Bath
5 Reasons To be Cheerful: Quins v Bath
By Rokobilly
October 17 2024
A second away game on the bounce gives Bath a chance to cement themselves as one of the league’s front runners as with over a quarter of the season already behind us. As always seems to be the case in this ten-team league, win and we could be top this time next week, lose and we could be dragged into mid-table.Should we win, it will be our 5th consecutive regular league win away in a row, a record that stretches back to last Easter. It doesn’t seem long ago that we went over 12 months without a win away from The Rec. How things have changed.In fact, our last defeat at the home of a Premiership rival was back in March, at, you’ve guessed it, The Stoop.Taking inspiration from our host’s numerical nickname, here’s 5 reasons we might just go one better on Saturday evening:
1. We won’t give them a 37-point lead again …
At least I hope we don’t. That game last season was ridiculous. We were 33-3 down at half-term, 40-3 down shortly afterwards and but for the shortest sin-binning on record could have snatched the win, eventually going down 40-36.
That game probably summed up what many outsiders thought of Quins: potentially deadly in attack but prone to periods where defence seemed optional.
This season has started differently. Quins are 9th out of 10 for most point scored (only ahead of Newcastle) but 2nd for least points conceded (behind only Leicester). For the record, Bath are 2nd and 5th.
Is this a new identity for Quins? Certainly, their defence was admirable against Saracens last week in a tight game allowing to beat their London rivals for the first time in nearly five years.
Having seen Bath play have to play catch-up against both Bristol and Gloucester in recent weeks, a more sober game would be welcome – if only for my blood pressure.
That said, Quins will have seen the footage of those games and may fancy letting Marcus Smith off the leash… if there is one reason to be nervous then our defence in open play is it. We can’t keep giving teams three-score leads and expect to win games.
2. We might have a first-choice winger back
After two weeks of makeshift back 3s, we may see Big Joe back this weekend after his post-HIA rest. With longer term injuries to Harris and Muir on-going and Austin Emens enduring a steep learning curve at Gloucester, a more experienced figure out wide will be welcome.
3. Rotation in the Pack
We started last week with three seasoned English international forwards (Underhill, Ewels and Stuart) and a bruising Bok (Coetzee) on the bench. Quinn Roux and Guy Pepper took the day off. It is feasible that all six could start this weekend.
That’s extraordinary depth to have at your disposal. As the bumps and bruises of 5 consecutive weeks of rugby start to make themselves felt, the ability to rotate and refresh up front is a very dangerous weapon. The extra day’s rest compared to the Quins’ pack won’t hurt either.
4. Goal line accuracy
Flagged by JVG last week as an area we needed to improve – and did – against Gloucester, taking our opportunities from five meters out are critical. Beno and TDT’s power game was excellent at Castle Grim as was some of the decision making to go wider at the appropriate point.
One particular pleasing moment for this viewer was Alfie’s pop pass to Beno to create the space for the first try. Too often our tap penalty routine has been Tom Dunn head-down-route-one in stark contrast to the way other teams vary the point of attack. It was a welcome innovation - which brings me to…
5. Lee Blackett
At The Stoop last week Saracens had 59% possession, made 2.5 x the number of passes, 5x the number of offloads, made over 100 more metres ball in hand and completed nearly 100 fewer tackles. And lost.
If we are going to beat the league’s second meanest defence, we will need a touch more spark and guile. Spencer and Russell will be key here but so will Lee Blackett. There are few better coaches in the league and plotting a way to the whitewash. I’d wager that those three will have plotted a few tricks for this weekend.
A Prediction?
Finn and Ben to control the game. The pack to edge it up front. A late Ollie Lawrence winner. Bath by 7.
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 17/10/2024 19:37
17/10/2024 19:37
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Great Roko, thanks.
Hopefully Joe C does make it. If Quins defence stays as mean as last week we should consider kicking early penalties and drop goals.
I also like the idea of strike moves from tap penalties. I would suggest at 5M lineouts too.
PG
Hopefully Joe C does make it. If Quins defence stays as mean as last week we should consider kicking early penalties and drop goals.
I also like the idea of strike moves from tap penalties. I would suggest at 5M lineouts too.
PG
Excellent review Roko, thanks.
I think this is the game Jaco starts at 8
Sir for the game Tom Foley assisted by Craig Maxwell-Keys and Greg McDonald
TMO Christophe Ridley
Hopefully on the ball !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I think this is the game Jaco starts at 8
Sir for the game Tom Foley assisted by Craig Maxwell-Keys and Greg McDonald
TMO Christophe Ridley
Hopefully on the ball !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Expecting a big break down battle with this one. If we can stop Kenningham and Evans spoiling our ball I think we win.
Next couple of weeks feel big, and this on paper seem to be the more winnable game. But you can't overlook that they just smothered Sarries
I think we'll see a step up in intensity closer to what we saw against Saints. Joe C would be a massive boost - Finn has struggled with trust in the deputies the last couple of weeks when looking for those flat balls, and Joe brings a lot in terms of kick-chase
I think we'll see a step up in intensity closer to what we saw against Saints. Joe C would be a massive boost - Finn has struggled with trust in the deputies the last couple of weeks when looking for those flat balls, and Joe brings a lot in terms of kick-chase
Anyone know if Quins came out of the Sarries game mostly unscathed?
It was so physical and attritional that it wouldn't surprise me if the odd player picked up a knock (even if they weren't subbed during the match).
It was so physical and attritional that it wouldn't surprise me if the odd player picked up a knock (even if they weren't subbed during the match).
Teams up: Bath Rugby XV: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Guy Pepper, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Ben Spencer ©, 10 Finn Russell, 11 Austin Emens, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Tom de Glanville
Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Ewan Richards, 20 Ted Hill, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Jaco Coetzee
Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Ewan Richards, 20 Ted Hill, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Jaco Coetzee
Quins lineup:
1. Fin Baxter
2. Jack Walker
3. Titi Lamositele
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Dino Lamb
6. Jack Kenningham
7. Will Evans
8. Alex Dombrandt
9. Will Porter
10. Marcus Smith
11. Cadan Murley
12. Luke Northmore
13. Oscar Beard
14. Rodrigo Isgro
15. Tyrone Green
16. Nathan Jibulu
17. Joe Marler
18. Dillon Lewis
19. Irne Herbst
20. Chandler Cunningham-South
21. James Chisholm
22. Danny Care
23. Jarrod Evans
1. Fin Baxter
2. Jack Walker
3. Titi Lamositele
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Dino Lamb
6. Jack Kenningham
7. Will Evans
8. Alex Dombrandt
9. Will Porter
10. Marcus Smith
11. Cadan Murley
12. Luke Northmore
13. Oscar Beard
14. Rodrigo Isgro
15. Tyrone Green
16. Nathan Jibulu
17. Joe Marler
18. Dillon Lewis
19. Irne Herbst
20. Chandler Cunningham-South
21. James Chisholm
22. Danny Care
23. Jarrod Evans
Quins stronger than expected based on recent injury news. Both teams going with a pair of open sides is interesting and likely makes the break down more vital than usual.
Also a much more dangerous back field than they’ve put out so far this season. Tactical kicking will need to be spot on
Also a much more dangerous back field than they’ve put out so far this season. Tactical kicking will need to be spot on
4 opensides on the pitch, The breakdown will be key for both teams. Could go either way this one.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Good to see Tom Carr-Smith in there. Could be his kind of game. We need to get an early edge in the front 5 to pressure their halves.
Even if we do I expect they will go for all out attack.
PG
Even if we do I expect they will go for all out attack.
PG
Going to be a helluva game.
Quins may just edge it with home advantage but two very strong squads. Can see it being played at a frantic pace for the full 80.
Quins may just edge it with home advantage but two very strong squads. Can see it being played at a frantic pace for the full 80.
Great to have Cokanasiga back, starting to almost resemble our first choice backline.
A surprise inclusion of Richards on the bench (which I'm all for), is he going to be 2nd row cover or will Hill carry on in that position?
Happy to see Carr-Smith get the nod ahead of Schreuder, needs to establish himself as the backup 9 this season.
I wonder if the Pepper/Underhill flanker combo is to try and negate the breakdown threat posed by Quins? Maybe more suited to keeping up with a fast paced game if Quins chuck it around as they like to.
That Quins side does worry me though, getting Green and Dombrandt back is significant, and they've got some handy players coming off the bench. Only potential weakness I can see is at tighthead, Lamositele was hailed as a top draw prop in pre-season, but I haven't seen much to suggest that in the first 4 games, hopefully Obano can get the edge in the scrum.
A surprise inclusion of Richards on the bench (which I'm all for), is he going to be 2nd row cover or will Hill carry on in that position?
Happy to see Carr-Smith get the nod ahead of Schreuder, needs to establish himself as the backup 9 this season.
I wonder if the Pepper/Underhill flanker combo is to try and negate the breakdown threat posed by Quins? Maybe more suited to keeping up with a fast paced game if Quins chuck it around as they like to.
That Quins side does worry me though, getting Green and Dombrandt back is significant, and they've got some handy players coming off the bench. Only potential weakness I can see is at tighthead, Lamositele was hailed as a top draw prop in pre-season, but I haven't seen much to suggest that in the first 4 games, hopefully Obano can get the edge in the scrum.
Quote:copester
4 opensides on the pitch, The breakdown will be key for both teams. Could go either way this one.
Bookies give Bath a v slight edge but nothing in it really [www.oddschecker.com]. The odds for a draw look attractive and we're still joint favourites with Sarries for the title.
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
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My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:18:12:28:36 by Clarkey3k.
Home advantage surely gives Quins a clear edge
I'm comforted by the fact that we could win this but we don't have to. Three away wins is the usual norm isn't it for a top 2 or 3 place provided you win all bar one of your home matches? We've got two and should be able to bank on Falcons away
That's not being complacent or accepting defeat. Just a balanced perspective and intelligent respect for a high quality Quins team and coaching set up
I'm comforted by the fact that we could win this but we don't have to. Three away wins is the usual norm isn't it for a top 2 or 3 place provided you win all bar one of your home matches? We've got two and should be able to bank on Falcons away
That's not being complacent or accepting defeat. Just a balanced perspective and intelligent respect for a high quality Quins team and coaching set up
Quins very clear favourites even though Bath pretty much full strength.
Surprised Coetzee not starting.
Surprised Coetzee not starting.
Don't think we could have put out a stonger team. Do we know who Sir is? (And no, I'm not starting ref bashing early, but we've seen how the way a game is reffed can have a major impact.)
You'd have thought that Quins would be favourites with that team, home advantage and coming off the back of a very impressive win against Saracens last week.
Either way, I'm excited to see how Underhill and Pepper work together.
Either way, I'm excited to see how Underhill and Pepper work together.
Quote:OutsideBath
Quins very clear favourites even though Bath pretty much .
VERY clear favourites???
Quote:by
You'd have thought that Quins would be favourites with that team, home advantage and coming off the back of a very impressive win against Saracens last week.
Either way, I'm excited to see how Underhill and Pepper work together.
They’ve only had a 6 day turnaround & that narrow win against Sarries was only achieved with a sterling defensive effort. I think there should be a touch more optimism about!
Yes, the short turnaround (amongst other factors) seemed to affect us versus Bristol. Potentially a similar away team ambush tomorrow.
Shame the weather looks miserable for SW London tomorrow day. Might dry up prior to kick off but could be tricky conditions. Finn v Marcus could be decided by the one who can put their pack in the right part of the field. I like Porter- but Spencer needs to boss him.
Final note- good to see Emens go again. Butt has been excellent at centre, but I’m glad, despite his inexperience in 15s, a more natural winger is picked. Emens was bit mixed last week but no great surprise on debut in front of the Shed. Looks to have some lovely skills and a real rugby brain. Hope he builds on last week tomorrow.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Shame the weather looks miserable for SW London tomorrow day. Might dry up prior to kick off but could be tricky conditions. Finn v Marcus could be decided by the one who can put their pack in the right part of the field. I like Porter- but Spencer needs to boss him.
Final note- good to see Emens go again. Butt has been excellent at centre, but I’m glad, despite his inexperience in 15s, a more natural winger is picked. Emens was bit mixed last week but no great surprise on debut in front of the Shed. Looks to have some lovely skills and a real rugby brain. Hope he builds on last week tomorrow.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Presumably Butt taking his turn to be rested. He’ll be missed though. Emens looked pretty raw last week, hopefully he can get to the next level.
I wonder if Emens ever came across Isgro on the 7's circuit?
I'm a little worried about either of our wingers having to defend against Murley, need to keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible.
I'm a little worried about either of our wingers having to defend against Murley, need to keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible.
Quote:OutsideBath
Surprised Coetzee not starting.
I'm trusting JvG that he's using Coetzee in exactly the right way and Jaco is fully on board with it
Lots to like about that 23- having moaned a lot last season about the multiple times we made wholesale changes I am pleased so far at the level of rotation, freshening it up each week with a handful of changes.
I think quins put a huge amount physically and emotionally into their game on Sunday so do feel a 6 day turnaround will play a part.
Definitely will watch with some hope.
Oval insights has quins to win by 5 which feels about right due to the home advantage but I definitely think it's a good opp to sneak another away win. Need to start a lot faster than we have in recent weeks!
I think quins put a huge amount physically and emotionally into their game on Sunday so do feel a 6 day turnaround will play a part.
Definitely will watch with some hope.
Oval insights has quins to win by 5 which feels about right due to the home advantage but I definitely think it's a good opp to sneak another away win. Need to start a lot faster than we have in recent weeks!
Emens' biggest problem last week seemed to be his studs! At least it's proper turf this week
Looking forward to a great game two good sides - interesting Danny Care was intimating that following that Sarries game a hell of a lot of the team were suffering.
Come on Bath
Come on Bath
That’s annoying given our early good play
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
That's disappointing given how controlled we were in that long passage of play
Need to hit back quick
Need to hit back quick
We are being very sloppy with our ball retention
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
So once again we have decided to start by constantly shooting our selves in the foot
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Well, here we are again. Making sure we have a lot of work to do to get anything out of this game
Jesus we are so sloppy today
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:A.M 180
Well, here we are again. Making sure we have a lot of work to do to get anything out of this game
Our poor starts this season are definitely because genuine issue
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Really??? Might well be a yc but given Quins about 5 off sides in a row not 5 minutes before
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Get in!! How good is Obano’s throwing
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:19:18:11:32 by Toast and Marmite.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:19:18:11:32 by Toast and Marmite.
In a reasonable position here despite some pretty brain dead stuff.
Let's hope we can be a lot better in the 2nd half for the 3rd week running
Let's hope we can be a lot better in the 2nd half for the 3rd week running
The slow starts must be a cause of concern for JvG and also how easy teams score tries against us.
We need to improve defensively and become hard to beat.
We need to improve defensively and become hard to beat.
Rule makers have todo something about the NFL style guarding of the ball catcher…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Air turning blue in our house
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Not sure we are fully at the races here…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
How is that not a penalty???!!!!
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
What the hell is going on in Pepper’s head today
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
He ha s cost us 10 points this match
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
We really are determined to lose this game, so sloppy 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
That is just ridiculous from Russell frankly
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Leading to a Quins opportunity
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quins have let us off the hook massively in this half. Now make them pay for it, for gods sake
Foley really easy on Quins at scrum time
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
How on earth did we win this?
Nowhere near our best but by god did we guts this out
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Nowhere near our best but by god did we guts this out
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
That is pure mentality
It may not be there at all times in the game, but it's there when it matters
It may not be there at all times in the game, but it's there when it matters
My Hat tips go to Beno, Underhill, Coetzee, Lawrence (as always), De Glanville and Bailey
Quote:A.M 180
My Hat tips go to Beno, Underhill, Coetzee, Lawrence (as always), De Glanville and Bailey
A mention to for Emen’s who came through a real test and looks like a good if raw prospect
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Yep, was great to see players mobbing him after his role in the 3rd tryToast and MarmiteQuote:A.M 180
My Hat tips go to Beno, Underhill, Coetzee, Lawrence (as always), De Glanville and Bailey
A mention to for Emen’s who came through a real test and looks like a good if raw prospect
Really mixed performance, but a fantastic BP away win.
Scrum utterly dominant (bar one scrum) but not fully rewarded.
Quins so many penalty offences in the red zone, often 2 or 3 in the same phase, but no yellow.
Attacking lineouts in their 22 really poor.
Too much kicking.
Some great defence, especially in our 22.
Coetzee excellent and will start next week with Alfie's knock.
Finn's kicking out of hand sub-standard, though really unlucky bouce on one.
Real dog.
Scrum utterly dominant (bar one scrum) but not fully rewarded.
Quins so many penalty offences in the red zone, often 2 or 3 in the same phase, but no yellow.
Attacking lineouts in their 22 really poor.
Too much kicking.
Some great defence, especially in our 22.
Coetzee excellent and will start next week with Alfie's knock.
Finn's kicking out of hand sub-standard, though really unlucky bouce on one.
Real dog.
Surprised by some of the negativity here. This is a tough place to come and we stayed in the fight throughout. Spencer's kicking in the second half was right on the money (frustrating the locals for sure). Bench was truly excellent, Beno throwing in was a highlight and so pleased for Emmens with that 3rd try involvement after a very tough first 40.
Hats off to Quins who play an exciting brand of rugby with Smith very impressive, and the Stoop is a terrific stadium.
Five points is a huge result!
Hats off to Quins who play an exciting brand of rugby with Smith very impressive, and the Stoop is a terrific stadium.
Five points is a huge result!
It was going wrong at times, the yellow cards made it harder but hats off to the players for their resilience and determination to grind out a win. They have a belief that anything is possible, even scoring 2 tries when down to 14. I thought the difference between the sides was our players physical strength, a credit to the strength and conditioning team at Farleigh.
Agreed BathIron
I am pretty happy with that. Even at 14-0 down I could see what we were trying to do & felt if we could just sharpen the execution (we should credit Quins defence for many of our inaccuracies) & stay in the fight, the game was there for the winning.
We did stay in it -hitting back when we had to, scoring a try in each of our yellow card periods & scrapping for loose possession. That eventually brought the win, through sheer dog.
As AM 180 says - pure mentality. We were determined to win or go down fighting and got the reward late on. An attitude that reminds me of the days of Hall, Redman, Barnes & co.
Yes, there are work -ons. Discipline, loose kicking -especially to their back three, uncontested kick offs and a need to get our wingers into space. Hopefully these are on the coaches' notebooks for the coming week.
Second in the table, after a far from perfect performance that still delivered a bonus point win - seems pretty satisfactory to me.
PG
I am pretty happy with that. Even at 14-0 down I could see what we were trying to do & felt if we could just sharpen the execution (we should credit Quins defence for many of our inaccuracies) & stay in the fight, the game was there for the winning.
We did stay in it -hitting back when we had to, scoring a try in each of our yellow card periods & scrapping for loose possession. That eventually brought the win, through sheer dog.
As AM 180 says - pure mentality. We were determined to win or go down fighting and got the reward late on. An attitude that reminds me of the days of Hall, Redman, Barnes & co.
Yes, there are work -ons. Discipline, loose kicking -especially to their back three, uncontested kick offs and a need to get our wingers into space. Hopefully these are on the coaches' notebooks for the coming week.
Second in the table, after a far from perfect performance that still delivered a bonus point win - seems pretty satisfactory to me.
PG
I thought performance wise we were really quite poor- was so error strewn, very inefficient in the red zone and didn't make quins work hard for their points. it's a great result though and shows our mentality.
Today was a really good opp to turn over a team on a 6 day turnaround after a really tough match- we nearly blew it but showed v good compaure to win it at the end.
I judge us harshly as think our squad is ridiculously strong and have an element of expectation rather than hope after the last 18m.
If we can turn over sale next week it's been a seriously good first block.
Today was a really good opp to turn over a team on a 6 day turnaround after a really tough match- we nearly blew it but showed v good compaure to win it at the end.
I judge us harshly as think our squad is ridiculously strong and have an element of expectation rather than hope after the last 18m.
If we can turn over sale next week it's been a seriously good first block.
Not a bad effort from a team which many thought were massive underdogs!
Always enjoy beating Quins. This time was made better by the fact we did it with 14 men for quarter of the match, whereas last season we lost when the authorities ballsed up the yellow card clock and let them have an extra player when they shouldn’t have.
Enjoyable post match interviews with JVG and Underhill. I'm always impressed with JVG's professionalism. Underhill was insightful, he said that they weren't panicking despite being 14 points down and the messages coming on were all around composure and sticking to the game plan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:19:23:08:25 by by.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:19:23:08:25 by by.
To come through a game like that with a win says a lot about where the team has got to. Never felt like we were really winning that game but always did enough to stay in touching distance which means you always give yourself a chance
Coetzee, Lawrence and Ewels all particularly good and thought Bailey looked good off the bench as well considering what was needed at the time
Coetzee, Lawrence and Ewels all particularly good and thought Bailey looked good off the bench as well considering what was needed at the time
Just watched the game. If the definition of a good side is winning while not playing well, then we are becoming a very, very good team. After Briz I had my doubts but I think we are real contenders now. Nothing really clicked today and we still won away at Quins with a bonus point.
My MOTM - Charlie Ewels. When things are not going to plan and your star 10 is kicking the ball dead, you need players like him. I thought he was immense today.
PS For those who are curious about why I have not commented previously this season - I've been freediving with Humpback whales in the (very) South Pacific for a month.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
My MOTM - Charlie Ewels. When things are not going to plan and your star 10 is kicking the ball dead, you need players like him. I thought he was immense today.
PS For those who are curious about why I have not commented previously this season - I've been freediving with Humpback whales in the (very) South Pacific for a month.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Big mentality win. We've struggled against Quins, Bristol, lately Glos when they play with abandon and thought today might be another. Glad I was wrong.
I know what people do when they have the ball gets all the focus and praise but I really thought what Bath did without the ball made the difference and won us the game.
Thought Ewels and Pepper - even if they didn't carry so much and do the glamorous stuff - were vital. Was good to see Sam back and Coetzee (Barbeary in a different way) is just such reliable go-forward ball.
I know what people do when they have the ball gets all the focus and praise but I really thought what Bath did without the ball made the difference and won us the game.
Thought Ewels and Pepper - even if they didn't carry so much and do the glamorous stuff - were vital. Was good to see Sam back and Coetzee (Barbeary in a different way) is just such reliable go-forward ball.
Think beno is playing the best rugby of his life- great comeback from his disappointment in june.
Stuart looked v good at set piece and carrying.
Nice to see some well deserved praise for ewels from commentators and fans.
Coetzee immense off the bench again- become the player I hoped we had signed.
Really chuffed to see richards in the squad- some decent minutes and looked strong. Hope he gets some more chances over the season. Bailey looked classy as well in his cameo.
Scrum was very dominant which i always love to see.
I love finn and you take the rough with the smooth but jeeze some of his kicking from hand has been truly awful. Still love having him in our team tho.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:20:08:25:34 by Charlieboa1.
Stuart looked v good at set piece and carrying.
Nice to see some well deserved praise for ewels from commentators and fans.
Coetzee immense off the bench again- become the player I hoped we had signed.
Really chuffed to see richards in the squad- some decent minutes and looked strong. Hope he gets some more chances over the season. Bailey looked classy as well in his cameo.
Scrum was very dominant which i always love to see.
I love finn and you take the rough with the smooth but jeeze some of his kicking from hand has been truly awful. Still love having him in our team tho.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:20:08:25:34 by Charlieboa1.
The Stoop is a cracking place to come - locals were very friendly and a cracking crowd. Really gutsy win, and as others have said the bench made a big difference. Thought Beno made a big difference to an appalling lineout performance - you really can’t overthrow 2 lineout inside their red zone and expect to win! On the injuries, I managed to speak to both Alfie and Cam at HT. Alfie said he’d been pulled off by (I think) the independent doctor after he apparently staggered following a head knock in a tackle - no HIA at the time, but he felt fine and was confident of passing the post match HIA protocols. Cam said he felt a tight hamstring in the warmup and they thought discretion was the better part of valour given he needs to be available next week as Ollie L isn’t available!
Thanks for the updates 22dropout- sounds encouraging.
Agree that lineout is an issue and overthrows tend to be an issue with throwing (assuming a jumper gets up).
Recurring issue with both our frontline hookers- appreciate it happens to everyone but seems to be happening too much at crucial times this season.
Agree that lineout is an issue and overthrows tend to be an issue with throwing (assuming a jumper gets up).
Recurring issue with both our frontline hookers- appreciate it happens to everyone but seems to be happening too much at crucial times this season.
Thought Quins were big favourites and early comments before I went out suggested this was correct, so to come home to read Bath won was really pleasing.
Good sides do find a way to win when playing poorly so sounds like Bath are becoming a good team.
Still think Bath are conceding too many tries, but hopefully that can be sorted soon.
Good sides do find a way to win when playing poorly so sounds like Bath are becoming a good team.
Still think Bath are conceding too many tries, but hopefully that can be sorted soon.
Quote:Worth noting that only Leicester and Harlequins have conceded fewer tries.OutsideBath
Still think Bath are conceding too many tries, but hopefully that can be sorted soon.
Which doesn't mean we'd like to concede fewer still, but I thought I'd add a little perspective.
I'd also like us to be a bit more clinical and convert more of our try scoring opportunities - despite only Bristol scoring more tries than us.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Alfie's head hit the turf with a bad looking whiplash.
Our defence and then how we turned the screw in the last ten minutes, slowly gaining territory, taking control and exerting our gameplan on them was a joy of nature rugby to watch.
Our defence and then how we turned the screw in the last ten minutes, slowly gaining territory, taking control and exerting our gameplan on them was a joy of nature rugby to watch.
Re-watched it this morning without the emotional anxiety and jeopardy of watching it live. We must consider that Quins were at home buoyant after their display against Saracens with the added bonus of a returning Dombrandt and Green, yet we had over 70% of territory and possession in the first quarter. Despite this, through our own mistakes we conceded 2 tries against the run of play. With Tom Dunne off the field Bath could have been overrun by Quins but the fight and determination to hang in there was outstanding. The players deserve a lot of credit for their efforts and performance to see it through to a albeit, nervous conclusion. Lets have a bit more appreciation, never in doubt!
Thanks for the updates nightmare getting the BBC score updates in France!
It’s getting to the point where if we are in touch with 15 minutes to go I feel fairly confident that we’ll come through.
Our benches now are the strongest I can ever remember.
Another great away result. Just need to get Lawrence contract sorted and a couple more yrs for Coetzee really would be fantastic
Widcombe Garçon
It’s getting to the point where if we are in touch with 15 minutes to go I feel fairly confident that we’ll come through.
Our benches now are the strongest I can ever remember.
Another great away result. Just need to get Lawrence contract sorted and a couple more yrs for Coetzee really would be fantastic
Widcombe Garçon
That was not good for my nerves, but respect to a super team performance. My motm was Jaco, best game in BBW,. An honourable mention to Guy Pepper, YC aside is showing real potential.
Adding a dollop of dog to these boys is making a real difference. COYB
Adding a dollop of dog to these boys is making a real difference. COYB
Quote:joethefanatic
Just watched the game. If the definition of a good side is winning while not playing well, then we are becoming a very, very good team. After Briz I had my doubts but I think we are real contenders now. Nothing really clicked today and we still won away at Quins with a bonus point.
My MOTM - Charlie Ewels. When things are not going to plan and your star 10 is kicking the ball dead, you need players like him. I thought he was immense today.
PS For those who are curious about why I have not commented previously this season - I've been freediving with Humpback whales in the (very) South Pacific for a month.
"It's a hard job, but, someone's got to do it!"
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Kidney Stone
YC aside is showing real potential.
Please clarify?
Yellow card I assume
Think yesterday showed that Pepper isn’t ready yet. Loads of potential but doesn’t quite have the game intelligence yet.
He should have been carded for playing the 9 in the first half, I suspect he was only saved as Dunn was already in the sin bin. It was absolutely mindless.
The penalty which did get him carded, I think could have saved us conceding a try, so it was a smart move but executed so poorly. If you’re going to the bin you need to kill the ball.
He should have been carded for playing the 9 in the first half, I suspect he was only saved as Dunn was already in the sin bin. It was absolutely mindless.
The penalty which did get him carded, I think could have saved us conceding a try, so it was a smart move but executed so poorly. If you’re going to the bin you need to kill the ball.
Started poorly, played 20mins with 14, star fly-half had an off day and still beat a very, very good Quins team away from home.
Had Jaco as my Motm but Lawrence was immense. Ewels and Obano too.
Still don't understand why we're made to play without our England stars next week. Hopefully it won't prove as costly as Bris last season. Suppose Sale will be in the same boat (if not worse off).
Had Jaco as my Motm but Lawrence was immense. Ewels and Obano too.
Still don't understand why we're made to play without our England stars next week. Hopefully it won't prove as costly as Bris last season. Suppose Sale will be in the same boat (if not worse off).
Underhill did something as stupid as Pepper v Bris- and he’s played 40 ish times for England. Brain fades happen.
I think yesterday, again, confirmed Pepper’s huge potential versus some very effective breakdown specialists.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
I think yesterday, again, confirmed Pepper’s huge potential versus some very effective breakdown specialists.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:Becaus the first Autum international is on 2nd of November, and RFU pay the clubs £33M per year to get access to the players for 1 week beforehand (and the week before the 6N, and the rest weeks during the 6N).Barfboy
Still don't understand why we're made to play without our England stars next week.
But don't worry, it's only been happening for 16 years now (IIRC), it can take a while to notice these thigns.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Becaus the first Autum international is on 2nd of November, and RFU pay the clubs £33M per year to get access to the players for 1 week beforehand (and the week before the 6N, and the rest weeks during the 6N).Barfboy
Still don't understand why we're made to play without our England stars next week.
But don't worry, it's only been happening for 16 years now (IIRC), it can take a while to notice these thigns.
Yes, and nothing's happened in domestic rugby recently to potentially change that, has it? And just because it's been happening for 16 years, we can never consider change?
Last season England internationals were available for all but one fixture. Talking one week here. It damages Prem Rugby credibility/product, IMV.
IIRC, you were the one who took umbridge the last time I raised the issue, so prob best to leave it there and not detract from the thread.
Quote:Mike the TaxiQuote:joethefanatic
Just watched the game. If the definition of a good side is winning while not playing well, then we are becoming a very, very good team. After Briz I had my doubts but I think we are real contenders now. Nothing really clicked today and we still won away at Quins with a bonus point.
My MOTM - Charlie Ewels. When things are not going to plan and your star 10 is kicking the ball dead, you need players like him. I thought he was immense today.
PS For those who are curious about why I have not commented previously this season - I've been freediving with Humpback whales in the (very) South Pacific for a month.
"It's a hard job, but, someone's got to do it!"
"I do it so you don't have to." You are very welcome
Its all reasonably calm until you make the rookie error of getting between a mother and her calf. The sight of a 40 ton, 50ft animal looming up out of the depths straight towards you, while Thibault the whale guide shouts, "Maman is coming, be carefool" is a sobering one. The image is etched in my mind (as is the adrenaline fuelled finning needed to get out of the way in time).
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:20:21:37:50 by joethefanatic.
Quote:BarfboyQuote:Which TylerQuote:Becaus the first Autum international is on 2nd of November, and RFU pay the clubs £33M per year to get access to the players for 1 week beforehand (and the week before the 6N, and the rest weeks during the 6N).Barfboy
Still don't understand why we're made to play without our England stars next week.
But don't worry, it's only been happening for 16 years now (IIRC), it can take a while to notice these thigns.
Yes, and nothing's happened in domestic rugby recently to potentially change that, has it? And just because it's been happening for 16 years, we can never consider change?
Last season England internationals were available for all but one fixture. Talking one week here. It damages Prem Rugby credibility/product, IMV.
IIRC, you were the one who took umbridge the last time I raised the issue, so prob best to leave it there and not detract from the thread.
No problem with disagreeing, or wanting something changed. But you said that you didn't understand - the problem is the lying / gaslighting.
If you mean "I dont like that the England players go to Engoand camps a week before the England matches" then say that. It's really not hard. We can then discuss that, rather than this pretence that you don't understand something, and need it explaining.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Never ceased to be amazed by the ability of folk on this forum to read colloquialisms literally while liberally using colloquialisms themselves. Probably do it myself.
Think it's a fair question though. Why is it more games this season? (Yes, you don't have to explain there was a World Cup and no AIs). You could delay the entire season and have one clash and yet given Ais we lose a week (and, again, yes I know it is the prep week rather than a match). Why not just start the Prem a week earlier? If welfare is the priority, why not remove the playoffs?
And I'm one of a minority that actually like that you have to utilise squad depth for a limited number of matches (or match).
Think it's a fair question though. Why is it more games this season? (Yes, you don't have to explain there was a World Cup and no AIs). You could delay the entire season and have one clash and yet given Ais we lose a week (and, again, yes I know it is the prep week rather than a match). Why not just start the Prem a week earlier? If welfare is the priority, why not remove the playoffs?
And I'm one of a minority that actually like that you have to utilise squad depth for a limited number of matches (or match).
Quote:The Bear
Never ceased to be amazed by the ability of folk on this forum to read colloquialisms literally while liberally using colloquialisms themselves. Probably do it myself.
Think it's a fair question though. Why is it more games this season? (Yes, you don't have to explain there was a World Cup and no AIs). You could delay the entire season and have one clash and yet given Ais we lose a week (and, again, yes I know it is the prep week rather than a match). Why not just start the Prem a week earlier? If welfare is the priority, why not remove the playoffs?
And I'm one of a minority that actually like that you have to utilise squad depth for a limited number of matches (or match).
Which colloquialism?
Quote:Maeght
Which colloquialism?
I assume 'I don't understand'? (I took 'I freedived with a humpback whale' as literal).
I noted the comment about 'star fly half had an off day' - I thought he had a really solid match personally, threw some lovely passes / mis-passes.
It's such a joy to see the team not suffering when the bench players come on - in certain positions it could be argued that it gets stronger (du Toit / Ted etc?). Such a luxury.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:21:08:03:50 by BathMatt53.
Quote:The Bear
And I'm one of a minority that actually like that you have to utilise squad depth for a limited number of matches (or match).
Same here if its vaguely equitable with your opponents (sale this weekend fine, bris last season not great)
Excited that we could see likes of sela, richards, TCS, hennesey in the 23.
I would like to see Orlando start at flyhalf........I think we would all be pleasantly surprised!
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
I would like to see Orlando start at flyhalf........I think we would all be pleasantly surprised!
Not this weekend though as we’ll be missing Spencer.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:BarfboyQuote:Which TylerQuote:Becaus the first Autum international is on 2nd of November, and RFU pay the clubs £33M per year to get access to the players for 1 week beforehand (and the week before the 6N, and the rest weeks during the 6N).Barfboy
Still don't understand why we're made to play without our England stars next week.
But don't worry, it's only been happening for 16 years now (IIRC), it can take a while to notice these thigns.
Yes, and nothing's happened in domestic rugby recently to potentially change that, has it? And just because it's been happening for 16 years, we can never consider change?
Last season England internationals were available for all but one fixture. Talking one week here. It damages Prem Rugby credibility/product, IMV.
IIRC, you were the one who took umbridge the last time I raised the issue, so prob best to leave it there and not detract from the thread.
No problem with disagreeing, or wanting something changed. But you said that you didn't understand - the problem is the lying / gaslighting.
If you mean "I dont like that the England players go to Engoand camps a week before the England matches" then say that. It's really not hard. We can then discuss that, rather than this pretence that you don't understand something, and need it explaining.
OK mate, think I'll leave it there with you rather than be accused of lying and entering into online arguments with strangers.
Just making the point - which Bear seems to get - that this could be eradicated fairly easily. Have the RFU/PR ever discussed this particular issue? The amount of times I've had to explain this to non-rugby folk (yes, normally football fans) and am met with a blank expression is ridiculous.
Successful teams have long been punished for having international players (it was rarely "equitable" in the good old days when we had a bigger league). Point is - and always was - it's now a solitary week. If it's down to that, find a way to scrap it so we don't lose players to a training camp.
Finally, perhaps saying Finn had an off day was a tad harsh. His kicking out of hand was pretty poor though and I'd say he was definitely outshone by Smith.
The England squad have gone into camp 2 weeks before the first autumn international, not one.
They also had a 3 day camp the week before last causing disruption to league game preparations.
The league season didn't start until late September this year, so could easily have been brought forward a week to avoid the clash this weekend. Historical, the season starts on the first Saturday in September.
They also had a 3 day camp the week before last causing disruption to league game preparations.
The league season didn't start until late September this year, so could easily have been brought forward a week to avoid the clash this weekend. Historical, the season starts on the first Saturday in September.
Quote:Barfboy
Last season England internationals were available for all but one fixture.
England players missed the first 3 rounds of the league last season, many were then rested in either R4 or R5 and they were in camp for the Round before the 6Ns.
I don’t like League matches happening without the Internationals especially with a reduced sized league but not sure how you arrange the calendar to enable it without impacting Player Welfare.
Plus then players are limited to 30 games a season anyway.
Quote:Dorset Boy
The England squad have gone into camp 2 weeks before the first autumn international, not one.
They also had a 3 day camp the week before last causing disruption to league game preparations.
The league season didn't start until late September this year, so could easily have been brought forward a week to avoid the clash this weekend. Historical, the season starts on the first Saturday in September.
Wouldn’t starting the league a week earlier impact those internationals players on rest after Summer Tours? Making them ineligible for R1 or no pre-season game?
Quote:Which Tyler
But you said that you didn't understand - the problem is the lying / gaslighting.
Unnecessary.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:tigersimonQuote:Barfboy
Last season England internationals were available for all but one fixture.
England players missed the first 3 rounds of the league last season, many were then rested in either R4 or R5 and they were in camp for the Round before the 6Ns.
I don’t like League matches happening without the Internationals especially with a reduced sized league but not sure how you arrange the calendar to enable it without impacting Player Welfare.
Plus then players are limited to 30 games a season anyway.
Cut down the number of international friendlies would be a good start. Won’t happen though and club fans have to suck up the one sided agreement the RFU has with the clubs.
Quote:Outside
Cut down the number of international friendlies would be a good start.
People do understand that a significant part of the £33m we get from the RFU is paid for through these friendlies? The rest comes from the non-friendly games (that is the 6 nations). Is it really worth us (and every other club) racking, let's be conservative, another £1m debt a year to get rid of these friendless? It just doesn't grasp the financial reality of the situation we're in.
Or is it that you feel the £33m isn't enough? The RFU have about £4m left over once they've put the money that Twickenham has made them back into the game. So, maybe, they could give the clubs that £4m, but they've got significant liabilities as well not to mention the need to reinvest in that cash cow of a stadium. I don't think there is that much spare.
All in all the deal seems a pretty good compromise, their aren't enough weekends in the season, and not one I mind that much as it means we HAVE to have the next generation in place to play in these games.
There are two key points from Dan makes here - we don't want more debt and it does mean teams have to bring on the next generation to cover these weekends. Both seem sensible reasons for not keeping the internationals as they are. It's surely a good thing playing against the Southern Hemisphere teams fairly regularly, after all, they do usually knock Northern teams out of World Cups and would be even more likely to if that was the only time we played them outside of summer tours.
Agree with Dorset Boy's comment about the season needing to start a couple of weeks earlier to accommodate this properly. I guess at least with the smaller league at the moment, most of the league is affected to some extent (Newcastle v Gloucester was a canny bit of scheduling!), probably more evenly than when a bigger league might have 1 club with 1 international going against another with several.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Agree with Dorset Boy's comment about the season needing to start a couple of weeks earlier to accommodate this properly. I guess at least with the smaller league at the moment, most of the league is affected to some extent (Newcastle v Gloucester was a canny bit of scheduling!), probably more evenly than when a bigger league might have 1 club with 1 international going against another with several.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Starting the league earlier then means more players from the Summer tours won’t be available for the early rounds plus those players still only have 30 games a season.
What I would like to see is England rotating a little bit more but this is less likely once the Enhanced EPS contracts are signed!
What I would like to see is England rotating a little bit more but this is less likely once the Enhanced EPS contracts are signed!
Didn't last season start late due to the World Cup (which should be played a month earlier than it is).
That also meant last season finished late, even with a smaller league.
That meant the summer tours were later.
And so this season started later.
And next summer is a Lions tour, so longer than normal summer tours.
There should be no reason not to start next season a week earlier, and avoid the clash that this weekend will see.
And the same should then apply next year.
That also meant last season finished late, even with a smaller league.
That meant the summer tours were later.
And so this season started later.
And next summer is a Lions tour, so longer than normal summer tours.
There should be no reason not to start next season a week earlier, and avoid the clash that this weekend will see.
And the same should then apply next year.
I don't see how you avoid some overlap, I think it's about 56 weeks of season. However you schedule it if doesn't fit.
[quote BucksBBandW] Both seem sensible reasons for not keeping the internationals as they are.
Whoops, that sentence shouldn't have had the word 'not' in it!
I'm sure there's always been grumbling about internationals and I'm sure there always will be. I think one of the positives from this season has been seeing the depth of squad Bath have and players like Bailey and TCS are only going to get better if they have game time in big fixtures. I'll take all that back if we lose 3 tightheads to the internationals though!
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Whoops, that sentence shouldn't have had the word 'not' in it!
I'm sure there's always been grumbling about internationals and I'm sure there always will be. I think one of the positives from this season has been seeing the depth of squad Bath have and players like Bailey and TCS are only going to get better if they have game time in big fixtures. I'll take all that back if we lose 3 tightheads to the internationals though!
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
I watched the extended highlights last night. Van Wyk being up and out in the wide channel in support of de Glanville coming in off his wing for the critical late, late score was seriously impressive
And then the composure and discipline at the last scrum to retrieve what could have been a fatal fumble from Coetzee was the next big thing - that is the kind of thing for me that stands out as different to last season
And then the composure and discipline at the last scrum to retrieve what could have been a fatal fumble from Coetzee was the next big thing - that is the kind of thing for me that stands out as different to last season
I will admit that the knock on in the 79th minute made my heart sink. Coetzee had an outstanding game, but that could have been incredibly costly (especially given the scrum looked to be a bit of a lottery at that point).
I had a flashback to the Leicester home game last season, where having kicked a 78th minute penalty to go 1 point up, from the resulting kick off Jaco dropped the ball, Tigers won a scrum penalty, and Shillcock stuck the knife in
I had a flashback to the Leicester home game last season, where having kicked a 78th minute penalty to go 1 point up, from the resulting kick off Jaco dropped the ball, Tigers won a scrum penalty, and Shillcock stuck the knife in
I spoke to a member of the Bath backroom staff and he says that Bath view No 8 in the same way that they view props; in that they view 40-50 minutes as the optimum workload. In this respect then I think this shows what a performance Coetzee put in.
Well Jaco will be starting this weekend...
Barbeary confirmed out with whiplash
More concerning is de Glanville and Redpath are still doubts
Barbeary confirmed out with whiplash
More concerning is de Glanville and Redpath are still doubts
Those backline injuries just keep on coming.
To me this feels like the time to introduce Hennessey. He's stood out in the preseason/Bath United games he's played in, and ultimately if we don't blood him at some point he'll be tempted back over the border.
To me this feels like the time to introduce Hennessey. He's stood out in the preseason/Bath United games he's played in, and ultimately if we don't blood him at some point he'll be tempted back over the border.
Looking forward Sir is Karl Dickson
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Is it just me, or is Karl improving a little?
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:dr.bath1865
Is it just me, or is Karl improving a little?
It's you.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Yeah, saw that they've given the whistle to Mr 4th Grade ref.
drBath - if he is improving it is because he couldn't get any worse.
Let's hope he listens to his ARs and the TMO and doesn't act with his normal 'I know best' arrogance.
drBath - if he is improving it is because he couldn't get any worse.
Let's hope he listens to his ARs and the TMO and doesn't act with his normal 'I know best' arrogance.
I'm not sure where all this ref bashing is coming from tbh, and it's not consistent with any rugby values that I was brought up with. The guy hasn't even reffed the match yet and he's already getting disrespected. I think it's a bit weird and if I heard the kids I coach slagging off a ref like this they would be on the whistle with the under 9s at the weekend.
I suspect that it's probably jealousy in his case - he played at the top level in the English game (169 times at Quins and suspect would have been more if not behind Care) and is now one of the 10 or so pro refs in England. Every single one of his matches will get reviewed and he keeps getting the top jobs. He will know all the Laws significantly better than any casual fan.
(...and no I'm not his mum).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I suspect that it's probably jealousy in his case - he played at the top level in the English game (169 times at Quins and suspect would have been more if not behind Care) and is now one of the 10 or so pro refs in England. Every single one of his matches will get reviewed and he keeps getting the top jobs. He will know all the Laws significantly better than any casual fan.
(...and no I'm not his mum).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I'm not sure where all this ref bashing is coming from tbh, and it's not consistent with any rugby values that I was brought up with. The guy hasn't even reffed the match yet and he's already getting disrespected. I think it's a bit weird and if I heard the kids I coach slagging off a ref like this they would be on the whistle with the under 9s at the weekend.
I suspect that it's probably jealousy in his case - he played at the top level in the English game (169 times at Quins and suspect would have been more if not behind Care) and is now one of the 10 or so pro refs in England. Every single one of his matches will get reviewed and he keeps getting the top jobs. He will know all the Laws significantly better than any casual fan.
High levels of applause for this comment.
A youth team I was coaching recently had opposition supporters shouting Ref abuse. I tried to remind them of "Rugby Values", but it seemed to go over their heads!
I still believe these values to be important...
I suspect that it's probably jealousy in his case - he played at the top level in the English game (169 times at Quins and suspect would have been more if not behind Care) and is now one of the 10 or so pro refs in England. Every single one of his matches will get reviewed and he keeps getting the top jobs. He will know all the Laws significantly better than any casual fan.
High levels of applause for this comment.
A youth team I was coaching recently had opposition supporters shouting Ref abuse. I tried to remind them of "Rugby Values", but it seemed to go over their heads!
I still believe these values to be important...
I agree Matt, I was going to ask something along the lines of exactly what it is that makes him such a poor ref? As you say it won't be his knowledge of the laws. No ref applies the laws 100%, I still contend that's a good thing, but whatever you feel its a fact they don't. So they are going apply the laws differently to your expectation, that's assuming you have a 100% understanding of the laws, which I find unlikely. There is a reference to acting with "'I know best' arrogance." I mean he's the ref right? I still feel that Luke Pearce reffed us in a way that suited Briz and not us. I don't think that was poor reffing as such, but almost every game seems to have periods when the ref feels like they are on one side or the other, but that's every ref.
I've heard consistency called out before, a ref making one decision in one circumstance and a different one in another. There's so rarely the same circumstances happening in one game that you just can't make those judgments. Just to illustrate, you could easily see two breakdowns, in one case the ref penalises for holding, the other he penalises the other team or even penalises no one. Clearly inconsistent? It depends on the action of the tackler, if he doesn't roll away the ref may well penalise his team, he may let things flow a bit more and say "because the tackler did roll away, the attacking support player couldn't clear out, so the carrier was left holding on. I could penalise the tackler, but the attack have got nice clean ball so let's watch a minute of ruby rather than someone thinking about a kick at goal."
Of course I'll be fuming at Dickson come Monday, but probably unjustly and I would like people criticising him to really nail down what he's done wrong when they do.
Arrgghh... I wasn't going to say anything.
I've heard consistency called out before, a ref making one decision in one circumstance and a different one in another. There's so rarely the same circumstances happening in one game that you just can't make those judgments. Just to illustrate, you could easily see two breakdowns, in one case the ref penalises for holding, the other he penalises the other team or even penalises no one. Clearly inconsistent? It depends on the action of the tackler, if he doesn't roll away the ref may well penalise his team, he may let things flow a bit more and say "because the tackler did roll away, the attacking support player couldn't clear out, so the carrier was left holding on. I could penalise the tackler, but the attack have got nice clean ball so let's watch a minute of ruby rather than someone thinking about a kick at goal."
Of course I'll be fuming at Dickson come Monday, but probably unjustly and I would like people criticising him to really nail down what he's done wrong when they do.
Arrgghh... I wasn't going to say anything.
Dickson is a professional referee. His position is barely comparable to an U9s ref.
He has regularly made glaring errors whilst officiating, either when in the middle or acting as TMO. He is widely considered by fans as the worst professional English referee around. He has spent the last few years refereeing with a huge amount of arrogance, dismissing input from the rest of his officiating team.
He has been promoted beyond his ability, and numerous heads have shaken in utter bewilderment regarding his appointment to some matches instead of other far better referees.
It matters not who he is reffing, ask fans across all clubs and the view is the same.
Top level sport is entertainment for which people pay a lot of money. Those who pay are entitled to express their opinion.
He has regularly made glaring errors whilst officiating, either when in the middle or acting as TMO. He is widely considered by fans as the worst professional English referee around. He has spent the last few years refereeing with a huge amount of arrogance, dismissing input from the rest of his officiating team.
He has been promoted beyond his ability, and numerous heads have shaken in utter bewilderment regarding his appointment to some matches instead of other far better referees.
It matters not who he is reffing, ask fans across all clubs and the view is the same.
Top level sport is entertainment for which people pay a lot of money. Those who pay are entitled to express their opinion.
I promise you I could pull apart the performance of every professional referee given a law book, a play back of the game and plenty of time. I don't think its enough to "ask fans across all clubs" if this sort of chat is going on, slating him without point to tangible examples, "fans across all clubs" will parrot that he's a terrible ref. As I say, find explicit things that he's getting wrong that other refs aren't.
I'm more concerned about a ref who changes his mind about a decision because the TMO or whoever saw it differently but can't categorically show its different. I find that happens at least as often if not more. At the end of the day they are in charge.
I don't really buy this "he's an ex-player so they (who?) want him to succeed and promote him beyond his ability." Even if you could identify who would be motivated and in a position to do that it doesn't pass the foil hat test. It just sounds like a conspiracy theory.
I don't think he's the best ref in the prem, he probably is towards one of the less good ones. But I suspect if we actually got down to it what this comes down to it he's there or there about, there probably aren't better refs waiting in the wings and what we're really objecting to here is him the making the mistakes that all refs make coupled with an attitude that grates a bit.
As an aside, attitude like this are what cause people to leave or never go into reffing so, in that regard, we've got the refs we deserve. Pretty much at all levels I'd say.
I'm more concerned about a ref who changes his mind about a decision because the TMO or whoever saw it differently but can't categorically show its different. I find that happens at least as often if not more. At the end of the day they are in charge.
I don't really buy this "he's an ex-player so they (who?) want him to succeed and promote him beyond his ability." Even if you could identify who would be motivated and in a position to do that it doesn't pass the foil hat test. It just sounds like a conspiracy theory.
I don't think he's the best ref in the prem, he probably is towards one of the less good ones. But I suspect if we actually got down to it what this comes down to it he's there or there about, there probably aren't better refs waiting in the wings and what we're really objecting to here is him the making the mistakes that all refs make coupled with an attitude that grates a bit.
As an aside, attitude like this are what cause people to leave or never go into reffing so, in that regard, we've got the refs we deserve. Pretty much at all levels I'd say.
well Dan, either you haven't watched any matches where Dickson has been in charge over the last 4 years or so, or your standards are very low.
Lots of fans watch a lot of rugby, some have even held a whistle occassionally. They generally have a pretty good idea of the refs who are good and those who are not. Sadly KD gets noticed a lot. That is not a good sign.
Lots of fans watch a lot of rugby, some have even held a whistle occassionally. They generally have a pretty good idea of the refs who are good and those who are not. Sadly KD gets noticed a lot. That is not a good sign.
Quote:Dorset Boy
well Dan, either you haven't watched any matches where Dickson has been in charge over the last 4 years or so, or your standards are very low.
Lots of fans watch a lot of rugby, some have even held a whistle occassionally. They generally have a pretty good idea of the refs who are good and those who are not. Sadly KD gets noticed a lot. That is not a good sign.
..and yet the Pro ref bodies and overseers worldwide think that his reffing is on point. He literally referees some of the biggest games in the world. The evidence in terms of technical ability is absolutely clear.
My personal view / experience is that lots of fans have virtually no idea when it comes to Laws and reffing.
In any event, I think that slagging off referees for no particular reason (just a general 'dislike') is a bit unsavoury - and a dangerous road.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I'm pretty sure I've watched him plenty of times, usually I don't take too much notice of who is reffing too much. I do recall at least one occasion when I explicitly remember him having a bad day, in my opinion. I can certainly say the same of the likes of Wayne Barnes and Nigel Owens and I'd say I generally feel like the likes of: Maxwell-Keys, Pearce, Foley, Carley, Tempest and Ridley ALL have poor days in anecdotally similar numbers to Dickson. Where the first two stood out is in their communication and clarity with the players, and in the latter's case an ability to ref the game in front of him rather than the lawbook. As I say, I don't usually pay too much attention to the refs name and so the other refs simply haven't registered with me that much.
We all complain about refs, I think I did after the Briz game. What strikes me about this is its all "everyone knows" without specific details. How has he already ruined the game this weekend for example?
We all complain about refs, I think I did after the Briz game. What strikes me about this is its all "everyone knows" without specific details. How has he already ruined the game this weekend for example?
All fair points Matt & Dan.
Personally, I am not a fan of his style of refereeing and have had issue with many of his decisions in the past, but he has not yet blown Saturday's starting whistle.
Let's see how he goes.
PG
Personally, I am not a fan of his style of refereeing and have had issue with many of his decisions in the past, but he has not yet blown Saturday's starting whistle.
Let's see how he goes.
PG
Since Barnes and Owen’s retired the upcoming refs haven’t stepped up to their standard of officiating . Those we now have are all pretty much as good/bad as one another.
As for the criticism of Dickson for Saturday, it’s probably just a case of getting the excuses in early for a possible loss.
As for the criticism of Dickson for Saturday, it’s probably just a case of getting the excuses in early for a possible loss.
Quote:Dan Wiley
I still feel that Luke Pearce reffed us in a way that suited Briz and not us.
When are you thinking of Dan?
The most recent Bath v Briz match was officiated by Christophe Ridley.
PG
Quote:OutsideBath
Since Barnes and Owen’s retired the upcoming refs haven’t stepped up to their standard of officiating . Those we now have are all pretty much as good/bad as one another.
I think that those two improved massively with experience, as you would expect I guess. Same with Carley (who was not a popular figure on these boards!). The next generation will do the same, I'm sure.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
Since Barnes and Owen’s retired the upcoming refs haven’t stepped up to their standard of officiating . Those we now have are all pretty much as good/bad as one another.
I think that those two improved massively with experience, as you would expect I guess. Same with Carley (who was not a popular figure on these boards!). The next generation will do the same, I'm sure.
Agree Carley was unpopular and at the time I thought he wasn’t up to the job. He’s now a very good official, although for some reason doesn’t seem to be given as many high profile fixtures as Dickson.
I think Dickson's communication is really very good. The problem, if such it be, is that he makes up his mind very quickly and then won't change it if he's wrong. Of course, being the ref, he cannot (by definition) be wrong but it's a bit galling when the mistake is obvious. Nige was similar but Dickson doesn't have his charm.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Tigers and Saints fans used to hate having WB, he definitely got better over time.
NO always communicated wonderfully with the players, ‘it’s not football’!
I am not KD’s biggest fan but the PRL/RFU do shoot themselves in the foot appointing him to referee Harlequins.
IMHO LP is no 1 nowadays with MC no 2.
I like the way Sara Cox referees the game but she doesn’t get many Premiership games.
NO always communicated wonderfully with the players, ‘it’s not football’!
I am not KD’s biggest fan but the PRL/RFU do shoot themselves in the foot appointing him to referee Harlequins.
IMHO LP is no 1 nowadays with MC no 2.
I like the way Sara Cox referees the game but she doesn’t get many Premiership games.
Quote:Widcombe boy
Thanks for the updates nightmare getting the BBC score updates in France!
It’s getting to the point where if we are in touch with 15 minutes to go I feel fairly confident that we’ll come through.
Our benches now are the strongest I can ever remember.
Another great away result. Just need to get Lawrence contract sorted and a couple more yrs for Coetzee really would be fantastic
Also in France WG, down in the Tarn region enjoying the sunshine, but I have listened live to every game on BBC Bristol or 5Extra. I have even listened back to Quins game again this evening, so you can listen later as live if busy. Get yourself a VPN and sign in to a UK IP address before logging into BBC sounds. Job done.
VftN.
Quote:OutsideBath
He’s now a very good official, although for some reason doesn’t seem to be given as many high profile fixtures as Dickson.
Trying to understand what the refs assessors are looking for is a futile game.
Couldn't pick a number one. Might have been Luke Pearce before he decided entertainment trumped integrity in the Sarries-Saints game (which luckily didn't end up accounting to much).
I think they're all of a similar standard but there's almost subtle biases - which can make games feel quite different.
I think much of the impression of a ref is how well, or how annoyingly, they interact with players. Probably difference between assessors and fans too.
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