Cardiff Blues
The Greatest Cardiff Born XV
Billy Boston
By cardiffsteve
February 26 2014
Last Thursday's game against Leinster – unusually for a home match this season – wasn't entirely depressing. Mostly because of another encouraging display from Dan Fish.
I like Dan Fish. He's a Cardiff lad who reminds me of Cardiff born backs of a few years back – Ringo, Ford, Saint Michael Rayer and so on. A nice footballer with a bit of cheek. I happen to think we need players like this. Ok, right now we need quite a lot of things. But good Cardiff sides have always had at least one skillful city born and bred type swaggering in the backline.
Which got me to thinking about the finest Cardiff born and bred XV of all. Not the greatest Cardiff XV - that'd involve a few valley boys, a couple of West Walians and the odd Englishman or kiwi. No, the finest players to have been born and bred in the city.
Here it is, fifteen guys Frank Hennessy could have written a song for and probably should:
15. Mike Rayer – There have been other great fullbacks from Cardiff. Jim Sullivan, one of league's greatest ever. Alun Priday, who managed to play for Cardiff 410 times. However, every Cardiff supporter I know thinks of Mike Rayer the same way other people think of Ghandi or the Lord Buddha. He's beyond legendary. The idea of me not picking him is just ridiculous.
14. Billy Boston – There are a number of excellent Cardiff born wings who didn't linger long in the city and moved north to play league. This was true from the earliest days of the game right up to the time of Phil Ford and Gerald Cordle in the 80s. Finest of the lot was Billy Boston of Butetown and CIACs, who went north in 1953. Theres brief footage of him available online. Its like watching Va'inga Tuigamala superimposed into some 1950s rugby league matches. He was a phenomenon, and scored 571 tries in his career. What a shame he never wore blue and black.
13. Gus Risman – Like Billy Boston, Risman never played for Cardiff but probably has a good case for being the finest player the city has ever produced. He left for Salford rugby league at 18 in 1929 and was still playing professional rugby league at 43 in 1954. He briefly returned to union during the war and partnered Bleddyn Williams in the centre. Bleddyn apparently regarded him as the best he'd ever played with. Thats a good enough recommendation.
12. Mark Ring – Centre is maybe the most competitive position in this team. I could have gone for Alex Finlayson, a mainstay of the Cardiff side of the 70s or Harry Bowcott, from the pre war era. Countless others have a good case. And of course theres Dr Jamie Roberts. But this team would just look strange without Mark Ring. After all I began by thinking about cheeky, footballing Cardiffians and you won't find a better example than Mark Ring.
11. Norman Biggs – As with the centres, there is so much competition for places on the wing in this side. But people like Norman Biggs built rugby in Wales and Cardiff in the first place and they deserve to be remembered. He made his debut for Wales at the age of 18 against the first new Zealand touring team in 1888. He helped Cardiff beat the same opposition that year and played in the very first Welsh side to win the Triple Crown, in 1893. For over a century he remained the youngest ever Welsh international. Bizarrely, in 1908, he died from a poison arrow shot in Nairobi.
10. Percy Bush – One of the first outside halves to be deemed a “genius” by the popular press. Bush was at 10 when Wales beat the All Blacks in 1905 and the star of the 1904 British Lions tour. On one occasion he foxed an opponent into not tackling him by stopping in his tracks, holding out his hand and calling “Stop!” before jogging past the confused defender (obviously not the brightest, possibly a Turk). He also cost Cardiff a victory against New Zealand by being a touch too leisurely covering back a kick. If we traced back Mark Ring's genealogy, I wouldn't be surprised if Percy Bush is in there somewhere.
9. Terry Holmes – I'm slightly too young to remember Terry Holmes actually playing. But I cant think of a player treated with more reverence by those who saw him play regularly. They say he was so hard to stop around the fringes that in the early 80s, a Cardiff 5 metre scrum was as good as a guaranteed try. Sounds good to me.
1. John Robins – Another Cardiffian who never actually played for his hometown club. Leaving first for study, then the Navy, then for work, he spent his career playing for English clubs. He scored 36 points for the Lions – all from place kicks (Yes, this was a prop forward. The game was different in the 50s). But he became best known as a coach. Becoming the first (unofficial) coach of the British Lions in 1966.
2. Geoff Beckingham – Played 331 times for Cardiff. In all that time, he managed just one try. All front row forwards should aim for a similar ratio of games to tries scored. The archetypical unsung hero, his contribution to the 1953 Cardiff vs All Blacks game was claimed to have been crucial to Cardiff getting the win.
3. Stan Bowes – An apparently larger than life character who, noted for habitually referring to Newport as “Black and Amber bastards” and being the heart and soul of every team he played in. He anchored the Cardiff scrum for 12 seasons in the 1950s.
4. Ian Robinson – Another one club man, with a career that spanned three decades and 385 matches. Bobby Windsor considered him one of the hardest men he'd played with. This is not praise to be taken lightly. Right now I wish we could clone five or six of him.
5. Peter Goodfellow – Former Captain in the Gurkha regiment who became a Cardiff rugby institution, playing in the back five of the scrum from the end of the war to the early 60s.
6. CD Williams – The man who carried the Olympic torch in 1948 and today the president of Cardiff Athletic Club. Another from the 50's era- probably the Cardiff club's greatest.
8. Sid Judd – Died tragically young at just 30 years of age in 1959. He scored tries for the Cardiff and Wales sides which both beat the All Blacks in 1953. In the short time he had he did more than enough to live forever.
7. Sam Warburton – I appreciate that Tipuric fella has his fans, but few can compete with what Sam Warburton has already achieved in the game. Since he started out with Glamorgan Wanderers at 17, he's looked like a champion. And I imagine he'll continue to look like one for as long as he keeps playing.
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Stumbleupon26/02/2014 02:28
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Nice to see the site back. A lot to talk about in the last week so a shame it went south.
Plus trying to write something on the actual rugby at the moment is a real chore!
Quote:ATTR
I'm aware of that. I also was not being critical. A mere observation, That is all.
Yeah I know, its fine.
I assumed you knew just thought it needed reiterating in case anybody reading the thread fancies contacting admin with a story to put up. It'd be nice to stop that downtime.
There are villages up the valleys who could produce as good a team as this one.
I'm Cadiff born and bred but it's always been a bit of mystery why we don't produce better players. Fish is a St Illtyds boy. I recall back in 50's and 60's St Illtyds were consistently the strongest rugby school in the city at all age groups but apart from Alex Finlayson I can't recall any internationals and he only got a handful of caps.
Any insight into this apparent malaise with Cardiff born players ? - apart from the old claims of bias from chapel- dominated valley and west wales selectors.
Quote:southcoast5
Back to the thread. Great as some of these players were it's not exactly a world class team is it ? For a city of 300k we don't really our weight when it comes to Welsh rugby.
There are villages up the valleys who could produce as good a team as this one.
I'm Cadiff born and bred but it's always been a bit of mystery why we don't produce better players. Fish is a St Illtyds boy. I recall back in 50's and 60's St Illtyds were consistently the strongest rugby school in the city at all age groups but apart from Alex Finlayson I can't recall any internationals and he only got a handful of caps.
Any insight into this apparent malaise with Cardiff born players ? - apart from the old claims of bias from chapel- dominated valley and west wales selectors.
I think that side would be at least as good as a side from any Welsh city or town. I doubt there'd be many english cities of the same sort of size that could boast a similar side.
Although if you selected from a whole area, like say Carmarthenshire, that'd probably have it beat.
Its quite tricky finding top notch forwards, although there are a few there.
The backline however... it was a lot harder to choose.
Also, historically, it seems to me that the better cardiff born players were even more likely to go north to league than players from elsewhere in wales. So, players like Boston and Sullivan never became household names here.
Quote:cardiffsteveQuote:southcoast5
Back to the thread. Great as some of these players were it's not exactly a world class team is it ? For a city of 300k we don't really our weight when it comes to Welsh rugby.
There are villages up the valleys who could produce as good a team as this one.
I'm Cadiff born and bred but it's always been a bit of mystery why we don't produce better players. Fish is a St Illtyds boy. I recall back in 50's and 60's St Illtyds were consistently the strongest rugby school in the city at all age groups but apart from Alex Finlayson I can't recall any internationals and he only got a handful of caps.
Any insight into this apparent malaise with Cardiff born players ? - apart from the old claims of bias from chapel- dominated valley and west wales selectors.
I think that side would be at least as good as a side from any Welsh city or town. I doubt there'd be many english cities of the same sort of size that could boast a similar side.
Although if you selected from a whole area, like say Carmarthenshire, that'd probably have it beat.
Its quite tricky finding top notch forwards, although there are a few there.
The backline however... it was a lot harder to choose.
Also, historically, it seems to me that the better cardiff born players were even more likely to go north to league than players from elsewhere in wales. So, players like Boston and Sullivan never became household names here.
There was another reason why Billy Boston never made it here........
Quote:I think that side would be at least as good as a side from any Welsh city or town. I doubt there'd be many english cities of the same sort of size that could boast a similar side.
Bristol is probably the closest in terms of size and rugby heritage.
Front row, Chilcott, Regan, Hilton ...and there my knowledge of rugby players definitely born in Bristol ends. It's not a bad start though.
In terms of Cardiff born, there is also Richie Collins and John MacGregor Kendall-Carpenter (even if everyone in Cornwall likes to claim he is Cornish), flanker and No. 8 respectively.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:27:15:16:27 by ATTR.
15. Mike Rayer/Paul Rees
14. Adrian Hadley
13. Pat Daniels/Alex Finlayson
12. Mike Murphy/Nick Ward
11. Chris Camilleri/Andrew Yeandle
10. Mark Ring
9. Terry Holmes/David Bishop/Terry Lee
1. Steve Blackmore
2. Jose Souto/Laurence O'Brien
3. Ian Eidman/Bob Newman
4. Ian Robinson/Phil Kallonas
5. Peter Souto/Simon Crothers
6. Tim Crothers/Howard Stone/Owen Golding
7. Richie Collins/Mike Budd
8. Carl Smith
Most of these were regular Cardiff 1st team players,some from the Rags. Also England & Lions international Nigel Redman was born in Cardiff, but never played for us, also rugby league legend Jim Mills so I believe, was in the same Cardiff youth side as Ian Robinson what a pair of beauties these pair would be together in the 2nd row !!
Also CIACS, Wigan, and Great Britain rugby league player David Willicombe, a good mate of my brother who lived in Fairwater.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:27:07:55:59 by Ian Robinson Was Innocent.
True. Rugby in Cardiff probably isnt the traditional number 1 game it is (or was) in other parts of south wales.
But that isnt to say there isnt a tradition of producing great players the city can be proud of. I mean, we provided the captain of the last Lions tour and the Lions player of the series on the tour before that. Its not bad is it?
[quote=capsgon]
There was another reason why Billy Boston never made it here........[/quote]
So they say! But bear in mind he was very young when he left. Who knows what might have happened. He might have forced his way in by being too good to ignore, and what a story that might have been.
[quote=DaveAitch]
Bristol is probably the closest in terms of size and rugby heritage.
Front row, Chilcott, Regan, Hilton ...and there my knowledge of rugby players definitely born in Bristol ends. It's not a bad start though.
In terms of Cardiff born, there is also Richie Collins and John MacGregor Kendall-Carpenter (even if everyone in Cornwall likes to claim he is Cornish), flanker and No. 8 respectively.[/quote]
Yeah I thought of Collins. Did he play for Bristol? Something at the back of my mind tells me he did.
Pretty similar cities Cardiff and Bristol. We even have the same Clarks pies.
[quote sgorpioncaerdyddrob]Adrian Hadley and Dai Young at his best would be up there too. A very interesting article[/quote]
[quote=ATTR]Adolph would be in my list.[/quote]
Dai Young's Aberdare. But Hadley was given due consideration. Most competitive position in this team.
[Quote=Ian Robinson was innocent]I think most of the players listed below were born in Cardiff. They are mostly from my era 70s to 90s. You older lads my be able to correct me if I have got any wrong.
15. Mike Rayer/Paul Rees
14. Adrian Hadley
13. Pat Daniels/Alex Finlayson
12. Mike Murphy/Nick Ward
11. Chris Camilleri/Andrew Yeandle
10. Mark Ring
9. Terry Holmes/David Bishop/Terry Lee
1. Steve Blackmore
2. Jose Souto/Laurence O'Brien
3. Ian Eidman/Bob Newman
4. Ian Robinson/Phil Kallonas
5. Peter Souto/Simon Crothers
6. Tim Crothers/Howard Stone/Owen Golding
7. Richie Collins/Mike Budd
8. Carl Smith
Most of these were regular Cardiff 1st team players,some from the Rags. Also England & Lions international Nigel Redman was born in Cardiff, but never played for us, also rugby league legend Jim Mills so I believe, was in the same Cardiff youth side as Ian Robinson what a pair of beauties these pair would be together in the 2nd row !!
Also CIACS, Wigan, and Great Britain rugby league player David Willicombe, a good mate of my brother who lived in Fairwater.[/quote]
Fair play thats a hell of list. Nigel Walker and the Fords too.
I think Glen Webbe was also a Cardiffian?
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:28:23:22:04 by cardiffsteve.
Quote:Bristol might have the same pies as Cardiff, but I don't think it has the same Brains!cardiffsteve
Pretty similar cities Cardiff and Bristol. We even have the same Clarks pies.
Quote:Looking Richie Collins up on Wiki it's almost a case of "for whom didn't he play". If the list given is correct, he certainly got around:Yeah I thought of Collins. Did he play for Bristol? Something at the back of my mind tells me he did.
Pontypridd RFC
Newport RFC
South Wales Police RFC
Cardiff RFC
Pontypool RFC
Ebbw Vale RFC
Bristol Rugby
Barbarian F.C.
Petrarca
Quote:cardiffsteve
Pretty similar cities Cardiff and Bristol. We even have the same Clarks pies.
You've not eaten a Bristol Clarks pie as opposed to a genuine clarksie then. Not the same at all!
Very inferior to what James Callaghan described in the House of Commons as The Greatest Pie in the world" *
*I made that bit up!
Pretty similar cities Cardiff and Bristol. We even have the same Clarks pies.
[/quote]
You've not eaten a Bristol Clarks pie as opposed to a genuine clarksie then. Not the same at all!
Very inferior to what James Callaghan described in the House of Commons as The Greatest Pie in the world" *
You're not so keen on 'Peter's' then?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:28:22:41:38 by capsgon.
Quote:ATTRQuote:capsgon
You're not so keen on 'Peter's' then?
An abomination!
We're just talking about the pies here, right?
Just checking....
Quote:capsgonQuote:ATTRQuote:capsgon
You're not so keen on 'Peter's' then?
An abomination!
We're just talking about the pies here, right?
Just checking....
The pasties are trash too!
Quote:ATTRQuote:capsgonQuote:ATTRQuote:capsgon
You're not so keen on 'Peter's' then?
An abomination!
We're just talking about the pies here, right?
Just checking....
The pasties are trash too!
Nice, this is how to turn a really interesting thread about the history of Cardiff players, into a piece of s hi t. Well done lads. No wonder a lot of fans have stopped posting on this site. Carry on boys and talk about your pies and pasties.
Quote:Ian Robinson Was InnocentQuote:ATTRQuote:capsgonQuote:ATTRQuote:capsgon
You're not so keen on 'Peter's' then?
An abomination!
We're just talking about the pies here, right?
Just checking....
The pasties are trash too!
Nice, this is how to turn a really interesting thread about the history of Cardiff players, into a piece of s hi t. Well done lads. No wonder a lot of fans have stopped posting on this site. Carry on boys and talk about your pies and pasties.
Get over yourself - and if you really think the last few posts have really been about pies and pasties, then you've missed the point completely
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014:03:01:21:20:33 by capsgon.
Quote:capsgonQuote:Ian Robinson Was InnocentQuote:ATTRQuote:capsgonQuote:ATTRQuote:capsgon
You're not so keen on 'Peter's' then?
An abomination!
We're just talking about the pies here, right?
Just checking....
The pasties are trash too!
Nice, this is how to turn a really interesting thread about the history of Cardiff players, into a piece of s hi t. Well done lads. No wonder a lot of fans have stopped posting on this site. Carry on boys and talk about your pies and pasties.
Get over yourself - and if you really think the last few posts have really been about pies and pasties, then you've missed the point completely
I'm not going to get into an ATTR v Lenny Woodard argument, but come on, Admin has started a great feed, and as you can see from the response, it has gone away from the thread. ATTR once slagged me off for slightly deferring from one thread, but nowhere near as far as this one.
As far as Bristol is concerned my brother was a screw in Bristol, and all his family have lived in Bristol for many years, my wife is Bristolian, all her family live in Bristol, and I have been to the Memorial Ground on many occasions since 1979. It's a sad day to see them moving to Ashton Gate, but I hope it works out, and is not a big flop like our move to CCS. Anyway capsgon you started the defer from the thread, and you are guilty of making me follow suit, all the best pal.
I apologise for helping steer the thread off topic. As Capson says there is, of course, a subtle reference to matter or a CRFC Ltd nature where Pies are concerned.
02/03/2014 14:57
Quote:Cardifflose
Paul Kowlock from Cardiff? If not would put him in that list, legend!
Pretty sure Paul Kawulok is from the Caerphilly area. Fantastic player. Another one I wish we could clone, we could probably use him at the moment.
Quote:Cardifflose
Sedgemore? Fairly sure he was Bridgend
Aberdare comp lad. So I doubt Bridgend.
