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As this Liifeline is spelt with 3 eyes I'll wait to see it it with my Two..

The only way prem clubs allow this to happen is with a drawbridge designed to keep prem 2 from swapping places.They want feeder clubs and an insurmountable gap, not competition.

Prem 2 only works with fluidity between leagues and several strong contenders, and there are few of the latter and no cash. The prem will insist on P shares and protect their positions, naturally enough.

So it won't happen.

The only thing that might happen is a Falcons or whoever go under- and if they continue to do an impression of Welsh they will die because economics will strangle them without new investment, and that then hits everyone's finances. A weakened prem may allow the rfu to step in and get their way.

I doubt we will see Wasps again in an English competition.

There are the haves and the have nots, the P shares effectively create an apartheid already. I can’t see the current Prem clubs letting anyone else into their cabal, and Prem 2 will get significantly less funding - with the RFU stipulating this and that and the other, giving woolly promises about more funding based on lies.

I think if we see Wasps again it will be in cross border competition. That is only a slim chance.

Perhaps with rfu blessing, who might see it as a long term way to wrestle back control if it is successful. For example, a Wasps enters the current URC. Rfu divvy out a hybrid contract or two give it their blessing but only with total control over players and an ability to place young talent as they wish. Condition of entry is putting country first.

Another opportunity arises for an English place. Rfu also give it blessing, in exchange for more control. Slowly but surely English players come under more rfu control, prem is sidelined. Rfu end up with 4-6 franchise clubs in a Euro ish league, but they have total control this time.
Whether that would happen, who knows. But you can see the rfu thinking it.

I thought that readers on this forum might be interested to see the response to these proposals from the Championship clubs.

Posted: 22nd December 2023

Statement on behalf of the Championship Clubs

The RFU did not inform Championship clubs in advance of publication of the comments that the CEO and others chose to give to the press last week about our collective discussions over the future of the second tier. The game will also have seen the Funding and Growth strategy document which was sent to our clubs and the Council a few days ago containing certain conditional proposals.

We wish to respond on a number of matters.

First, we share the RFU’s desire to build a competitive and valuable second tier with all the ambition you need in a sporting competition. That is not possible for as long as Premiership Rugby Ltd and the RFU choose to maintain the current barriers to entry, which by necessity leaves the Championship as the top of the competitive pyramid in English rugby.

Second, the significant underinvestment in our league over recent times – central funding cut by 75% with no prospect of meaningful improvement – has left us self-reliant, self-funded and self-sustaining. This is the overall backdrop.

The RFU has now chosen to criticise our attitude to their flawed proposals, which we do not believe represent a whole-game solution. Not only do we need a whole-game solution, but we need a whole-game response to the proposals laid out by the RFU, so in the New Year we will be making our views on the details – as far as we can ascertain them – of the Premiership II plan.

For now, we would like to repeat what we said on November 17, that the Championship clubs are not interested in a league that follows a franchise or selection-based model.

That means a league in which clubs are chosen to be part of a new tier two because of a commercial, geographic or financial consideration, rather than gaining membership by virtue of promotion and relegation. Meritocracy is a longstanding principle of rugby in this country, even if franchises might work elsewhere and in other sports. Basing entry to Tier 2 on minimum operating standards or on the perceived importance of their “brand”, rather than merit, would deprioritise the quality of rugby, of coaching and player development in Tier 2 at a time when Tier 1 is already cutting squads back.

However, we fully support the research going on to identify ambition in other parts of the country to assist in growing the game.

We share the RFU’s view that a second tier must be viable and of the highest possible standard. This requires continual improvements over time on and off the field, but the critical point, which the RFU knows, is that these improvements have to be developed and paid for. Unfortunately, while so little funding is allocated towards the second tier in general, our attitude has to be progressive and clubs need time to build a business plan. We have constantly urged earlier disclosure of funding plans to allow time for our clubs to plan with confidence.

We commit totally to an effective player development pathway when PRL and RFU have decided, with us, what they really mean by that. Discussions are ongoing. Gametime and vital life experience is achieved for our young players by meaningful contracts and time spent with our clubs. Our value over the last years is undeniable, with more than 100 International recognitions for players who have been part of the Championship.

Unlike the RFU, we believe that the Championship under our amended proposals is a wholly investible proposition. Indeed, collectively the current clubs’ benefactors have invested some £200 million since this league first came into being. We accept that it would be even more investible if the RFU had not cut funding levels so deeply during the most difficult period for competitive sports clubs in the modern era. They have failed by their own admission to commercialise our business. Now that, at our request, we have been given those rights to exploit, we can try to build separate revenue streams.

Governance of Tier Two is a key consideration here at a time when the whole Union is to be reviewed and upgraded following independent analysis. A joint venture with the RFU is the most appropriate at this time while understandably PRL ensures its own fitness for purpose. This does not mean we cannot formally connect to the very top of the game over time in this area.

A key point is that our clubs have very strong rugby DNA. We believe in that heritage as a force for the future and so do dozens of other clubs in leagues below the Championship who aspire to the top. We are committed to working with the RFU to find ways of preserving that DNA – all that is best about the sport we love – while continuing the vitally important work of creating a strong and sustainable second tier for the good of the whole game.

Our objectives are common and we agree on so much, but our approach is different and based on decades of rugby and business experience. That demands respect and attention and the RFU Board should engage its full effort in listening to us. The Union was set up to be a guardian of the whole game in this country across all ages and talents. It must now fulfil those responsibilities.

We will have more to say on this early in the New Year.

It's going to get messy isn't it.

It seems to me the Championship Club owners rightly or wrongly only care about themselves and how much funding they can glean from the RFU.

Quote:

coddy
It's going to get messy isn't it.
It seems to me the Championship Club owners rightly or wrongly only care about themselves and how much funding they can glean from the RFU.

Well let's be fair here, they're essentially being blackmailed by sweeney to join up to premiership 2 or have their already meager funding cut. Those owners are the ones keeping those clubs afloat, despite the governing body slicing their funding year on year and showing nothing but disdain and disinterest for the league.

I'm entirely on the championship owners side considering how the rfu are trying to shoehorn this through, asking championship clubs to bid to enter in a franchise model (too bad for those that don't make it) and also trying to parachute the defunct clubs back in on brand name only, when they should be starting from the bottom of the pyramid.

It's all pie in the sky stuff anyway though - wasps have published some nice stadium pictures and a plan for Kent that sounds nice on paper but who knows what the reality is. Is there anyone out there actively looking to revive irish or Worcester (and with a realistic plan to do so?). The idea that those 3 clubs will be back in time for a premiership 2 in 18 months is ridiculous imo.

I suspect this is all just a ploy by the rfu, with the lack of interest from the championship in a franchise system used as as an excuse to finally ring-fence a relaunched premiership 1 once and for all (and with the added bonus for the rfu of getting to cut the championship funding again as a result)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:29:14:17:37 by dawson9.

"It seems to me the Championship Club owners rightly or wrongly only care about themselves and how much funding they can glean from the RFU."

This being the case Coddy old bean, where do you think that the Championship Club owners got the idea from? The Premiership Club owners behaviour over the last 20 or so years perhaps?

Factually, not that you appear to be interested in facts, but most Championship Clubs do not have owners - they are community clubs. Ealing owes its success to the financial backing of Mike Gooley.

The prem owners care about themselves. Championship clubs the same, but have diametrically opposed interests. The current prem clubs want feeder clubs and more TV cash not competition, and see prem 2 as a means to more cash, perhaps.
Championship clubs want more funding and a pathway to promotion, which will happen over prem 1 club's dead corpses, probably starting with Falcons as they are next up the creek and they can't keep losing with a B team and no cash and expect the punters to keep turning up indefinitely. They see prem 2 for what it is- something that will not give them promotion pathways.

Without the three relegated club brands prem 2 is dead. The idea of them starting over from the bottom won't happen and few to perhaps no clubs in the championship can even approach the interest those clubs could generate.

All the prem clubs want is the lost fans back, especially Wasps and Irish who were well supported but well spread, giving good tv figures.

Too many circles to square now.
Another couple of years and the situation might look different when the rfu withdraw all Championship funding and there are a couple fewer prem clubs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:30:23:42:39 by westwaleswasp.

To make Premiership II a viable marketable proposition there needs to be some 'glamour' (for want of a better word). Wasps vs a relegated Premiership I side in a shiny new stadium would sell TV rights better than say, Ampthill vs Caldy - no disrespect to those clubs but it illustrates my point.

However, interest in the sport will only grow (imo) domestically and internationally if there is true meritocracy. Promotion, relegation, and qualification based on sporting ability, not whether you have enough empty seats in your stadium.

Also a level playing field in terms of funding and promotional rights e.g. P shares. Unfortunately like most of us, I remain doubtful this will ever get off the ground.

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westwaleswasp

Without the three relegated club brands prem 2 is dead. The idea of them starting over from the bottom won't happen and few to perhaps no clubs in the championship can even approach the interest those clubs could generate.

All the prem clubs want is the lost fans back, especially Wasps and Irish who were well supported but well spread, giving good tv figures.

Too many circles to square now.
Another couple of years and the situation might look different when the rfu withdraw all Championship funding and there are a couple fewer prem clubs.

My where to start, at the bottom may be appropriate, the RFU have withdrawn support for the Championship and National leagues already, they no longer offer anything to grass roots rugby, just the pro game, they might actually be in breach of their commitments to the game, litigation is a possibility it seems.
Wasps and Irish were not well supported, which is why the cash flow dried up as neither were living within their means.
The arrogance to state that no other clubs could be up to Premiership standards is mind bending, when the PRL remove the barriers, there are clubs waiting in the wings to try and achieve their goal, promotion on the field of play by results.
Oh and I understand London Irish fans are supporting the Wild Geese which could well see them rise into the National leagues and back to where they can sustain themselves as a proud rugby club, you know like others who are working their way back up the leagues as per the rules the RFU used to enforce but mysteriously seem to have forgotten.

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tigerburnie

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westwaleswasp

Without the three relegated club brands prem 2 is dead. The idea of them starting over from the bottom won't happen and few to perhaps no clubs in the championship can even approach the interest those clubs could generate.

All the prem clubs want is the lost fans back, especially Wasps and Irish who were well supported but well spread, giving good tv figures.

Too many circles to square now.
Another couple of years and the situation might look different when the rfu withdraw all Championship funding and there are a couple fewer prem clubs.

My where to start, at the bottom may be appropriate, the RFU have withdrawn support for the Championship and National leagues already, they no longer offer anything to grass roots rugby, just the pro game, they might actually be in breach of their commitments to the game, litigation is a possibility it seems.
Wasps and Irish were not well supported, which is why the cash flow dried up as neither were living within their means.
The arrogance to state that no other clubs could be up to Premiership standards is mind bending, when the PRL remove the barriers, there are clubs waiting in the wings to try and achieve their goal, promotion on the field of play by results.
Oh and I understand London Irish fans are supporting the Wild Geese which could well see them rise into the National leagues and back to where they can sustain themselves as a proud rugby club, you know like others who are working their way back up the leagues as per the rules the RFU used to enforce but mysteriously seem to have forgotten.

Not bad from a supporter of multiple cheats.

I think if you close enough all the pro clubs have done more than just bend the rules, it was wrong, I hope Wasps fans can get behind a new Wasps that follows the rules and runs it's self properly, you fans were treated appallingly by the clubs former owners, the bond holders acted in good faith and I see that Richadson is now trying in the courts to get his money back, didn't see any mention of getting the fans theirs back though.

FYI there are potential buyers for LI who would like to resurrect the club, but can't be named by the Administrators.
There are many barriers, such as agreement with RFU, PRL, and then payment of Rugby Creditors, the P-Shares, as well as issues of a ground, etc... but someone is interested.

Quote:

Gaz
To make Premiership II a viable marketable proposition there needs to be some 'glamour' (for want of a better word). Wasps vs a relegated Premiership I side in a shiny new stadium would sell TV rights better than say, Ampthill vs Caldy - no disrespect to those clubs but it illustrates my point.
However, interest in the sport will only grow (imo) domestically and internationally if there is true meritocracy. Promotion, relegation, and qualification based on sporting ability, not whether you have enough empty seats in your stadium.

“No offence to Ampthill and Caldy”, two teams who actually earned the right to be in the second tier.

Why not open PII with Wasps vs Coventry at Twickenham and invite all the creditors for a free day out? That would fill the stadium. That’s assuming Cov haven’t been promoted, of course.

I think a little bit more humility would not go amiss.

Quote:

colourbloke

Quote:

Gaz
To make Premiership II a viable marketable proposition there needs to be some 'glamour' (for want of a better word). Wasps vs a relegated Premiership I side in a shiny new stadium would sell TV rights better than say, Ampthill vs Caldy - no disrespect to those clubs but it illustrates my point.
However, interest in the sport will only grow (imo) domestically and internationally if there is true meritocracy. Promotion, relegation, and qualification based on sporting ability, not whether you have enough empty seats in your stadium.

“No offence to Ampthill and Caldy”, two teams who actually earned the right to be in the second tier.

Why not open PII with Wasps vs Coventry at Twickenham and invite all the creditors for a free day out? That would fill the stadium. That’s assuming Cov haven’t been promoted, of course.

I think a little bit more humility would not go amiss.

You’re right, my bad. I was clumsily trying post an alternative perspective that might explain some of the aims of the proposal - I believe sport should be a pure meritocracy so agree with the Championship statement.

You can be sure there is no arrogance on my part, FWIW Wasps died on the day they moved to Coventry, I have very little interest in rugby at the moment (just moved on to other interests), but if I fancy catching a game a some point, Ampthill are my most local club and I will go one day.

Quote:

tigerburnie

Quote:

westwaleswasp

Without the three relegated club brands prem 2 is dead. The idea of them starting over from the bottom won't happen and few to perhaps no clubs in the championship can even approach the interest those clubs could generate.

All the prem clubs want is the lost fans back, especially Wasps and Irish who were well supported but well spread, giving good tv figures.

Too many circles to square now.
Another couple of years and the situation might look different when the rfu withdraw all Championship funding and there are a couple fewer prem clubs.

My where to start, at the bottom may be appropriate, the RFU have withdrawn support for the Championship and National leagues already, they no longer offer anything to grass roots rugby, just the pro game, they might actually be in breach of their commitments to the game, litigation is a possibility it seems.
Wasps and Irish were not well supported, which is why the cash flow dried up as neither were living within their means.
The arrogance to state that no other clubs could be up to Premiership standards is mind bending, when the PRL remove the barriers, there are clubs waiting in the wings to try and achieve their goal, promotion on the field of play by results.
Oh and I understand London Irish fans are supporting the Wild Geese which could well see them rise into the National leagues and back to where they can sustain themselves as a proud rugby club, you know like others who are working their way back up the leagues as per the rules the RFU used to enforce but mysteriously seem to have forgotten.

I refer you to the championship club's statement last month
Their funding has been, in their words, cut.
Not reduced. Cut. Below that was not germane to what I said, grass roots and up to championship was not what I was talking about. They are still giving some funding to championship clubs, thus they can cut it further to put more pressure on. It is down to a paltry figure now, but it can be reduced to zero.

Wasps were well supported. So were Irish. Both clubs had very wide support. This is a concept you have difficulty with, but as a provincial type I will explain. If that sounds arrogant- , I am speaking the language Tigers supporters like you understand. If that sounds unkind, ditto, most clubs were quite kind to us when we went under. Tigers fans lived down to expectations, probably still bitter about scrums from twenty years ago. Hey ho, you lost and deserved to. And yes, I really did read comments about scrums being uncontested on your site when we went bankrupt. 160 jobs lost overnight, players scattered and comments about scrums from twenty years ago.

The two clubs had lots of supporters who watched on TV, because they didn’t live near the ground, so they weren't at it, they were watching on TV. Partly because the clubs moved, partly because Wasps weren't especially geographic in identity and Irish had both ex pats identity as well as local identity, local being both London and Reading. It is why they appeared on TV a fair chunk. You might have noticed how often clubs appear varies. Newcastle fans complain about it as they get shafted by it. TV viewing figures relate to the fixtures chosen.


The number of TV supporters does not influence whether they live beyond their means. Their expenditure and income does, and income isn't directly correlated to supporter numbers, things like owning the stadium outright are more important.

If Tigers had to take out an extra 35 million loan tomorrow for their current stadium on top of any current debts they might go bust, it wouldn't have anything to do with how many people watch them on TV or in the ground. Having sold our ground in the first place for the QPR ground share we were already on a path to where we ended up.

I didn’t refer or imply anything about other clubs being up to prem standards. Reading the words explains the words. I will let you work out what few to perhaps no clubs in the championship can even approach the interest those clubs could generate. means. It certainly does not refer to premiership standards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:06:11:32:42 by westwaleswasp.

Consistently surprises me how high in their ivory towers certain Tigers fans are. Systematic, calculating and persistent cheating is just written off. Despite our non existence they don’t believe we’ve been punished enough and at the same time they, and the other financial dopers celebrate (and retain) titles won outside of the rules.

Quote:

Gaz
You’re right, my bad. I was clumsily trying post an alternative perspective that might explain some of the aims of the proposal - I believe sport should be a pure meritocracy so agree with the Championship statement.

You can be sure there is no arrogance on my part, FWIW Wasps died on the day they moved to Coventry, I have very little interest in rugby at the moment (just moved on to other interests), but if I fancy catching a game a some point, Ampthill are my most local club and I will go one day.

I’m with you on the “Wasps died when they moved to Cov” comment. As a disgruntled former Wasps ST holder, I was shouted down quite a lot at the time when I dared to suggest the club had sold its soul.

I would’ve been happier to see this great club drop into the Champ 9 years ago, but for many on this forum that was tantamount Wasps dying. Something to this day I still disagree with.

With the RFU’s neglect of those of us in the wider community game and the lack of respect they have for the Championship, I question what their point is anymore.

Apologies for being tetchy before, but the suggestion of parachuting 3 failed clubs/brands as ‘franchises’ into the 2nd tier goes against everything sport in this country stands for. This at a time when English rugby desperately needs all the credibility it can get.

Anyway, off me soapbox.

Its all a TOTAL mess, mainly the fault of the RFU. I cannot see this being resolved properly for years, maybe decades and the loser with be rugby and the supporters.

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westwaleswasp
…partly because Wasps weren't especially geographic in identity…

Apart from being called London Wasps for the 15 years before the move to Coventry

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Wazeroonie

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westwaleswasp
…partly because Wasps weren't especially geographic in identity…

Apart from being called London Wasps for the 15 years before the move to Coventry

So?

Quote:

Shugs
Consistently surprises me how high in their ivory towers certain Tigers fans are. Systematic, calculating and persistent cheating is just written off. Despite our non existence they don’t believe we’ve been punished enough and at the same time they, and the other financial dopers celebrate (and retain) titles won outside of the rules.

Veritable guardians of the game they are, as anybody who's had the pleasure of sitting amongst them at Welford Road knows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:06:18:45:39 by AwayGameWasp.

Quote:

Wazeroonie

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westwaleswasp
…partly because Wasps weren't especially geographic in identity…

Apart from being called London Wasps for the 15 years before the move to Coventry

An attempt to add that identity. Most clubs added an animal to the location. We added a place. One we didn't play in.

Quote:

Shugs
Consistently surprises me how high in their ivory towers certain Tigers fans are. Systematic, calculating and persistent cheating is just written off. Despite our non existence they don’t believe we’ve been punished enough and at the same time they, and the other financial dopers celebrate (and retain) titles won outside of the rules.

Absolutely. The behaviour of Tigers fans has been vile in comparison to their neighbours, Saints, who have been exemplary in showing a modicum of consideration and basic decency, even if they disagreed with the third move into their territory. I had a lot of respect for Tigers set up if not their rugby. That evaporated after we collapsed.

AHH, just like old times, us bickering amongst ourselves and then all turning 9n any interloping tiger. Such sweet memories, we'll be hearing about uncontested scrums next

Quote:

Egret
AHH, just like old times, us bickering amongst ourselves and then all turning 9n any interloping tiger. Such sweet memories, we'll be hearing about uncontested scrums next

Ah so you've read my post on the Tigers board then, nearly posted it here, but it felt to be the wrong place as I would get more purchase from Tigers fans of how "saintly" we are rather than being stung by Wasps........................

To keep our integrity, surely we need to start from the bottom of the pile. Let’s play over the park in Swanley next year and build from there. I’d certainly go and watch.

Quote:

SoncisSidestep
To keep our integrity, surely we need to start from the bottom of the pile. Let’s play over the park in Swanley next year and build from there. I’d certainly go and watch.

Why should we bother with integrity when so many others don't?

Quote:

Egret
AHH, just like old times, us bickering amongst ourselves and then all turning 9n any interloping tiger. Such sweet memories, we'll be hearing about uncontested scrums next

I don't think it was any old interloping Tiger, to be fair.

Also, to be fair, I am struggling to see much bickering, but people have different thresholds.

They still do go on about uncontested scrums. One of the few pleasures left is hearing them moan.
No mentions of salary caps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:08:18:19:09 by westwaleswasp.

No, it’s all good fun.

Quote:

tigerburnie

Quote:

Egret
AHH, just like old times, us bickering amongst ourselves and then all turning 9n any interloping tiger. Such sweet memories, we'll be hearing about uncontested scrums next

Ah so you've read my post on the Tigers board then, nearly posted it here, but it felt to be the wrong place as I would get more purchase from Tigers fans of how "saintly" we are rather than being stung by Wasps........................

You wouldn’t have been stung Burnie. And anyway I’m sure you’d have had a couple of retaliatory bites back at us!

Championship clubs statement today couldn't be any clearer on what's going on.

I said it above - but this is blackmail pure and simple. Rfu and sweeney and his cronies totally unfit for purpose.

Quote:

dawson9
Championship clubs statement today couldn't be any clearer on what's going on.
I said it above - but this is blackmail pure and simple. Rfu and sweeney and his cronies totally unfit for purpose.

+1

The rfu can relegate them.
They can cut their funding- they still have it and thus it can be cut.


Not sure what they can do other than refuse to take part, killing prem 2 but possibly themselves.


Come back in a couple of years. As I hinted at before, all parties might be more willing to work in the best interests of the game after everything has turned brown.

Bill Sweeney seems keen on us moving to Kent which according to him is a good catchment area as he has said today. I get the real impression the RFU would really like us, Worcs & Irish in Prem 2 to give it some commercial clout.

Indeed but persuading the stuck in the mud Championship chairman won't be easy as they just want
the RFU to give them more money for having the same low level of spectator support and non TV exposure

Feels like it's now too late for Wasps to retain support, so it would be a new start. OK Chris Holland is still there but very little connection to the old operation - even the likes of Kenny Logan, Peter Scrivener are old boys from long before Derek Richardson. I'd suspect that many have given up on rugby at club level, a few have switched allegiances whilst some are supporting lower levels instead.

It's not simply a pitch up, debts gone, all the old boys back that some people seem to think (in that Wasps have cheated to be in this position, no punishment etc). They only have a name/badge - not secretly keeping players on the books, ready for a return in Prem2 and instant promotion.