....
But once again - that teamsheet is a massive tribute to the S&C/rehab team.
Charlie Ewels is really putting together a very fine body of work this season, too.
But once again - that teamsheet is a massive tribute to the S&C/rehab team.
Charlie Ewels is really putting together a very fine body of work this season, too.
Quote:byQuote:theredseat
Judge seems like a weak link for them as their third choice tighthead
Might be nullified given that he's had plenty of practice against Obano
Scrummaging aside my view of Judge when he was at Bath is that he did very little around the pitch.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Fantastic to see Cam back, his flair could well help to be the difference in the final quarter. I always like to see Daly at full back for an opposing team, too - remember him playing there for Wasps against us at Twickenham as a highly-rated youngster that everyone was talking about and he had a 'mare that day (I'd have more confidence in Will Stuart's kicking game than Daly's in that match!). Fingers crossed for a repeat performance from him tomorrow night.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
As Opti says, and as we've commented on a lot before, the luxury of being able to field (pretty much) the same XV week after week is one we haven't enjoyed in years. I'd love to see something like the average % of the XXIII that has stayed consistent from match to match this season compared to previous seasons. It must be a huge reason for our uptick, both because of the number of Cup Final players we can consistently field and the upside of combinations getting game time together.
Cam back is a massive boost. I'd have given Roux a rest but last week was (IMHO) the best game he's had in a Bath shirt, so let him play, let him wind up Itoje etc! I feel like the Sarries squad is lacking just that bit of top quality and the depth that it so often seems to have. Of course, they'll show up and be massively well-drilled, and I'm never going to bet against a Sarries team with Itoje and Farrell in it, but I just feel that on paper we have the edge, especially with home advantage.
Will need everything we've got. It feels like a cup final. A win would be massive. How exciting!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Cam back is a massive boost. I'd have given Roux a rest but last week was (IMHO) the best game he's had in a Bath shirt, so let him play, let him wind up Itoje etc! I feel like the Sarries squad is lacking just that bit of top quality and the depth that it so often seems to have. Of course, they'll show up and be massively well-drilled, and I'm never going to bet against a Sarries team with Itoje and Farrell in it, but I just feel that on paper we have the edge, especially with home advantage.
Will need everything we've got. It feels like a cup final. A win would be massive. How exciting!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Bookies have Sarries short favourites, [www.oddschecker.com], Bath nearly 2/1 which feels like a punt worth taking...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Which Tyler
And in a surprise twist, Coetzee and Bayliss have swapped shirt numbers
Is it just me or is that one of the campest rugby posters ever
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
I'm coming up for this and am so hyped. Sarries are good but we've got the. Let's absolutely go!!!
I’m nervous about tomorrow. Saracens have turned us over so many times & come on strongly towards the season’s end. Also, they have a fair few match winners particularly Owen Farrell. My heart says Bath but my head is far from certain.
[quote Bath Hammer]I’m nervous about tomorrow. Saracens have turned us over so many times & come on strongly towards the season’s end. Also, they have a fair few match winners particularly Owen Farrell. My heart says Bath but my head is far from certain.[/quote
I am similar.
Beating them earlier in the season hasnt really got me past the mental block rhat we just dont tend to beat sarries- they were missing about 15 of their best players.
Would feel like a statement win i think if we manage it, esp without finn to guide us to it.]
I would assume it will be tight and would be tempted to go a bit old school and pick up the 3 points when on offer and build a score but hopefully they are braver than me!
We will need forward dominance and fair play to sarries if they deny us that as we have a full strength pack.
I am similar.
Beating them earlier in the season hasnt really got me past the mental block rhat we just dont tend to beat sarries- they were missing about 15 of their best players.
Would feel like a statement win i think if we manage it, esp without finn to guide us to it.]
I would assume it will be tight and would be tempted to go a bit old school and pick up the 3 points when on offer and build a score but hopefully they are braver than me!
We will need forward dominance and fair play to sarries if they deny us that as we have a full strength pack.
Need to consider this like a play off semi-final really
If we can't beat a team like Sarries, then the title remains unrealistic
If we can't beat a team like Sarries, then the title remains unrealistic
Really excited for this evening- I get the nervousness however I do believe under JvG this team has a different mental toughness- speaking to a few of the players this season there is a real and marked difference in their demeanour and rhetoric.
If we can establish dominance up front then that goes a long way to neutralising Farrell and Co.
Weather set fine hopefully a great match - I really hope that Stuart goes after Mawi. It is such a shame Thomas Du Toit is covering the LH - his destructiveness at TH has been a real difference this season.
Think Sarries will be looking for territory and the George/Itoje combination.
Let us make some serious noise tonight and let Sarries know they are away from home.
Come in Bath.
If we can establish dominance up front then that goes a long way to neutralising Farrell and Co.
Weather set fine hopefully a great match - I really hope that Stuart goes after Mawi. It is such a shame Thomas Du Toit is covering the LH - his destructiveness at TH has been a real difference this season.
Think Sarries will be looking for territory and the George/Itoje combination.
Let us make some serious noise tonight and let Sarries know they are away from home.
Come in Bath.
Completely agree with A.M. that it's as good as a semi. Lose and it's not all over, of course, especially if we put in a performance to be proud of, and we'll hopefully have our kingpin back for a playoff (if we manage to get there). But our route to silverware this season likely relies on getting a win tonight and a home semi and, more importantly, proving we're ready to put one over the champions. It could all have gone horribly wrong by 10pm, and at this point, Saints look stronger than us, but there's a sense of a torch being passed from the Exeter and Sarries era onto, well, whoever wants to grab it.
Most importantly, completely agree with hasta... I am hyped. Going to be a great evening, whatever the outcome, but could be a very special one if we deliver a performance we know we are capable of.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Most importantly, completely agree with hasta... I am hyped. Going to be a great evening, whatever the outcome, but could be a very special one if we deliver a performance we know we are capable of.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Two of the previous posts mention forward domination we defo need that. Also if there is no score in the first 20 then our second half seems to bring the points.
As I said before not having Finn can make remove complacency in the rest of the team full time industry is essential but remember we are at home, it’s our ground and they are not unbeatable at all.
Discipline will probably decide the game, just hope we have a balanced ref!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
As I said before not having Finn can make remove complacency in the rest of the team full time industry is essential but remember we are at home, it’s our ground and they are not unbeatable at all.
Discipline will probably decide the game, just hope we have a balanced ref!
Doesn't get more balanced in my opinion than Luke Pearce.
And agree that discipline will be everything. Can't afford silly cards (i.e. Dunn v Exeter). Give them nothing.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
And agree that discipline will be everything. Can't afford silly cards (i.e. Dunn v Exeter). Give them nothing.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
£106 for a single adult ticket means that I will be shouting on the lads from the sofa, but agree with all those above - has the feel of a season defining game for many reasons (although of course it isn't really). COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Genuinely excited about this one. Agree it feels season defining - but actually isn't. We could lose and still make Top 4 comfortably.
But, in terms of momentum, confidence, expectations this is big. A statement win would be huge.
My first home game since January as I missed the 6N friendlies and Sale. Friday Night Lights. Bring it on!
But, in terms of momentum, confidence, expectations this is big. A statement win would be huge.
My first home game since January as I missed the 6N friendlies and Sale. Friday Night Lights. Bring it on!
This really is a season defining match, lose and we won’t make top 2 and therefore probably not make the final.
Win without Finn and other teams will sit up and take notice of Bath.
Win without Finn and other teams will sit up and take notice of Bath.
Quote:Rokobilly
Genuinely excited about this one. Agree it feels season defining - but actually isn't. We could lose and still make Top 4 comfortably.
Agree we could lose and make top 4 but I think its season defining as lose and we prob miss out on top 2. Far from convinced we are ready to go away to saints or sarries and win a semi final....
I think our season already, broadly has a definition - we're very, very much better than we've been for many years. Tonight will very much tighten up that definition
- beating Sarries would mean we are ready for a Final and mathematically, will probably make one
- lose tonight and it signifies we're not actually ready whilst making it mathematically very unlikely.
It's all very circular and self-fulfilling!!
Likewise hyped!
- beating Sarries would mean we are ready for a Final and mathematically, will probably make one
- lose tonight and it signifies we're not actually ready whilst making it mathematically very unlikely.
It's all very circular and self-fulfilling!!
Likewise hyped!
When I look at the 2 sides, my combined squad would be (struckthrough = weaker, bold = significantly better, nothing = equal):
1. Obano/Mawi
2.Annett/George
3. Stuart/Judge
4.Roux/Itoje
5. Ewels/Isiekwe
6. Hill/Gonzalez
7. Underhill/Earl
8. Barbeary/Willis
9. Spencer/Davies
10.Bailey/Farrell
11. Muir/Parton
12. Ojomoh/Tompkins
13. Lawrence/Cinti
14. Cokanasiga/Segun
15. Gallagher/Daly
16.Dunn/Dan
17. Du Toit/M Vunipola
18. Griffin/Riccioni
19. Du Plessis/Tizard
20. Bayliss/B Vunipola
21. Schreuder/Van Zyl
22. Redpath/Goode
23. Coetzee/Knight
So I'd say Bath have the edge in 11/23 positions, Saracens are stronger in 4 positions, and the rest are too close to call. Generally speaking they are 2 really well matched teams, could come down to marginal advantages (e.g. the home crowd) which determine the victor.
1. Obano/
2.
3. Stuart/
4.
5. Ewels/Isiekwe
6. Hill/
7. Underhill/Earl
8. Barbeary/
9. Spencer/
10.
11. Muir/
12. Ojomoh/Tompkins
13. Lawrence/
14. Cokanasiga/
15. Gallagher/Daly
16.
17. Du Toit/
18. Griffin/Riccioni
19. Du Plessis/Tizard
20. Bayliss/B Vunipola
21. Schreuder/Van Zyl
22. Redpath/
23. Coetzee/
So I'd say Bath have the edge in 11/23 positions, Saracens are stronger in 4 positions, and the rest are too close to call. Generally speaking they are 2 really well matched teams, could come down to marginal advantages (e.g. the home crowd) which determine the victor.
I love Ted hill but gonzalez is a heck of a player aswell
Not massive fan of Tompkins and daly but arguably have the edge on mojo and Gallagher.
Broadly agree though, think on paper we slightly shade it it and have home advantage so will be a little disappointed if we don't get over the line in this one....
Not massive fan of Tompkins and daly but arguably have the edge on mojo and Gallagher.
Broadly agree though, think on paper we slightly shade it it and have home advantage so will be a little disappointed if we don't get over the line in this one....
Quote:Charlieboa1
I love Ted hill but gonzalez is a heck of a player aswell
Not massive fan of Tompkins and daly but arguably have the edge on mojo and Gallagher.
Broadly agree though, think on paper we slightly shade it it and have home advantage so will be a little disappointed if we don't get over the line in this one....
Admittedly it's not a very objective comparison, I've watched way more of Hill this season, and whilst I know Gonzalez has by all accounts had a very strong season, Ted's gallop in the 1st Exeter game, and then the perfectly timed rib tickler in the 2nd are too difficult for me to look past.
Tompkins is obviously a very different 12 to Max, and both are effective in their own ways, so I'd say their combined strengths and weaknesses broadly cancel each other out.
Daly is probably a better distributer/playmaker, but I feel Gallagher has the edge defensively. And of course both seriously adept with the boot.
Quote:boozeboozebooze
Tompkins is obviously a very different 12 to Max, and both are effective in their own ways, so I'd say their combined strengths and weaknesses broadly cancel each other out.
Tompkins has been relatively poor by his own high standards over the last few months - he looks very tired after a long season IMO.
Not a fag paper between those 2 back rows in my view, both absolutely top class.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:15:37:56 by BathMatt53.
I hope we win tonight but if we loose but grab 2 points, it won't be the end of the World. I reckon we need 9 points all told 5 hopefully against Newcastle and 2 against Saints although we might get 4/5 at Saints if they are still top when we play them👍
Finn looks like he’s walking fine and he’s kicking balls around so maybe not as bad as feared.
First up tackling has to improve
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Sarries ruthlessly efficient.
Do worry we might struggle for territory with Bailey's weakness kicking from hand
Do worry we might struggle for territory with Bailey's weakness kicking from hand
Quote:A.M 180
Sarries ruthlessly efficient.
Do worry we might struggle for territory with Bailey's weakness kicking from hand
Spencer needs to take that on
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Ludicrous call at the lineout
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Toast and Marmite
Ludicrous call at the lineout
Yup - can understand it when you're looking for a fourth try but that was time to shunt it
Wow this is a kicking borefest. I get that it’s a tactical battle but my, even as a rugby fan I’m battling dropping off from all this kicking.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
It's great that Pearce keeps the game alive, but feel a penalty or two could help move this game on a bit
Penalty but I hope it’s not a Red
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
He has got to look at that again surely
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Would be a massive miss if we don't get something out of this bin time
Even without him, we're making it easy for them to slow down the breakdown
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:20:26:40 by A.M 180.
Even without him, we're making it easy for them to slow down the breakdown
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:20:26:40 by A.M 180.
Haven’t seen enough jackalling from our back row
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Disaster
I really hope Redpath is 100%, because we need to change something up here and he would be the clear solution
I really hope Redpath is 100%, because we need to change something up here and he would be the clear solution
Quote:A.M 180
Disaster
I really hope Redpath is 100%, because we need to change something up here and he would be the clear solution
Yeah we need to give them more to think about
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Nightmare half.
No problem with the kicking. It’s essentially a semi final. If Man City played Arsenal tomorrow, they wouldn’t be sticking 4 up front in the first half.
So painfully Bath of a few seasons ago, with a lot of industry, couple of bright moments, but nothing to show for it. Furthermore, so painfully “Saracens”.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
No problem with the kicking. It’s essentially a semi final. If Man City played Arsenal tomorrow, they wouldn’t be sticking 4 up front in the first half.
So painfully Bath of a few seasons ago, with a lot of industry, couple of bright moments, but nothing to show for it. Furthermore, so painfully “Saracens”.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
That duffed lineout move is really irking me now
We have no sense of any dominance in this game, simply because we thought we'd be cute
We have no sense of any dominance in this game, simply because we thought we'd be cute
That last try was a direct result of their cheating at the ruck. We counter rucked and then a salaries player in the middle of the ruck pops up with it in his hand. That's illegal hands in the ruck
Redpath wouldn't make a difference because he wouldn't see the ball. We're playing for territory and pressure but we're not taking chances, while Sarries have had two chances and scored twice. Big 40 needed.
Lots of huff and puff, but being squeezed by Sarries suffocating us, and then they seem better at exploiting any missed tackles.
Need to change things in the second half if we're to get anything out of this.
Pretty dire watch though.
Second Sarries try watch top, top quality.
Need to change things in the second half if we're to get anything out of this.
Pretty dire watch though.
Second Sarries try watch top, top quality.
Classic rope a dope from Sarries atm. More players need to show Obanos energy levels
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Right, this feels like a defining 40 minutes. Can't deal with Sarries game, then the title just isn't for us yet
Perfect reversal of last week v Exe, with oppo scoring on the HT whistle and being 12-0 up.
Let the comparison tonight stop there! Please!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Let the comparison tonight stop there! Please!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Wow - Barbearay's kick!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:20:52:36 by A.M 180.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:20:52:36 by A.M 180.
Gah!! First up tackling again nearly kills us
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Get Dunn, Du Toit and Redpath on
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Sarries coach basically saying we’re playing exactly how they want
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Well, Spencer going off means we absolutely can't kick any more....but he continues!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:21:02:09 by A.M 180.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:21:02:09 by A.M 180.
Quote:A.M 180
Why won't Pearce give holding on penalties?!
Yeah, it may go some way to explaining why there are so few turnovers
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
AC joint for Spencer
ETA that feels more fluid than brave
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:21:04:07 by Which Tyler.
ETA that feels more fluid than brave
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:21:04:07 by Which Tyler.
Got to be close to a yellow
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
God AH wants players sent off more than I do!
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
GET IN!
Feels like this game can only be won from set piece, and a combo of Pearce/Sarries aren't going to afford many opportunities
So, come on Bath we need to take every chance
Feels like this game can only be won from set piece, and a combo of Pearce/Sarries aren't going to afford many opportunities
So, come on Bath we need to take every chance
Let’s try and get a pen here
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:LolWhich Tyler
Classic IC try
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Absolute brain dead idiocy
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
That’s not quite as bad as Burn’s try that wasn’t but not far off
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:not even close.Toast and Marmite
That’s not quite as bad as Burn’s try that wasn’t but not far off
He thought the chaser was on his back, so without anyone telling g him he's got time, he does the o lying thing he can.
At no point was he showboating and tempting karma
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Famous last wordsA.M 180
Don't think we'll even get a shot at this now.
Livid - we should have had something from this game
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:A.M 180
That's it
Yeah we aren’t good enough
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Demons of previous seasons (handling) haunting us at the worst moment
Defines this season really - so much to be proud of, but we won't be winning the Prem
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:21:41:41 by A.M 180.
Defines this season really - so much to be proud of, but we won't be winning the Prem
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:21:41:41 by A.M 180.
Tackle on Thomas at the end was a knock on in the tackle, so should have been Bath scrum,. Accept Luke might not have spotted it, but TMO should have.
Farrell was at his obnoxious worst today - contant back chat and overly questioning of decisions.
Frustrating.
Farrell was at his obnoxious worst today - contant back chat and overly questioning of decisions.
Frustrating.
Quote:A.M 180
Demons of previous seasons (handling) haunting us at the worst moment
Defines this season really - so much to be proud of, but we won't be winning the Prem
TBF we have also started losing key players at precisely the wrong time
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
The shot clock is the worst thing to be introduced as it slows down the kicks, not speed them up!
Ridiculously annoying but at least we went down swinging. Don’t blame Pearce (he was excellent) Cam or JDP for the penalty or any of our guys. Should’ve just kept our heads when we were rumbling forward through Bayliss and Coetzee around the 72-74th minute. Ferocious game that was basically a test match. Loved the tension and a draw would’ve been fair but sport is rarely fair!
Theyre still really good. Farrell’s will and skill basically won it for them almost single handed with try at the end of H1 and his scoop up and offload in the 75th minute in his own 22. World class.
Fear not. Rest up. Fortnight off. Finn to return. 10 points to bag and we may well still get a home semi.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Theyre still really good. Farrell’s will and skill basically won it for them almost single handed with try at the end of H1 and his scoop up and offload in the 75th minute in his own 22. World class.
Fear not. Rest up. Fortnight off. Finn to return. 10 points to bag and we may well still get a home semi.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
I know both sides do it, but almost every ruck there is a player at least a foot in front of the back foot on their side. Maro was offside every single time he went for a charge down. Ewells much the same. It is so, so easy for the TJs to see and yet it's ignored time after time after time.
Bath had a few key opportunities which they didn’t take unfortunately. On that performance we are a long way from Saints in terms of clinical attack. Won’t have attracted any new fans to the game, that’s for sure (not that this was the aim obviously). Very disappointing result but very glad to see Orlando walk off the pitch.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:dr.bath1865
Ridiculously annoying but at least we went down swinging. Don’t blame Pearce (he was excellent) Cam or JDP for the penalty or any of our guys. Should’ve just kept our heads when we were rumbling forward through Bayliss and Coetzee around the 72-74th minute. Ferocious game that was basically a test match. Loved the tension and a draw would’ve been fair but sport is rarely fair!
Theyre still really good. Farrell’s will and skill basically won it for them almost single handed with try at the end of H1 and his scoop up and offload in the 75th minute in his own 22. World class.
Fear not. Rest up. Fortnight off. Finn to return. 10 points to bag and we may well still get a home semi.
Sarries interplay for the theo Dan break and chip that Cam carried over was top drawer tbf.
Ben Earl said after it was test match intensity.
Just want to share my appreciation for Ben Spencer who I'm sure we recognise is still a 'Sarries player' in the sense he will somehow find a way to keep going, dragging anyone he can lay his hand forward with him.
Just feel we need one or two more players like him in this squad before we can ever win anything
Just feel we need one or two more players like him in this squad before we can ever win anything
Quote:A.M 180
Just want to share my appreciation for Ben Spencer who I'm sure we recognise is still a 'Sarries player' in the sense he will somehow find a way to keep going, dragging anyone he can lay his hand forward with him.
Just feel we need one or two more players like him in this squad before we can ever win anything
I suspect that is one of the aspects JVG is going for in his new signings. Du Plessis for one has the attitude and aggression we require to work n things.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
They had too many clean breaks - those stats will be the most worrying and really meant they deserved to win. Although we should have done better with the opportunity at the end when the ball became a bar of soap for 30 seconds.
Quote:Shadders
They had too many clean breaks - those stats will be the most worrying and really meant they deserved to win. Although we should have done better with the opportunity at the end when the ball became a bar of soap for 30 seconds.
Be interesting the stats on that. Perhaps they have managed to identify something in our defensive play
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Credit to Saracens. Just that little bit better in almost every facet of the game tonight.
Quote:Barnoid
Credit to Saracens. Just that little bit better in almost every facet of the game tonight.
Yep, credit to sarries- v hard team to like but easy one to respect.. Bit of a lesson handed to us by a champion side who have been there and done it many, many times. I hope we learn!
Encouraging that we could have (and arguably should have) won it second half but made too many silly errors at important times to deserve it, esp in the last 2 mins!
Hats off to the bench who had a good impact and dragged us back into it.
I'm absolutely livid. Just haven't yet worked out with whom or why. Sarries were uber smart, professional and infuriating - with some magic moments in between. We played into their hands for far too long.
The Itoje incident looked red all day long from my seat. Not seen any replays though. Regardless, the way Sarries managed that 10 minutes, scoring at the stroke of HT won them the game.
The season's not over yet but the sunny uplands definitely seem further away tonight.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:23:02:56 by Rokobilly.
The Itoje incident looked red all day long from my seat. Not seen any replays though. Regardless, the way Sarries managed that 10 minutes, scoring at the stroke of HT won them the game.
The season's not over yet but the sunny uplands definitely seem further away tonight.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:26:23:02:56 by Rokobilly.
Quote:A.M 180
Just want to share my appreciation for Ben Spencer who I'm sure we recognise is still a 'Sarries player' in the sense he will somehow find a way to keep going, dragging anyone he can lay his hand forward with him.
Just feel we need one or two more players like him in this squad before we can ever win anything
Just back from the game and still fuming. He was certainly a Sarries player tonight kicking the ball back to them at every opportunity to our detriment in the first half. A brain dead first half game plan from him/JvG cost us dearly. Too much box kicking and a much slower service to Bailey from the breakdown when we went wide. We should have taken 1-2 shots at goal too when we had the chance to keep in touch. In loose play every one was kicking the damn thing back to them, Bailey, Gallagher and even Barbeary from a 2nd half lineout steal. Just nuts.
In the last minute of the first half there were no forwards organised to keep the ball in hand and kill the clock so we kick it away and let them in for a try whilst down to 14. Bonkers. Friends who were watching at home were messaging with FFS during the first half.
JvG has improved us a side for sure but he won nothing at Munster in 5yr and if that's how he sets our team up for such an important match we won't win anything in future either. If we make the make the play offs we'll just be making up the numbers if we play like that again. Bitterly disappointed just about covers it for me tonight.
Hats off to Sarries and OF in particular, they are my pick for the title now after they beat us again in the S/Final...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
So, we lost to a late penalty to the team you think are going to be champs, Clarkey, yet we’re only ‘making up the numbers’ and won’t win anything in future. I share your frustration- but your negativity, especially the stab at JVG’s record and game plan, feels well wide of the mark.
Your criticism of Spencer who played on through about a dozen injuries tonight is, frankly, laughable.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Your criticism of Spencer who played on through about a dozen injuries tonight is, frankly, laughable.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:A.M 180
Just want to share my appreciation for Ben Spencer who I'm sure we recognise is still a 'Sarries player' in the sense he will somehow find a way to keep going, dragging anyone he can lay his hand forward with him.
Just feel we need one or two more players like him in this squad before we can ever win anything
Just back from the game and still fuming. He was certainly a Sarries player tonight kicking the ball back to them at every opportunity to our detriment in the first half. A brain dead first half game plan from him/JvG cost us dearly. Too much box kicking and a much slower service to Bailey from the breakdown when we went wide. We should have taken 1-2 shots at goal too when we had the chance to keep in touch. In loose play every one was kicking the damn thing back to them, Bailey, Gallagher and even Barbeary from a 2nd half lineout steal. Just nuts.
In the last minute of the first half there were no forwards organised to keep the ball in hand and kill the clock so we kick it away and let them in for a try whilst down to 14. Bonkers. Friends who were watching at home were messaging with FFS during the first half.
JvG has improved us a side for sure but he won nothing at Munster in 5yr and if that's how he sets our team up for such an important match we won't win anything in future either. If we make the make the play offs we'll just be making up the numbers if we play like that again. Bitterly disappointed just about covers it for me tonight.
Hats off to Sarries and OF in particular, they are my pick for the title now after they beat us again in the S/Final...
This is quite the take
Yeah, we were like a 90% imitation of Sarries. They did it better and they won.
I think part of Bath's problem is the lack of confidence and almost adherence to structure (especially in the absence of Finn). Outside of Spencer (when not kicking) and Redpath, I got the feeling everyone was doing what they were told. Muir, in particular, squandered a couple of half chances by carrying into contact but he wasn't alone.
I don't know if a different, less structured gameplan would have worked but this one didn't. We're not at the point where we can play it to Sarries level.
I think part of Bath's problem is the lack of confidence and almost adherence to structure (especially in the absence of Finn). Outside of Spencer (when not kicking) and Redpath, I got the feeling everyone was doing what they were told. Muir, in particular, squandered a couple of half chances by carrying into contact but he wasn't alone.
I don't know if a different, less structured gameplan would have worked but this one didn't. We're not at the point where we can play it to Sarries level.
Very frustrating. In the end, two first half mistakes cost us, a poor Muir kick straight to touch led to their first and then that stupid concede straight before halftime. Ok boys, ten points from the last two please.
Hope Landy is ok.
Hope Landy is ok.
We weren’t able to find any space & our two centres looked quite ineffective. Lawrence seems to be tired after a demanding season & Ojomoh is not as effective as Redpath. By contrast the Saracens backs who are mostly unfamiliar to me made several telling incursions. For that alone they probably deserved to win but to suggest that they were way superior to us in this game is a gross exaggeration. I suppose if we had won which we were very close to achieving, we would have been u undeserving winners.
Quote:dr.bath1865
So, we lost to a late penalty to the team you think are going to be champs, Clarkey, yet we’re only ‘making up the numbers’ and won’t win anything in future. I share your frustration- but your negativity, especially the stab at JVG’s record and game plan, feels well wide of the mark.
Your criticism of Spencer who played on through about a dozen injuries tonight is, frankly, laughable.
The facts are we lost at home in a key match to the better side who demonstrated what it takes to be a champion side including OF running down the clock for the winning penalty. The bookies have us 3rd/4th favourites for the Prem title behind Saints and Sarries so we're making up the playoff numbers as far as they are concerned.
My remarks about JvG's record are a repeat of what Munster fans have said to me on several occasions, they were in fact glad to see him move to Bath.
If Spencer our captain, was playing through injury then why? Did the 6/2 bench split force that upon JvG given Bailey's HIA? If he was playing with injuries that isn't v funny at all, as you should know dr b.
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
We tried to out-Sarrie Sarries and got out-Sarried by Sarries. Who could have guessed? Our worst gameplan of the season carried out to the letter and beyond by Spencer.
Talk about an inferiority complex. When we played like Bath for a few minutes, Sarries looked a bit stressed.
Talk about an inferiority complex. When we played like Bath for a few minutes, Sarries looked a bit stressed.
Very tense game played by two teams sticking very efficiently to limited game plans, with very few errors. I'm clearly not a rugby purist because it might have had the intensity of a test match but I was rather bored by it all and there was a sense of inevitability about us losing at the end because Sarries tend to win games like that. We seem to have tightened up as we get to the business end of the season; in recent games we seem to be playing not to lose rather than to win. Before the 6N we were looking to offload out of tackles; I don't recall many such attempts in the last 3 games. It was clear that Sarries were happy dealing with our box kicking yet we persisted with it regardless. The kicking away of possession with 35 seconds left in the first half was crazy and predictably Sarries took advantage at a crucial time. Go in 5-0 down in a tight game, OK. 12-0 spelt trouble. I don't think we're quite good enough to win the title atm but I hope it's won by Saints or Quins who stick to a brave game plan. I could add Briz to that list but obviously I'd rather anyone win but them! Last observation. Well done to the club for trying to create some atmos before the game and at half-time. Loved the neon-lit drummers, albeit a shame they were beating out their rhythms whilst the sound system persisted in blasting out the usual tired rock anthems. Next time Mr DJ, shut up and let the live band do their thing!
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:The facts are we lost at home in a key match to the better side who demonstrated what it takes to be a champion side including OF running down the clock for the winning penalty. The bookies have us 3rd/4th favourites for the Prem title behind Saints and Sarries so we're making up the playoff numbers as far as they are concerned.dr.bath1865
So, we lost to a late penalty to the team you think are going to be champs, Clarkey, yet we’re only ‘making up the numbers’ and won’t win anything in future. I share your frustration- but your negativity, especially the stab at JVG’s record and game plan, feels well wide of the mark.
Your criticism of Spencer who played on through about a dozen injuries tonight is, frankly, laughable.
My remarks about JvG's record are a repeat of what Munster fans have said to me on several occasions, they were in fact glad to see him move to Bath.
If Spencer our captain, was playing through injury then why? Did the 6/2 bench split force that upon JvG given Bailey's HIA? If he was playing with injuries that isn't v funny at all, as you should know dr b.
I think Sarries shaded it today but I wouldn't be too upset about the defeat given the bookies pretty much had it spot on. We are a much stronger side than we've been for a long time, but don't have the Sarries DNA, or whatever, in terms of grinding teams down and having that self-belief and aura of invincibility. JVG imho is doing a great job in terms of creating a talented squad that seems well coached and has a good spirit. I agree with you Clarkey in not liking the 6-2 split however; it's unnecessarily conservative and has twice created unnecessary problems. I also think he's a little too reluctant to bring the younger talent through, as was the case at Munster. Today's game plan was also, to my mind, unproductively cautious. Perhaps he needs to be a little less risk-averse but he's taking us in the right direction, albeit we couldn't go much lower and he's been very generously backed by Bruce Craig in terms of player and staff recruitment.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:01:34:52 by TomReagan.
Delighted with that but as said above it could have gone either way and I suspect its exactly the sort of game that a player like Russell finds you the extra winning points in.
I suspect our two sides will meet again this season so honours even with the decider to come?!
Reading the above it feels like there's a little of, the gameplan didn't work, so its wrong. Which given how close it was seems a bit harsh on JVG.
The reality is you've been quite Sarries-like for much of the season with heavy reliance on the kicking game of Spencer and Russell for territory and control.
The scrum dominance I expected from Bath never really arrived and then only fleetingly in the second half. Whether that's down to you or us I don't know but it was significant.
Very good game from Farrell. Whatever people on here think of him with his head in the game there's no doubt the team plays with extra steel when he leads.
Interestingly I thought that Barbeary line out was a brilliant call. Poor execution doesn't change that. Very good games by all our backrowers and generally felt we shaded it across the field despite strong Bath performances.
Well done to Griffin. He made a great impact from the bench. Bailey also played well. I felt the frequency he took on the line was probably as much about Sarries shutting down his options as attacking intent but he often got behind the defensive line and created issues.
Another good game from Ewels too.
Still lots to work on for Sarries and Dan aside our bench looks very short on impact and the experience seemed to pay limited dividends.
Last few minutes was bonkers 😀
Agree with BM that Saints still look different level to the other teams. Will be interesting to see how they do with a slightly rotated team v Quins. Hopefully they play during a break in the weather!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:07:57:15 by OldMarovian.
I suspect our two sides will meet again this season so honours even with the decider to come?!
Reading the above it feels like there's a little of, the gameplan didn't work, so its wrong. Which given how close it was seems a bit harsh on JVG.
The reality is you've been quite Sarries-like for much of the season with heavy reliance on the kicking game of Spencer and Russell for territory and control.
The scrum dominance I expected from Bath never really arrived and then only fleetingly in the second half. Whether that's down to you or us I don't know but it was significant.
Very good game from Farrell. Whatever people on here think of him with his head in the game there's no doubt the team plays with extra steel when he leads.
Interestingly I thought that Barbeary line out was a brilliant call. Poor execution doesn't change that. Very good games by all our backrowers and generally felt we shaded it across the field despite strong Bath performances.
Well done to Griffin. He made a great impact from the bench. Bailey also played well. I felt the frequency he took on the line was probably as much about Sarries shutting down his options as attacking intent but he often got behind the defensive line and created issues.
Another good game from Ewels too.
Still lots to work on for Sarries and Dan aside our bench looks very short on impact and the experience seemed to pay limited dividends.
Last few minutes was bonkers 😀
Agree with BM that Saints still look different level to the other teams. Will be interesting to see how they do with a slightly rotated team v Quins. Hopefully they play during a break in the weather!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:07:57:15 by OldMarovian.
All great dynasty teams take a few seasons to build the experience, resilience and confidence to become great. We're doing that now. There will be set backs but if we can hang on to the players and coaches we should be heading towards better days (they are already). Have a pop at individual players and coaches if you must but don't lose sight of the bigger picture.
Congrats OM.
I was disappointed/ angry/ frustrated during the game as I am sure all bath fans were but pretty quickly philosophical.
2 seasons ago we had 70 points put on us by sarries at home and are now angry with ourselves because we lost to a late pen and squandered chances to win it.
I think these games are very important in our development and we will learn a lot from it. Do feel we went into our cages but can understand that as sarries are the best at squeezing you and then seizing on errors as soon as you do anything loose.
Seems like we still have a little way to go in defining our style and identify, then having the confidence to deliver that gameplan whoever is in front of us. I think jvg/ blackett will get us there with the backing from Bruce.
I have had sarries as favourites for a while now. I think the extra brutal games saints have in Europe could be their downfall. If they win this weekend may give them the opp to rest and rotate to negate that.
Agree OM about griffin - been a breakthrough season and a good advert for being patient with young talent. Also bailey had a nice , tidy, well balanced game as you say. Also agree on ewels- wins all his physical collisions now- love it.
You are right re faz- I have sooooo much time for him. Yes he is annoying , mouthy , outright unpleasant sometimes but he has been the fulcrum at sarries and I think we would have been a far more successful club if he had been driving standards for the last decade at bath. Fascinated to see the impact of his loss next season- you may be fine due to the wider dna in the club.
I was disappointed/ angry/ frustrated during the game as I am sure all bath fans were but pretty quickly philosophical.
2 seasons ago we had 70 points put on us by sarries at home and are now angry with ourselves because we lost to a late pen and squandered chances to win it.
I think these games are very important in our development and we will learn a lot from it. Do feel we went into our cages but can understand that as sarries are the best at squeezing you and then seizing on errors as soon as you do anything loose.
Seems like we still have a little way to go in defining our style and identify, then having the confidence to deliver that gameplan whoever is in front of us. I think jvg/ blackett will get us there with the backing from Bruce.
I have had sarries as favourites for a while now. I think the extra brutal games saints have in Europe could be their downfall. If they win this weekend may give them the opp to rest and rotate to negate that.
Agree OM about griffin - been a breakthrough season and a good advert for being patient with young talent. Also bailey had a nice , tidy, well balanced game as you say. Also agree on ewels- wins all his physical collisions now- love it.
You are right re faz- I have sooooo much time for him. Yes he is annoying , mouthy , outright unpleasant sometimes but he has been the fulcrum at sarries and I think we would have been a far more successful club if he had been driving standards for the last decade at bath. Fascinated to see the impact of his loss next season- you may be fine due to the wider dna in the club.
Whether you like him or loathe him Farrell was the difference last night.
Disappointed but we will pick ourselves up and go again next week 2nd place still up for grabs - 1 point behind Sarries who have to play Bristol and Sale whilst we have to get a 5 point win at Falcons and then potentially and under strength Saints if and big if they have already cemented 1st place.
Not blaming Pearce but thought he was quite strange and unlike his usual self last night - several decisions strange and I see Saints are rightly pointing out the Fin Smith incident where he told Smith not to run the clock down and as such Sarries got 2 LBP - last night he clearly allowed Farrell to do exactly that?
We are still way ahead of where I expected us to be this season and not all is lost. What a difference Thomas Du Toit made when he came on.
Disappointed but we will pick ourselves up and go again next week 2nd place still up for grabs - 1 point behind Sarries who have to play Bristol and Sale whilst we have to get a 5 point win at Falcons and then potentially and under strength Saints if and big if they have already cemented 1st place.
Not blaming Pearce but thought he was quite strange and unlike his usual self last night - several decisions strange and I see Saints are rightly pointing out the Fin Smith incident where he told Smith not to run the clock down and as such Sarries got 2 LBP - last night he clearly allowed Farrell to do exactly that?
We are still way ahead of where I expected us to be this season and not all is lost. What a difference Thomas Du Toit made when he came on.
Any thoughts on the maro yellow?
I personally like to see officials try to avoid giving reds if there is any doubt or mitigation so no major issue from me.
Just not sure I agreed there was shoulder contact - looked like it was with force, direct head contact, maro the aggressor and upright, barbeary bolt upright- just struggled to see the mitigation personally but as I say I like to see 15 vs 15 as much as possible. we didn't do anything differently or look more of a threat when he was off so hard to argue it would have made much difference anyway!
I am wildly biased so interested in other opinions, though not many of us on ere have more than one eye!
I personally like to see officials try to avoid giving reds if there is any doubt or mitigation so no major issue from me.
Just not sure I agreed there was shoulder contact - looked like it was with force, direct head contact, maro the aggressor and upright, barbeary bolt upright- just struggled to see the mitigation personally but as I say I like to see 15 vs 15 as much as possible. we didn't do anything differently or look more of a threat when he was off so hard to argue it would have made much difference anyway!
I am wildly biased so interested in other opinions, though not many of us on ere have more than one eye!
Quote:Charlieboa1
Congrats OM.
I was disappointed/ angry/ frustrated during the game as I am sure all bath fans were but pretty quickly philosophical.
2 seasons ago we had 70 points put on us by sarries at home and are now angry with ourselves because we lost to a late pen and squandered chances to win it.
I think these games are very important in our development and we will learn a lot from it. Do feel we went into our cages but can understand that as sarries are the best at squeezing you and then seizing on errors as soon as you do anything loose.
Seems like we still have a little way to go in defining our style and identify, then having the confidence to deliver that gameplan whoever is in front of us. I think jvg/ blackett will get us there with the backing from Bruce.
I have had sarries as favourites for a while now. I think the extra brutal games saints have in Europe could be their downfall. If they win this weekend may give them the opp to rest and rotate to negate that.
Agree OM about griffin - been a breakthrough season and a good advert for being patient with young talent. Also bailey had a nice , tidy, well balanced game as you say. Also agree on ewels- wins all his physical collisions now- love it.
You are right re faz- I have sooooo much time for him. Yes he is annoying , mouthy , outright unpleasant sometimes but he has been the fulcrum at sarries and I think we would have been a far more successful club if he had been driving standards for the last decade at bath. Fascinated to see the impact of his loss next season- you may be fine due to the wider dna in the club.
Good assessment Charlie. I dont think we need to beat ourselves up after last nights result. It really could of gone either way at 70 mins. We are entering uncharted waters with a highly pressured run in. I trust JVG and I trust the squad. The season is far from over.
The lack of a poaching threat was noticeable - I guess the gameplan didn't involve that, but would we have been better off with a Reffell or an Evans (or a Pepper) in the back row, going hunting?
Hard to leave Underhill out but he doesn't offer that at 7.
Hard to leave Underhill out but he doesn't offer that at 7.
Thanks Charlie.
I agree it's all a learning process. Maybe a bit like the Chiefs game not the worst one to lose knowing there's a decent chance (certain in Chiefs case) of meeting the same opposition at the same venue soon and having the chance to address the "isues" there might have been.
Only watched the game live but the first replay seemed to show what Pearce said. Whilst the replay from the other side (where you couldn't see there was barely any contact) looked bad. I'd have thought it harsh had it been red but could have seen it.
What did you think of the double movement for Baths first try? 😉
JK7 I think there was poaching threat on both sides Pearce just wasn't giving anything. Underhill made a brilliant one on a Sarries linebreak and Lawrence got one that should have been a Sarries penalty. Both Earl and JMG looked to have secured turnovers only for Pearce to allow Bath to take it back rather than reward. Don't think it favoured either side especially but not a fan of his interpretation.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:09:07:24 by OldMarovian.
I agree it's all a learning process. Maybe a bit like the Chiefs game not the worst one to lose knowing there's a decent chance (certain in Chiefs case) of meeting the same opposition at the same venue soon and having the chance to address the "isues" there might have been.
Only watched the game live but the first replay seemed to show what Pearce said. Whilst the replay from the other side (where you couldn't see there was barely any contact) looked bad. I'd have thought it harsh had it been red but could have seen it.
What did you think of the double movement for Baths first try? 😉
JK7 I think there was poaching threat on both sides Pearce just wasn't giving anything. Underhill made a brilliant one on a Sarries linebreak and Lawrence got one that should have been a Sarries penalty. Both Earl and JMG looked to have secured turnovers only for Pearce to allow Bath to take it back rather than reward. Don't think it favoured either side especially but not a fan of his interpretation.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:09:07:24 by OldMarovian.
Main take aways from last nights match:
I still hate the 6:2 bench split. (but at least we handled the FH injury better this week, without a FH on the bench than we did against Exeter, with a FH on the bench).
I'm not sure why we tried to out Saracens the Saracens - but it nearly came off - though mostly by actually trying to play some rugby in the 2nd half.
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
I still hate the 6:2 bench split. (but at least we handled the FH injury better this week, without a FH on the bench than we did against Exeter, with a FH on the bench).
I'm not sure why we tried to out Saracens the Saracens - but it nearly came off - though mostly by actually trying to play some rugby in the 2nd half.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Charlieboa1
Any thoughts on the maro yellow?
I personally like to see officials try to avoid giving reds if there is any doubt or mitigation so no major issue from me.
Just not sure I agreed there was shoulder contact - looked like it was with force, direct head contact, maro the aggressor and upright, barbeary bolt upright- just struggled to see the mitigation personally but as I say I like to see 15 vs 15 as much as possible. we didn't do anything differently or look more of a threat when he was off so hard to argue it would have made much difference anyway!
I am wildly biased so interested in other opinions, though not many of us on ere have more than one eye!
The right call for me. Poor technique from Maro but I couldn't see head contact (wasn't clear from the replays anyway) - I think the bounciness of Alfie's hair accentuated the impact.
What annoyed me was that he got to Alfie so hard and fast because he was offside, which was a pretty regular occurrence. As said above that probably went both ways, I wasn't looking out for our guys, but commentary praising the line speed was irritating.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:09:05:44 by JK7.
Quote:OldMarovian
What did you think of the double movement for Baths first try? 😉
Not too sure on the rules tbh OM!
Defo could be interpreted as tackled and held then propels himself again.
I think if luke Pearce hadn't been perfectly positioned to make the call the tmo would have taken a look and encouraged him to review so we probably got the rub of the green there.
Think it was a relatively quiet eve for the officials which is normally a sign they got most stuff right
Quote:Charlieboa1
Think it was a relatively quiet eve for the officials which is normally a sign they got most stuff right
Agree 👍
Quote:JK7
The lack of a poaching threat was noticeable - I guess the gameplan didn't involve that, but would we have been better off with a Reffell or an Evans (or a Pepper) in the back row, going hunting?
Hard to leave Underhill out but he doesn't offer that at 7.
As OM says underhill got a cracker and ollie got one that was a bit dubious.
I do think it's been identified as an area for improvement within the squad. Cloete hasn't worked out.
I expect that's why we were linked with wyn Jones who is excellent at the breakdown and why we have signed pepper who I think is an absolute menace. We have loads of backrowers but he offers something different and jvg couldn't look past the chance to get him.
Agree that Farrell made a big difference, especially as he was obviously still carrying an injury.
Sarries wingers were better than ours, catching almost every high ball, which obviously makes you wonder why we continued to feed it to them. Muir had a fair game, but I do not understand all the hype around Joe C, certainly he is still young and can score tries, but looks lost for a lot of the time, especially without Russell directing him. He seems to lack confidence and maybe this is what Russell gives him when they are together, but he was certainly the least effective wing yesterday.
Surprised we did not attack the breakdown more, Sarries are past masters at slowing things down, but looked more uncertain and tired when we started to run at them in the second half.
Not too disappointed with the result, with a bit more self belief we could easily have won and certainly Russell would probably have made a big difference. Unfortunately I cannot see us winning an away semi, so hope for 10 points out of the next two games and other results go our way.
Sarries wingers were better than ours, catching almost every high ball, which obviously makes you wonder why we continued to feed it to them. Muir had a fair game, but I do not understand all the hype around Joe C, certainly he is still young and can score tries, but looks lost for a lot of the time, especially without Russell directing him. He seems to lack confidence and maybe this is what Russell gives him when they are together, but he was certainly the least effective wing yesterday.
Surprised we did not attack the breakdown more, Sarries are past masters at slowing things down, but looked more uncertain and tired when we started to run at them in the second half.
Not too disappointed with the result, with a bit more self belief we could easily have won and certainly Russell would probably have made a big difference. Unfortunately I cannot see us winning an away semi, so hope for 10 points out of the next two games and other results go our way.
Quote:IMO It was Barb's side step that stopped it being a red; it meant that there was no real force in the head contact.Charlieboa1
Any thoughts on the maro yellow?
Just not sure I agreed there was shoulder contact - looked like it was with force, direct head contact, maro the aggressor and upright, barbeary bolt upright
For me, yellow was fine, yellow + review would have been fine; red would have been harsh.
There was another incident about a minute later, where Segun takes Muir out in the air - which ought to have been a yellow, but... Pearce was perfectly positioned, and ruled it based on what he saw from the position - and I fully respect him for doing so, rather than going to the TMO. Going to the TMO would probably have seen a yellow card emerge, and would certainly have made Bath favourites with 9 minutes against 13 men (and no Segun to score his try less than 10 minutes later) - but he saw what he saw, and was confident in that, and despite everything, I for one, am happy with that.
Quote:IIRC from the stats, we poached twice, and they poached zero.JK7
The lack of a poaching threat was noticeable - I guess the gameplan didn't involve that, but would we have been better off with a Reffell or an Evans (or a Pepper) in the back row, going hunting?
Hard to leave Underhill out but he doesn't offer that at 7.
One of those poaches was Underhill (IIRC the other was Spencer).
From memory, Underhill is our best jackler - even if it's not his USP. Has anyone got any stats?
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:OldMarovian
JK7 I think there was poaching threat on both sides Pearce just wasn't giving anything. Underhill made a brilliant one on a Sarries linebreak and Lawrence got one that should have been a Sarries penalty. Both Earl and JMG looked to have secured turnovers only for Pearce to allow Bath to take it back rather than reward. Don't think it favoured either side especially but not a fan of his interpretation.
There was one by Ewels where he ripped it back which I thought was smart work - the jackal is well enough rewarded anyway.
If it has been an open, exciting game I would have loved the interpretation that seemed to favour the side with the ball. As it was I was kind of crying out for turnovers to try and break out of the monotonous kicking between 22s (and I think all the most prominent turnovers came after promising attacks).
The fact we are all disappointed about losing to Sarries shows how far we have progressed under JvG, it wasn't so long ago they put >70 points on us. However the match showed we are still a long way from being serious title contenders. Sarries were good value for the win and they showed Bath how to defend effectively in midfield. Not once did Bath's backs get through yet Sarries waltzed through our midfield unchallenged a number of times. Work still to be done on the defence.
Finn missing could have been decisive last night as our attack didn't have any form of creativity, we just spent the evening running into defenders.
Think on this occasion JvG got the tactics seriously wrong, why on earth did we get into a kicking battle with Sarries who are the past masters at kick chase rugby?
I was pleased when Luke Pierce was appointed ref for the game, but think he had an off night. The screen replays seemed to show Itoje's tackle on Barbeary met the criteria for a red card, head contact with force, upright with no mitigation. Almost identical to a Barbeary red card earlier in the season.
LP allowed both 9's to spend as much time as they like arranging the furniture before eventually box kicking way beyond the 5 seconds. He also allowed Sarries to illegally get in the way of Spencer on more than one occasion at rucks most notably Farrell.
Having said that the ref had little bearing on Bath losing as Sarries were just the better team and will give Saints a stern challenge in the final.
Biggest credit goes to both sets of fans for sitting through one of the most tedious games of rugby this season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:09:58:22 by OutsideBath.
Finn missing could have been decisive last night as our attack didn't have any form of creativity, we just spent the evening running into defenders.
Think on this occasion JvG got the tactics seriously wrong, why on earth did we get into a kicking battle with Sarries who are the past masters at kick chase rugby?
I was pleased when Luke Pierce was appointed ref for the game, but think he had an off night. The screen replays seemed to show Itoje's tackle on Barbeary met the criteria for a red card, head contact with force, upright with no mitigation. Almost identical to a Barbeary red card earlier in the season.
LP allowed both 9's to spend as much time as they like arranging the furniture before eventually box kicking way beyond the 5 seconds. He also allowed Sarries to illegally get in the way of Spencer on more than one occasion at rucks most notably Farrell.
Having said that the ref had little bearing on Bath losing as Sarries were just the better team and will give Saints a stern challenge in the final.
Biggest credit goes to both sets of fans for sitting through one of the most tedious games of rugby this season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:09:58:22 by OutsideBath.
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:dr.bath1865
So, we lost to a late penalty to the team you think are going to be champs, Clarkey, yet we’re only ‘making up the numbers’ and won’t win anything in future. I share your frustration- but your negativity, especially the stab at JVG’s record and game plan, feels well wide of the mark.
Your criticism of Spencer who played on through about a dozen injuries tonight is, frankly, laughable.
The facts are we lost at home in a key match to the better side who demonstrated what it takes to be a champion side including OF running down the clock for the winning penalty. The bookies have us 3rd/4th favourites for the Prem title behind Saints and Sarries so we're making up the playoff numbers as far as they are concerned.
My remarks about JvG's record are a repeat of what Munster fans have said to me on several occasions, they were in fact glad to see him move to Bath.
If Spencer our captain, was playing through injury then why? Did the 6/2 bench split force that upon JvG given Bailey's HIA? If he was playing with injuries that isn't v funny at all, as you should know dr b.
I just find that opinion absolutely crazy. So Saracens are the champion side but took the them to the 77th minute to the win the game ? And we are there to make numbers up. That’s just absolute madness. We were missing two of the most influential players in the team
JVG has a considerably better team than he ever did at Munster. And this is a complete different set up. They also were glad to be moving on due to the style of play which is nothing like what we play.
That last comment is just silly and you know it. No need for it.
I agree HK, but without repeating previous comments I have some concerns when BS plays with OB.
I’m also concerned about how much OB gets involved at breakdown time when he should be setting the backs!
In fairness to Clarkey that a post immediately after a gutting loss when emotions were boiling so I think a bit of leniency should be shown.
I couldn’t post an objective post like Charlie even now so I won’t.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I’m also concerned about how much OB gets involved at breakdown time when he should be setting the backs!
In fairness to Clarkey that a post immediately after a gutting loss when emotions were boiling so I think a bit of leniency should be shown.
I couldn’t post an objective post like Charlie even now so I won’t.
What I would add is that if we end up playing Sarries again either at the Rec or the Stonex (where we have already won this season) the signs are Finn will be back and as well as Orlando has played we are a different side when Finn is pulling the strings and directing the team.
Lots of positives despite the disappointment. JvG his usual professional and magnanimous self he just oozes calmness and sensibility.
Lots of positives despite the disappointment. JvG his usual professional and magnanimous self he just oozes calmness and sensibility.
From HK890 "JVG has a considerably better team than he ever did at Munster. And this is a complete different set up. They also were glad to be moving on due to the style of play which is nothing like what we play."
Munster won the URC last season beating the Stormers away in Cape Town, quite a result [www.bbc.co.uk].
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Munster won the URC last season beating the Stormers away in Cape Town, quite a result [www.bbc.co.uk].
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
I agree that, however annoying we may find him, Farrell was the difference last night & credit to he & Sarries for managing a win when the momentum seemed to be slipping away from them.
I also thought it was an uncharacteristic evening for Luke Pearce. Usually hot on breakdown infringements and offside, he seemed happy to be laissez faire with both. That appeared to frustrate players and supporters of both clubs.
I do think though that we should not be too doomy. I agree with HK890 - we were minutes away from drawing with (or even sneaking a win from) the serial champions in a quasi knock-out game. We now have two weeks to recover and prepare for a strong win on Tyneside, followed by a home tie to end the season. Northampton will of course be a special challenge, but Bath have won every home final fixture of the last 10 years -whether under Ford, Blackadder, Hoops or JvG.
It is still in our hands to finish strongly. A fully focused team performance and "fortress Rec" atmosphere will be needed. I for one am really looking forward to it.
PG
I also thought it was an uncharacteristic evening for Luke Pearce. Usually hot on breakdown infringements and offside, he seemed happy to be laissez faire with both. That appeared to frustrate players and supporters of both clubs.
I do think though that we should not be too doomy. I agree with HK890 - we were minutes away from drawing with (or even sneaking a win from) the serial champions in a quasi knock-out game. We now have two weeks to recover and prepare for a strong win on Tyneside, followed by a home tie to end the season. Northampton will of course be a special challenge, but Bath have won every home final fixture of the last 10 years -whether under Ford, Blackadder, Hoops or JvG.
It is still in our hands to finish strongly. A fully focused team performance and "fortress Rec" atmosphere will be needed. I for one am really looking forward to it.
PG
Think Saracens played very well personally. That try before half time killed us, again a fantastic bit of skill from Farrell.
Definitely agree with previous posters, every Saracens player was just slightly better than their Bath counterpart.
I don’t believe we got the gameplan right. They had no trouble dealing with our box kicks and often found space to counter, whereas we were suffocated. It felt as though every positive we had, we followed up with a kick, only to find ourselves 20 or 30 meters back behind where we started. Barbearys kick following the line out steal being a good example.
One out runners from 9 weren’t working. Pick and go did, thought we could have tried inside passes more as well - something we’ve seen Finn do a lot this season.
Anyways I thought we had the tactics right against Exeter last week. Little kicks in behind from 10 or 12, against a rushing defence. Not just relying on box kicks.
Pearce was a little too relaxed around the breakdown. Big fan of Pearce, but if you’re allowing the breakdown to be a mess then teams wont be encouraged to attack as they can’t get good ruck speed and the ball is more likely to be stolen.
Maro’s head on head, looked identical to Barbeary’s yellow against racing. Karma.
Definitely agree with previous posters, every Saracens player was just slightly better than their Bath counterpart.
I don’t believe we got the gameplan right. They had no trouble dealing with our box kicks and often found space to counter, whereas we were suffocated. It felt as though every positive we had, we followed up with a kick, only to find ourselves 20 or 30 meters back behind where we started. Barbearys kick following the line out steal being a good example.
One out runners from 9 weren’t working. Pick and go did, thought we could have tried inside passes more as well - something we’ve seen Finn do a lot this season.
Anyways I thought we had the tactics right against Exeter last week. Little kicks in behind from 10 or 12, against a rushing defence. Not just relying on box kicks.
Pearce was a little too relaxed around the breakdown. Big fan of Pearce, but if you’re allowing the breakdown to be a mess then teams wont be encouraged to attack as they can’t get good ruck speed and the ball is more likely to be stolen.
Maro’s head on head, looked identical to Barbeary’s yellow against racing. Karma.
That try before halftime was the difference. That last ruck after Muir tapped back to Ewels was definitely hands in the ruck by Sarries causing the ball to squirt out.
Listening on Ref Link I had the impression that Rosey wanted to be more involved as TMO than Luke wanted. Rosey drew attention to the head clash as foul play but Luke was quite definite in his decision of yellow once he'd seen about 3 clips/angles but Rosey kept showing more.
I still think Pearce the best current Premiership ref (with very honourable mentions to Tom Foley & Adam Leal) and was very surprised he did not get more glamorous gigs at RWC 23.
PG
PG
Quote:P G Tips
I still think Pearce the best current Premiership ref (with very honourable mentions to Tom Foley & Adam Leal) and was very surprised he did not get more glamorous gigs at RWC 23.
PG
He is the best, however he had a really bad day at the office yesterday.
Quote:hasta
That try before halftime was the difference. That last ruck after Muir tapped back to Ewels was definitely hands in the ruck by Sarries causing the ball to squirt out.
That last passage of play was totally breathless. I didn't have the best view at the ground, but it did seem very odd that during that ruck 5 metres out the ball just suddenly appeared from the side given Bath had numerous players securing the ball.
Having gone back to look at what actually happened, it looks to me like it wasn't neccessarily Bath's carelessness at the ruck that led to them conceding possession...
I'm obviously going to see this from a Bath perspective, but the actions of Gonzalez look "questionable" to say the least. Sarries were playing right on the edge of the breakdown all game, and whilst for the most part they had some nouse in how they slowed our ball down, this incident feels a bit more obvious.
Not saying this would have changed the result, Bath weren't looking particularly clinical last night, but given the way the ball came out looked so strange in real time you'd have thought it might raise some red flags in the minds of the officials, especially happening in the deciding moments of the game.
I mean it's a pen isn't it but that's great play and judgement at a crucial moment as long as you get away with it (which he did)- streetwise or a bit lucky.... prob happens too much to be luck
Can't point to one penalty alone, but it was very frustrating at a key moment.
Watching Farrell take his time in setting up the deciding penalty: the clock is still running, and it is obvious he is running the time down. Are the rules that the 'stop clock' doesn't start until the tee is placed/mounted, and, until then, theoretically, he could have messed around until 30 seconds before the 80 mins were up?
Quote:hasta
Can't point to one penalty alone, but it was very frustrating at a key moment.
Yep I do agree, if your hopes of winning rely on the referee spotting a breakdown infringement in the final play then you haven't done enough during the previous 79 minutes.
Still, it is a real puzzler how it went unnoticed.
Looks both in from the side and playing the ball on the ground. I wondered at the time how on earth the ball squirted out at such a speed.
Thought Segum's arial tip on Muir should have been yellow, quite amazed it wasn't. Those 8-9 minutes could have been match defining.
Likewise the knock on in the tackle on TdT right on the end missed.
Not sure we got the rub on those key decisions.
I also felt that Pearce should have stopped Farrell from constantly, and unreasonably, harassing him around almost every penalty in Bath's favour.
Thought Segum's arial tip on Muir should have been yellow, quite amazed it wasn't. Those 8-9 minutes could have been match defining.
Likewise the knock on in the tackle on TdT right on the end missed.
Not sure we got the rub on those key decisions.
I also felt that Pearce should have stopped Farrell from constantly, and unreasonably, harassing him around almost every penalty in Bath's favour.
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Watching Farrell take his time in setting up the deciding penalty: the clock is still running, and it is obvious he is running the time down. Are the rules that the 'stop clock' doesn't start until the tee is placed/mounted, and, until then, theoretically, he could have messed around until 30 seconds before the 80 mins were up?
Shot clock is 'supposed' to start when the tee is brought onto the pitch.
Not sure that’s right DB it’is within 90 seconds of the try being awarded or 60 secs if a penalty.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
It certainly seemed like more than 60 seconds to me, at the time! But then, it was Farrell!
Just on my comment about Underhill not providing a jackal threat, he obviously does up to a point and gets some great turnovers, but he isn't a specialist - partly because he's so often the one making the tackle. It feels like more of a group effort for us, which is the case probably for most teams.
Watching guys like Reffell and Evans currently, or Jack Willis when he was running around for Wasps, they can have such a big impact on a game even if they're often quite one dimensional. As said above, it seems like Cloete was meant to be that guy and hopefully it will be Pepper - our first choice back row selection from next season is going to be getting even tougher.
Watching guys like Reffell and Evans currently, or Jack Willis when he was running around for Wasps, they can have such a big impact on a game even if they're often quite one dimensional. As said above, it seems like Cloete was meant to be that guy and hopefully it will be Pepper - our first choice back row selection from next season is going to be getting even tougher.
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Watching Farrell take his time in setting up the deciding penalty: the clock is still running, and it is obvious he is running the time down. Are the rules that the 'stop clock' doesn't start until the tee is placed/mounted, and, until then, theoretically, he could have messed around until 30 seconds before the 80 mins were up?
Shot clock was running and ref had told Farrell where it was - might have been above the screen, but I couldn't see it. Ref was getting a count down from the 4th official but not passing it on so Farrell must have been able to see something, he kicked on 5 seconds.
Quote:SusanneQuote:Mike the Taxi
Watching Farrell take his time in setting up the deciding penalty: the clock is still running, and it is obvious he is running the time down. Are the rules that the 'stop clock' doesn't start until the tee is placed/mounted, and, until then, theoretically, he could have messed around until 30 seconds before the 80 mins were up?
Shot clock was running and ref had told Farrell where it was - might have been above the screen, but I couldn't see it. Ref was getting a count down from the 4th official but not passing it on so Farrell must have been able to see something, he kicked on 5 seconds.
Pearce was giving Farrell a countdown, every 5 seconds. Clearly heard on TV
I'm by no means Farrell's biggest fan, but I'd say using all available time for the kick is just good game management, I'd 100% back a Bath kicker to do the same thing under those circumstances.
Incidentally, if you want to see an example of how not to "manage the clock", look at this from Super Rugby a few weeks ago.
Crusaders score a try to go 1 point ahead, with a conversion to come.
Kicker takes the conversion on 79:59 (and slots it) even though there was 8 seconds left on the shot clock, so Waratahs still get a restart.
Waratahs recover the restart, get a penalty and convert it to take the game to golden point.
Waratahs work a dropgoal in extra time to steal it.
I'd much rather my side was street smart with the clock than fall foul of something like this.
Incidentally, if you want to see an example of how not to "manage the clock", look at this from Super Rugby a few weeks ago.
Crusaders score a try to go 1 point ahead, with a conversion to come.
Kicker takes the conversion on 79:59 (and slots it) even though there was 8 seconds left on the shot clock, so Waratahs still get a restart.
Waratahs recover the restart, get a penalty and convert it to take the game to golden point.
Waratahs work a dropgoal in extra time to steal it.
I'd much rather my side was street smart with the clock than fall foul of something like this.
Hindsight is a great thing, but we really should have taken the easy 3 point penalty on offer in the first half instead of choosing to go to our flaky lineout.
Farrell's game management was excellent and I'd be furious at a Bath player NOT doing that.
Quote:I felt sinilar in the second half. griffin had just marmalised their scrum, our lineout was poor (being generous), and we got a penalty about 7m out.hasta
Farrell's game management was excellent and I'd be furious at a Bath player NOT doing that.
I felt we should have gone for scrum
We scored off the lineout.
I was happy being wrong.
RAEBURN SHIELD
The shot clock is clearly visible - at least two digital clocks in the corners on the digital advertising display.
Did anyone else think that Theo Dan used his legs to trip Redpath in our in goal area following he break and kick. Looked like it to me when I watched the replay earlier, but no mention by the Ref or commentators.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:19:17:13 by dcsh.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:19:17:13 by dcsh.
Quote:dcsh
Did anyone else think that Theo Dan used his legs to trip Redpath in our in goal area following he break and kick. Looked like it to me when I watched the replay earlier, but no mention by the Ref or commentators.
Looked like he slipped up and tripped redpath to me which you would assume was a pen?
As you say no mention of it by officials or commentators- probably all v excitable by the length of the field break out.
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Watching Farrell take his time in setting up the deciding penalty: the clock is still running, and it is obvious he is running the time down. Are the rules that the 'stop clock' doesn't start until the tee is placed/mounted, and, until then, theoretically, he could have messed around until 30 seconds before the 80 mins were up?
I think Farrell was well within his rights to take the time available to make his kick.
But it contrasts with whichever referee told the Saints kicker to speed up his kick against Sarries... Sarries ended up scoring two tries and securing two bonus points in the available time.
Edit: Turns out it was Luke Pearce...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:27:20:16:08 by The Bear.
Personally no issue with faz taking every available second. Boot on the other foot I would be commending the professionalism.
Inconsistency not great though in the officiating of that's the case (didn't watch the other game)
Inconsistency not great though in the officiating of that's the case (didn't watch the other game)
The Bear its not great but its also an incident that was a one off and he was obviously told he was wrong and hasn't repeated that.
If Saints had closed out the game properly it wouldn't have been an issue instead they switched off so I've limited sympathy.
If Saints had closed out the game properly it wouldn't have been an issue instead they switched off so I've limited sympathy.
Quote:OldMarovian
The Bear its not great but its also an incident that was a one off and he was obviously told he was wrong and hasn't repeated that.
If Saints had closed out the game properly it wouldn't have been an issue instead they switched off so I've limited sympathy.
Immaterial if they switched off. If they'd use the allotted time then it would have been basically impossible for Saracens to achieve both of those two points (there might have been a few seconds to achieve it).
1, 2 points is a league-altering decision - I still don't understand the rationale. I'm glad it hasn't been repeated, why would any ref take that on themselves?
He kicked the penalty on 70 minutes. Sarries scored on 80 and 81 but if he took an extra 45 seconds the game would gave been a different game. Sarries might have scored no trys or four trys and won!! It's pointless pretending it's linear.
Just managed to watch the game. We'll have learned a lot from that loss which should come in handy in the return match in the semi. The fact that we are disappointed by the result says how far we've come in 2 years. I thought OB2 had a good overall game but he doesn't get that extra 1% out of everybody that Finn does. I think with Finn at 10, we win that match. I hope Spenno is OK.
Nil desperandum.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Nil desperandum.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:Charlieboa1
I mean it's a pen isn't it
Is it? There's nothing in there that shows anything but JMG hitting a ruck and the ball squirting out as a combination of a Bath player try and grab it and accidentally kick it. Obv also with my own Sarries-specs on!
Incredible performance by him regardless. Top tackler, top dominant carries, 3 lineout steals, that disruption and nice linking in attack. It's huge for the team players putting in really complete all-round performances. Earl likewise.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:Charlieboa1
I mean it's a pen isn't it
Is it? There's nothing in there that shows anything but JMG hitting a ruck and the ball squirting out as a combination of a Bath player try and grab it and accidentally kick it. Obv also with my own Sarries-specs on!
Incredible performance by him regardless. Top tackler, top dominant carries, 3 lineout steals, that disruption and nice linking in attack. It's huge for the team players putting in really complete all-round performances. Earl likewise.
Look at the gif in boozeboozebooze's post above, hand straight on the ball on the floor, ball pops out immediately. Clear penalty. Not the reason we lost.
My bad hasta, I'll have to rewatch.
My phone shows only half that replay (ironic given the duscussion) so I was going on what I saw live. I did mention the Sarries-specs! 😉
My phone shows only half that replay (ironic given the duscussion) so I was going on what I saw live. I did mention the Sarries-specs! 😉
Quote:OldMarovian
My bad hasta, I'll have to rewatch.
My phone shows only half that replay (ironic given the duscussion) so I was going on what I saw live. I did mention the Sarries-specs! 😉
I made the same mistake and had to get it on desktop view.
As you say I think he hits the bath man and it squirts out off the bath players foot. My one eyed gripe is he flies in at the side of the ruck so I thought offside and also isn't supporting his own bodyweight as has hands on the floor.
Agree he had a great game. I flagged up before that I wasn't convinced at all that hill edged him in terms of quality- he is top draw and on form
Like I said like him or loathe him Farrell was the difference- as an ex-player it bugs the life out of me how he continually abuses and questions officials - he does get preferential treatment from them some could argue he has earned that by performing at the very top for so long and being national captain, I would argue he should be the opposite and set a level of standard for aspiring players to follow.
He is the epitome of professionalism and determination and that part of his game I love his petulance and constant niggle and ability to lose his head with cheap shots is the opposite which I hate and will and has IMHO stopped him from being a Dan Carter or Beauden Barrett.
Interesting that O’Gara has stated that he believes Farrell will have to seriously work on his behaviour as French officials will not put up with any backchat.
Luke Pearce in my opinion is a great official but he was out of sorts on Friday and his allowance of Farrell to berate and question every decision sent the wrong message to all and made it appear as if Farrell had him in his pocket.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:11:50:10 by Ali1969.
He is the epitome of professionalism and determination and that part of his game I love his petulance and constant niggle and ability to lose his head with cheap shots is the opposite which I hate and will and has IMHO stopped him from being a Dan Carter or Beauden Barrett.
Interesting that O’Gara has stated that he believes Farrell will have to seriously work on his behaviour as French officials will not put up with any backchat.
Luke Pearce in my opinion is a great official but he was out of sorts on Friday and his allowance of Farrell to berate and question every decision sent the wrong message to all and made it appear as if Farrell had him in his pocket.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:11:50:10 by Ali1969.
Pearce allowed Farrell to dominate him which is maybe why he’s not progressing up the international officiating ladder as quickly as he should. A simple go away Owen with threat of penalising him would have shut Farrell down quickly.
His indulgence of the 9’s was his worst failing on Friday though.
His indulgence of the 9’s was his worst failing on Friday though.
Agree about 9s.
I think an early pen for taking too long to box kick against either team and an early offside pen would have helped the game.
Problem with faz is that he has capt so plays up to the privilege of having the refs ear - fair play I think.
What did he say when landy was down injured near the end? Seemed to spark a bit of a response from Pearce? Didn't catch it on the audio
I think an early pen for taking too long to box kick against either team and an early offside pen would have helped the game.
Problem with faz is that he has capt so plays up to the privilege of having the refs ear - fair play I think.
What did he say when landy was down injured near the end? Seemed to spark a bit of a response from Pearce? Didn't catch it on the audio
To be fair, that was a pretty uncharacteristic Pearce performance. As I said in an earlier post, he is usually hot on speed of breakdown and on offside. Had he been on Friday I believe that we would have seen less kicking -even from two teams who bas their game plan on it-and less niggle.
Not sure his relationship with captains is holding him back. usually i think his manner with them is good.
PG
Not sure his relationship with captains is holding him back. usually i think his manner with them is good.
PG
The JMG incident was a clear penalty.
It was not the reason for our defeat but was one of three moments that could have gone the other way. Segun scores just before half time to add 7 points to Sarries lead (7 minutes into what could have been a yellow card).
Sarries breakaway that led to the penalty is begun by 2 forward passes.
So- add the three up and seemingly Lady Luck had a black and white scarf, not a blue, black and white one on Friday evening.
As Joe say, we will have learned a lot from that. The main learning should be how to take luck out of the equation. "Dominant" sides nearly always get it: Leicester over a decade ago, then Saracens, Exeter, now Saracens again (and Harlequins).
PG
It was not the reason for our defeat but was one of three moments that could have gone the other way. Segun scores just before half time to add 7 points to Sarries lead (7 minutes into what could have been a yellow card).
Sarries breakaway that led to the penalty is begun by 2 forward passes.
So- add the three up and seemingly Lady Luck had a black and white scarf, not a blue, black and white one on Friday evening.
As Joe say, we will have learned a lot from that. The main learning should be how to take luck out of the equation. "Dominant" sides nearly always get it: Leicester over a decade ago, then Saracens, Exeter, now Saracens again (and Harlequins).
PG
Quote:OldMarovian
My bad hasta, I'll have to rewatch.
My phone shows only half that replay (ironic given the duscussion) so I was going on what I saw live. I did mention the Sarries-specs! 😉
Admittedly it's not a particularly neat ruck, so it's not quite as clear where the gate is.
Even if you were to give Gonzalez the benefit of the doubt and say he didn't enter the ruck from the side, he seems to lead with his right hand straight onto the floor and then poke the ball out the other side.
At worst it's a penalty for in at the side/off feet/not supporting weight, if being sympathetic it could be given as a knock on given the ball squirts back towards Bath's posts.
Was a textbook "Richie McCaw" type intervention, which is a serious complement for a backrower (providing you can maintain a perception of being a "clean" operator at the breakdown)
PG Pearce refereeing of Sarries loss against Saints at FG is one of the best refereed games I've seen in recent seasons. It also contained him hurrying up Smiths kick which was obviously an error but the rest was brilliant and I say that as a supporter of a team not necessarily helped by either a quick game or more ball in play time.
The big differences were he really enforced using it from 9 including penalising not using. He also stopped the slow trudge and Mother's meeting that goes on before every lineout.
Had that performance been the template for refereeing for the season I think the game would gave been massively enhanced.
Tbh I obviously have a bias of my own but there will always be stuff missed on both sides. There certainly were Bath ones too.
Overall i think Pearce got most things right and in comparison to recent "injustices" both Bath and Sarries have suffered under referees/TMOs it was a very well refereed game.
I like the idea of RoG, who has spent a fair bit of his time at LaRo in the stands due to touchline bans, saying Farrell will have to be careful how he speaks to referees 😀
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:13:14:51 by OldMarovian.
The big differences were he really enforced using it from 9 including penalising not using. He also stopped the slow trudge and Mother's meeting that goes on before every lineout.
Had that performance been the template for refereeing for the season I think the game would gave been massively enhanced.
Tbh I obviously have a bias of my own but there will always be stuff missed on both sides. There certainly were Bath ones too.
Overall i think Pearce got most things right and in comparison to recent "injustices" both Bath and Sarries have suffered under referees/TMOs it was a very well refereed game.
I like the idea of RoG, who has spent a fair bit of his time at LaRo in the stands due to touchline bans, saying Farrell will have to be careful how he speaks to referees 😀
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:13:14:51 by OldMarovian.
Farrell's issue is the manner and tone in which he berates referees.
Compare and contrast with the way Jamie George or Finn Russell do it - with humour and respect.
Farrell just moans and questions in an aggressive way. It is a terrible example and why he is so widely disliked for all his other qualities.
Compare and contrast with the way Jamie George or Finn Russell do it - with humour and respect.
Farrell just moans and questions in an aggressive way. It is a terrible example and why he is so widely disliked for all his other qualities.
Quote:P G Tips
To be fair, that was a pretty uncharacteristic Pearce performance. As I said in an earlier post, he is usually hot on speed of breakdown and on offside. Had he been on Friday I believe that we would have seen less kicking -even from two teams who bas their game plan on it-and less niggle.
Not sure his relationship with captains is holding him back. usually i think his manner with them is good.
PG
Really highlighted how a poor refereeing performance can negatively impact the entertainment value of a game. By ignoring the antics of both 9’s, allowing Sarries to get away with illegally slowing down the ball at every ruck and meetings before all lineouts turned the game into a bit of a tedious affair.
Quote:Dorset Boy
Farrell's issue is the manner and tone in which he berates referees.
Compare and contrast with the way Jamie George or Finn Russell do it - with humour and respect.
Farrell just moans and questions in an aggressive way. It is a terrible example and why he is so widely disliked for all his other qualities.
I thought that was just his 'normal' North-country accent; they always sound like they are moaning, when they speak.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:P G Tips
To be fair, that was a pretty uncharacteristic Pearce performance. As I said in an earlier post, he is usually hot on speed of breakdown and on offside. Had he been on Friday I believe that we would have seen less kicking -even from two teams who bas their game plan on it-and less niggle.
Not sure his relationship with captains is holding him back. usually i think his manner with them is good.
PG
Really highlighted how a poor refereeing performance can negatively impact the entertainment value of a game. By ignoring the antics of both 9’s, allowing Sarries to get away with illegally slowing down the ball at every ruck and meetings before all lineouts turned the game into a bit of a tedious affair.
This is my concern about referees. We are now in a situation where a referees performance affects the game, perhaps not the result but definitely the points scored.
However, the justified criticism gets interpreted as 'abuse'. If the referees are overloaded with things to monitor then they need help from automation.
Before and after every match now it's "who is the ref?" and "did the do a good job?"
Rush defences demand the offside to be enforced and breakdowns to be fair or the game just disintegrates. Frankly it's spoiling the enjoyment of games.
Oddly though, I’d still argue that the better the referee, the better the game is to watch, and I’ve always said that games referred by Barnes and now Pearce have a rhythm to them because, for the most part, they set their stall out early, have the respect of and communicate brilliantly with the players, and so create an environment where the game flows.
Friday was odd, because in trying to blow his whistle as little as possible (zero breakdown pens, no hurrying up, being told to play away from collapsed scrums etc) and let the game flow, Pearce created the perfect conditions for two teams who wanted to play slow, to play REALLY slow. I’m surprised he didn’t do his ‘I’m going to countdown from 5’ as if to a toddler thing.
Having said that I think I’m in the minority because I really enjoyed the spectacle of the game (result and frustration aside). It was fascinating. Heavyweight chess or whatever as both sides, and their half backs, tried to get territory. The caginess also built and eventually gave way to a mad conclusion. I’ve no problem with that sort of game- as long as it’s not every game. Yes, im a bit of a rugby nut, so I can see how a casual fan might not have ‘got it’ but I thought it was odd how negative the TV coverage was of it. Healey moaning on and on. Mullins backing him up. Surprised they didn’t big up the intensity, the nerves and tension etc. but Healey just seemed in a bad mood all game.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Friday was odd, because in trying to blow his whistle as little as possible (zero breakdown pens, no hurrying up, being told to play away from collapsed scrums etc) and let the game flow, Pearce created the perfect conditions for two teams who wanted to play slow, to play REALLY slow. I’m surprised he didn’t do his ‘I’m going to countdown from 5’ as if to a toddler thing.
Having said that I think I’m in the minority because I really enjoyed the spectacle of the game (result and frustration aside). It was fascinating. Heavyweight chess or whatever as both sides, and their half backs, tried to get territory. The caginess also built and eventually gave way to a mad conclusion. I’ve no problem with that sort of game- as long as it’s not every game. Yes, im a bit of a rugby nut, so I can see how a casual fan might not have ‘got it’ but I thought it was odd how negative the TV coverage was of it. Healey moaning on and on. Mullins backing him up. Surprised they didn’t big up the intensity, the nerves and tension etc. but Healey just seemed in a bad mood all game.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
I thought it was a really intense game, very low error count from both teams. Frustrating result obviously, but I like variety in rugby games.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Oddly though, I’d still argue that the better the referee, the better the game is to watch, and I’ve always said that games referred by Barnes and now Pearce have a rhythm to them because, for the most part, they set their stall out early, have the respect of and communicate brilliantly with the players, and so create an environment where the game flows.
Friday was odd, because in trying to blow his whistle as little as possible (zero breakdown pens, no hurrying up, being told to play away from collapsed scrums etc) and let the game flow, Pearce created the perfect conditions for two teams who wanted to play slow, to play REALLY slow. I’m surprised he didn’t do his ‘I’m going to countdown from 5’ as if to a toddler thing.
Having said that I think I’m in the minority because I really enjoyed the spectacle of the game (result and frustration aside). It was fascinating. Heavyweight chess or whatever as both sides, and their half backs, tried to get territory. The caginess also built and eventually gave way to a mad conclusion. I’ve no problem with that sort of game- as long as it’s not every game. Yes, im a bit of a rugby nut, so I can see how a casual fan might not have ‘got it’ but I thought it was odd how negative the TV coverage was of it. Healey moaning on and on. Mullins backing him up. Surprised they didn’t big up the intensity, the nerves and tension etc. but Healey just seemed in a bad mood all game.
Agree with all of this. They also seemed to forget this was akin to knock out rugby with both sides aware of just how important every point may be.
As previously stated up thread, Jamie George stated it was test match intensity, and test matches are rarely free flowing affairs
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Agree with the above. Obviously with skin in the game it's easier to be involved and I appreciate spectacle, quality and intensity aren't always the same thing but I found it kept me involved for 80.
I also think there was an intensity to the game and play that was lacking in the Quins/Saints game.
I also think there was an intensity to the game and play that was lacking in the Quins/Saints game.
Quote:hasta
I thought it was a really intense game, very low error count from both teams. Frustrating result obviously, but I like variety in rugby games.
I like variety as well Hasta, but on Friday there wasn't any it was just a boring kick fest. Sure it was interesting for us and Sarries fans because of what was at stake. But equally I'm disappointed neither side wanted to play any fast flowing rugby.
Agree OB. Want whatever team I support to be brave and go out and try to win, rather than looking to stay in the fight and see where it gets you.
Quote:Mike the Taxi
I thought that was just his 'normal' North-country accent; they always sound like they are moaning, when they speak.
What is this North- country accent of which you speak?!
30+ years married to a Geordie I'd have to dispute that it all sounds like moaning - and if you're from Northumberland, Farrell's really just from the Midlands, the true North starting halfway across the Tyne.
And advertising companies aren't stupid and they're obsessed with using Northern voices, as are TV channels. Meant to be warm, friendly and sincere. I'm not saying this through any bias. I'm from the Mids. No one wants to listen to a Mids accent. We're all thick apparently. And Scouse accents aren't in much demand either!
There was variety on Friday. The Itoje yellow led to Bath opening it up a bit and then in the second half we started to really play. Last 20 minutes there was some fantastic rugby by both sides. Also, Sarries played less rugby than us and won the game, and I bet their fans aren’t complaining about the quality of the spectacle or the game plan.
You don’t see 4 up front in the first 30 minutes when City play Arsenal, or Australia being 180-1 at lunch in a test match (obvs Bazball is the exception! … maybe successfully, maybe not), or Djokovic going for high risk winners in the first half of the first set. I don’t think we were trying to “stay in the fight” - it was a game plan to gain field position that was a bit of luck or a refereeing decision in the last 5 minutes away from getting a win v the champs.
I know, no one’s talking about all out attack and yes we could’ve played a bit more in the first half. But this season it’s wrong to think we play much in our own half. We are conservative first. I think we kick the most in the league, esp with Finn. In other games, however, the oppo back 3 didn’t deal with it as expertly as Sarries and this led to us having field position which we then launched our excellently coached attack from. It’s Bristol that go every time from 100m - not us - and I’m glad that both styles can exist in the same sport and league. Oddly, I’d prefer to watch us, but that’s just me!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
You don’t see 4 up front in the first 30 minutes when City play Arsenal, or Australia being 180-1 at lunch in a test match (obvs Bazball is the exception! … maybe successfully, maybe not), or Djokovic going for high risk winners in the first half of the first set. I don’t think we were trying to “stay in the fight” - it was a game plan to gain field position that was a bit of luck or a refereeing decision in the last 5 minutes away from getting a win v the champs.
I know, no one’s talking about all out attack and yes we could’ve played a bit more in the first half. But this season it’s wrong to think we play much in our own half. We are conservative first. I think we kick the most in the league, esp with Finn. In other games, however, the oppo back 3 didn’t deal with it as expertly as Sarries and this led to us having field position which we then launched our excellently coached attack from. It’s Bristol that go every time from 100m - not us - and I’m glad that both styles can exist in the same sport and league. Oddly, I’d prefer to watch us, but that’s just me!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Sarries played less rugby than Bath?!
You need a rewatch Dr.Bath. All the flowing, multi-phase attacking rugby was coming from the team in white and black! Your lads (even the backs) were great from 1 metre out though 😉
You need a rewatch Dr.Bath. All the flowing, multi-phase attacking rugby was coming from the team in white and black! Your lads (even the backs) were great from 1 metre out though 😉
Your tries were undoubtedly ‘better looking’ than ours OM! But neither side wanted to play any rugby in their own half and I’d guess the stats show that Bath won the territory battle, kicked less, made more passes and generally just threw it about a touch more because of the Itoje yellow and the fact we were more often in the right areas of the field. But essentially both sides were playing the same game plan- which was to get out of their own half before attacking.
Undoubtedly the best bit of rugby was also the decisive bit- with the Farrell pick up and offload, the Tomkins timing and the Dann break and chip ahead. Beautiful stuff.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Undoubtedly the best bit of rugby was also the decisive bit- with the Farrell pick up and offload, the Tomkins timing and the Dann break and chip ahead. Beautiful stuff.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
To be fair OM, a few seasons ago, I’d have been saying how Sarries are always EVEN more boring that we EVER can be, but the last few years the attacking rugby added by Sarries on top of the kick kick kick chase chase chase excellence has been great to see. Looks like what we’re aspiring to do over JVG’s first 3 seasons, so hopefully next year we’ll be even more rounded and easy on the eye… as and when the situation requires.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Not asking us to run it from our own line, but to kick everything into the sky, ad nauseum, to me shows a lack of variety. I also think if you're asking £100+ for tickets there's some onus on Bath to try and entertain, but fully get that to lads if people it's the result that's most important. I'm actually thinking that maybe we could have had a better chance of winning if we'd varied our tactics as they dealt with our kicking game very well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:18:43:30 by TomReagan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:18:43:30 by TomReagan.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Undoubtedly the best bit of rugby was also the decisive bit- with the Farrell pick up and offload, the Tomkins timing and the Dann break and chip ahead. Beautiful stuff.
Look again OM.
The first two passes are forward.
PG
Results around the league make it an interesting position from now. Some interesting results in the league make it a very interesting finish. 7 teams in the running - cannot ask for more really from a watchability perspective.
Unfortunately for us I can’t see any real way we get a home Semi. I can’t look past it now finishing Saints 62 / Sarries 61 / Bath 60.
It’s now out of our hands realistically - requires for Sarries to lose or not pick up a bonus in both games - which I doubt.
Seeming like an away trip to the Stone-x inbound. 1st would have been great as it seems like it will be Bristol. Who I think are not anywhere near as good as their last games have made out.
Unfortunately for us I can’t see any real way we get a home Semi. I can’t look past it now finishing Saints 62 / Sarries 61 / Bath 60.
It’s now out of our hands realistically - requires for Sarries to lose or not pick up a bonus in both games - which I doubt.
Seeming like an away trip to the Stone-x inbound. 1st would have been great as it seems like it will be Bristol. Who I think are not anywhere near as good as their last games have made out.
Quote:joethefanatic
I thought OB2 had a good overall game but he doesn't get that extra 1% out of everybody that Finn does. I think with Finn at 10, we win that match
The biggest difference Finn makes is in the way Spencer plays. I think we could have won on Friday if we’d played through 10. I can’t recall a single Bailey kick. Saracens certainly seemed to anticipate that, dealing with box-kicks relatively comfortably.
Quote:But Briz, when it clicks, can be very good. It'll be interesting to see how they do v Sarries in their next game and whether Sarries kick as much ball to them as they did on Friday. I'm sort of hoping for a Sarries win. Gives us a better chance of making the playoffs, even with an away fixture. I'll see that as a decent season, even if we don't make the final, and, most importantly, it'll pretty much put Briz out of the running. I don't think we'll be champs, Briz on their day can beat anyone and regularly beat Saints, and if they were to be champions, following on from Ipswich being promoted to the Prem, I'm not sure I could stand the misery!HK890
Results around the league make it an interesting position from now. Some interesting results in the league make it a very interesting finish. 7 teams in the running - cannot ask for more really from a watchability perspective.
Unfortunately for us I can’t see any real way we get a home Semi. I can’t look past it now finishing Saints 62 / Sarries 61 / Bath 60.
It’s now out of our hands realistically - requires for Sarries to lose or not pick up a bonus in both games - which I doubt.
Seeming like an away trip to the Stone-x inbound. 1st would have been great as it seems like it will be Bristol. Who I think are not anywhere near as good as their last games have made out.
Quote:TomReaganQuote:But Briz, when it clicks, can be very good. It'll be interesting to see how they do v Sarries in their next game and whether Sarries kick as much ball to them as they did on Friday. I'm sort of hoping for a Sarries win. Gives us a better chance of making the playoffs, even with an away fixture. I'll see that as a decent season, even if we don't make the final, and, most importantly, it'll pretty much put Briz out of the running. I don't think we'll be champs, Briz on their day can beat anyone and regularly beat Saints, and if they were to be champions, following on from Ipswich being promoted to the Prem, I'm not sure I could stand the misery!HK890
Results around the league make it an interesting position from now. Some interesting results in the league make it a very interesting finish. 7 teams in the running - cannot ask for more really from a watchability perspective.
Unfortunately for us I can’t see any real way we get a home Semi. I can’t look past it now finishing Saints 62 / Sarries 61 / Bath 60.
It’s now out of our hands realistically - requires for Sarries to lose or not pick up a bonus in both games - which I doubt.
Seeming like an away trip to the Stone-x inbound. 1st would have been great as it seems like it will be Bristol. Who I think are not anywhere near as good as their last games have made out.
Agreed overall - Start of the season I thought we’d get to Prem Semi and then maybe push a Champs QF. So overall cannot complain.
But when you’re in the position we are now with by the time of the Playoffs a full strength team, you just can’t miss out on a prem final. Whilst it’s unlikely we break the mould of Home Semi wins, Stone X is not what it used to be.
On the Bristol front I think the Saints game was a massive massive blip - and whilst the go from anywhere worked against Falcons they were dominated throughout the Tigers game until the last 9 minutes.
Expect we will be playing sarries in the playoff it’s just whether it’s home or away.
"Clear and obvious" PG? Not for me with my Sarries-specs 😀
Not confident we'll win both of our last two and would be amazed if we do with 2 TBPs so in my view 2nd spot very much up for grabs and you've an almost certain 5 point game in your last two and a decent chance of Saints resting for the last. I'd say given the fixtures youre still favourites for 2nd.
Really enjoying how tight it is in the table.
Also interesting that some teams have definite bogey teams. Ours used to be LI. We are probably Quins and as said above Bristol seem to be Saints. Do Bath have one of are they someone's?
Not confident we'll win both of our last two and would be amazed if we do with 2 TBPs so in my view 2nd spot very much up for grabs and you've an almost certain 5 point game in your last two and a decent chance of Saints resting for the last. I'd say given the fixtures youre still favourites for 2nd.
Really enjoying how tight it is in the table.
Also interesting that some teams have definite bogey teams. Ours used to be LI. We are probably Quins and as said above Bristol seem to be Saints. Do Bath have one of are they someone's?
Quote:OptimistQuote:joethefanatic
I thought OB2 had a good overall game but he doesn't get that extra 1% out of everybody that Finn does. I think with Finn at 10, we win that match
The biggest difference Finn makes is in the way Spencer plays. I think we could have won on Friday if we’d played through 10. I can’t recall a single Bailey kick. Saracens certainly seemed to anticipate that, dealing with box-kicks relatively comfortably.
Completely agree 100%, Spencer simply doesn't trust Bailey in the same way he does Finn and takes control. I find it hard to believe our coaches go along with this.
Until this season we've been rubbish away from home for quite a while so we're no one's bogey side. Hasta knows this sort of stuff but my gut feeling is that as well as always losing to Sarries and Exe, who've been very strong for quite a while, we're pretty bad v Briz, almost as bad v Sale and rarely win at Saints. Doesn't leave much, but not too bad v Glos, Tigers, Quins and Falcons. Put simply, as HK890 said, think we'll need a home semi to progress but obviously we're a much stronger proposition this year.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:21:48:28 by TomReagan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:28:21:48:28 by TomReagan.
We were Ex's bogey team for ages and then it flipped. Tbh we were so rubbish for so long that I think any bogeys we still held on teams are long gone. And I don't think Newcastle counts.
Probably most annoying current bogey is Bristol away.
Probably most annoying current bogey is Bristol away.
“if they were to be champions, following on from Ipswich being promoted to the Prem, I'm not sure I could stand the misery!“
Ipswich are far from certain to get 2nd but I’m sorry to say I’m rooting for them. I’d quite like us to sign their manager though!
Ipswich are far from certain to get 2nd but I’m sorry to say I’m rooting for them. I’d quite like us to sign their manager though!
Quote:OldMarovian
"Clear and obvious" PG? Not for me with my Sarries-specs 😀
The game would be in quite a state if refs had to rely on Sarries- specs OM!😀
PG
[inews.co.uk]
Innocent until proven guilty etc
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:10:21:31 by Which Tyler.
Quote:England rugby star Billy Vunipola ‘tasered’ during Spanish bar arrest
Eight officers apprehend Saracens forward after he threatened staff and customers with bottles and chairs, according to local reports
Innocent until proven guilty etc
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:10:21:31 by Which Tyler.
Pretty extraordinary story.
"The 31-year-old was taken to the Son Espases Hospital where he is said to have been strapped down and sedated." Really?
"Vunipola was released by Saracens following their win over Bath on Friday night." Is that correct then?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
"The 31-year-old was taken to the Son Espases Hospital where he is said to have been strapped down and sedated." Really?
"Vunipola was released by Saracens following their win over Bath on Friday night." Is that correct then?
I suspect it's "released" as in "released to go on holiday as it's 15 days until our next match"
Sarries seem to be "no comment"ing it, and surely they wouldn't terminate his contract without charges being brought (or have they, and I missed that bit whilst skimming the article?).
Either way, it looks like it's a developing story, and mostly taken from an article in the local rag in Spain, with nothing much to add yet.
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:10:27:13 by Which Tyler.
Sarries seem to be "no comment"ing it, and surely they wouldn't terminate his contract without charges being brought (or have they, and I missed that bit whilst skimming the article?).
Either way, it looks like it's a developing story, and mostly taken from an article in the local rag in Spain, with nothing much to add yet.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:10:27:13 by Which Tyler.
Yes, sounds like there is some truth in it, enough for the Sarries PR team to get involved at least.
[saracens.com]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:10:54:27 by BathMatt53.
[saracens.com]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:10:54:27 by BathMatt53.
Quote:shipwrecked
Completely agree 100%, Spencer simply doesn't trust Bailey in the same way he does Finn and takes control. I find it hard to believe our coaches go along with this.
Am i right in my recollection that Bailey barely launched a single kick? If you're going to pressure the opposition with high/contestable kicks, surely you need to vary the place from where that kick is delivered? If the 9 sets up to box-kick there is almost zero chance of them subtly or radically varying the play - whereas if the ball travels to 10 - even if they are positioned in or towards the pocket, they still have so many different options available - cross-kick, bomb, grubber, dink, pass, carry.
Bailey carried a fair bit - quite often because Sarries seemed to have read the inside runner and so cut that option off for him, forcing him to carry. But it still feels that Spencer gave him way too little responsibility.
Agree Opti, box kicks go in one direction only up the touch line, not only that they are basically blind and because of that they are predictable.
If you are going to play a kicking strategy it has to be varied, sides like Leinster use players like Lowe to find grass. Sarries use Daly similarly.
My feeling is that Bath need another 9 that is comparable with Bailey's strengths, TCS may be that 9 but as 3rd choice that's not often. Bailey does tend to get involved in breakdowns too often for me but if he isn't getting ball has little choice.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
If you are going to play a kicking strategy it has to be varied, sides like Leinster use players like Lowe to find grass. Sarries use Daly similarly.
My feeling is that Bath need another 9 that is comparable with Bailey's strengths, TCS may be that 9 but as 3rd choice that's not often. Bailey does tend to get involved in breakdowns too often for me but if he isn't getting ball has little choice.
Quote:shipwrecked
"Vunipola was released by Saracens following their win over Bath on Friday night." Is that correct then?
Depends on if you have a source for that quote I guess as it doesn't seem to appear in the article linked above unless ive missed something?
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:shipwrecked
"Vunipola was released by Saracens following their win over Bath on Friday night." Is that correct then?
Depends on if you have a source for that quote I guess as it doesn't seem to appear in the article linked above unless ive missed something?
That was a direct copy from the original article referred to in WT's comment later in the thread. Seems to have been removed now in the update "(Updated 11:24 am)"
Saw a slightly different angle of the Faz/ref/Annett exchange today.
Having had the usual 'Faz is such a d***' reaction live, it was actually pretty funny to be fair.
Having had the usual 'Faz is such a d***' reaction live, it was actually pretty funny to be fair.
Paid his fine and flying home ! Here
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Billy's telling a different story to the police but there's evidently footage so the truth will out.
Not a great look for him at all.
Not a great look for him at all.
It’s the strapped to a hospital bed and sedated that’s concerning!
If it’s true that is, hard to believe when there is a photo of him walking into the police station with just one officer.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
If it’s true that is, hard to believe when there is a photo of him walking into the police station with just one officer.
Quote:TomReagan
Briz on their day can beat anyone and regularly beat Saints, and if they were to be champions, following on from Ipswich being promoted to the Prem, I'm not sure I could stand the misery!
Not bothered about Ipswich Tom, but couldn't agree more with your sentiments on Bristol. I'd go even further and say I'd rather an away semi-final at Sarries than home to Bristol. Having to put up with them at the Rec again and also potentially not winning would be too much to cope with.
Also tickets for an away semi-final will be cheaper than at the Rec...
To lose to Saracens, Northampton or Quins would not be a disgrace but to lose out to Bristol would be devastating
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:17:02:38 by Francis Allen.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:29:17:02:38 by Francis Allen.
Indeed! Wouldn't be a disgrace as they're playing some great rugby, but devastating...absolutely!
Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
Completely agree 100%, Spencer simply doesn't trust Bailey in the same way he does Finn and takes control. I find it hard to believe our coaches go along with this.
Am i right in my recollection that Bailey barely launched a single kick? If you're going to pressure the opposition with high/contestable kicks, surely you need to vary the place from where that kick is delivered? If the 9 sets up to box-kick there is almost zero chance of them subtly or radically varying the play - whereas if the ball travels to 10 - even if they are positioned in or towards the pocket, they still have so many different options available - cross-kick, bomb, grubber, dink, pass, carry.
Bailey carried a fair bit - quite often because Sarries seemed to have read the inside runner and so cut that option off for him, forcing him to carry. But it still feels that Spencer gave him way too little responsibility.
Bailey’s stats from the weekend - Ranking of all players
18 Carries - 4th
20 Passes - 3rd
3 Kicks -
8 defenders beaten - 1st
37 metres made - 5th
Some interesting stats - a clear gameplan - which form my opinion suits his play style. He’s not being asked to do something he’s not good at hence why he’s slotted in so well for us.
Quote:HK890Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
Completely agree 100%, Spencer simply doesn't trust Bailey in the same way he does Finn and takes control. I find it hard to believe our coaches go along with this.
Am i right in my recollection that Bailey barely launched a single kick? If you're going to pressure the opposition with high/contestable kicks, surely you need to vary the place from where that kick is delivered? If the 9 sets up to box-kick there is almost zero chance of them subtly or radically varying the play - whereas if the ball travels to 10 - even if they are positioned in or towards the pocket, they still have so many different options available - cross-kick, bomb, grubber, dink, pass, carry.
Bailey carried a fair bit - quite often because Sarries seemed to have read the inside runner and so cut that option off for him, forcing him to carry. But it still feels that Spencer gave him way too little responsibility.
Bailey’s stats from the weekend - Ranking of all players
18 Carries - 4th
20 Passes - 3rd
3 Kicks -
8 defenders beaten - 1st
37 metres made - 5th
Some interesting stats - a clear gameplan - which form my opinion suits his play style. He’s not being asked to do something he’s not good at hence why he’s slotted in so well for us.
For any player not being constantly compared with Finn Russell, those are outstanding stats.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
It was notable that we didn't try any of the kicks in behind against Sarries that we did against Exeter. Obviously they're different defensive styles, but struck me as odd that it wasn't at least tried.
18 carries is an awful lot and he made some reallly good metres in very, very constricted spaces. But he was forced to carry more than would have been the plan by Sarries cutting off the inside pass option. And by the time he'd turned his shoulders inwards, the outside option was pretty much gone too. And as SW says above, he ended up at the bottom of the ruck a few times too many as a consequence.
I still maintain that - if kicking was the plan - then it would have been better for us to vary the kicking between 9 and 10 much more. I don't believe Bailey's kicking out of hand is inadequate for that task, but if it is, then why not use Gallagher at first receiver occasionally.
I still maintain that - if kicking was the plan - then it would have been better for us to vary the kicking between 9 and 10 much more. I don't believe Bailey's kicking out of hand is inadequate for that task, but if it is, then why not use Gallagher at first receiver occasionally.
If one aspect of a fly half's game dominates then the effectiveness of the 10 is seriously eroded as they simply become predictable. Next game what tactic would any Prem coach employ against Bath?
No kicking threat, this 10 carries so let loose the back row.
The other problem when you only have ONE 10 is the danger of him getting injured under a pile of bodies. Then what?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
No kicking threat, this 10 carries so let loose the back row.
The other problem when you only have ONE 10 is the danger of him getting injured under a pile of bodies. Then what?
Quote:
Too late for us.
Was a bunker review an option on the night?
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:
Too late for us.
Was a bunker review an option on the night?
The bunker isn't being used in European rugby at the moment, the World Cup obviously had it and Super Rugby are trying it out at the moment, but I haven't read anywhere that it's definitely going to become part and parcel of the global game.
I don't know how to do the link but Charlie Morgans twitter has a clip that whilst far from definitive, as Judge steps in the way, does rather suggest exactly what Pearce said. If there was any contact it was glancing.
I've little faith in the system (generally not specific to Sarries) and if he gets it upgraded I'd suggest that's harsh based on that video but wouldn't be surprised.
I've little faith in the system (generally not specific to Sarries) and if he gets it upgraded I'd suggest that's harsh based on that video but wouldn't be surprised.
It is unlikely not to get upgraded once cited.
This would be doubly hard on Bath:
1. should have been red and as such an early stage of the game could/would have impacted the result. the extra fatigue would have come into play in the 2nd half.
2. he will get 3 weeks reduced to 2 for 'tackle school' miss the last 2 league games and be fresh and available for a semi against Bath.
This would be doubly hard on Bath:
1. should have been red and as such an early stage of the game could/would have impacted the result. the extra fatigue would have come into play in the 2nd half.
2. he will get 3 weeks reduced to 2 for 'tackle school' miss the last 2 league games and be fresh and available for a semi against Bath.
I wonder whether they'll look at this part of the current protocol:
"Mitigation will not apply for intentional or always-illegal acts of foul play"
There's an argument that the tackler falls into the 2nd group given that they are upright throughout, so perhaps it technically shouldn't have been possible to downgrade it to a yellow.
My impression of the current laws is that:
Upright tackle + no head contact = rugby incident/play on (but this is more down to luck than anything)
Upright tackle + head contact (regardless of force) = red card
Lower tackle + head contact = red/yellow card (depending on mitigating factors)
It's obviously a fine line between playing on and going down a man, but I guess World Ruby need to disincentivise it somehow.
"Mitigation will not apply for intentional or always-illegal acts of foul play"
There's an argument that the tackler falls into the 2nd group given that they are upright throughout, so perhaps it technically shouldn't have been possible to downgrade it to a yellow.
My impression of the current laws is that:
Upright tackle + no head contact = rugby incident/play on (but this is more down to luck than anything)
Upright tackle + head contact (regardless of force) = red card
Lower tackle + head contact = red/yellow card (depending on mitigating factors)
It's obviously a fine line between playing on and going down a man, but I guess World Ruby need to disincentivise it somehow.
Quote:boozeboozebooze
I wonder whether they'll look at this part of the current protocol:
"Mitigation will not apply for intentional or always-illegal acts of foul play"
There's an argument that the tackler falls into the 2nd group given that they are upright throughout, so perhaps it technically shouldn't have been possible to downgrade it to a yellow.
My impression of the current laws is that:
Upright tackle + no head contact = rugby incident/play on (but this is more down to luck than anything)
Upright tackle + head contact (regardless of force) = red card
Lower tackle + head contact = red/yellow card (depending on mitigating factors)
It's obviously a fine line between playing on and going down a man, but I guess World Ruby need to disincentivise it somehow.
I'd add to that: Upright tackle + indirect head contact (regardless of force) = yellow card
Which is a failing of the current system for me.
I think that then means, sw, a conflict between "always an illegal act, no mitigation applies" and "indirect contact" (which is actually a mitigation) - so a judgement call by the panel.
Let's see what happens....
PG
Let's see what happens....
PG
It was a clear red at the time and for some reason the ref seemed to bottle it, but this citing doesn’t help Bath at all.
same way as he bottled the yellow on the winger who took Muir out without competing for the ball
Normally I’m against bans unless it was something malicious, one reason being that I think it benefits the other teams in the league as they play a weakened side.
In this case though, a Saracens loss is the most likely route to a home semi
In this case though, a Saracens loss is the most likely route to a home semi
Is there actually a law that says an upright tackle is illegal? If there is wouldn't that make every choke tackle illegal? I've looked before and never been able to find anything, so the "upright so always illegal" comment has always puzzled me. I can't ever recall an upright tackle being penalised, other than when has head contact, obviously.
No, I think it's just 9.13 - A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders.
Plus the Head Contact Process here: [resources.world.rugby]
If you're upright and don't make head contact you're fine (but taking a risk). If you're upright and do make head contact, you were always in a risky position.
Plus the Head Contact Process here: [resources.world.rugby]
If you're upright and don't make head contact you're fine (but taking a risk). If you're upright and do make head contact, you were always in a risky position.
I have been fairly consistent in thinking it was a red watching live, thinking it was a red after watching the replays and still thinking it's a red.
I tend to prefer refs to look for mitigation where possible and keep 15 vs 15 but I personally didn't see it as glancing or indirect (and not sure how much that mattered anyway as he still clattered his head whilst bolt upright, tackling someone who was bolt upright, was the aggressor, had clear line of sight and plenty of reaction time) but its probably my middle aged failing eyes tbh.
As others have said a retrospective red would be frustrating and sure not the first overturned decision to go against us this season (maybe I am misremembering as feeling generally a bit hard done by after the officiating at Welford Road and the stoop).
Be interesting to see the verdict. Won't help sarries against bris if he cops a ban.
I tend to prefer refs to look for mitigation where possible and keep 15 vs 15 but I personally didn't see it as glancing or indirect (and not sure how much that mattered anyway as he still clattered his head whilst bolt upright, tackling someone who was bolt upright, was the aggressor, had clear line of sight and plenty of reaction time) but its probably my middle aged failing eyes tbh.
As others have said a retrospective red would be frustrating and sure not the first overturned decision to go against us this season (maybe I am misremembering as feeling generally a bit hard done by after the officiating at Welford Road and the stoop).
Be interesting to see the verdict. Won't help sarries against bris if he cops a ban.
Quote:Charlieboa1
... but I personally didn't see it as glancing or indirect
Have you watched the Charlie Morgan clip Charlie?
I'm honestly struggling to see how someone can watch it and say its conclusive from that.
The replay shown in the match looked awful but it was from the other side and didn't actually show any contact.
It also may sound silly but I think both Barbearys hair and him carrying the ball so high contributed to it looking more "whiplashy" than it was.
Obviously happy to accept/own my own bias in viewing!
😉
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:30:18:53:11 by OldMarovian.
Quote:shipwrecked
If one aspect of a fly half's game dominates then the effectiveness of the 10 is seriously eroded as they simply become predictable. Next game what tactic would any Prem coach employ against Bath?
No kicking threat, this 10 carries so let loose the back row.
The other problem when you only have ONE 10 is the danger of him getting injured under a pile of bodies. Then what?
Agreed if players truly are one dimensional- But we saw from Bailey that when he did kick they were on the money and opened up Sarries - Mainly that chip to Muir.
Bailey and Bath are a lot cleverer than to allow that to happen. If he was to be targeted you can bet your dollar that he will start variations his game.
Against Exeter he had double the kicks (6) which was second highest of the match.
Also have to account that we were kicking to compete against sarries which will mostly be done by the 9.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:Charlieboa1
... but I personally didn't see it as glancing or indirect
Have you watched the Charlie Morgan clip Charlie?
I'm honestly struggling to see how someone can watch it and say its conclusive from that.
The replay shown in the match looked awful but it was from the other side and didn't actually show any contact.
It also may sound silly but I think both Barbearys hair and him carrying the ball so high contributed to it looking more "whiplashy" than it was.
Obviously happy to accept/own my own bias in viewing!
😉
Do you have a link OM? Not seen it. Who is charlie Morgan?
I think it's probably a borderline call and that's absolutely fine but when you are again on the wrong side of that thin line a few mins later it can be frustrating.
In the leic away we lived on tbe wrong side of the thin line according to Mr dickson but the only officiating this season I have a major issue with is the quins binning.
Otherwise these things even themselves up but not likely the 9 other clubs will get to play against the wrong number of opposition in a tight game.
Quote:hasta
Telegraph journo - pretty decent on rugby. [x.com]
Thanks hasta. Not sure that tells us much more.
Looks like left hand side of ijojes head hits the left hand side of barbearys head to me with his left shoulder probably hitting barbearys chin but hard to tell cos of judge.
Is there a percentage of one person's head hitting a percentage of the other person's head that makes it dangerous?
As I say borderline call and if segum had been binned maybe its less frustrating.
Let's see what comes out in the wash
I want us to be able to beat Sarries with 15v15, I don't want to be relying on marginal reds which wouldn't have been a red 5-10 years ago (Faz's swinging arm was another matter)
I also don't appreciate that a ban would do nothing to benefit the club 'wronged' and actually benefit other sides in the playoff race.
I think if Pearce had called it a red, it'd have stood. I think having called it a yellow, it'll stay a yellow. I've seen 'softer' reds and 'harder’ yellows...
I also don't appreciate that a ban would do nothing to benefit the club 'wronged' and actually benefit other sides in the playoff race.
I think if Pearce had called it a red, it'd have stood. I think having called it a yellow, it'll stay a yellow. I've seen 'softer' reds and 'harder’ yellows...
Yup Charlie that's a fair point re marginal calls and I'd probably feel similar if the situation were reversed.
Quote:OldMarovian
Yup Charlie that's a fair point re marginal calls and I'd probably feel similar if the situation were reversed.
As you said OM the tdt try felt a marginal call as well so swings and roundabouts generally (except when the officials let you play with more players on the pitch than you should have like quins)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:01:06:28:54 by Charlieboa1.
Have to say at the time I thought probable Red as did my mates at the game live - the Sarries supporter in front of us went “That is Red” - Itoje had a very clear line of sight at no time did he attempt to bend at the hips and threw his shoulder forward to make a big dominant hit not an absorbing hit so always foul play - mitigating circumstances??? At the time I could not see any.
My son was watching it on TV and said Pearce just was dismissive and would not listen to the TMO and wanted to move on as quick as possible - he thought it was strange he didn’t examine all the angles.
Maybe the issue is as good as Luke Pearce is he is just not getting the games for whatever reason he needs to be officiating every weekend.
TBH this weekend our 2 senior officials have bottled Card decisions both of which once again would have had an affect of the outcome of both games and both involve Senior England Players. Let us see what the panel think - if he gets a ban it confirms Pearce got it totally wrong.
I would add I thought Sarries deserved their win and hopefully as JvG said we have learned a lot from the game. It also showed just how far this team have come this season to go toe to toe with that Sarries side in that environment. Personally I took a lot of positives from the game and hopefully Finn will be back for the run in.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:01:09:13:49 by Ali1969.
My son was watching it on TV and said Pearce just was dismissive and would not listen to the TMO and wanted to move on as quick as possible - he thought it was strange he didn’t examine all the angles.
Maybe the issue is as good as Luke Pearce is he is just not getting the games for whatever reason he needs to be officiating every weekend.
TBH this weekend our 2 senior officials have bottled Card decisions both of which once again would have had an affect of the outcome of both games and both involve Senior England Players. Let us see what the panel think - if he gets a ban it confirms Pearce got it totally wrong.
I would add I thought Sarries deserved their win and hopefully as JvG said we have learned a lot from the game. It also showed just how far this team have come this season to go toe to toe with that Sarries side in that environment. Personally I took a lot of positives from the game and hopefully Finn will be back for the run in.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:01:09:13:49 by Ali1969.
It seemed to me that Pearce simply wanted to keep the game moving and making quick decisions were all part of that so despite disagreeing with his decision I applaud his approach
Probably he was also starting with the aim of keeping players on the pitch unless evidence otherwise is compelling. If so then most would agree there, certainly DoRs
But wasn't the hearing yesterday? And still no decision public?
Probably he was also starting with the aim of keeping players on the pitch unless evidence otherwise is compelling. If so then most would agree there, certainly DoRs
But wasn't the hearing yesterday? And still no decision public?
That's my interpretation too of Pearce's style, gaz. On measure, I applaud it, even if he does miss/let a lot of stuff go. Personally, because I like almost every type of rugby, I like the variety that the refs bring to each game. Just as long as they are consistent IN game, then fine. One week Underhill wins four breakdown penalties... the next week, none. It means that a team needs to work out how to get the best out of the ref and the spectacle created is always slightly different.
Of course, it just proves that the 'laws' of the game are completely unfathomable and entirely subjective, but hey, if you want something more rigid, play chess.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Of course, it just proves that the 'laws' of the game are completely unfathomable and entirely subjective, but hey, if you want something more rigid, play chess.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:saracen1971
https://saracens.com/disciplinary-outcome-maro-itoje/
Sounds like barbeary may have done him a favour. Fair play if so
Luke Pearce, the most experienced and IMO the best, Prem referee decided yellow and the disciplinary panel backed that decision up, so I will accept that.
However, I have now watched -for the first time-the TNT footage shown to Pearce at the match. In real time, all the replays appeared to show direct head-on-head. So too did the slower replays viewed.
The citing therefore was quite understandable.
It will be interesting to read the full Disciplinary Report. As Charlie states, it may well be that player testimony, rather than video footage, was the decider in the panel's verdict.
PG
However, I have now watched -for the first time-the TNT footage shown to Pearce at the match. In real time, all the replays appeared to show direct head-on-head. So too did the slower replays viewed.
The citing therefore was quite understandable.
It will be interesting to read the full Disciplinary Report. As Charlie states, it may well be that player testimony, rather than video footage, was the decider in the panel's verdict.
PG
Link to the report is above PG.
"Panel chair, Philip Evans KC, said: "The panel heard and considered evidence from Maro Itoje and the Bath player and were able to examine the footage of the incident many times and from many different angles. In particular, the panel watched the footage from the rear view of Itoje which, when considered alongside the rest of the footage, demonstrated it was more likely than not that contact was not initially with the head or simultaneously with the head and the body. Instead, contact with the head appears to come later and can properly be described as more glancing than direct in nature."
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
"Panel chair, Philip Evans KC, said: "The panel heard and considered evidence from Maro Itoje and the Bath player and were able to examine the footage of the incident many times and from many different angles. In particular, the panel watched the footage from the rear view of Itoje which, when considered alongside the rest of the footage, demonstrated it was more likely than not that contact was not initially with the head or simultaneously with the head and the body. Instead, contact with the head appears to come later and can properly be described as more glancing than direct in nature."
Completely agree PG T. My only hope from there is that bar is applied consistently going forward
As someone has posted there have been numerous examples of softer reds and tougher yellows
As someone has posted there have been numerous examples of softer reds and tougher yellows
Yes, I read that sw- but that is an extract, not the report.
Usually the report will quote or summarise what the referee and witnesses said at the hearing.
PG
Usually the report will quote or summarise what the referee and witnesses said at the hearing.
PG
Interesting point from RMC about the depth in the squad right now. Stated how impactful it is having virtually three sides for training.
The strength of the 2nd and 3rd sides show how promising/well stocked we are
1st // 2nd // 3rd
Obano // Schoeman // Cordwell
Dunn // Annett // Faiva
TDT // Stuart // Griffin
Ewels // Stooke // Richards
Roux // JDP // McNally
Hill // Bayliss // GJ VV
Underhill // Reid // Staddon
Barbs // Coetzee // Merigan
Spencer // Schreuder // TCS
Finn // Bailey // Worboys
Muir // Grace // Goss
Redpath // Ojomoh // Wright
Lawrence // Butt // Hennessy
Cokansiga // RMC // Graham
TDG // Gallagher // Harris
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:04:09:08:20 by HK890.
The strength of the 2nd and 3rd sides show how promising/well stocked we are
1st // 2nd // 3rd
Obano // Schoeman // Cordwell
Dunn // Annett // Faiva
TDT // Stuart // Griffin
Ewels // Stooke // Richards
Roux // JDP // McNally
Hill // Bayliss // GJ VV
Underhill // Reid // Staddon
Barbs // Coetzee // Merigan
Spencer // Schreuder // TCS
Finn // Bailey // Worboys
Muir // Grace // Goss
Redpath // Ojomoh // Wright
Lawrence // Butt // Hennessy
Cokansiga // RMC // Graham
TDG // Gallagher // Harris
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:04:09:08:20 by HK890.
I'd probably have McConnochie ahead of one of the Graces; but absolutely, damned fine depth
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
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I know Match Thread for Falcons will be up shortly but I think this is a really interesting game team selection wise. Who plays and who’s rested - plus to what levels.
The mains people I look at that might deserve either a partial rest of full rest is Ewels/Barbs/Spencer/Lawrence then I imagine one of Joe/Muir will get a rest. Don’t really want to give anyone 2 weeks off preferably so I wouldn’t be surprised to see a loaded bench sent to falcons. Gives us the ability to decide their gametime depending on how the game is going. Safety net whilst also making sure they are ticking over.
A bench like ?
16. Faiva
17. Obano
18. Stuart
19. Ewels
20. Richards
21. Spencer
22. Lawrence
23. Barbs
The mains people I look at that might deserve either a partial rest of full rest is Ewels/Barbs/Spencer/Lawrence then I imagine one of Joe/Muir will get a rest. Don’t really want to give anyone 2 weeks off preferably so I wouldn’t be surprised to see a loaded bench sent to falcons. Gives us the ability to decide their gametime depending on how the game is going. Safety net whilst also making sure they are ticking over.
A bench like ?
16. Faiva
17. Obano
18. Stuart
19. Ewels
20. Richards
21. Spencer
22. Lawrence
23. Barbs
They've all just had a full week off, and they all had a full week off three weeks ago too. First choice selection from here on out.
Agree.
Fully loaded (with rotation where planned) except for mandatory rests for those needing them.
PG
Fully loaded (with rotation where planned) except for mandatory rests for those needing them.
PG
There won't be any mandatory rest periods, everyone's had two weeks off in the last four.
Agree, and Northampton will have had 3 in a row.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I would be shocked if JvG & Co do not go fully loaded from here to the end of the season - players have had quite a few weeks off now due to Europe etc - coupled with rotation throughout the season we should be fine.
They will not take Falcons lightly - especially given it is Falcons last home game of a desperate season.
On a positive note weather looks barmy for up there 20c during the day and most importantly no rain forecast at this time!
They will not take Falcons lightly - especially given it is Falcons last home game of a desperate season.
On a positive note weather looks barmy for up there 20c during the day and most importantly no rain forecast at this time!
The one big question mark against going full bore on selection is the risk of injury especially on the plastic grass at Newcastle
Would it be preferable to hold back some players at more risk like Obano and Joe?
Would it be preferable to hold back some players at more risk like Obano and Joe?
There's also a week between the last game of the regular season and the SFs.
Quote:gaz59
The one big question mark against going full bore on selection is the risk of injury especially on the plastic grass at Newcastle
Would it be preferable to hold back some players at more risk like Obano and Joe?
Interesting point gaz- I remain a worrier about plastic pitches. If anyone has any good science/ studies to alleviate that then much appreciated.
I think they just need to be sensible, judge the games and individuals on merit but don't see any need really to be managing game time at this stage.
Assume its falcons after a 14 day gap then saints after an 8 day gap and then hopefully a semi after 7 or 8 days... then hopefully 13 or 14 days til a final?
I can't see Europe not catching up on saints and quins at some stage but they aren't actually really racking up injuries? Just mentally and physically gave to keep going to the well for massive challenges
I would imagine in the case of Beno it will depend on the fitness and form of Juan Schoeman - it seems a waste to use Thomas Du Toit on LH unless you have to and it is definitely a strength of Falcons their set piece - with Joe it will depend on the fitness of RMC - I would imagine even if both don’t start they may well be on the bench.
You are right there is concern in relation to plastic pitches and knee injuries.
You are right there is concern in relation to plastic pitches and knee injuries.
Quote:Ali1969
I would imagine in the case of Beno it will depend on the fitness and form of Juan Schoeman - it seems a waste to use Thomas Du Toit on LH unless you have to and it is definitely a strength of Falcons their set piece - with Joe it will depend on the fitness of RMC - I would imagine even if both don’t start they may well be on the bench.
You are right there is concern in relation to plastic pitches and knee injuries.
I would be very surprised to not see Grace in the Falcons game. If that’s on the wing or the new trial at 15 we will see. Good chance we also see Griffins 1st start purely off him earning it. Been immense off the bench and will be good to see him get gametime.
Has schoeman been injured?
I assumed he had but maybe they just see our best combo as beno/ tdt and stuart/ griffin?
I assumed he had but maybe they just see our best combo as beno/ tdt and stuart/ griffin?
Quote:Ali1969
I would imagine in the case of Beno it will depend on the fitness and form of Juan Schoeman - it seems a waste to use Thomas Du Toit on LH unless you have to and it is definitely a strength of Falcons their set piece - with Joe it will depend on the fitness of RMC - I would imagine even if both don’t start they may well be on the bench.
You are right there is concern in relation to plastic pitches and knee injuries.
Interesting article on injuries on 3G/4G stating there is no real evidence that they are increased but there are provisos and it's looking at football.
"Dearing admitted that artificial surfaces had been shown to increase ankle strains - which in turn can lead to serious knee injuries - but stressed that a bespoke warm-up can prevent that."
Much of the data is old, 5-10 years (well summarised here)
There is no argument about burn injuries.
However, some players do seem to be more susceptible, Jack Nowell being an outspoken critic.
I think the warm up comment will almost certainly have been noted by our S and C team.
Interesting I do note a lot of players playing on plastic pitches are starting to wear skins/tracksuit bottoms.
I thought I read possibly in American Football that there were concerns raised in relation to burns and possible carcinogenic links.
I thought I read possibly in American Football that there were concerns raised in relation to burns and possible carcinogenic links.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:OldMarovianQuote:shipwrecked
"Vunipola was released by Saracens following their win over Bath on Friday night." Is that correct then?
Depends on if you have a source for that quote I guess as it doesn't seem to appear in the article linked above unless ive missed something?
That was a direct copy from the original article referred to in WT's comment later in the thread. Seems to have been removed now in the update "(Updated 11:24 am)"
Interesting that now it’s being stated that Vunipola is to leave Saracens on the BBC.
Is that a coincidence or was the original posting premature?
[www.bbc.co.uk]
I think their departure was pretty much an open secret, just not related to the incident in question (journalists putting 2 and 2 together, and coming up with 22)
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My favourite thing about this whole story is the headline on Ruck: 'Mako Vunipola follows brother out of Billy Vunipola'.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
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